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Jumpgate Evolution - put that joystick to use, son.

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Posts

  • ImperfectImperfect Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
  • LouieLouie Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    SkyCaptain wrote: »
    I still think it should have permanent ship loss. :P

    Oh yeah - you should also float in the vastness of space until someone picks up your tranceiver signal and sends a rescue ship to pick you up.

    Should not be more than a few hours to get going again. Any longer and your air runs out so your char dies and you have to start again.

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  • EntaruEntaru Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    Louie wrote: »
    SkyCaptain wrote: »
    I still think it should have permanent ship loss. :P

    Oh yeah - you should also float in the vastness of space until someone picks up your tranceiver signal and sends a rescue ship to pick you up.

    Should not be more than a few hours to get going again. Any longer and your air runs out so your char dies and you have to start again.

    With a 25% chance every 15 minutes that a micro asteroid punctures your air supply killing you instantly.

    Mostly just huntin' monsters.
  • ImperfectImperfect Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    Permanent ship loss is a shorthand for "meaningful PvP combat, typically over territory containing resources made desirable by a healthy and expansive economy, made possible by a consistant flow of goods, deriving from a healthy demand for said goods, through the necessary loss of ships and equipment over time (traditional economy sink)".

    No-one's espousing people should lose their ships because "haw-haw hardcore is the only way 2 play lol," but because we're sick of pointless PvP which basically equates to Quake in a different setting, randomly, with people you don't know, and for no other reason than to increase an internal counter on your character.

  • LouieLouie Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    We know the arguments - they have been made abundantly clear numerous times in this thread.

    The last, and i really mean last thing I wanted to do was spark this debate up again. I was just having some fun.

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  • hazywaterhazywater Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    Louie wrote: »
    We know the arguments - they have been made abundantly clear numerous times in this thread.

    The last, and i really mean last thing I wanted to do was spark this debate up again. I was just having some fun.

    Why not? Its not like there is a vast well of news from Jumpgate to stir up controversy and encourage meaningful discussion.

    I say: Finance the game through microtransactions. Every time you die, you have to buy a new body.

    Hrin - Eve Online
  • DemiurgeDemiurge Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    I guess I'm referring more to the size of the game. Since Jumpgate will be using multiple shard servers instead of one shard they don't need the universe to be as vast as eve or they won't have the players to fill it.

    So instead of it taking hours sometimes to travel across the universe I don't think that will be an issue with jumpgate.

    I could be completely wrong but i get the impression the game will be smaller in that respect to have more player interactions.

    It will be interesting to see regardless.

    Thats something I like about EVE though, the universe is big enough to be meaningful. You set up shop in one end of the world, working for one of the empires but if you want to move into the more lucrative regions they are far enough away that you either need to bring more supplies with you or pay more for your stuff exactly because its remote.

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  • ImperfectImperfect Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    It's a hot-button topic and you just wanted to "poke some fun at it"? And you're surprised when people read your sarcastic reply and don't see it for the funnin' you intended? Come on, this is the internet. You've been around here a while; this ain't your first do-si-do. =)

    Anyway, here's a shot at a productive discussion between the two warring factions in this thread:

    In order to create a sustainable economy, there has to be supply and demand. Supply is easy, plenty of MMOs get that part of crafting right, but demand is where they fuck up. Warcraft is a notable example of this. It's almost impossible difficult to get high-end crafted items (or it was anyway), but once you had it, you had it forever. Which meant there was an insane spike in the price when recipes for new items came out, but it quickly tapered off to the point where turning mats into crafted goods actually LOST you money.

    In order for a recipe to be a sustainable investment, there has to be a fairly constant demand for the item created. If your high-end item degraded over time and broke, and you had to replace it, then making that item can become long-term profitable.

    In Warcraft, there's notably a more reasonable supply and demand in consumables, like food and potions/elixirs. This is because raiding players will purchase and consume these items on a regular basis. (Granted, the fact that professions present such a low opportunity cost that EVERYONE skills them up means that oftentimes you're better selling herbs than potions STILL, but that's just another area where Warcraft fucked up their economc model.) There's a flow to the market, and that can be exploited to create a semi-reasonable long-term profit.

