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Fat Acceptance (No, I will not make you a sandwich)
necroSYS
Registered User, ClubPA regular
Registered User, ClubPA regular
Props to Feral for recognizing this should be split into its own thread.
Here's the basics:
Having been massively fat (like orca fat) and then getting in really awesome shape several years back (more than 5, which I guess qualifies me as a "freak of nature" in some eyes), I understand the whole inertia around obesity. I was a fat kid, I know what that was like.
But I also know enough about human physiognomy and exercise science to know that obesity is not a "valid lifestyle choice". If you want to be fat, fine. But don't expect society (which has to absorb most of the externalized costs of your choice) to love you for it.
Look, when we're talking about race, creed, color, sexual orientation, etc, I'm all for universal acceptance, believe me.
But if we're talking about universal acceptance for fat, wilfully-obtuse people, I'm going to be one of the angry protestors holding up a EAT A FUCKING SALAD, JESUS CHRIST signs.
I would love to talk to you about fat acceptance but I don't want to drag this thread off-topic. I invite you to start your own thread if you care about this subject enough to clutter up this thread with it.
Here's the basics:
Having been massively fat (like orca fat) and then getting in really awesome shape several years back (more than 5, which I guess qualifies me as a "freak of nature" in some eyes), I understand the whole inertia around obesity. I was a fat kid, I know what that was like.
But I also know enough about human physiognomy and exercise science to know that obesity is not a "valid lifestyle choice". If you want to be fat, fine. But don't expect society (which has to absorb most of the externalized costs of your choice) to love you for it.
necroSYS on
Kate of Lokys wrote: »There's no point in you getting both of yourselves all worked up and ready to chart the undiscovered country, then having her flush crimson red, run to the bathroom, and spend twenty minutes straining and grunting and stressing out because you're all ready to deliver your package but there's a three inch thick Sunday paper clogging up the mail slot.
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Posts
Attractiveness is relative. I've been attracted to many different sized women, but that doesn't mean that I don't have a preference for athletic/slim figures on women.
Judgement often comes because people realize that it is quite doable to lose weight if you really commit to it, thus not doing it means you haven't really committed to doing it. They don't realize how long it takes, or just how picky and disciplined and changed you have to be in order to meet with their unrealistic standards.
Give yourself time, and believe you can and *decide* to go for it, and you can do it...if you want to.
If you don't do it, realize that's a choice too, and people have the right to judge you based on your decisions.
o_O
I weigh 150 and look like a fucking stick. Nevertheless, I don't understand why people don't have the right to get as fat as they want. And I don't understand why anyone has the right to object.
Edit: Also, what Jinto and ElJeffe said.
Fat people don't have to walk those steps - that's one of the things they pay the lobbyists for.
What about clinical depression, bipolar disorder, post-traumatic stress disorder, body dysmorphic disorder, or any number of other psychological conditions that cause people to overeat or spurn exercise?
I don't think that clinical obesity should be treated as harmless, but this attitude of "I don't have any problem with fat people, but seriously fuck fat people." is extremely disturbing. How the fuck is it permissible to tell someone "it's OK that you're unacceptably disgusting, so long as you have a doctor's note"?
Obesity is a real, serious medical condition that should be treated with as much sympathy and care as any debilitating disease. Enablers, people who advocate eschewing treatment in lieu of some bullshit egalitarian crusade against looksism deserve to be called out for the harm they're doing, but that harm is absolutely inconsequential compared to the damage caused by this attitude of "sit up or shut up."
I'm not pointing the finger at any one person, I just thought Drez's post was a good jumping-off place for the point I wanted to make. Honestly the sentiment behind this whole thread makes me slightly ill.
Oh absolutely on both accounts. The worst part is: it's SO EASY to blame genes. I blame genes for what I have to do to actually keep off the weight. I have many friends who eat Chipotle with chips and a large drink twice a day and still manage to be under 170 pounds. They do the same things I do: Work at a desk job and play video games.
If I even think about eating Chipotle I gain ten pounds right off the bat. It's insane.
But even then, it goes back to: willpower. If you've got the will you can do it. It's just that it's hard, and people don't like hard things. Hell it's almost like people don't like to overcome challenges. They like to accept defeat. It's sickening.
Yeah the stupid mentality is driving me nuts too.
Touche.
"Who you lobbying for?"
"Twinkies, you?"
"Obese people, we should go over our notes over a low cal lunch."
FAT PEOPLE ARE BAD HURF DURF. "Yes I am grossly obese but I'm still a person so stop treating me like shit." applies to comments like this, I believe.
