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Suspended from school over faith update

ALockslyALocksly Registered User
edited November 2006 in Debate and/or Discourse
A duck! wrote:

A Duck found this and was kind enough to post it in the [chat] thread but since the origional thread was locked and I know there are others out there seeking closure in this torrid tale I'll just leave this here and walk away.

ALocksly on
Yes,... yes, I agree. It's totally unfair that sober you gets into trouble for things that drunk you did.
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Posts

  • mccmcc glitch Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited November 2006
    Well, let's hope that somehow the legal action thing finds a way to pan out.

  • deowolfdeowolf Registered User regular
    edited November 2006
    Shame.

    [SIGPIC]acocoSig.jpg[/SIGPIC]
  • SamSam Registered User regular
    edited November 2006
    Wow, I don't even know what to believe. He should give that Goldman guy permission to discuss it in detail.

    In general, though, if you're in a small academic institution, or at least one where you deal with the same people continually, the more you get sent to the authorities, the more likely they are to fuck you over the next time, whether or not you deserved it for any of the times.
    He was expelled for being a douche. You don't believe me and you don't want to RTFA? Check the picture, then. The "I want to be Conor Oberst" look.
    :| :lol:

  • AegeriAegeri Registered User regular
    edited November 2006
    Energy level leprechauns.

  • SlandererSlanderer Registered User
    edited November 2006
    I would comment were I able to open that link....

    Midshipman wrote:
    Looks like the Catholic Church would have fired the Virgin Mary if they had been in business back then.
    Hey, if God had sent an angel down to the principal's office that said, "Don't fire the bitch, the big man knocked her up." I am sure he would have given it due consideration.
    Wii Code: 1231 4448 8299 3147 ((Send me a PM and come join the party))
  • MahnmutMahnmut Registered User regular
    edited November 2006
    Cool.

    I hope the ACLU has a field day here. Looks like the actual issue wasn't to do with the discussion for which they expelled him, but it's still seventy-two kinds of unjustified.

    edit: I can't open the Fark comments either. The article fark links is here.

    Steam/LoL: Jericho89
  • deadonthestreetdeadonthestreet Registered User regular
    edited November 2006
    Slanderer wrote:
    I would comment were I able to open that link....
    Same.

    Can we get a copy-paste of the text?

  • Loren MichaelLoren Michael Registered User regular
    edited November 2006
    ehh... fark comments...

    it's lovely how people have conflated "fundamentalist atheists" as being as bad as actual religious fundamentalists. it's a meme that requires no brainpower to accept and pass on, and it just makes so much sense on the surface! they're both annoying! of course they're just as bad!

    2ezikn6.jpg
  • SamSam Registered User regular
    edited November 2006
    Mahnmut wrote:
    Cool.

    I hope the ACLU has a field day here. Looks like the actual issue wasn't to do with the discussion for which they expelled him, but...

    Yeah, schools usually get their decisions airtight when they decide to shaft someone they don't like and end up expelling them for different reasons (usually a bunch of past events chained together)

    It's like how Capone went away for tax evasion.
    Can't he go to a different school or is he pretty much barred admission anywhere now? Will they process transcripts for him?

  • SamSam Registered User regular
    edited November 2006
    Suspension of Disbelief
    Art Student Expelled—For Atheism?
    BY AMY JENNIGES
    Bob Averill's classmates at the Art Institute of Portland had finished up their work in a character development class on November 8, and were chatting to pass the time until class was over. The discussion moved toward spirituality. Averill, a Game Art Design student and a devoted atheist—he even runs a blog called Portland Atheist—sidled over and joined the conversation.

    It was the last time he'd be in an Art Institute class—within two weeks, he was expelled, less than a year before he'd hoped to graduate.

    In the classroom that day, Averill says one young woman was talking about her belief in energy layers and astral beings.

    "I jokingly asked her if she believed in leprechauns. It turns out, she does. They live on another energy layer," Averill wrote in notes to himself later that day. "In the interest of bringing my own view to the discussion, I began to ask her how she knew these things. Again I know all too well that people can be sensitive about their spiritual beliefs, so I was pretty much walking on glass as I did so."

    Averill says he wasn't trying to disprove the other student's religious beliefs, but "to convince her not to insist that they were scientifically proven."

    The student, apparently offended, complained to the teacher. Averill was called into a meeting that evening, he says, with the Art Institute's dean of education, associate dean, and the dean of student affairs.

    According to Averill, he was told the meeting was "because of my altercation with [the other student]." Averill says he pointed out that he'd "only offered a different viewpoint in a discussion that [my classmate] had started."

