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15 people dead in Germany school shooting

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Posts

  • matt has a problemmatt has a problem Six pack on a dick Registered User regular
    TONIGHT AT 6: NATIONWIDE GUN BAN

    TONIGHT AT 11: KNIFE VIOLENCE ON THE RISE
    I see you're watching the BBC.

    h1DI1.jpg
  • StarcrossStarcross Registered User regular
    TONIGHT AT 6: NATIONWIDE GUN BAN

    TONIGHT AT 11: KNIFE VIOLENCE ON THE RISE

    Still, there's a reason you don't see mass school knifings.

  • Nova_CNova_C Sniff Sniff Snorf Yellowknife, NTRegistered User regular
    TONIGHT AT 6: NATIONWIDE GUN BAN

    TONIGHT AT 11: KNIFE VIOLENCE ON THE RISE

    I don't have the stats at the ready, so feel free to dismiss this if you want, but I'm pretty sure that knife crime in Canada actually spiked after the new gun laws went into effect in the 90s.

  • geckahngeckahn Registered User
    I do not give a flying fuck about gun control, it's politically off the table.

    That said, if you try to use any of these arguments against it:

    a) gun control was implemented in x city, surrounded by non-gun control states, and didnt see results
    b) knife violence will rise
    c) gun control wont stop teenagers flipping out

    Then you are probably a fucking idiot.

  • ScalfinScalfin __BANNED USERS regular
    Nova_C wrote: »
    TONIGHT AT 6: NATIONWIDE GUN BAN

    TONIGHT AT 11: KNIFE VIOLENCE ON THE RISE

    I don't have the stats at the ready, so feel free to dismiss this if you want, but I'm pretty sure that knife crime in Canada actually spiked after the new gun laws went into effect in the 90s.

    The thing is, this does kill the argument that there's some sort of illegal gun tree, as everybody knows that guns are more effective than knives.

    Honestly, why can't we honor our revolutionary past by keeping muzzle loaders legal?

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    The rest of you, I fucking hate you for the fact that I now have a blue dot on this god awful thread.
  • matt has a problemmatt has a problem Six pack on a dick Registered User regular
    Scalfin wrote: »
    Nova_C wrote: »
    TONIGHT AT 6: NATIONWIDE GUN BAN

    TONIGHT AT 11: KNIFE VIOLENCE ON THE RISE

    I don't have the stats at the ready, so feel free to dismiss this if you want, but I'm pretty sure that knife crime in Canada actually spiked after the new gun laws went into effect in the 90s.

    The thing is, this does kill the argument that there's some sort of illegal gun tree, as everybody knows that guns are more effective than knives.

    Honestly, why can't we honor our revolutionary past by keeping muzzle loaders legal?
    Pistols at dawn, my good sir.

    h1DI1.jpg
  • Nova_CNova_C Sniff Sniff Snorf Yellowknife, NTRegistered User regular
    geckahn wrote: »
    I do not give a flying fuck about gun control, it's politically off the table.

    That said, if you try to use any of these arguments against it:

    a) gun control was implemented in x city, surrounded by non-gun control states, and didnt see results
    b) knife violence will rise
    c) gun control wont stop teenagers flipping out

    Then you are probably a fucking idiot.

    My only real objection to the outright banning of guns is that it's a feel good measure supported by people who will be unaffected by the law that will have negligible real-world results. Of course people who don't own guns want to ban them - they sacrifice nothing for their warm, fuzzy feeling of accomplishment.

  • WingoWingo Registered User
    The way I see it, these school shootings are all about power. What makes guns so fucking dangerous is that they offer very much power with very low effort; it's one hell of a lot easier to make people dead with 'em than, say, a tennis racket. Thus, they lower the fear of using them, especially for people who believe they've got nothing but fear in their lives. Combine that with the horrors of school, typical teenage stupidity and lots of retarded ideas induced by wish fulfillment and warped idols, and there you go, violence fantasy.