Granted I can walk that 6 miles and not get tired, which is weird yay stamina I guess. Maybe I should do what Eddie Murphy did and put on six jackets and walk that 6 miles, it is summer time and he did lose a lot of weight really quick like that. (yes I know that's a horribly dangerous idea)
Personally, I'm glad I now live in a place where walking and using mass transit is a viable option, because I think the fact that often people have no exercise built into their lives due to sedentary jobs and driving everywhere is half the problem. To say nothing of all the foods stuffed with sugars/hcfs/etc.
And just for reference sake I'm about 5'8", 200 lbs. I'm trying to get my weight under control, but lack of money (which means buying cheap food) and stress are working against me right now. I take some comfort in the fact that even in my late twenties I'm essentially the same build as I was when I was in college, but it's cold comfort.
As far as I'm concerned though, my wii fit age is younger than my actual age, and thats all that really matters to me. That and my awesome pecs.
The whole obese America thing is something I see everyday. Right now I'm waiting for my next semster of college to start and after looking fruitlessly for a job for a month, I settled with Mcdonalds. Since they give us free meals, it would be very easy to let things get out of hand. I could just not eat there, but free food is a plus for me, so every day for lunch I have a grilled chicken sandwich (only vegetables and BBQ sauce) on their wheat bun with apple slices and milk. So i feel pretty proud of myself.
But then I have to watch the regulars come in, E V E R Y D A Y. Theres one family who comes through the drive thru ATLEAST once a day, and orders 4 large diet cokes. With Washington tax, that comes out to about 9.30 every time. Sometimes they come through a second time. I estimate that they spend rougly $3500 a year soley on Diet Coke. And I'm working at mcdonalds to barely make it through next semesters rent.
Then theres the children, wont somebody please think of the children?? I'm the only person at my work who does this, but every damn time somebody orders a happy meal, I ask if they want fries( which I say in my dull unhappy voice) or if they want Apples! (with a bit more enthusiasum and umph).... Usually they choose fries.
As far as I'm concerned, our obesity problem has one specific culprit. Stupid Parents. Seriously I don't think some people realize how much damage they are doing to their children by feeding them fries every day ( or multiple times a day in some cases.) It makes me sad.
Indeed. A lot of people also don't realise how difficult it can be to lose the last 5-10 extra kilos, because many gyms continue to push cardio as a weight-loss method when in truth treadmills don't do dick for your weight-loss above what you'd lose just walking a kilometre to the bus stop.
You can be healthy and strong with a bit of a tummy, but there is no excuse for choosing to remain obese. Kudos to all people who decide to get fit when they're extremely obese, because it's a tough starting position. But it can be done.
Interesting point. One might even say that a difficult option alcoholics have, that of going cold turkey, is denied to fat people, who have to eat to live, but have trouble stopping at a reasonable amount.
edit:
I don't get this. Why can't someone choose to remain obese? What if they like food?
You have to eat every day. It's one of the most difficult addictions to treat purely because of that.
That said, the idea of "fat acceptance" in my mind is dumb and unhealthy. As I said, I'm not going to disparage anyone, personally, for being overweight, because it's just rude and unkind. But people who actually try to claim that being fat is a valid "lifestyle choice" and others shouldn't be allowed to say it's bad? Yes, it is bad, just like smoking is bad or taking shots at 8 in the morning is bad. Teaching society that "fat is unhealthy" is a far cry from "you suck for being fat", and the former needs to be taught, loud and clear, because it's a rapidly-growing problem. Focus on childhood education, open up gyms, get community programs started. Otherwise we're going to be paying the price later on - all of us.
That said, I think we need somewhat looser standards for "fat". I remember people criticizing Britney Spears' abysmal VMA performance on the grounds that she was "fat". No. She was intoxicated, embarassing, woefully underprepared and a general laughingstock, but fat she was not, and anybody that thinks a 30-year-old woman who weighs 140 lbs is "fat" has their head up their ass.
As for the overweight, they can change it. Don’t give me any of that bullshit. I used to be skinny, ridiculously so due to an extent to actual health reasons. I didn’t mope about how hard life was, I started trying to eat right and working out. And guess what? Shockingly it worked. Whilst I haven’t reached my ideal weight or level of health, I’m slowly getting there. I mean I've passed 200lb which was a big milestone for me.
Now this brings up the question of why should be criticise those in poor health? This is a difficult question, I still check myself for what true motive might lie there – my unexamined subtle prejudices. I think it is because I can’t comprehend people actually being happy to live a as self imposed cripples. That they can stay in such a state. I think modern circumstance drives them there. And that they need the encouragement to escape those pitfalls. Insults and derision may not be the best way to do this (to say the least). This doesn’t mean that we should tell people it’s okay to be so afflicted. I think that’s an awful message to send to people. Rather we should send the opposite one, if you aren’t Apollo that’s fine, just aim for it with what time and effort you can set aside.