    "They didn't respond well," Averill told the Mercury. "Their mantra was 'no discussing religion in school,' which is fine except that I did not initiate the conversation, she had." Averill was suspended for four days, until a judicial hearing with the dean of student affairs.

    Immediately after the meeting with the deans, Averill found a classmate who had witnessed the initial conversation, and dragged him to the dean's office. "I thought I could clear this up, this is just a misunderstanding." (The witness did not respond to an inquiry from the Mercury.)

    But the associate dean, Averill says, "told me she didn't want to hear from me again that day. So she reported it to the dean as rude and belligerent behavior."

    At the judicial hearing, on November 17, Dean of Student Affairs Ron Engeldinger was more focused on the "rude and belligerent behavior" report from the associate dean, Averill says, than on the initial conversation about religion.

    Then Engeldinger, he says, brought up the fact that Averill had had some trouble with three instructors in October. "The thing is, I had already had a meeting with the associate dean about [that]. We resolved the issue and I apologized to the professors involved." Averill was surprised that Engeldinger brought it up again.

    "I expressed that I felt discriminated against as an atheist, and he informed me that mine was not a protected class of people," Averill says.

    Averill has since contacted the Oregon chapter of the American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU) and Freedom from Religion Foundation, based in the Midwest. He says the Freedom from Religion Foundation told him to seek legal counsel, and he expects the ACLU will respond to his inquiry within 60 days.

    According to an emailed letter from Engeldinger, Averill had violated the student conduct policy. The decision to dismiss Averill was "not the result of a single action on your part, but a series of actions. I believe that, in several instances, your actions have been aggressive, demeaning, and threatening and that this demonstrates a pattern of inappropriate and unacceptable behavior," Engeldinger wrote.

    The student who complained on November 8 wished to remain anonymous, but her account backs up Engeldinger's letter. Her complaint was not the only reason he was sent into the Dean's office. The teacher even told me that my complaint was the 'last straw' as SEVERAL other complaints were stated before mine."

    However, she says she "did not wish for him to be expelled or get in trouble and I had no idea that it was going to happen until after the fact."

    On Monday morning, November 20, Averill met with the school's president, Dr. Steven Goldman, to appeal his dismissal. "He upheld the dean's decision to throw me out," Averill says. "He offered to re-admit me if I underwent—get this—psychiatric evaluation."

    Goldman declined to discuss specifics without Averill's permission.

    "I can say that we have never suspended or terminated or disciplined or otherwise troubled any student at any time about religious issues. It's never even come up as an issue," says Goldman, who also teaches a comparative religion class at the school. Given the Art Institute's liberal arts curriculum, there is no policy against discussing religion or philosophy, "or any other subject as far as I know. We have an academic community in which people are free to explore ideas."

  • SamSam Registered User regular
    edited November 2006
    It doesn't look good. Looks like they've covered their asses and Bandetta stepped on toes on multiple occasions down the line. It's almost like they've been waiting to kick his ass out. For all we know he could deserve it, but regardless it looks like the school is going to cite other reasons for his expulsion.

  • deadonthestreetdeadonthestreet Registered User regular
    edited November 2006
  • mccmcc glitch Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited November 2006
    it's lovely how people have conflated "fundamentalist atheists" as being as bad as actual religious fundamentalists. it's a meme that requires no brainpower to accept and pass on, and it just makes so much sense on the surface! they're both annoying! of course they're just as bad!
    Well, you are as bad as actual religious fundamentalists.

    But this has nothing to do with victims like Bob Averill/ whatever his nick is on the forum, so fuck off with the oh-pity-me angle.

  • AegeriAegeri Registered User regular
    edited November 2006
    mcc wrote:
    it's lovely how people have conflated "fundamentalist atheists" as being as bad as actual religious fundamentalists. it's a meme that requires no brainpower to accept and pass on, and it just makes so much sense on the surface! they're both annoying! of course they're just as bad!
    Well, you are as bad as actual religious fundamentalists.

    But this has nothing to do with victims like Bob Averill/ whatever his nick is on the forum, so fuck off with the oh-pity-me angle.

    On a related note, I have to wonder if he originally posted at 3drealms' forums a long time ago. If this is the case, I've actually known him for like, ages in that case.

  • Aroused BullAroused Bull Registered User
    edited November 2006
    "I jokingly asked her if she believed in leprechauns. It turns out, she does. They live on another energy layer," Averill wrote in notes to himself later that day.
    Heheh. "Notes to himself".