    Jumpgate could conceivably exploit this model. Have special crystals that you fit to your lasers that provide a bonus to your damage, but degrade with use and break when killed. A special fuel for your engines that runs out as you use it, and is consumed in the fiery explosion when you die. Consumables that augment your ship and will be required for high-level missions or fleet battles, but aren't required by all players at all times.

    This still leaves people who wanted to set up shop building guns and ships in the lurch though, since they're "buy one and you're done", the only people who profit on ship- and equipment-building will be those that get there first and exploit the market rush before it tapers off into just the noobs. No ideas on what to do there.

  • AddaAdda Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    Imperfect wrote: »
    No-one's espousing people should lose their ships because "haw-haw hardcore is the only way 2 play lol," but because we're sick of pointless PvP which basically equates to Quake in a different setting, randomly, with people you don't know, and for no other reason than to increase an internal counter on your character.

    But it's ok if you buy a new ship off someone and therefor increase an internal counter on their character instead each time you die? :wink:


    I'd like to see sustainable economies and options for varied player styles (see crafting) but I don't think that perma ship loss is close to the right approach. Now degradable individual ship components akin to armor in SWG, along side repair kits that reduce max durability is closer to a decent compromise.

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  • ImperfectImperfect Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    Adda wrote: »
    Imperfect wrote: »
    No-one's espousing people should lose their ships because "haw-haw hardcore is the only way 2 play lol," but because we're sick of pointless PvP which basically equates to Quake in a different setting, randomly, with people you don't know, and for no other reason than to increase an internal counter on your character.

    But it's ok if you buy a new ship off someone and therefor increase an internal counter on their character instead each time you die? :wink:


    I'd like to see sustainable economies and options for varied player styles (see crafting) but I don't think that perma ship loss is close to the right approach. Now degradable individual ship components akin to armor in SWG, along side repair kits that reduce max durability is closer to a decent compromise.

    You... Wait... What?

    If you buy a new ship off someone else, you're not increasing an internal counter on them (I'm thinking of honour points here - no way to trade them, thus no economy) - you're stimulating the flow of goods and currency, which lends weight to valuable territory that produces these resources, which encourages meaningful player interactions.

    And if you can infinitely repair ships and ship equipment with repair kits, it creates an economy solely in repair kits - effectively parallelling the problem in WoW right now. There's no real trade in equipment, it all happens (in terms of scale anyway) in consumables, and thus there's no real point in crafting equipment unless you're one of the first few people to ride the wave of a new recipe.

    Also, you're pointing to SW:G as a model of a good MMO? Maybe you enjoyed it - and that's cool and all, it had some promise - but it's well-known as being one of the biggest MMO flops around, especially concerning the economy.

  • AddaAdda Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    In my example you are increasing an internal counter that is related to the amount of money not honor they have. It's quite a silly argument as yours was in the first place and I tried to highlight the fact with the little sardonic winking smiley but I think I missed the comedic mark.

    If you read what I said regarding repair kits I mentioned that they would reduce the maximum durability of an item/ship. This would hopefully maintain the market (your primary concern) without alienating people with the extremist and overly hardcore (in my opinion) practice of perma loss on death. Actually I would go as far as to say that this opinion is shared by the majority of gamers as otherwise there would be much greater demand for perma loss features in games and they would likely be more common place already as a result.

    SWG on the whole may have been a flop and I wouldn't be one to argue that point with you depite my apparent 'enjoyment' of the game but I'd like to know where your general consensus on the economy in the game comes from? It was a self sufficient and player maintained open market, care to elaborate on what was unsuccessful about that aspect of the game?

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  • ImperfectImperfect Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    I played SW:G from launch for a while and fell in love with the concept of the trader class - specifically built, seemingly, to take from the crafters and provide to the mission runners. However, the entire upper half of the skilltree was broken from launch and not fixed in the months I stupidly persisted. I admit, I unsubscribed.

    And yet I followed the game and watch report after report about the economy being awful, wildly overpriced basic items (though that might have been due to how stupid armour was in early days), and read article after article like this.

    I stopped following it a few years ago. Is it any better? I don't know, and frankly, it doesn't matter. The economy was properly fucked up from the start, as was the rest of the game, and these days it's just no longer relevant any more. It's a failed experiment populated by die-hards.

