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I gotta do WHAT? [Unlockables in multiplayer games]

mcdermottmcdermott Registered User regular
edited March 2009 in Games and Technology
Are unlockables in multiplayer competitive games a good idea? Bad idea? Annoying as fuck?

From the TF2 thread, a few posts to get us started:


mcdermott wrote:
Sheep wrote: »
Asiina wrote: »
iowa wrote: »
Do we really want to go to town on this unlocker debate? Because anyone familiar with me knows I have no love for Valve and will gladly take them down in the process of showing some people here just how dumb they are, and how dumb this idea of "earning" weapons from achievements is.

i'm trying to understand how only sith and i have taken this stance.

They're trying to get people to play the class more. They can do that by giving goals to work towards and rewards for those goals.

I don't know what's hard to understand about that system.

Don't see the grief either.

None of the weapons are unbalanced as far as I can see, and the old weapons are still readily available. They want people who haven't played the game in a while to come back and get people who have never really played the Scout (like me) to invest some time in the class.

Depending on the situation many of the weapons are unbalanced. If you're on defense on Dustbowl or Gravel Pit, and the other team is running lots of scouts and pyros, you're at a disadvantage without Natascha. If you're short a medic (or he's defending another point) you're at a disadvantage without the Sandvich. And a Kritz+Uber combo or just a Kritz against a rush of light units is definitely better than an Uber.

And that's before you get into the Blutslauger, which I can't remember the last time I saw anybody wielding the Needlegun. EDIT: Check that, yeah I can...last time the unlockables were down and nobody had them. And I was all "why the fuck am I not getting health back when I shoot these fuckers?"

The Pyro I'll agree with, though depending on playstyle the Backburner might benefit a lot of people, to the point that I'd say they're at a disadvantage without it. Oh, and the Axetinguisher, which I can't even imagine bothering to equip the regular Axe ever again.


And the people who have put at least some time into Scout (not that I'm that great at it, but I've got over twenty hours in the class) might be just a little annoyed at having to put more time in doing shit and going out of our way to do shit that we've already done. How many buildings have I destroyed before they were fully built in the past? A lot more than three. I'm sure I've run 25K in that 20+ hours too. And double-jumped a thousand times. And killed 20 enemies while double-jumping. And so on (I can't remember many of them right now). I've probably already "achieved" 16 or so of these before they were achievements.

So, in a week or two when the Scoutsterbation has died down, my team needs one, and I switch to Scout why exactly should I not have the Sandman and FoN already available to me?


mcdermott wrote:
c4tch wrote: »
you are constraining your argument to elements that fall in your favor - which masks how debased your argument is.

Why are you limiting your definition of the absurdity of unlocks just to FPS? why not to all games?

your "argument" is purely opinion driven, and is one that doesn't matter in the face of a system designed to have you earn diversity in your character options.

FPSs are a genre where multiplayer gameplay is primarily limited to direct competition with other players, and in the case of TF2 it is entirely limited to direct competition with other players. And they are a genre where, in the past, the playing field was level aside from player skill.

So in this way I'd say they are unique, or at least different from most other games (unlockable cars in multiplayer racing games were annoying as well).

I'll accept that TF2 is not the only game ever to go this route, but it is the first that I've played. If CoD4 uses unlockables I'd hate that too.

I'll also point out that when I purchased this game this was not the case. And it's not like I can sell it if I decide I don't like it.


So, what do we think?

mcdermott on
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Posts

  • Xenogears of BoreXenogears of Bore Registered User regular
    edited February 2009
    Unlockables are always good.

    3DS CODE: 3093-7068-3576
  • TheCrumblyCrackerTheCrumblyCracker Registered User
    edited February 2009
    I think its fun, it rewards you for playing a class well. Its not like you can't farm them if you are not good enough to get them without cheating. It doesn't hinder game play, it adds new weapons, it keeps the game fun.

  • SheepSheep Registered User, __BANNED USERS regular
    edited February 2009
    Works well in Call of Duty 4. But again, it's easier to unlock extra weapons and stuff in that game.