  • DarkPrimusDarkPrimus Registered User regular
    edited November 2006
    "I jokingly asked her if she believed in leprechauns. It turns out, she does. They live on another energy layer," Averill wrote in notes to himself later that day.
    Heheh. "Notes to himself".

    PA is a poorman's Livejournal.

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    Gamertag: PrimusD | Rock Band DLC | GW:OttW - arrcd | WLD - Thortar
  • AthenorAthenor Registered User regular
    edited November 2006
    I think learning about the previous complaints is the issue. The fact that he injected himself into the debate is kind of troubling to me -- It just seems to me like while he didn't initiate the debate, maybe he was trying to assert some kind of superiority? I could see it being taken that way, at least -- I know that having one's beliefs challenged is a difficult thing (it's why I come here, to challenge my values and beliefs to feel out if they are right or not for me), and I can see issues surrounding this.

    fCew0YJ.jpg
    Steam & NNID - Athenor // 3DS: 3883-5283-0471
  • ZoolanderZoolander Registered User
    edited November 2006
    Well, it's good to hear at least some of the other side of the story. I'd like to know what the previous incident was though.

    He seems a bit of an asshole TBH.

  • HacksawHacksaw J Duggan Wrestler at LawRegistered User regular
    edited November 2006
    Well, this article probably won't do the school any favors. Not that they deserve it, but still.

  • AdrenalineAdrenaline Registered User regular
    edited November 2006
    "I expressed that I felt discriminated against as an atheist, and he informed me that mine was not a protected class of people," Averill says.
    This is fucking bullshit. I don't even know what to say.

    I will show you fear in a handful of dust
  • MahnmutMahnmut Registered User regular
    edited November 2006
    ehh... fark comments...

    it's lovely how people have conflated "fundamentalist atheists" as being as bad as actual religious fundamentalists. it's a meme that requires no brainpower to accept and pass on, and it just makes so much sense on the surface! they're both annoying! of course they're just as bad!

    But you do realize that to people who don't agree with you, this sounds like Bob Evangelical. Muslisms shouldn't spread their filthy lies, but mine are okay because they're the Real Good News! From that perspective, the idea that preaching atheists are just as bad as preaching Christians because they're equally annoying isn't as radically idiotic as you make it sound.

    --

    Our expelled friend was expelled for being a bit of an asshole--it had everything to do with his prior record. Even so, kicking someone out of your school because he has poor social skills, denying him a degree after taking his money for four years? And using Lacy Leprechaun to justify it? I don't know, I just think that it reeks of an obnoxious bureaucracy being rampantly evil.

    edit
    "Why does one need a philosophy or core to be an atheist? Atheism is about lack of belief in mystical gods and whatever, not an alternate belief system. It really shouldn't even have a name IMHO."

    I actually agree with this point. It shouldn't have a name or even exist in the world of religion. But it does, and people use it to attack -or at least challenge- people of any form of faith or belief. If someone is going to use 'atheism' as a basis of challenge, it has to be backed up by something. Otherwise, it's just a word used to prove a point or attack someone, which is ironically the same point the atheists criticize religion for. Many people use athiesm as an anti-religion, a way to spite God and people who believe in God. Many people, if you really get down to the reasoning behind it, don't really disbelieve in God, they're angry at the things they see, and need something to blame. If this was a simple case of not believing in God, you'd never see an atheist calling other people retards.

    psychic pain

    Steam/LoL: Jericho89
  • YarYar Registered User regular
    edited November 2006
    Leprechaun H. Energy-layers, guys! Is it not obvious now this guy is a fucking toolbag?

    Ok, set aside all of the obvious and total bullshit he fed us in the first thread for now, let's just focus on the new info we have:

    1) He was not a part of the conversation originally. He overheard it, and then came over and butted in.

    2) She didn't bring up leprechauns. HE DID. She was talking about astral energy layers or some typical new age stuff, and he said, "Yeah, and I bet you believe in leprechauns, too." Fucking dick.

    3) SEVERAL previous incidents. Several. With three instructors. I can understand that you run into an asshole once or twice. But three instructors and a possibly untold number of other previous incidents, all involving "agressive, demeaning, and threatening" behavior.

    4) It wasn't even the leprechaun girl that the incident was all about. The teacher referred him to the dean because she had received numerous student complaints about him, leprechaun-girl's being only one. Again, after a while the numbers just start to stack against him.

