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Fat Acceptance (No, I will not make you a sandwich)

necroSYSnecroSYS Registered User, ClubPA regular
edited April 2009 in Debate and/or Discourse
Props to Feral for recognizing this should be split into its own thread.
Feral wrote: »
necroSYS wrote: »
MrMister wrote: »
necroSYS wrote: »
She's so busy nattering for universal acceptance

Because yeah, fuck that.

... what?

Look, when we're talking about race, creed, color, sexual orientation, etc, I'm all for universal acceptance, believe me.

But if we're talking about universal acceptance for fat, wilfully-obtuse people, I'm going to be one of the angry protestors holding up a EAT A FUCKING SALAD, JESUS CHRIST signs.

I would love to talk to you about fat acceptance but I don't want to drag this thread off-topic. I invite you to start your own thread if you care about this subject enough to clutter up this thread with it.

Here's the basics:

Having been massively fat (like orca fat) and then getting in really awesome shape several years back (more than 5, which I guess qualifies me as a "freak of nature" in some eyes), I understand the whole inertia around obesity. I was a fat kid, I know what that was like.

But I also know enough about human physiognomy and exercise science to know that obesity is not a "valid lifestyle choice". If you want to be fat, fine. But don't expect society (which has to absorb most of the externalized costs of your choice) to love you for it.

necroSYS on
There's no point in you getting both of yourselves all worked up and ready to chart the undiscovered country, then having her flush crimson red, run to the bathroom, and spend twenty minutes straining and grunting and stressing out because you're all ready to deliver your package but there's a three inch thick Sunday paper clogging up the mail slot.
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Posts

  • mynameisguidomynameisguido Registered User regular
    edited March 2009
    Obviously a lot of people are fat because they're lazy, but I think there needs to be some general realization that it's not just a result of individuals deciding to be slothful, but at least partially because of way modern society (American especially) is set up.

    Personally, I'm glad I now live in a place where walking and using mass transit is a viable option, because I think the fact that often people have no exercise built into their lives due to sedentary jobs and driving everywhere is half the problem. To say nothing of all the foods stuffed with sugars/hcfs/etc.

    And just for reference sake I'm about 5'8", 200 lbs. I'm trying to get my weight under control, but lack of money (which means buying cheap food) and stress are working against me right now. I take some comfort in the fact that even in my late twenties I'm essentially the same build as I was when I was in college, but it's cold comfort.

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  • Element BrianElement Brian Registered User regular
    edited March 2009
    I dont really know alot about fitness, last June i was pretty overweight (5'10, 213 pounds.) and now I"m at 183, so I've lost 30 pounds in about 9 months, which, probably isn't that much.

    As far as I'm concerned though, my wii fit age is younger than my actual age, and thats all that really matters to me. That and my awesome pecs.

    The whole obese America thing is something I see everyday. Right now I'm waiting for my next semster of college to start and after looking fruitlessly for a job for a month, I settled with Mcdonalds. Since they give us free meals, it would be very easy to let things get out of hand. I could just not eat there, but free food is a plus for me, so every day for lunch I have a grilled chicken sandwich (only vegetables and BBQ sauce) on their wheat bun with apple slices and milk. So i feel pretty proud of myself.

    But then I have to watch the regulars come in, E V E R Y D A Y. Theres one family who comes through the drive thru ATLEAST once a day, and orders 4 large diet cokes. With Washington tax, that comes out to about 9.30 every time. Sometimes they come through a second time. I estimate that they spend rougly $3500 a year soley on Diet Coke. And I'm working at mcdonalds to barely make it through next semesters rent.

    Then theres the children, wont somebody please think of the children?? I'm the only person at my work who does this, but every damn time somebody orders a happy meal, I ask if they want fries( which I say in my dull unhappy voice) or if they want Apples! (with a bit more enthusiasum and umph).... Usually they choose fries.