    Which rather pisses me off, too. The grand plans they had! The interesting mechanics! The scope! But they shipped it broken and we never got to see what it would have been like if they'd finished it before unleashing it.

    I missed the part about repair kits reducing maximum durability completely. That was totally my bad, and yes, it would do a LOT towards fixing the problems with ships and equipment hanging around forever. Good catch. =)

    I still think you're missing the difference between honour points and gold. Honour points are non-transferable and generated at a constant ratio, regardless of where you go to kill players (well, sort of, but since you can never "hold" a battleground, it doesn't matter). They're not a market commodity, and even the items you purchase with them never see the market. Honour points are a "currency" entirely outside of the market, and in fact they devalue the rest of the market, since you can effectively ignore the market and solely buy your gear with honour.

    Perhaps the disconnect is that I used a poor term. When I say "internal counter", I don't mean "some number in a computer." They're all some number in a computer. But I mean a number that's only valuable to that player. If there's an auction going on for a really cool item and I have 500g, while the guy next to me has 600g, he wields market power over me. Maybe he got that extra 100g because he owns a gold mine that's slightly more productive than mine. So after losing this auction, I go take his gold mine and fortify it, determined to embiggen my place in this world.

    Whereas honour points only matter strictly internally to a character. If I have 500 honour and the guy next to me has 600 honour, well, so what? I can't affect his honour, nor can he affect mine, so as far as meaningful player interactions go, or impetus to do related things, well, we're done.

  • AddaAdda Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    Well therein lies the problem with player run economies (the players.) Nothing a company can do will prevent that problem from happening if a game has an open market and yet still people are saying that this game would be better for being dependent on such an economy.

    Like you said, it's a great social experiment but people on the the internets are often dicks and they will inevitably prevent such simple ideas as a player run market from always working correctly. As for my 2c while playing SWG I had a much more favorable experience with the market than I did playing any conventional MMO's and I found the products/services available for prices I found acceptable and also managed to offload my own products as I pleased.

    Also I don't think you can treat both in game money and honor points as such black and white concepts as they have different levels of importance to different people. Doesn't wow even let you transfer them through the use of tokens or marks of honor now? that muddies the water even more as they become a transferable commodity.

    All in all though I hope you can see why people choose to poke fun at the topic of conversation, it interests me but I still take the piss out of this thread when I refer to it. It rises like a phoenix from the ashes every few weeks to a slew of economy based posts and Skycaptain telling people that perma loss is the only way. Some times people take the bait and it will run for a while but soon enough the thread drifts down to wallow with the free MMO's and player ran server nightmares at the bottom of the subforum. :)

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  • ImperfectImperfect Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    I don't think you can trade marks of honour - those have always been in there. You can trade them to NPCs for more honour, but you can't trade them between players.

    Adda, have you tried Eve? It may not be your cuppa, but the economy there is actually pretty fantastic. And Eve is FULL of internet-dickheads. It can be done! =)

    And yeah, it definitely comes down to "what kind of game are you looking forward to?" There are some people who, well - all they're looking for is a space-shootey MMO where they can get in big awesome battles at the push of a button. And while that's cool-sounding and all, I know that I'm gonna get bored of it in a couple months at best. I'm part of that other group that wants there to be meaning towards battles that extend beyond "well, earned another couple hundred points towards my Gunnery III license," and I'm not put off at the prospect of losing my ship from time to time, or even an entire starbase if that's what it takes to create a viable in-game narrative. (I mean, you'd NEVER get anything as epic as Goonswarm kicking Band of Brothers out of Delve in Warcraft, it's just not even possible.)

    Is my idea better? No, just different. Planetside isn't better than Halo because it takes place on a persistant global stage. I hope eventually Planetside makes SOME of us happy, but I really hope it makes me happy most. =)

  • DelphinidaesDelphinidaes FFXIV: Delphi Kisaragi Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    Basically what I'm looking for is Eve with a different combat mechanic. I love the economy in Eve and the massive universe, the pvp is great, and the fact that pretty much everything outside the npc zone is player run. My only gripe is really the point and wait style of combat.

    I've always felt that if they made the combat more twitch based the game would be the perfect space mmo.

    Just one mans opinion though.

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  • ImperfectImperfect Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    I'm with you. Now it's two men's opinion. =)

  • voodoosporkvoodoospork Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    Three.