    The guy is a fucking sociopath. He is wormy, coniving asshole with a chip on his shoulder the size of Denver. He is a manipulative, pathological liar. I've now gone a step further in my assessment, and I'm willing to say yes, he deserved to be expelled, and yes, he really needs psychiatric help.

  • A steak!A steak! Super Moderator, Moderator, ClubPA mod
    edited November 2006
    All this and you've never had him on your couch! Just think of what one session with Yar could teach you about yourself, guys!

    Favorite quotes
    Spoiler:
  • CheezyCheezy Registered User regular
    edited November 2006
    Yar wrote:
    Leprechaun H. Energy-layers, guys! Is it not obvious now this guy is a fucking toolbag?

    Ok, set aside all of the obvious and total bullshit he fed us in the first thread for now, let's just focus on the new info we have:

    1) He was not a part of the conversation originally. He overheard it, and then came over and butted in.

    2) She didn't bring up leprechauns. HE DID. She was talking about astral energy layers or some typical new age stuff, and he said, "Yeah, and I bet you believe in leprechauns, too." Fucking dick.

    Didn't he say these in the original post?

    EDIT: I do agree that the post reeks of disingenuousness. "Lean towards the skeptical side" does not mean running a blog dedicated to Dawkins-style atheism.

  • YarYar Registered User regular
    edited November 2006
    Cheezy wrote:
    Didn't he say these in the original post?
    Yeah, the part about him bringing up leprechauns. I just missed it until now. But he very neatly avoided noting how much he went out of his way to make himself a part of this conversation.

    I haven't seen a duck! in Leprechaun knows how long.

  • KazhiimKazhiim __BANNED USERS
    edited November 2006
    The fact that the guy's defense was "she started it first" really puts me off as to whether his summary of what happened is entirely trustworthy

    for all we know, he may have gotten in her face about believing silly shit

    lost_sig2.png
  • CasketCasket __BANNED USERS
    edited November 2006
    Bag of tools, you say?

    casketiisigih1.png
  • edited November 2006
    Yar wrote:
    Leprechaun H. Energy-layers, guys! Is it not obvious now this guy is a fucking toolbag?

    Ok, set aside all of the obvious and total bullshit he fed us in the first thread for now, let's just focus on the new info we have:

    1) He was not a part of the conversation originally. He overheard it, and then came over and butted in.

    2) She didn't bring up leprechauns. HE DID. She was talking about astral energy layers or some typical new age stuff, and he said, "Yeah, and I bet you believe in leprechauns, too." Fucking dick.

    3) SEVERAL previous incidents. Several. With three instructors. I can understand that you run into an asshole once or twice. But three instructors and a possibly untold number of other previous incidents, all involving "agressive, demeaning, and threatening" behavior.

    4) It wasn't even the leprechaun girl that the incident was all about. The teacher referred him to the dean because she had received numerous student complaints about him, leprechaun-girl's being only one. Again, after a while the numbers just start to stack against him.

    The guy is a fucking sociopath. He is wormy, coniving asshole with a chip on his shoulder the size of Denver. He is a manipulative, pathological liar. I've now gone a step further in my assessment, and I'm willing to say yes, he deserved to be expelled, and yes, he really needs psychiatric help.

    Uhh.. oookay..
    :?
    I mean, I agree that his side of the story is all we heard and he never said anything about having other complaints against him but.. uh.. wow.

    Personally, I'd be happy to leave that POS school.

    "...not a protected class.." I mean, seriously.. I'd would've punched that prick in the gut so hard he'd be spitting up blood for weeks. Then again, I do have possible anger issues, heh.

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • YarYar Registered User regular
    edited November 2006
    Kazhiim wrote:
    for all we know, he may have gotten in her face about believing silly shit
    I think that at this point it is abundantly clear that he gets in peoples' faces frequently, and angrily, and she was just one of many. His other main point, that he was "entirely civil" and "exercising great care towards a sensitive subject" is also clearly not true.

    EDIT: forget it, I'm not spending another 30 pages trying to explain it again. Just go read the last few pages of the previous thread.

  • CasketCasket __BANNED USERS
    edited November 2006
    Yar wrote:
    Kazhiim wrote:
    for all we know, he may have gotten in her face about believing silly shit
    I think that at this point it is abundantly clear that he gets in peoples' faces frequently, and angrily, and she was just one of many. His other main point, that he was "entirely civil" and "exercising great care towards a sensitive subject" is also clearly not true.