I mean sure, if someone is well and truly happy to be obese or anorexic, good for them, I find it real hard to believe such people exist in any notable number though.
It is an issue, and why dieting alone is set to fail for most people. Changing your diet is important, but you need to exercise on top of it because exercise takes away one of the things that leads to obesity, being sedentary. By virtue of getting off your ass you can't be taking in empty calories at least while your exercising (well barring drinking soda/beer/having a sandwhich set up).
All of those things are reasons you can put on weight. But exercise is a good treatment for clinical depression, bipolar disorder, etc. I'm not going all Tom Cruise on you here. I don't think vitamins and exercise are the ONLY treatments for those things, but I'm saying they are not magic cards you can wave in the air to explain everything.
There are reasons every fat person is fat. That doesn't mean they can't get in better shape if they don't want to.
Besides, the point of this thread isn't "fuck fat people". It's "fuck the fat acceptance movement." I don't accept that poor lifestyle choices that are going to negatively impact a huge segment of the population are a good idea. I don't accept that lifestyle choices which are going to cost everyone else money are just fine. and dandy.
I hate piling it on, but losing weight for 90% of the people is not that hard. It takes will power, yeah, but it's not impossible. I LOVE to eat, and I actually didn't change my diet drastically. I naturally stopped eating out at fast food as much as I used to, but I still eat meat, chicken, and what not. It's all about moderation. And of course, excercise.
Something that stuck with me is that when a lot of people would see me during my early weight loss, they would ask me if I had gotten sick, or what crazy diet I had gone through. People were basically surprised that you could lose weight through simple hard work, and I think that's at the root of the obesity problem here in America.
Let's be honest: A few extra pounds won't kill you. And I reserve the right to have an occasional hamburger, or a drink, or a smoke because it's my choice. People have a right to choose the kind of life they want to live so long as they understand the consequences of such choices. Sure, the occasional drink or a smoke might take a couple years off the end of my life, but I would rather keep a balance and enjoy the life I've got rather than live to be 120 years old and hate every single day of it. For the record, I'm 5'11" and about 180 to 185 pounds. I've got a few extra pounds, but I've had several physicals and my doctor has confirmed that I'm perfectly healthy. But if you ask someone like my grandmother, she'll make snide little remarks dictating to me what she think I should look like and that I'm obese, because she knows what makes her happy and therefore it makes everyone happy whether they like it or not. Again, health nazi.
In short, maintain a balance.
They are probably referring to the BMI definition of obesity. The only good thing the fat acceptance movement has done is to increase awareness that BMI is bullshit.
I'm considered obese if I'm 6'3" and 260 lbs of pure ripped muscle.
An interesting, thoughtful post. But I think your last sentence needs to be included in some form in any sending of the bolded message. I don't have much trouble believing that people are happy to be obese, but even if I did, is that a valid reason to tell those who are that they need to lose weight?
Edit: My grandmother is a bit of a medical mystery in that doctor's can't explain why she can't lose weight. She was on a ridiculously harsh calorie restriction diet with hours of exercise a day, and only lost a pound, despite being visibly obese. I'm sure such cases are rare, but they do exist, and I think they serve as a valid reminder that fat people aren't hurting anybody by being fat. It's a lifestyle choice I don't agree with, but there's nothing wrong with it until you start asking everyone else to subsidize your obesity through medical bills or something else.
Yeah, I didn't think you were being particularly unreasonable. I just thought it was an important point to make, because I think a lot of people use "OK, if you really have a glandular problem then I guess I can be less of a bigot" as a kind of token attempt at political correctness. Weight issues aren't just caused by laziness and/or a fucked up thyroid. If someone is clinically depressed and that causes them to overeat this does not make them a bad person. In many cases being overweight can trigger depression, so the issue needs to be handled delicately. I don't think it would be controversial to assume that most people, when faced with their own obesity, will "drown their sorrows" in comfort food, further compounding their condition.
Some people are just fucking lazy. I've met more than a few of them, and I've read the riot act to a couple of my friends for their binge eating habits, but in each case I bookended my concerns with supportive language and a careful tone. But overweight people are not fundamentally defective just because they respond differently to stress.