    As far as I'm concerned, our obesity problem has one specific culprit. Stupid Parents. Seriously I don't think some people realize how much damage they are doing to their children by feeding them fries every day ( or multiple times a day in some cases.) It makes me sad.

    I like the idea of the carbonation in your pop being too much for your mormon body

    too worldly nooooo
  • ruzkinruzkin Registered User regular
    edited March 2009
    ElJeffe wrote: »
    Feral wrote: »
    ruzkin wrote: »
    I've worked as a personal trainer and getting a client from hugely obese to that sweet maintainable spot called "curvy and cute" is not that hard.

    Some people would consider "curvy and cute" to be "obese."

    "Obese" is a clinical term, so these people are wrong and probably stupid.

    Indeed. A lot of people also don't realise how difficult it can be to lose the last 5-10 extra kilos, because many gyms continue to push cardio as a weight-loss method when in truth treadmills don't do dick for your weight-loss above what you'd lose just walking a kilometre to the bus stop.

    You can be healthy and strong with a bit of a tummy, but there is no excuse for choosing to remain obese. Kudos to all people who decide to get fit when they're extremely obese, because it's a tough starting position. But it can be done.

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  • PowerpuppiesPowerpuppies Registered User regular
    edited March 2009
    Preacher wrote: »
    Nah obesity in a way is worse than alcoholism, barring extreme circumstances you don't have to drink, you have to eat something.

    Interesting point. One might even say that a difficult option alcoholics have, that of going cold turkey, is denied to fat people, who have to eat to live, but have trouble stopping at a reasonable amount.

    edit:
    ruzkin wrote: »
    Indeed. A lot of people also don't realise how difficult it can be to lose the last 5-10 extra kilos, because many gyms continue to push cardio as a weight-loss method when in truth treadmills don't do dick for your weight-loss above what you'd lose just walking a kilometre to the bus stop.

    You can be healthy and strong with a bit of a tummy, but there is no excuse for choosing to remain obese. Kudos to all people who decide to get fit when they're extremely obese, because it's a tough starting position. But it can be done.

    I don't get this. Why can't someone choose to remain obese? What if they like food?

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  • Wonder_HippieWonder_Hippie __BANNED USERS
    edited March 2009
    One thing many people in this thread don't seem to understand that food addiction - actual, real food addiction - is much, much harder control than most other addictions. An no point do you have to smoke. At no point do you have to have a drink. At no point does that needle have to dip into the vein.

    You have to eat every day. It's one of the most difficult addictions to treat purely because of that.

    Spoiler:
  • DuffelDuffel Registered User regular
    edited March 2009
    I personally try not to say much about fat people. It's just about common courtesy to me; even the most beautiful people have some flaws that it would be rude to point out or disparage. Also, any of us could end up in the proverbial Vanilla Sky car accident where we end up more hideous and disfigured than any "fat person" and would expect others to not disparage us.

    That said, the idea of "fat acceptance" in my mind is dumb and unhealthy. As I said, I'm not going to disparage anyone, personally, for being overweight, because it's just rude and unkind. But people who actually try to claim that being fat is a valid "lifestyle choice" and others shouldn't be allowed to say it's bad? Yes, it is bad, just like smoking is bad or taking shots at 8 in the morning is bad. Teaching society that "fat is unhealthy" is a far cry from "you suck for being fat", and the former needs to be taught, loud and clear, because it's a rapidly-growing problem. Focus on childhood education, open up gyms, get community programs started. Otherwise we're going to be paying the price later on - all of us.

    That said, I think we need somewhat looser standards for "fat". I remember people criticizing Britney Spears' abysmal VMA performance on the grounds that she was "fat". No. She was intoxicated, embarassing, woefully underprepared and a general laughingstock, but fat she was not, and anybody that thinks a 30-year-old woman who weighs 140 lbs is "fat" has their head up their ass.