    The reason why, at least in Germany, video games get the blame is just ridiculous. It just shows how helpless government, media, people in general are when it comes to this. How do you prevent a psycho from doing that when one cause is that no-one's paying attention to them? I actually asked one of my class fellows that very question (I went to school in Germany), and his answer was "Oh, these guys commit suicide anyway".
    I think that's a goddamn horrifying answer.

    So, in short, I don't think it's important to restrict access to weapons (that's another topic entirely) or to ban video games or whatnot. I think it's important to provide more background. One thing about the reports that covered the German school shooting was that they were too eager to blame something; nobody knew anything about the guy who did it, as if it wasn't important, now that he's dead. No, it IS important. There's no problem in this world that you can fight by eliminating symptomes.

    And BTW: my school got two bomb threats, both fake. Wasn't fun either.

  • LacroixLacroix Registered User
    Can you show me that removing guns would lessen the rate of violent crime?

    Or do you advocate the banning of certain items based on the extreme statistical outliers?

    EDIT: And my hobbiest items are any item that is unnecessary to survive in the modern world since your belief is that since guns aren't necessary it's okay to ban them.

    No, my belief is that an item which is BY DESIGN dangerous AND is unnecesary should be banned.

    So lets try again.

    A BBQ grill, though dangerous, is BY DESIGN used to cook food.
    A FISH KNIFE is BY DESIGN used to cut fish, though this has dangerous applications, I don't think it should be banned
    A DRILL is BY DESIGN used to drill holes in wood/walls etc. That it is dangerous is simply a byproduct of this design. It is not unneccesary
    You've only changed my argument to the point that by my logic sabres and bow/arrows should be banned too, which I am willing to concede

    A GUN is by design used to SHOOT THINGS. It has no useful application beyond this.
    Owning a gun doesn't cause any problems. Someone using the gun illegally causes problems. The same as someone using anything illegally causes problems.

    Shooting at a target range is not the function of a gun. The law exists to regulate something that people just dont need to have. The people who use guns to shoot living things are using them CORRECTLY, if not legally. This is why guns are not the same as other items you keep bringing up.


    Also, i'm saying that removing GUNS reduce gun crime. Its not everything, and wont stop all violent crime, but AT VERY LEAST will lessen the death toll.

    My god yes, people will use knives and still try to kill people if they dont have guns I totally didn't know that. Why don't we just allow everyone to start blowing shit up with hand grenades as a hobby, then I can
    say stupid stuff like:

    'TONIGHT AT 6: NATIONWIDE GRENADE BAN

    TONIGHT AT 11: GUN VIOLENCE ON THE RISE'

    Or tanks! Why can't people own tanks! After all, they helped you win a war, so that kept your freedom, lets justify that too.

  • geckahngeckahn Registered User
    hahhhh. back in the day my school got like 30 bomb threats one year. It was basically an excuse to go outside for 15 minutes.

  • PeregrineFalconPeregrineFalcon Registered User
    I thought this wasn't a gun thread. :|

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    Can trade TF2 items or whatever else you're interested in. PM me.
  • geckahngeckahn Registered User
    I thought this wasn't a gun thread. :|

    You really want to talk about school violence in germany?

  • PeregrineFalconPeregrineFalcon Registered User
    geckahn wrote: »
    hahhhh. back in the day my school got like 30 bomb threats one year. It was basically an excuse to go outside for 15 minutes.

    At my school, the "bomb threats" were actually phoned in by the police so that they could take the canine unit through and sniff for drugs. :P

    Looking for a DX:HR OnLive code for my kid brother.
    Can trade TF2 items or whatever else you're interested in. PM me.
  • ScalfinScalfin __BANNED USERS regular
    geckahn wrote: »
    I thought this wasn't a gun thread. :|

    You really want to talk about school violence in germany?

    That's Nazi talk.