    QlBGc.jpg
  • ZealotZealot Registered User regular
    edited February 2009
    It's far better than having to pay real money for them.

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  • mcdermottmcdermott Registered User regular
    edited February 2009
    Unlockables are always good.

    The question is whether they are better or worse than just having more options to begin with, particularly in a multiplayer competitive game where they provide one player an advantage over another.

    I agree that the more options the better. If you're saying it's a good idea to create an unlevel playing field by making them take actual work to unlock, I'm going to need to hear a more substantial argument than that.

  • SixfortyfiveSixfortyfive Registered User
    edited February 2009
    Unlockables in multiplayer games are generally bullshit. Fighting games especially, as they force you to waste your time in the tacked-on singeplayer modes before you can play as the characters you already know are there and bought the game for.

    I would not be looking forward to replaying SSE or hundreds of multiplayer matches if my Brawl data is ever erased for one reason or another.

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  • RenzoRenzo Registered User regular
    edited February 2009
    Visible, and even better, usable proof of accomplishment is a good thing. It does make people feel like they are at an unfair disadvantage if they don't have those same abilities. At the same time it reminds those people that the guy shooting at them with the fancy new Rifle 'o Doom is a certified badass.

    I see it the same as I do loot in MMOs. If you do the quest and earn the weapon, you deserve to use it.

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  • mcdermottmcdermott Registered User regular
    edited February 2009
    I think its fun, it rewards you for playing a class well. Its not like you can't farm them if you are not good enough to get them without cheating. It doesn't hinder game play, it adds new weapons, it keeps the game fun.

    The bolded bits seem contradictory. It doesn't reward you for playing a class well if anybody else can just farm them.

    If they're so easily farmed, why bother making them unlockable instead of just giving them out? I do enough pointless shit at my job that pays me.

    Also, I'll point out that I love achievements. Just not unlockables, at least not in games centered around direct competition. If nothing else it would seem silly to give the "better" players (who can get the achievements) an advantage (and having other options is an advantage, even when the weapons themselves are not objectively better) over "worse" players...this would just further the stratification of the playerbase.
    Zealot wrote: »
    It's far better than having to pay real money for them.

    Very, very true.

  • SheepSheep Registered User, __BANNED USERS regular
    edited February 2009
    mcdermott wrote: »
    Unlockables are always good.

    The question is whether they are better or worse than just having more options to begin with, particularly in a multiplayer competitive game where they provide one player an advantage over another.

    I agree that the more options the better. If you're saying it's a good idea to create an unlevel playing field by making them take actual work to unlock, I'm going to need to hear a more substantial argument than that.

    You have to define "unlevel". As mentioned in OP, the fella responding to me stated that a Heavy having the sandvich works well when a medic is gone. But you have to make a sacrifice with the shotgun, thus limiting your ammo. You'll have to make frequent trips back to resupply if all you have is the minigun, so I don't see why making that trip to resupply for health would be any different.

    QlBGc.jpg
  • mcdermottmcdermott Registered User regular
    edited February 2009
    Renzo wrote: »
    Visible, and even better, usable proof of accomplishment is a good thing. It does make people feel like they are at an unfair disadvantage if they don't have those same abilities. At the same time it reminds those people that the guy shooting at them with the fancy new Rifle 'o Doom is a certified badass.

    I see it the same as I do loot in MMOs. If you do the quest and earn the weapon, you deserve to use it.

    You can set players aside in other ways without giving them an actual gameplay advantage...for instance, unlockable costumes or taunts rather than weapons. Besides, the fact that they're dominating you and sitting at the top of the scoreboard by a wide margin should say they're a certified badass.

    Considering all the farming servers out there, the weapon they're carrying doesn't certify shit.

    And I don't play MMOs for a reason. The specific game I'm referring to, TF2, did not have this system when I bought it either.

  • c4tchc4tch Registered User
    edited February 2009
    "i deserve all the unlockable characters in super smash brothers brawl by buying the game"

    bullshit, wrong.

    this "i deserve" mentality in my generation is beyond retarded, and I don't like it.