  • LeitnerLeitner Registered User regular
    edited March 2009
    I've noticed a fair number of feminist writers are also fans of fat acceptance. I can kinda see where it's coming from (not judged on looks, women treated harsher than women for same level of obesity), but I have to say I'm really not a fan of the conflation. It leads to ridiculous comments such as ‘skinny women can’t be feminists’. I wish that wasn’t a serious quote from a respected feminist writer, but there you go. It’s damaging in the long run, we want to encourage a healthy view of food – eat what you want is just as dangerous as seeing food as a guilty pleasure (ugh I hate that shit), and paying attention to your health. I’d wager obesity is a far greater threat to your average girl than anorexia, especially so in the US and UK. Man or woman, paying attention to your body is something to be held aloft.

    As for the overweight, they can change it. Don’t give me any of that bullshit. I used to be skinny, ridiculously so due to an extent to actual health reasons. I didn’t mope about how hard life was, I started trying to eat right and working out. And guess what? Shockingly it worked. Whilst I haven’t reached my ideal weight or level of health, I’m slowly getting there. I mean I've passed 200lb which was a big milestone for me.

    Now this brings up the question of why should be criticise those in poor health? This is a difficult question, I still check myself for what true motive might lie there – my unexamined subtle prejudices. I think it is because I can’t comprehend people actually being happy to live a as self imposed cripples. That they can stay in such a state. I think modern circumstance drives them there. And that they need the encouragement to escape those pitfalls. Insults and derision may not be the best way to do this (to say the least). This doesn’t mean that we should tell people it’s okay to be so afflicted. I think that’s an awful message to send to people. Rather we should send the opposite one, if you aren’t Apollo that’s fine, just aim for it with what time and effort you can set aside.

    I mean sure, if someone is well and truly happy to be obese or anorexic, good for them, I find it real hard to believe such people exist in any notable number though.

  • PreacherPreacher Registered User regular
    edited March 2009
    Preacher wrote: »
    Nah obesity in a way is worse than alcoholism, barring extreme circumstances you don't have to drink, you have to eat something.

    Interesting point. One might even say that a difficult option alcoholics have, that of going cold turkey, is denied to fat people, who have to eat to live, but have trouble stopping at a reasonable amount.

    It is an issue, and why dieting alone is set to fail for most people. Changing your diet is important, but you need to exercise on top of it because exercise takes away one of the things that leads to obesity, being sedentary. By virtue of getting off your ass you can't be taking in empty calories at least while your exercising (well barring drinking soda/beer/having a sandwhich set up).

  • necroSYSnecroSYS Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited March 2009
    Zimmydoom wrote: »
    Drez wrote: »
    I'm not sure I understand what the thread is about. Is it about not being a dick to people, or is it about accepting obesity as a disability? Because I certainly don't think it's right to look down at or disparage people because they are obese. That's dickish. However, I also don't think obesity is a disability unless you actually have some kind of biochemical impairment that leads to obesity.

    What about clinical depression, bipolar disorder, post-traumatic stress disorder, body dysmorphic disorder, or any number of other psychological conditions that cause people to overeat or spurn exercise?

    I don't think that clinical obesity should be treated as harmless, but this attitude of "I don't have any problem with fat people, but seriously fuck fat people." is extremely disturbing. How the fuck is it permissible to tell someone "it's OK that you're unacceptably disgusting, so long as you have a doctor's note"?

    Obesity is a real, serious medical condition that should be treated with as much sympathy and care as any debilitating disease. Enablers, people who advocate eschewing treatment in lieu of some bullshit egalitarian crusade against looksism deserve to be called out for the harm they're doing, but that harm is absolutely inconsequential compared to the damage caused by this attitude of "sit up or shut up."

    I'm not pointing the finger at any one person, I just thought Drez's post was a good jumping-off place for the point I wanted to make. Honestly the sentiment behind this whole thread makes me slightly ill.