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    The rest of you, I fucking hate you for the fact that I now have a blue dot on this god awful thread.
  • Nova_CNova_C Sniff Sniff Snorf Yellowknife, NTRegistered User regular
    Lacroix wrote: »
    Shooting at a target range is not the function of a gun. The law exists to regulate something that people just dont need to have. The people who use guns to shoot living things are using them CORRECTLY, if not legally. This is why guns are not the same as other items you keep bringing up.

    Wha? What kind of arrogance does someone need to say that shooting a target is not the function of a gun. It is by definition the function of a gun. Whether the target is live or not is immaterial. The gun exists to fire a bullet. Anything else is simply empty justification for a narrow point of view.

  • LeitnerLeitner Registered User regular
    geckahn wrote: »
    I thought this wasn't a gun thread. :|

    You really want to talk about school violence in germany?

    We could discuss the way bullying isn't taken seriously and seen as a right of passage probably leads to a lot of broken kids. How it differs between somewhere like the school I went to (inner city south London yet had rather little physical bullying) and public schools, which are often worse, meaning it isn't wholly a class thing. I'm sure we could get a lot of mileage there, and cover some vaguely new ground.

  • matt has a problemmatt has a problem Six pack on a dick Registered User regular
    Lacroix wrote: »
    Owning a gun doesn't cause any problems. Someone using the gun illegally causes problems. The same as someone using anything illegally causes problems.

    Shooting at a target range is not the function of a gun. The law exists to regulate something that people just dont need to have. The people who use guns to shoot living things are using them CORRECTLY, if not legally. This is why guns are not the same as other items you keep bringing up.
    I'm sorry but you're wrong. The function of a gun is to fire a projectile at a target chosen by the user. The same way a car is designed to be driven to a destination chosen by the user. Whether that target, or that destination, is where a person is standing is completely up to the user. That people choose to shoot other people with guns does not mean the gun's function is to shoot people.

    h1DI1.jpg
  • LacroixLacroix Registered User
    My only real objection to the outright banning of guns is that it's a feel good measure supported by people who will be unaffected by the law that will have negligible real-world results. Of course people who don't own guns want to ban them - they sacrifice nothing for their warm, fuzzy feeling of accomplishment.

    And what gun-owners are losing, what huge impact on their life is it going to have?

    So, in short, I don't think it's important to restrict access to weapons (that's another topic entirely) or to ban video games or whatnot. I think it's important to provide more background. One thing about the reports that covered the German school shooting was that they were too eager to blame something; nobody knew anything about the guy who did it, as if it wasn't important, now that he's dead. No, it IS important. There's no problem in this world that you can fight by eliminating symptomes.

    While I disagree with the first part of that sentence, I agree very much with the second two sentences. This. Very much this.

  • KlykaKlyka DO you have any SPARE BATTERIES?Registered User regular
    Media is already asking if "violent video games" are a cause for this.
    Surely the parents having 16 weapons at home and the guy just having issues are not to blame.

    Sometimes I really hate this country :(

    SC2 EU ID Klyka.110
    lTDyp.jpg
  • Nova_CNova_C Sniff Sniff Snorf Yellowknife, NTRegistered User regular
    Lacroix wrote: »
    My only real objection to the outright banning of guns is that it's a feel good measure supported by people who will be unaffected by the law that will have negligible real-world results. Of course people who don't own guns want to ban them - they sacrifice nothing for their warm, fuzzy feeling of accomplishment.

    And what gun-owners are losing, what huge impact on their life is it going to have?

    They're losing their hobby. You may think that doesn't matter, but I do since it also means I'll be out thousands of dollars when my guns are confiscated AND it'll be for naught since it'll accomplish nothing. You really do support the oppression of this minority for no good reason, I see.

  • PeregrineFalconPeregrineFalcon Registered User
    Lacroix wrote: »
    My only real objection to the outright banning of guns is that it's a feel good measure supported by people who will be unaffected by the law that will have negligible real-world results. Of course people who don't own guns want to ban them - they sacrifice nothing for their warm, fuzzy feeling of accomplishment.