I think I'm so sensitive to this partly because I'm on the opposite end of the spectrum, and have spent almost my whole live dangerously underweight. I know from personal experience that being too tired to cook /= too lazy to eat right. Even trying to walk downstairs when my blood pressure is spiking can be terrifying, and the last time I tried doing free weights my shoulder ratcheted painfully eight times with each lift. I've been called ugly, lazy, weak, and worthless for looking drawn and sickly, despite doing everything I knew how to keep weight on. My body just reacts to stress differently; I came back from Japan eating 2800 calories a day with 96 pounds on my 5'8" frame.
I don't want to equivocate and try to claim that my experiences with ostracism are equal to or the same as those suffered by people who are overweight despite their best efforts. But I do know what its like to be snickered at for my weight, and it's not just because I lack self control.
BMI is a measure of populations, which it works fine as. Yeah you might be arnie, but is your average person at that weight going to be any such thing? (Outside of like Somans)
Though yes, it as a measure of personal fitness is quite clearly ridiculous.
Man, it's your tax money paying for their medical treatment. When I see the annual federal budget each year, I cheer increased funding to hospitals because I imagine that money helping people with terminal illnesses, people with serious mental conditions, children with leukemia, etc etc. Then I realise that, every year, a significant portion of it goes to help obese people who are content to remain the way they are.
Ambulance fleets are being remodeled to accomodate the morbidly obese. Hospital doorways are being widened. Oh, and have you read about how morbidly obese women in both the US and Australia are getting pregnant but refusing to lose weight during pregnancy, thus endangering their unborn children?
Being obese is not something that anyone should be content with. It doesn't mean that obese people should be treated with scorn, but we can't be complacent about it either. "Oh, it's not hurting anyone." Well, yes, it is.
Drunks Against Mad Mothers
<---- Exhibit A
No, no it fucking isn't. Being obese while pregnant may be hurting somebody. Fine. Don't give a free pass to pregnant obese people. Being obese and asking the government to accommodate you may be hurting somebody. Fine. Don't have the government spend money on those accommodations. But there's nothing fucking wrong with being fat!
He can't decide whether he likes this thread for the right reasons or not.
I'm 6'2", and about 230-240. I'm overweight, and have been for a few years now. I recently lost a bit (so I might very well be under 230) due to changing my diet. However, I love food. I honestly think that food is one of the most wonderful things that human beings can experience, and I love to eat. Now, I don't eat constantly, and I try to eat in a relatively healthy manner (which means I cook a lot instead of eating junk food). I'm pretty committed to being overweight for the rest of my life. I hate exercising, and I refuse to give up one of the greatest pleasures in my life in order to lose a few pounds. I also have a tolerable level of fatness for myself, and I reached that (what prompted the cutting of sugared sodas out of the diet) and I wont reach it again.
The question is though, how tolerant should we be of my kind of mentality? I wouldn't really say that I'm obese (at least not a lot) but I don't really want to be fit and healthy either (and I probably wont ever be). Is it okay to do things that are unhealthy even knowing that I might be more sick when I'm older or die sooner?
The flip-side to that (and the reason the movement is mostly nonsense now) is that going to the opposite extreme and preaching that obesity is a lifestyle choice, that all sizes are "OK" and "nobody should change who they are" "everyone is beautiful" etc. well, none of that helps people lose weight either.
As soon as you've abandoned the mindset that obesity is a problem, and it needs to be overcome, you have entered the land of fatty-fatty-crazyville.
So if you are fat and want to be treated decently, that's fine. You should be treated decently, you are a person and have worth.
But if you expect society to endorse an unwillingness on your part to shape up, then you are wrong.
Likewise, treating people like shit because they have a problem is generally also very wrong.
super fucking tolerant. I don't see how you're doing anything wrong.
edit:
So make them stop costing everyone else money. The choices are not a priori destined to fuck over those of us who don't make them.
my unofficial autobio will be accompanied with tips on how to smile
cause I've found that when they don't see you frown, they never know that you're a threat
and they don't sweat you when you came around
I mean, I have seen people who work incredibly hard and manage to have success. My mom, for example, lost at least 40 pounds on Weight Watchers. Ironically, though, even though she continues to be diligent about points and works out three times a week, she is still probably what most people would call overweight.
Actually if you balance your diet to where your calories burned are equal to or less than your calories ingested, you will not gain weight.
Yes, this means that some people need to push the plate away, avoid higher energy foods that their slow metabolisms won't accomodate, and even, especially for those already overweight, eat small meals and be hungry for a while until they get used to ingesting the calories they need instead of the calories they want/are used to.
But yes, for all but a tiny segment of the obese, it is a choice.
It's as much a choice as being indoctrinated from birth into a belief system is a choice. They are learned, trained behaviors.
Which has nothing to do with being fat.