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  • mcdermottmcdermott Registered User regular
    edited February 2009
    Sheep wrote: »
    You have to define "unlevel". As mentioned in OP, the fella responding to me stated that a Heavy having the sandvich works well when a medic is gone. But you have to make a sacrifice with the shotgun, thus limiting your ammo. You'll have to make frequent trips back to resupply if all you have is the minigun, so I don't see why making that trip to resupply for health would be any different.

    Having options open to respond to varying situations is an advantage. If your team has only one medic, or a bad medic, or that medic is covering a different area then having the Sandvich is definitely outweighed by losing the Shotgun...it provides an advantage.

    Same if you're on defense and the offense is somewhat pyro-heavy...being able to choose Natascha as appropriate provides an advantage. Same for Kritzkreig. Same for Backburner.

    And that's before the Blutslauger or the Melee weapons, most of which are just flat-out better.

  • RenzoRenzo Registered User regular
    edited February 2009
    mcdermott wrote: »
    Renzo wrote: »
    Visible, and even better, usable proof of accomplishment is a good thing. It does make people feel like they are at an unfair disadvantage if they don't have those same abilities. At the same time it reminds those people that the guy shooting at them with the fancy new Rifle 'o Doom is a certified badass.

    I see it the same as I do loot in MMOs. If you do the quest and earn the weapon, you deserve to use it.

    You can set players aside in other ways without giving them an actual gameplay advantage...for instance, unlockable costumes or taunts rather than weapons. Besides, the fact that they're dominating you and sitting at the top of the scoreboard by a wide margin should say they're a certified badass.

    Considering all the farming servers out there, the weapon they're carrying doesn't certify shit.

    And I don't play MMOs for a reason. The specific game I'm referring to, TF2, did not have this system when I bought it either.

    That's a good point you make about the better players getting better weapons. It could quickly become imbalanced. And I haven't played TF2 much, so I don't have that frame of reference. But in Lost Planet, you earn new costumes as you gain rank online. The costume doesn't give you any advantage, but it does serve as a visual indicator of rank. It's about as safe as you can get when it comes to unlockables like this.

    I'm hoping that the unlockables in Killzone 2 don't throw the balance all out of whack.

    FFXIV/Sargatanas/Wintry Ptarmigan
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  • THEPAIN73THEPAIN73 Oathbreaker KingslayerRegistered User regular
    edited February 2009
    A Challenger Appears.

    I love that.

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  • SheepSheep Registered User, __BANNED USERS regular
    edited February 2009
    mcdermott wrote: »
    Having options open to respond to varying situations is an advantage. If your team has only one medic, or a bad medic, or that medic is covering a different area then having the Sandvich is definitely outweighed by losing the Shotgun...it provides an advantage.

    Same if you're on defense and the offense is somewhat pyro-heavy...being able to choose Natascha as appropriate provides an advantage. Same for Kritzkreig. Same for Backburner.

    And that's before the Blutslauger or the Melee weapons, most of which are just flat-out better.

    Of course, but having a bad or incompetent team doesn't mean that unlockables are inherently a bad idea.

    QlBGc.jpg
  • TheCrumblyCrackerTheCrumblyCracker Registered User
    edited February 2009
    mcdermott wrote: »
    I think its fun, it rewards you for playing a class well. Its not like you can't farm them if you are not good enough to get them without cheating. It doesn't hinder game play, it adds new weapons, it keeps the game fun.

    The bolded bits seem contradictory. It doesn't reward you for playing a class well if anybody else can just farm them.

    If they're so easily farmed, why bother making them unlockable instead of just giving them out? I do enough pointless shit at my job that pays me.

    Also, I'll point out that I love achievements. Just not unlockables, at least not in games centered around direct competition. If nothing else it would seem silly to give the "better" players (who can get the achievements) an advantage (and having other options is an advantage, even when the weapons themselves are not objectively better) over "worse" players...this would just further the stratification of the playerbase.
    Zealot wrote: »
    It's far better than having to pay real money for them.