    And what gun-owners are losing, what huge impact on their life is it going to have?

    A distinct lack of venison.

    Looking for a DX:HR OnLive code for my kid brother.
    Can trade TF2 items or whatever else you're interested in. PM me.
  • geckahngeckahn Registered User
    Nova_C wrote: »
    Lacroix wrote: »
    My only real objection to the outright banning of guns is that it's a feel good measure supported by people who will be unaffected by the law that will have negligible real-world results. Of course people who don't own guns want to ban them - they sacrifice nothing for their warm, fuzzy feeling of accomplishment.

    And what gun-owners are losing, what huge impact on their life is it going to have?

    They're losing their hobby. You may think that doesn't matter, but I do since it also means I'll be out thousands of dollars when my guns are confiscated AND it'll be for naught since it'll accomplish nothing. You really do support the oppression of this minority for no good reason, I see.

    In what fantasy world do you think this would ever happen?

    Chill the fuck out and stop being so paranoid.

  • mcdermottmcdermott Registered User regular
    Is it just me or are the death tolls getting bigger and bigger? While also being more frequent?

    On the death tolls getting bigger, I think it's just you. More will killed at VTech, about the same were killed at Columbine. As for frequency, I'd have to check...but I'd not be surprised if that was just you as well.
    Kartan wrote: »
    Can we agree that the american philosophy regarding firearms and the german/european philosophy regarding firearms is different and leave it at that? Germany has very strict gun control laws and has significantly fewer violent deaths. That the same would be true in the US if they just adopted the german system is highly unlikely.

    Wait....I thought Germany had strict gun control laws, and you (along with wikipedia) seem to verify this. So how did this even happen?

    Let me guess: he got them at a gun show down in Switzerland.

  • Nova_CNova_C Sniff Sniff Snorf Yellowknife, NTRegistered User regular
    geckahn wrote: »
    In what fantasy world do you think this would ever happen?

    Chill the fuck out and stop being so paranoid.

    ? It's what he's advocating. I guess I could always just ignore him, then.

  • PeregrineFalconPeregrineFalcon Registered User
    mcdermott wrote: »
    Is it just me or are the death tolls getting bigger and bigger? While also being more frequent?

    On the death tolls getting bigger, I think it's just you. More will killed at VTech, about the same were killed at Columbine. As for frequency, I'd have to check...but I'd not be surprised if that was just you as well.

    One thing I'd bet has increased? Media coverage of these shootings.

    (Note - I'm not blaming anyone here, I'm just stating that there's more coverage of them now. They're hot-button, sexy, look-at-the-ratings issues.)

    Looking for a DX:HR OnLive code for my kid brother.
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  • InquisitorInquisitor Registered User regular
    My public highschool has practically no bullying, at least in the physical sense. But I don't think there was much emotional bullying either. Of course, my highschool is most likely the exception to the norm for a number of reasons. It was a magnet school, which means it could kick you out and have you go to your standard local public school instead, and they used this threat to enforce their zero fight policy. I think the closest thing we had to a physical fight was some girls throwing nachos at each other, and the administration felt that such an event was worth calling a school meeting over. :P

    It was also a science and technology focused school, we had no sports teams (though some people played sports for their regular local public school), no music program, etc. We had a robotics team. I mean, there were still 'jocks' and 'nerds' but there was a much larger percentage of nerds than average for a school. There also was a GPA requirement to get into the school when I went, but, I think that has since been dropped and the school has steadily degraded in quality since.

    AoTsig_zps8cfd65c2.png
  • FencingsaxFencingsax Registered User regular
    mcdermott wrote: »
    Is it just me or are the death tolls getting bigger and bigger? While also being more frequent?

    On the death tolls getting bigger, I think it's just you. More will killed at VTech, about the same were killed at Columbine. As for frequency, I'd have to check...but I'd not be surprised if that was just you as well.
    .
    It's probably mostly that these incidents are being reported internationally more frequently.