    All of those things are reasons you can put on weight. But exercise is a good treatment for clinical depression, bipolar disorder, etc. I'm not going all Tom Cruise on you here. I don't think vitamins and exercise are the ONLY treatments for those things, but I'm saying they are not magic cards you can wave in the air to explain everything.

    There are reasons every fat person is fat. That doesn't mean they can't get in better shape if they don't want to.

    Besides, the point of this thread isn't "fuck fat people". It's "fuck the fat acceptance movement." I don't accept that poor lifestyle choices that are going to negatively impact a huge segment of the population are a good idea. I don't accept that lifestyle choices which are going to cost everyone else money are just fine. and dandy.

    There's no point in you getting both of yourselves all worked up and ready to chart the undiscovered country, then having her flush crimson red, run to the bathroom, and spend twenty minutes straining and grunting and stressing out because you're all ready to deliver your package but there's a three inch thick Sunday paper clogging up the mail slot.
  • KyouguKyougu Registered User regular
    edited March 2009
    Another former fat guy here, lost 70 pounds and still aiming for more. At the moment I think I'm average size at 194, but ironically I think I'm only average because this country has become heavier.

    I hate piling it on, but losing weight for 90% of the people is not that hard. It takes will power, yeah, but it's not impossible. I LOVE to eat, and I actually didn't change my diet drastically. I naturally stopped eating out at fast food as much as I used to, but I still eat meat, chicken, and what not. It's all about moderation. And of course, excercise.

    Something that stuck with me is that when a lot of people would see me during my early weight loss, they would ask me if I had gotten sick, or what crazy diet I had gone through. People were basically surprised that you could lose weight through simple hard work, and I think that's at the root of the obesity problem here in America.

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  • DalbozDalboz Resident Puppy Eater Right behind you...Registered User regular
    edited March 2009
    The main problem is that I think there's a bit of a fine line that's being walked here. While obesity is clearly unhealthy and can lead to rising healthcare costs, there's also the health nazis who seem to think that they have a right to judge someone if they have a few extra pounds on them or make other choices. The whole "fat people should be a protected class" thing is ridiculous, but I also think that some of this a backlash to another class attempting to mandate healthy lifestyles, not mention a bit of a backlash from a few years ago when the big scare all over the news was the rising incidence of eating disorders like anorexia and bulimia, supposedly from teens deriving a body image from Hollywood.

    Let's be honest: A few extra pounds won't kill you. And I reserve the right to have an occasional hamburger, or a drink, or a smoke because it's my choice. People have a right to choose the kind of life they want to live so long as they understand the consequences of such choices. Sure, the occasional drink or a smoke might take a couple years off the end of my life, but I would rather keep a balance and enjoy the life I've got rather than live to be 120 years old and hate every single day of it. For the record, I'm 5'11" and about 180 to 185 pounds. I've got a few extra pounds, but I've had several physicals and my doctor has confirmed that I'm perfectly healthy. But if you ask someone like my grandmother, she'll make snide little remarks dictating to me what she think I should look like and that I'm obese, because she knows what makes her happy and therefore it makes everyone happy whether they like it or not. Again, health nazi.

    In short, maintain a balance.

  • necroSYSnecroSYS Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited March 2009
    ElJeffe wrote: »
    Feral wrote: »
    ruzkin wrote: »
    I've worked as a personal trainer and getting a client from hugely obese to that sweet maintainable spot called "curvy and cute" is not that hard.

    Some people would consider "curvy and cute" to be "obese."

    "Obese" is a clinical term, so these people are wrong and probably stupid.

    They are probably referring to the BMI definition of obesity. The only good thing the fat acceptance movement has done is to increase awareness that BMI is bullshit.

    I'm considered obese if I'm 6'3" and 260 lbs of pure ripped muscle.