    Very, very true.

    Its your choice. Either be good at the class or farm them. You can get them both ways.

  • Xenogears of BoreXenogears of Bore Registered User regular
    edited February 2009
    Seriously.

    Now I had to redo Melee four times because of lost/stolen/damaged memory cards, and that game is freaking hard to unlock stuff in compared to brawl.

    In Brawl you can literally make 5 second matches or do SSE on ridiculously easy and have it done in a few hours. In Melee the quickest you can unlock everyone is what, 7 or 8 hours?

    Also Perfect Dark. A great multiplayer game with great unlockables.

    3DS CODE: 3093-7068-3576
  • Metal Gear Solid 2 DemoMetal Gear Solid 2 Demo Registered User regular
    edited February 2009
    mcdermott wrote: »
    Sheep wrote: »
    You have to define "unlevel". As mentioned in OP, the fella responding to me stated that a Heavy having the sandvich works well when a medic is gone. But you have to make a sacrifice with the shotgun, thus limiting your ammo. You'll have to make frequent trips back to resupply if all you have is the minigun, so I don't see why making that trip to resupply for health would be any different.

    Having options open to respond to varying situations is an advantage. If your team has only one medic, or a bad medic, or that medic is covering a different area then having the Sandvich is definitely outweighed by losing the Shotgun...it provides an advantage.

    Same if you're on defense and the offense is somewhat pyro-heavy...being able to choose Natascha as appropriate provides an advantage. Same for Kritzkreig. Same for Backburner.

    And that's before the Blutslauger or the Melee weapons, most of which are just flat-out better.

    But lots of the weapons you unlock in TF2 are very situational, as you have pointed out

    They do provide the upper hand in these situations, but are not only in the hands of the people are good, just the people who consistently play that class.

    Valve originally intended these weapons as rewards for people who play certain classes consistently. People with the mentality of "Oh well I'll unlock the weapons then never play the class again" are...ahm..."doing it wrong."

    And none of the achievements in TF2 are hard to get. You can go through the milestones pretty easily, even if you're not trying, if you just play that class a lot

    Spoiler:
  • mcdermottmcdermott Registered User regular
    edited February 2009
    Renzo wrote: »
    That's a good point you make about the better players getting better weapons. It could quickly become imbalanced. And I haven't played TF2 much, so I don't have that frame of reference. But in Lost Planet, you earn new costumes as you gain rank online. The costume doesn't give you any advantage, but it does serve as a visual indicator of rank. It's about as safe as you can get with it comes to unlockables like this.

    I'm hoping that the unlockables in Killzone 2 don't throw the balance all out of whack.

    I'll admit that in TF2 the imbalance is pretty subtle. In fact, it's subtle enough that many claim it's not even there, which says something. But anytime <X> is better in situation <Y>, and I'm in situation <Y> without access to <X>, I'm at a disadvantage.

  • Metal Gear Solid 2 DemoMetal Gear Solid 2 Demo Registered User regular
    edited February 2009
    mcdermott wrote: »
    Renzo wrote: »
    That's a good point you make about the better players getting better weapons. It could quickly become imbalanced. And I haven't played TF2 much, so I don't have that frame of reference. But in Lost Planet, you earn new costumes as you gain rank online. The costume doesn't give you any advantage, but it does serve as a visual indicator of rank. It's about as safe as you can get with it comes to unlockables like this.

    I'm hoping that the unlockables in Killzone 2 don't throw the balance all out of whack.

    I'll admit that in TF2 the imbalance is pretty subtle. In fact, it's subtle enough that many claim it's not even there, which says something. But anytime <X> is better in situation <Y>, and I'm in situation <Y> without access to <X>, I'm at a disadvantage.

    But that doesn't make it imbalanced, because you have counters to that disadvantage, which evens it out
    Not to mention TF2 is a team game, so it's balanced for the team, not 1v1 encounters. Scout vs heavy, you'll ALWAYS be at a disadvantage in terms of damage, health, etc.