    Because 9% think it's too high, and shouldn't be cut! 9% of respondents could not fully
    get their arms around the question. There should be another box you can check for, "I
    have utterly no idea what you're talking about. Please, God, don't ask for my input."
  • an_altan_alt Registered User regular
    geckahn wrote: »
    In what fantasy world do you think this would ever happen?

    He lives in Canada. It's a realistic scenario for him.

    Pony wrote:
    I think that the internet has been for years on the path to creating what is essentially an electronic Necronomicon: A collection of blasphemous unrealities so perverse that to even glimpse at its contents, if but for a moment, is to irrevocably forfeit a portion of your sanity.
    Xbox - PearlBlueS0ul, Steam
  • Sir CarcassSir Carcass I have been shown the end of my world Austin, TXRegistered User regular
    Another girl just died. Death toll is now 16.

    Oh, 17 if you count the gunman who was killed by police.

    camo_sig2.png
  • DocDoc Registered User, ClubPA regular
    geckahn wrote: »
    Nova_C wrote: »
    Lacroix wrote: »
    My only real objection to the outright banning of guns is that it's a feel good measure supported by people who will be unaffected by the law that will have negligible real-world results. Of course people who don't own guns want to ban them - they sacrifice nothing for their warm, fuzzy feeling of accomplishment.

    And what gun-owners are losing, what huge impact on their life is it going to have?

    They're losing their hobby. You may think that doesn't matter, but I do since it also means I'll be out thousands of dollars when my guns are confiscated AND it'll be for naught since it'll accomplish nothing. You really do support the oppression of this minority for no good reason, I see.

    In what fantasy world do you think this would ever happen?

    Chill the fuck out and stop being so paranoid.

    o_O

    Lacroix put forth a hypothetical, and Nova responded.

    So I guess the answer is "Lacroix's."

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  • LacroixLacroix Registered User
    That people choose to shoot other people with guns does not mean the gun's function is to shoot people.

    I said living things. Okay yes, it technically functions to shoot a bullet (as the gun itself has no intent), not neccesarily at a target it could be air. But the original design? Despite the mass implementation of guns in war and other areas, are you legitimately trying to tell me that the gun was origionally created for the intent of shooting a can/wall/board instead of living things?

    The purpose for which the gun was first created is relevant to the function of the gun.
    They're losing their hobby. You may think that doesn't matter, but I do since it also means I'll be out thousands of dollars when my guns are confiscated AND it'll be for naught since it'll accomplish nothing. You really do support the oppression of this minority for no good reason, I see.

    I think it doesnt matter IN COMPARISON to an environment where stupid people (not you) have easy, legal access to guns yeah.

    And as for opression: You own the gun, and as I understand it from this thread America is so fond of them because it helped free them from opression, so its not like you have the unfair advantage when they come to confiscate it.

    and as for it having no impact:
    Still, there's a reason you don't see mass school knifings.
    By and large, it is the difference between 5 and 15 dead.

    Lacroix put forth a hypothetical, and Nova responded.

    So I guess the answer is "Lacroix's."

    Heh. :)

  • L*2*G*XL*2*G*X Registered User regular
    A few thoughts-

    1) Guns make it a lot easier to kill people. Kids will use knives (hello U.K.) or bludgeons if they have to, but guns make the damage worse.

    2) These agressors go out an kill people, and then kill themselves, and they become bigger than life in the aftermath. I'm convinced some copycat mechanism is involved. I'm looking at you here media.

    In fact, let me expound on that. To make succesful media you have to simplify people's lives and make them 'bigger than life'.
    So from watchin too much tv or movies people get the idea that:
    -their lives are lacking in identifiable ways
    -simple actions can improve their lives.

    this is true for police series, advertisements, medical series, news, even documentaries. The messages range from becoming a better mom by buying sugar frosted chocolate flakes, to becoming more manly by buying a glock, and of course voting for the Party With the Solution.