    I'm pretty certain he's a douche from all that I've heard.

    casketiisigih1.png
  • Loren MichaelLoren Michael Registered User regular
    edited November 2006
    Mahnmut wrote:
    ehh... fark comments...

    it's lovely how people have conflated "fundamentalist atheists" as being as bad as actual religious fundamentalists. it's a meme that requires no brainpower to accept and pass on, and it just makes so much sense on the surface! they're both annoying! of course they're just as bad!

    But you do realize that to people who don't agree with you, this sounds like Bob Evangelical. Muslisms shouldn't spread their filthy lies, but mine are okay because they're the Real Good News! From that perspective, the idea that preaching atheists are just as bad as preaching Christians because they're equally annoying isn't as radically idiotic as you make it sound.

    fundamentalists aren't bad solely because they're annoying. people with whiny, nasally voices are annoying, people with B.O. are annoying, people who wear brown shoes and a black belt are annoying, but they aren't bad. fundamentalists are bad because of their political power, and their views on society. sometimes, because they're violent. they're bad because their views have real-world consequences that are very bad.

    the idea ignores the very real problems of religious bigotry, misogyny, foreign and domestic policy idiocy and the abrogation of civil rights, and reduces the problems of fundamentalism down to a mere annoyance, on par with atheists who don't respect people's beliefs about faeries.

    2ezikn6.jpg
  • SenjutsuSenjutsu fiddy too Registered User regular
    edited November 2006
    Kazhiim wrote:
    The fact that the guy's defense was "she started it first" really puts me off as to whether his summary of what happened is entirely trustworthy

    for all we know, he may have gotten in her face about believing silly shit
    Does the story mention the part he grudgingly admitted here, which was that during his "nice, polite discussion about her use of the word science" the teacher came over and told him to shut up about it already, and he kept going any?

    He continually frames this as him being persecuted for being an atheist, but when you look at what he admits to doing, other people's reactions to it, and the way he frames the whole thing, he comes off as a douche who constantly gives half-truths to make himself look good. If there's a follow up story next week where the school says they kicked him out for ranting like a loon at her and at them when they talked to him, I wouldn't bat an eyebrow.

    Sarksus wrote: »
    I'm gonna get a PhD in incest.
  • KazhiimKazhiim __BANNED USERS
    edited November 2006
    Still, you shouldn't expel a student from art school for being a douchebag

    There'd be no artists!

    lost_sig2.png
  • SenjutsuSenjutsu fiddy too Registered User regular
    edited November 2006
    fundamentalists aren't bad solely because they're annoying. people with whiny, nasally voices are annoying, people with B.O. are annoying, people who wear brown shoes and a black belt are annoying, but they aren't bad. fundamentalists are bad because of their political power, and their views on society. sometimes, because they're violent. they're bad because their views have real-world consequences that are very bad.
    Replace "fundamentalist" with "atheist", and you'd sound just like them.
    the idea ignores the very real problems of religious bigotry, misogyny, foreign and domestic policy idiocy and the abrogation of civil rights, and reduces the problems of fundamentalism down to a mere annoyance, on par with atheists who don't respect people's beliefs about faeries.
    No, you simply continue to pretend that if religion went away, human nature would somehow change and that bigotry, misogyny, and every other shitty aspect of the human race wouldn't be every bit as prevalent. You're no better than the fundamentalist who attacks atheism because he mistakes it for the root of all society's ills.

    Sarksus wrote: »
    I'm gonna get a PhD in incest.
  • The Green Eyed MonsterThe Green Eyed Monster i blame hip hop Registered User regular
    edited November 2006
    Merovingi wrote:
    "...not a protected class.." I mean, seriously.. I'd would've punched that prick in the gut so hard he'd be spitting up blood for weeks. Then again, I do have possible anger issues, heh.
    That quote was from him. He told the paper the dean said that, and given his penchant for framing things in a light most favorable to him, it frankly smacks of pure bullshit. Plus newspapers mince quotes all the time.

    Plus it should really be mentioned that the Mercury is the hipster culture review source, NOT the "news" newspaper up here. It actively runs issues to mock the other free weekly, like the "Foude" issue when the Williamette does their serious one. They had an entire Steven Seagal issue when he came here to play a show for christ's sakes -- an issue with nothing but cover to cover articles and reviews about Steven Seagal related things. You read it because they have a really funny, snarky celebrity gossip round-up and their show recommendations for the upcoming weekends are always the best. I hardly even knew they ran real articles in there, so anyway it's hardly a fount of responsible journalism or anything.

    wisdom wrote:
    if knowledge is power and power corrupts, be smart, be evil
  • ZsetrekZsetrek Registered User regular
    edited November 2006
    Senjutsu wrote:
    fundamentalists aren't bad solely because they're annoying. people with whiny, nasally voices are annoying, people with B.O. are annoying, people who wear brown shoes and a black belt are annoying, but they aren't bad. fundamentalists are bad because of their political power, and their views on society. sometimes, because they're violent. they're bad because their views have real-world consequences that are very bad.
    Replace "fundamentalist" with "atheist", and you'd sound just like them.