    Using starcraft as an example, just because the zealot is better than the zergling does not put you at a disadvantage

    Spoiler:
  • John ZoidbergJohn Zoidberg Registered User regular
    edited February 2009
    First of all, kudos for bringing this discussion out of the TF2 thread. It needed to be done.

    On the subject of unlockables I think CoD4 handled it well. It was all governed by an exp system which any player, regardless of skill will eventually earn. Yes, you earn specific "achievements" but those in turn give an exp bonus, and had no bearing on what was unlocked ( unless you count the golden weapons ).

    TF2 as you know unlocks everything from specific achievements. This system is fine but the specific nature can lead to frustration for people who have no experience with the class. I'm sure the rebuttal will be " they can learn to play that class ". That is true, but it is still an oxymoron ( in my mind ) to offer TF2 at a discount price / updates to attract newcomers and then bombard them with some pretty specific achievements ( some requiring a good knowledge of the class ) for them to earn.

    Xbox Live: Ink Pouch / PSN: Stiff_Ninja / Origin: PAZoidberg / Steam
  • LeitnerLeitner Registered User regular
    edited February 2009
    Aesthetic ones are great, all the others are generally a poor idea at best.

  • DissociaterDissociater Registered User regular
    edited February 2009
    I love unlockables in all games. It's a goal to shoot for, not only while playing, but in the case of single player games, something to do after you've completed the main story arc. One game I've invested more hours in than almost every other game is one that's incredibly simple and not very highly rated: Dynasty Warriors 4. A friend and I played this game for Months, years even, just because there were SO many things that could be unlocked. You leveled up characters, unlocked new weapons, unlocked new combos, etc.

    In the case of multiplayer only unlockables, it's fine unless what you unlock is significantly more powerful than what you started out with. Because I think that might discourage new players if they're constantly getting whomped by people who have already unlocked things that make them more powerful. This not only makes the game less fun for the newbie, but it makes it harder for him to unlock said items just to get on par with those other players. Using TF2 as a specific example, none of the new weapons are really over powered, so I think it's a good thing.

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  • MrMonroeMrMonroe Registered User regular
    edited February 2009
    This worked well in CoD4. It works great in TF2. You could start with nothing and have an enjoyable time, and it was only a matter of getting into the game that would get you on even footing with everyone else.

    It was single-handedly what made me realize I should quit playing WoW.

    Well-balanced awards for accomplishments are one thing. Handing out magical pixie dust that gives you a clear advantage over other players based almost entirely on how many hours per week you play is quite another.

    That said, my sense of accomplishment for having earned my M14 isn't harmed one bit by your having cheated to get yours.

  • Metal Gear Solid 2 DemoMetal Gear Solid 2 Demo Registered User regular
    edited February 2009
    First of all, kudos for bringing this discussion out of the TF2 thread. It needed to be done.

    On the subject of unlockables I think CoD4 handled it well. It was all governed by an exp system which any player, regardless of skill will eventually earn. Yes, you earn specific "achievements" but those in turn give an exp bonus, and had no bearing on what was unlocked ( unless you count the golden weapons ).

    TF2 as you know unlocks everything from specific achievements. This system is fine but the specific nature can lead to frustration for people who have no experience with the class. I'm sure the rebuttal will be " they can learn to play that class ". That is true, but it is still an oxymoron ( in my mind ) to offer TF2 at a discount price / updates to attract newcomers and then bombard them with some pretty specific achievements ( some requiring a good knowledge of the class ) for them to earn.

    This isn't the case at all, the milestones are setup so people can get the needed achievements for the unlock without having to worry about some of the tougher ones

    I've played the scout for about 3 hours total in the past 3 days and have already gained 11 achievements without aiming for any of them

    Spoiler:
  • mcdermottmcdermott Registered User regular
    edited February 2009
    But lots of the weapons you unlock in TF2 are very situational, as you have pointed out

    They do provide the upper hand in these situations, but are not only in the hands of the people are good, just the people who consistently play that class.