    Despite global warming, rampant obesity and general idiocy I don't think it's too bad a system as long as you keep your front door firmly locked. Who am I kidding? It's disastrous- but that's not what we're discussing here.

    Relevant to the situation is that I believe most if not all of these guys watch these tragedies blown up in the media and learn that:
    -losers like them can get famous
    -by picking up a gun and killing innocents

    It's not the sole cause but, hombre, you will need some high-fallutin' analysing to convince me that it's not a significant cause. And that therefore less media attention would REDUCE the problem.

  • DuffelDuffel Registered User
    Are all school shootings lashing out against bullies, though? The Virginia Tech shooting in particular was just an extremely disturbed person who finally snapped. I don't think bullies played into it at all.

    I didn't think most school shooters were as likely to be bullying victims (although it definitely plays a part in some instances) as kids who seem to have a sociopathic streak in the first place. So, the ones who are obsessed with death, war crimes/Nazis, extremist ideologies, genocide - stuff like that. I could be wrong, though.

  • matt has a problemmatt has a problem Six pack on a dick Registered User regular
    Lacroix wrote: »
    That people choose to shoot other people with guns does not mean the gun's function is to shoot people.

    I said living things. Okay yes, it technically functions to shoot a bullet (as the gun itself has no intent), not neccesarily at a target it could be air. But the original design? Despite the mass implementation of guns in war and other areas, are you legitimately trying to tell me that the gun was origionally created for the intent of shooting a can/wall/board instead of living things?

    The purpose for which the gun was first created is relevant to the function of the gun.
    If you want to go back to prehistory, the first function of weapons were for defense from predators and hunting, both which are still just as viable today. And the only "living things" it's not ok to shoot at are people (and some endangered species).


    As horribly, horribly, I almost hate to say it because it's so horribly, cliche as the phrase is, in countries where guns have been banned, the only people left with guns are criminals.

    And farmers.

    And farmers' mums.

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  • LeitnerLeitner Registered User regular
    I thought the VT kid was hella bullied? At least in part because he was wierd and so quiet.

  • mcdermottmcdermott Registered User regular
    Duffel wrote: »
    Are all school shootings lashing out against bullies, though? The Virginia Tech shooting in particular was just an extremely disturbed person who finally snapped. I don't think bullies played into it at all.

    Pretty sure he was bullied in middle school and high school...he just waited until college to finally snap.

  • Johnny ChopsockyJohnny Chopsocky Scootaloo! We have to cook! Grillin' HaysenburgersRegistered User regular
    Starcross wrote: »
    TONIGHT AT 6: NATIONWIDE GUN BAN

    TONIGHT AT 11: KNIFE VIOLENCE ON THE RISE

    Still, there's a reason you don't see mass school knifings.

    Do 13 people stabbed at a day care center by one guy count as 'mass'?

    ygPIJ.gif
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  • LacroixLacroix Registered User
    Sorry to DP but the Death Toll is still going up? shit. Are there more still injured/dying?

    I'd never considered the fame aspect of it. Maybe I just have a bad head for names though, but they dont really get famous... unless 'that asian guy from Vtech' is a memorable legacy that they want to achieve. Its not like many will know their names or remember their faces after maybe a week.

  • DuffelDuffel Registered User
    mcdermott wrote: »
    Pretty sure he was bullied in middle school and high school...he just waited until college to finally snap.
    Yeah, I wiki'd it and you all are right. Still, though, I think there's a lot more that makes a school shooter than bullying and access to guns - I just don't see how someone can become a spree killer without already being a sociopath.

  • L*2*G*XL*2*G*X Registered User regular
    If you want to go back to prehistory, the first function of weapons were for defense from predators and hunting, both which are still just as viable today.

    Actually if you go to a good prehistoric museum you'll find spears and daggers next to swords. Swords made out of bone and flint, but obviously meant to fight people.

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