    There's no point in you getting both of yourselves all worked up and ready to chart the undiscovered country, then having her flush crimson red, run to the bathroom, and spend twenty minutes straining and grunting and stressing out because you're all ready to deliver your package but there's a three inch thick Sunday paper clogging up the mail slot.
  • PowerpuppiesPowerpuppies Registered User regular
    edited March 2009
    Leitner wrote: »
    I've noticed a fair number of feminist writers are also fans of fat acceptance. I can kinda see where it's coming from (not judged on looks, women treated harsher than women for same level of obesity), but I have to say I'm really not a fan of the conflation. It leads to ridiculous comments such as ‘skinny women can’t be feminists’. I wish that wasn’t a serious quote from a respected feminist writer, but there you go. It’s damaging in the long run, we want to encourage a healthy view of food – eat what you want is just as dangerous as seeing food as a guilty pleasure (ugh I hate that shit), and paying attention to your health. I’d wager obesity is a far greater threat to your average girl than anorexia, especially so in the US and UK. Man or woman, paying attention to your body is something to be held aloft.

    As for the overweight, they can change it. Don’t give me any of that bullshit. I used to be skinny, ridiculously so due to an extent to actual health reasons. I didn’t mope about how hard life was, I started trying to eat right and working out. And guess what? Shockingly it worked. Whilst I haven’t reached my ideal weight or level of health, I’m slowly getting there. I mean I've passed 200lb which was a big milestone for me.

    Now this brings up the question of why should be criticise those in poor health? This is a difficult question, I still check myself for what true motive might lie there – my unexamined subtle prejudices. I think it is because I can’t comprehend people actually being happy to live a as self imposed cripples. That they can stay in such a state. I think modern circumstance drives them there. And that they need the encouragement to escape those pitfalls. Insults and derision may not be the best way to do this (to say the least). This doesn’t mean that we should tell people it’s okay to be so afflicted. I think that’s an awful message to send to people. Rather we should send the opposite one, if you aren’t Apollo that’s fine, just aim for it with what time and effort you can set aside.

    I mean sure, if someone is well and truly happy to be obese or anorexic, good for them, I find it real hard to believe such people exist in any notable number though.

    An interesting, thoughtful post. But I think your last sentence needs to be included in some form in any sending of the bolded message. I don't have much trouble believing that people are happy to be obese, but even if I did, is that a valid reason to tell those who are that they need to lose weight?

    Edit: My grandmother is a bit of a medical mystery in that doctor's can't explain why she can't lose weight. She was on a ridiculously harsh calorie restriction diet with hours of exercise a day, and only lost a pound, despite being visibly obese. I'm sure such cases are rare, but they do exist, and I think they serve as a valid reminder that fat people aren't hurting anybody by being fat. It's a lifestyle choice I don't agree with, but there's nothing wrong with it until you start asking everyone else to subsidize your obesity through medical bills or something else.

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  • ZimmydoomZimmydoom Registered User
    edited March 2009
    Drez wrote: »
    Spoiler:

    Yeah, I didn't think you were being particularly unreasonable. I just thought it was an important point to make, because I think a lot of people use "OK, if you really have a glandular problem then I guess I can be less of a bigot" as a kind of token attempt at political correctness. Weight issues aren't just caused by laziness and/or a fucked up thyroid. If someone is clinically depressed and that causes them to overeat this does not make them a bad person. In many cases being overweight can trigger depression, so the issue needs to be handled delicately. I don't think it would be controversial to assume that most people, when faced with their own obesity, will "drown their sorrows" in comfort food, further compounding their condition.

    Some people are just fucking lazy. I've met more than a few of them, and I've read the riot act to a couple of my friends for their binge eating habits, but in each case I bookended my concerns with supportive language and a careful tone. But overweight people are not fundamentally defective just because they respond differently to stress.