    Valve originally intended these weapons as rewards for people who play certain classes consistently. People with the mentality of "Oh well I'll unlock the weapons then never play the class again" are...ahm..."doing it wrong."

    If that was their intent, they failed horribly. Farming and Scoutsterbation (and Pyrobation, and Heavybation) suggest that, even absent outright cheating through an unlocker, these weapons would never have been limited to those that play the class.

    But what about people like me, who play every class (well, except spy) when my team needs one or depending how I feel that day? I've clocked roughly the same number of hours in each class except for Heavy (where I have more) and Spy (which I don't play).

  • klokklok Registered User
    edited February 2009
    Regarding the TF2 achievements, they are fucking stupid. I don't mind unlockables in games but making achievements REQUIRED for unlocking weapons is lame. They could of went the direction of COD and put in a level system or maybe x amount of kills to unlock new weapons but no, double jump one thousand times!

    But meh I don't like the direction they took TF2 in and while I still enjoy playing it and it was definitely worth the pric,. I think it could of been better.

  • NeadenNeaden Registered User regular
    edited February 2009
    Unlockable weapons vaguely annoy me in multiplayer, but not by a huge amount. I agree that unlockable outfits etc. make a whole lot more sense. Unlockable levels/characters/difficulties in a single player game are just really stupid though.

  • PeewiPeewi Registered User regular
    edited February 2009
    When unlockables were first added to TF2, it was pretty bad because most of the Medic achievements are a bit too hard or require lots of grinding and at first all of them were required for the Ubersaw, but as it is now it's not that bad.

    Regardless of whether the game is single or multiplayer, I like unlockables as they award you for doing certain things in the games.

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  • John ZoidbergJohn Zoidberg Registered User regular
    edited February 2009
    First of all, kudos for bringing this discussion out of the TF2 thread. It needed to be done.

    On the subject of unlockables I think CoD4 handled it well. It was all governed by an exp system which any player, regardless of skill will eventually earn. Yes, you earn specific "achievements" but those in turn give an exp bonus, and had no bearing on what was unlocked ( unless you count the golden weapons ).

    TF2 as you know unlocks everything from specific achievements. This system is fine but the specific nature can lead to frustration for people who have no experience with the class. I'm sure the rebuttal will be " they can learn to play that class ". That is true, but it is still an oxymoron ( in my mind ) to offer TF2 at a discount price / updates to attract newcomers and then bombard them with some pretty specific achievements ( some requiring a good knowledge of the class ) for them to earn.

    This isn't the case at all, the milestones are setup so people can get the needed achievements for the unlock without having to worry about some of the tougher ones

    I've played the scout for about 3 hours total in the past 3 days and have already gained 11 achievements without aiming for any of them

    I see your point. I still think it can be a little overwhelming for new people though.

    Xbox Live: Ink Pouch / PSN: Stiff_Ninja / Origin: PAZoidberg / Steam
  • SixfortyfiveSixfortyfive Registered User
    edited February 2009
    In Brawl you can literally make 5 second matches or do SSE on ridiculously easy and have it done in a few hours.
    This is a few hours too many. I'm not playing the game if I'm doing this. I'm grinding. And I have to take my whole console over to a friend's instead of just the game if we want to play the game together without wasting an entire afternoon grinding for characters.

    Art galleries and other superfluous extras are neat rewards in fighters, but not hidden characters. In what universe is it sensible to withhold core content from the player and force him through hours of un-fun nonsense and calling this replay value?

    lol at the earlier "generation" talk. The most I remember having to go through to play as secret characters in the old days were a few button codes or a quick romp through arcade mode.

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  • mcdermottmcdermott Registered User regular
    edited February 2009
    But that doesn't make it imbalanced, because you have counters to that disadvantage, which evens it out
    Not to mention TF2 is a team game, so it's balanced for the team, not 1v1 encounters. Scout vs heavy, you'll ALWAYS be at a disadvantage in terms of damage, health, etc.