    Let Loren have his boogeyman. Life is a whole lot easier if you can pin all of the bad aspects of human nature onto someone specific's chest.

  • MikeManMikeMan Registered User regular
    edited November 2006
    Senjutsu wrote:
    the idea ignores the very real problems of religious bigotry, misogyny, foreign and domestic policy idiocy and the abrogation of civil rights, and reduces the problems of fundamentalism down to a mere annoyance, on par with atheists who don't respect people's beliefs about faeries.
    No, you simply continue to pretend that if religion went away, human nature would somehow change and that bigotry, misogyny, and every other shitty aspect of the human race wouldn't be every bit as prevalent. You're no better than the fundamentalist who attacks atheism because he mistakes it for the root of all society's ills.

    I'm not sure that's what he's saying, Senj.

    It is not the root of all evil. It is, however, a bad thing that exists in society, in his opinion. If it were worked against, just like if racism were worked against, the world would not magically get better, but there would be improvement.

    That's all.

    HOW DO YOU FUCK UP BAGELS. YOU BOIL THE WATER. PUT IN THE NOODLES
  • Loren MichaelLoren Michael Registered User regular
    edited November 2006
    Senjutsu wrote:
    fundamentalists aren't bad solely because they're annoying. people with whiny, nasally voices are annoying, people with B.O. are annoying, people who wear brown shoes and a black belt are annoying, but they aren't bad. fundamentalists are bad because of their political power, and their views on society. sometimes, because they're violent. they're bad because their views have real-world consequences that are very bad.
    Replace "fundamentalist" with "atheist", and you'd sound just like them.

    ...wait, so are you saying that fundamentalists have a point? what the hell are you talking about?
    the idea ignores the very real problems of religious bigotry, misogyny, foreign and domestic policy idiocy and the abrogation of civil rights, and reduces the problems of fundamentalism down to a mere annoyance, on par with atheists who don't respect people's beliefs about faeries.
    No, you simply continue to pretend that if religion went away, human nature would somehow change and that bigotry, misogyny, and every other shitty aspect of the human race wouldn't be every bit as prevalent. You're no better than the fundamentalist who attacks atheism because he mistakes it for the root of all society's ills.

    family planning, education, women's rights, gay rights, pornography, foreign policy, and environmental policy are all issues that are directly affected by people's religious views, and very specific religious views at that.

    there is no secular reason to consider condom use immoral.

    2ezikn6.jpg
  • Loren MichaelLoren Michael Registered User regular
    edited November 2006
    Zsetrek wrote:
    Life is a whole lot easier if you can pin all of the bad aspects of human nature onto someone specific's chest.

    i'm not.

    2ezikn6.jpg
  • SenjutsuSenjutsu fiddy too Registered User regular
    edited November 2006
    MikeMan445 wrote:
    Senjutsu wrote:
    the idea ignores the very real problems of religious bigotry, misogyny, foreign and domestic policy idiocy and the abrogation of civil rights, and reduces the problems of fundamentalism down to a mere annoyance, on par with atheists who don't respect people's beliefs about faeries.
    No, you simply continue to pretend that if religion went away, human nature would somehow change and that bigotry, misogyny, and every other shitty aspect of the human race wouldn't be every bit as prevalent. You're no better than the fundamentalist who attacks atheism because he mistakes it for the root of all society's ills.

    I'm not sure that's what he's saying, Senj.

    It is not the root of all evil. It is, however, a bad thing that exists in society, in his opinion. If it were worked against, just like if racism were worked against, the world would not magically get better, but there would be improvement.

    That's all.
    This presupposes that if you took religion away, all those asshole preachers and fundamentalists who spew bigotry et al would stop being assholes and bigots.

    I see absolutely no evidence that assholes are anything other than assholes. Loren is free to believe in invisible links that cause the idea of religion to warp good people into assholes, and free to believe that they would magically change their ways when they hear the Truth, but that kind of blind faith in a nice story about how $IDEOLOGY can cure all wounds doesn't appeal to me.

    Sarksus wrote: »
    I'm gonna get a PhD in incest.
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