    EVE+Twitch=Guaranteed Sub

  • ZzuluZzulu Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    I also agree.


    Eve, but with fun, skill based combat would be the best MMO in the entire world.

    The biggest flaw with EVE is that it just...gets...soooooooo...dddduuuuullllll and sssssssssllllooowwww at times. With bloody realtime dogfighting and actual use of joysticks I could keep myself entertained forever.

    I love space simulator games, and if you take "Space Simulator + Persistant MMO world" it pretty much becomes a dream MMO for me.

    However, EVE showed just how much permanent ship loss (or some sort of material loss) matter in a PvP environment for a space MMO. Here's hoping that these mysterious "revamps" to JGE is actually a very much improved and dynamic PvP system.

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  • AddaAdda Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    Na Imperfect I never really played Eve, I tried the trial before they tidied up the starter experience and me being me, there wasn't anywhere near enough instant gratification to make me continue playing :D

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  • ImperfectImperfect Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    You might want to give it a go again, if it ever interested you at all - the starter experience is LEAGUES better. It's like a different game. Free trial and everything.

    But then again... =)

  • AddaAdda Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    I'm playing Aion at the moment and just started my second year of uni so I can't really commit to another MMO at the moment and I don't like to play them in half measures.

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  • ZzuluZzulu Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    Some new, very pretty screenshots:

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  • GlalGlal Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
  • ImperfectImperfect Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    It was already pretty looking. I want it to be FUN. Where's the new info on that?

    /bitter,jaded

  • ZzuluZzulu Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    2 things will pretty much make this my dreamgame:

    1 - Some sort of item loss on death. Be it money, the ship itself or your precious fancy gadget bits. Why? Well it's already been discussed way too much already.

    2 - Ship customization. I want to be able to paint my ship and put decals on it and a lot of shiny bits.


    That's it. It already got fancy graphics, nice joystick controls, realtime twitch combat and it's located in space so those aspects are already covered.

    Now, make it happen, MMO gods.

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  • ImperfectImperfect Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    Fuck, there's that... other... game... Uhm, the name escapes me, but it's made by the same folks who made Neocron. When you put different modules on your ships in that game, it changes the way the ship looks. I'm kind of keen on it, but they look to be a while out before it's ready.

  • ZzuluZzulu Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    Dark Prophecy yeah. Looking forward to that one too, though it sounds to be a bit of an instanced affair

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  • BasticleBasticle Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
  • WrenWren Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    blacky dark prophecy of evil doom

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  • ZzuluZzulu Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    there will be no special ship customization

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  • EnigEnig a.k.a. Ansatz Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    Zzulu wrote: »
    there will be no special ship customization
    What does that mean exactly? Where did you hear that?

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  • GlalGlal Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    Yeah, googling around for it makes it sound like customization is essentially ship type + gear + faction skins. Shame that, would've been nice to at least have a basic texture+primary/secondary colour type thing going.

  • EnigEnig a.k.a. Ansatz Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    So we're talking visual customization here?

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  • GlalGlal Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    Ride pimping, yes.

  • BasticleBasticle Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    Black Prophecy will let you construct your ship out of tons of different parts so theres that...

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  • BeezelBeezel I have to return some video tapesRegistered User regular
    edited October 2009
    So was this game quietly shelved or what's the deal here?
    I noticed some parts of the official site not working too well or not at all so it got me curious

  • ZzuluZzulu Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    They delayed the game, because they were not satisfied with their PvP system.

    This was said many moons ago though.

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  • Bendery It Like BeckhamBendery It Like Beckham Hopeless Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    I still have the PR manager's personal email card in my wallet. I havn't had a time to shoot her an email. If anyone (Zzulu, I trust you... but anyone will do) would like to write up an Email on behalf of us, the penny-arcade faithful, who are still interested in getting in to the beta. And attempt to establish contact with them and check on their progress, maybe we can even weazle in to the alpha. Who knows.

    All i know is I have the email, and talked with her in length at PaX and she has been waiting to hear from me, I just have not had the time. So if someone wants to take on the responsibility as community rep, lemme know.

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  • JasconiusJasconius sword criminal Flo-ridaRegistered User regular
    edited October 2009
    I think these guys set the world record for most mishandled beta announcement slash PR campaign ever.

  • ImperfectImperfect Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
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