    Using starcraft as an example, just because the zealot is better than the zergling does not put you at a disadvantage

    Right, but if one team's Zerglings can do shit that the other team's can't, it may. And in the case of TF2, it arguable does at times.

  • CherrnCherrn Registered User regular
    edited February 2009
    I generally hate unlockables that affect the core game. If you want to add unlockable bonus content, that's fine, but use moderation, and don't make it stupidly difficult. Honestly, I'd prefer it if everything was free to use from the get-go; you don't have to watch a DVD to go straight to the bonus content.

    The main problem, to me, is that you bought the game, so you shouldn't have to go through hoops and loops to view the content on the disc. Metroid Prime 3, for instance, used that abhorrent friend gift system. That sort of thing should not be encouraged, and neither should the unlocking of elements that are crucial to the experience.

    A large amount of the Street Fighter 4 userbase will probably never get to play as Gouken. It's a completely arbitrary decision, and only detracts from the game's online community. Unlocking entire characters in fighting games is a forced sense of progression that doesn't need to be there. SF 4 and Smash Bros. are particularly bad about it.

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  • Metal Gear Solid 2 DemoMetal Gear Solid 2 Demo Registered User regular
    edited February 2009
    mcdermott wrote: »
    But lots of the weapons you unlock in TF2 are very situational, as you have pointed out

    They do provide the upper hand in these situations, but are not only in the hands of the people are good, just the people who consistently play that class.

    Valve originally intended these weapons as rewards for people who play certain classes consistently. People with the mentality of "Oh well I'll unlock the weapons then never play the class again" are...ahm..."doing it wrong."

    If that was their intent, they failed horribly. Farming and Scoutsterbation (and Pyrobation, and Heavybation) suggest that, even absent outright cheating through an unlocker, these weapons would never have been limited to those that play the class.

    But what about people like me, who play every class (well, except spy) when my team needs one or depending how I feel that day? I've clocked roughly the same number of hours in each class except for Heavy (where I have more) and Spy (which I don't play).

    The first part isn't so much a failure on Valve's part, just everyone scrambling to try out something new in the game because they've tried everything else. I've only jumped over to scout because of the achievements and now find myself rather hooked on it, so I'll probably be playing it more in the future

    And in terms of playing a wide variety of classes, you're not opted out of the achievements, you'll still get them, just not as fast as others.
    Right, but if one team's Zerglings can do shit that the other team's can't, it may. And in the case of TF2, it arguable does at times.
    No, because it's well within your ability to gain that "shit" that you can't do in Tf2.

    If you want cases of imbalance, see various versions of Company of Heroes as it went through the patching stages. From overpowered infantry to 1 second artillery that the other side does not have the ability to get themselves

    Spoiler:
  • METAzraeLMETAzraeL Registered User
    edited February 2009
    Seriously.

    Now I had to redo Melee four times because of lost/stolen/damaged memory cards, and that game is freaking hard to unlock stuff in compared to brawl.

    In Brawl you can literally make 5 second matches or do SSE on ridiculously easy and have it done in a few hours. In Melee the quickest you can unlock everyone is what, 7 or 8 hours?

    Also Perfect Dark. A great multiplayer game with great unlockables.
    But what good is having characters be unlocked if all people are going to do is set up matches that run on their own and the only input is hitting start to keep them going? It's great to have stuff to unlock, but does is have to be essential to the game? In a game like Brawl, it only serves to artificially extend the experience, and doesn't have anything to do with people appreciating the game more. It's not like we didn't know who all of the secret characters were before it came out, anyways.


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  • mcdermottmcdermott Registered User regular
    edited February 2009
    Peewi wrote: »
    When unlockables were first added to TF2, it was pretty bad because most of the Medic achievements are a bit too hard or require lots of grinding and at first all of them were required for the Ubersaw, but as it is now it's not that bad.

    Regardless of whether the game is single or multiplayer, I like unlockables as they award you for doing certain things in the games.

    Half the Medic "achievements" could honestly qualify as griefing if attempted in any normal game.

    Personally I think the achievements alone are good enough, which is when when I previously used the unlocker I only unlocked the milestones. I've since gotten most of them for each character.

  • John ZoidbergJohn Zoidberg Registered User regular
    edited February 2009
    Cherrn wrote: »
    Metroid Prime 3, for instance, used that abhorrent friend gift system.

    Much hate was poured from me to that system. I never did get my fucking Mii bobblehead.

    Xbox Live: Ink Pouch / PSN: Stiff_Ninja / Origin: PAZoidberg / Steam
  • Xenogears of BoreXenogears of Bore Registered User regular
    edited February 2009
    In Brawl you can literally make 5 second matches or do SSE on ridiculously easy and have it done in a few hours.
    This is a few hours too many. I'm not playing the game if I'm doing this. I'm grinding. And I have to take my whole console over to a friend's instead of just the game if we want to play the game together without wasting an entire afternoon grinding for characters.

    Art galleries and other superfluous extras are neat rewards in fighters, but not hidden characters. In what universe is it sensible to withhold core content from the player and force him through hours of un-fun nonsense and calling this replay value?

    lol at the earlier "generation" talk. The most I remember having to go through to play as secret characters in the old days were a few button codes or a quick romp through arcade mode.

    Well, I fucking love SSE, so this is a moot point on my part anyways. I play it on Intense or whatever that difficulty is for kicks.

    3DS CODE: 3093-7068-3576
  • Ginger MijangoGinger Mijango Registered User regular
    edited February 2009
    Well, there are things you have to ask, are the unlockables balanced? In the case of TF2 for the most part yes.
    If it's overpowered/underpowered will it be buffed/nerfed? In the case of TF2 for the most part, yes.

    Then i suppose it's down to wether or not you like the method of unlocking, Achievements or XP/levels/ranks.

    Achievements: are they ridiculous? are you going to be able to get them in an hour? is it going to take weeks to get anywhere near an unlock?

    XP: Are the times between levels ridiculously long? How long are you going to have to play to get that super duper magic wand?

    Valve seem to have found a decent balance for the achievements, you can get 10 relatively easily, the next 5 or so you get will be noticebly hard than the 1st 10 and the last 6 or so will be even harder, but no so hard it would take you months

    Some of the point you raise in the OP:
    Some weapons are situational, it's up the persons playing to decide wether or not this situation calls for that weapon, because someone chose correctly in that situation does not make it overpowered, it makes it the right weapon for that situation.
    It's pretty obvious that with the release style Valve have used, 1 class at a time, that class will be swarmed with players, people want to try the new stuff.
    You wait until the Scoutfest dies down, you play Scout, you're without the FAN or the Sandman, you did well enough without them before, why are you entitled to them? because they are there?
    You may well have jumped around 1000 times or ran 25 kilometres, but giving retroactive achievements is nigh on impossible, they can't track every little thing you do in order to give you achievements they haven't even thought of yet.

    Steam | Boycott Edcrab!
  • Xenogears of BoreXenogears of Bore Registered User regular
    edited February 2009
    METAzraeL wrote: »
    Seriously.

    Now I had to redo Melee four times because of lost/stolen/damaged memory cards, and that game is freaking hard to unlock stuff in compared to brawl.

    In Brawl you can literally make 5 second matches or do SSE on ridiculously easy and have it done in a few hours. In Melee the quickest you can unlock everyone is what, 7 or 8 hours?

    Also Perfect Dark. A great multiplayer game with great unlockables.
    But what good is having characters be unlocked if all people are going to do is set up matches that run on their own and the only input is hitting start to keep them going? It's great to have stuff to unlock, but does is have to be essential to the game? In a game like Brawl, it only serves to artificially extend the experience, and doesn't have anything to do with people appreciating the game more. It's not like we didn't know who all of the secret characters were before it came out, anyways.

    That's only for unlocking all the characters, you still need to do some other things to unlock the rest of the stages, and that's not even getting into the games crazy amount of stickers, trophies, songs and achievements.

    3DS CODE: 3093-7068-3576
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