    I think I'm so sensitive to this partly because I'm on the opposite end of the spectrum, and have spent almost my whole live dangerously underweight. I know from personal experience that being too tired to cook /= too lazy to eat right. Even trying to walk downstairs when my blood pressure is spiking can be terrifying, and the last time I tried doing free weights my shoulder ratcheted painfully eight times with each lift. I've been called ugly, lazy, weak, and worthless for looking drawn and sickly, despite doing everything I knew how to keep weight on. My body just reacts to stress differently; I came back from Japan eating 2800 calories a day with 96 pounds on my 5'8" frame.

    I don't want to equivocate and try to claim that my experiences with ostracism are equal to or the same as those suffered by people who are overweight despite their best efforts. But I do know what its like to be snickered at for my weight, and it's not just because I lack self control.

    Better-than-birthday-sig!
    Spoiler:
  • LeitnerLeitner Registered User regular
    edited March 2009
    necroSYS wrote: »
    ElJeffe wrote: »
    Feral wrote: »
    ruzkin wrote: »
    I've worked as a personal trainer and getting a client from hugely obese to that sweet maintainable spot called "curvy and cute" is not that hard.

    Some people would consider "curvy and cute" to be "obese."

    "Obese" is a clinical term, so these people are wrong and probably stupid.

    They are probably referring to the BMI definition of obesity. The only good thing the fat acceptance movement has done is to increase awareness that BMI is bullshit.

    I'm considered obese if I'm 6'3" and 260 lbs of pure ripped muscle.

    BMI is a measure of populations, which it works fine as. Yeah you might be arnie, but is your average person at that weight going to be any such thing? (Outside of like Somans)

    Though yes, it as a measure of personal fitness is quite clearly ridiculous.

  • ruzkinruzkin Registered User regular
    edited March 2009
    i hate the excuse "WELL HE/SHE CAN'T HELP IT, IT'S A DISORDER/BAD GENES/ METABOLISM THING!"
    fuck YOU, it doesn't matter to me WHY that person's obese.
    it's not okay to be obese, it's bad for you and everyone around you. it's not like your friend is the only person with this 'magical uncurable' mojo to explain away their fatness. and you believing it is only encouraging the fatass sadsack.

    o_O

    I weigh 150 and look like a fucking stick. Nevertheless, I don't understand why people don't have the right to get as fat as they want. And I don't understand why anyone has the right to object.

    Edit: Also, what Jinto and ElJeffe said.

    Man, it's your tax money paying for their medical treatment. When I see the annual federal budget each year, I cheer increased funding to hospitals because I imagine that money helping people with terminal illnesses, people with serious mental conditions, children with leukemia, etc etc. Then I realise that, every year, a significant portion of it goes to help obese people who are content to remain the way they are.

    Ambulance fleets are being remodeled to accomodate the morbidly obese. Hospital doorways are being widened. Oh, and have you read about how morbidly obese women in both the US and Australia are getting pregnant but refusing to lose weight during pregnancy, thus endangering their unborn children?

    Being obese is not something that anyone should be content with. It doesn't mean that obese people should be treated with scorn, but we can't be complacent about it either. "Oh, it's not hurting anyone." Well, yes, it is.

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  • ViolentChemistryViolentChemistry __BANNED USERS
    edited March 2009
    It is pretty easy to tell if you are in poor health without looking at weight. If you are in poor health, you should seek to improve your health. If you don't, okay, no one can really force you to, but don't expect people to go out of their way to accommodate your decision not to maintain your health. I mean unless you pay them to or something and they agree to said transaction. Note, being of low weight doesn't mean you're in good health.

    DAMM
    Drunks Against Mad Mothers
  • Wonder_HippieWonder_Hippie __BANNED USERS
    edited March 2009
    Where's Windbit.

    Spoiler:
  • ZimmydoomZimmydoom Registered User
    edited March 2009
    It is pretty easy to tell if you are in poor health without looking at weight. If you are in poor health, you should seek to improve your health. If you don't, okay, no one can really force you to, but don't expect people to go out of their way to accommodate your decision not to maintain your health. I mean unless you pay them to or something and they agree to said transaction. Note, being of low weight doesn't mean you're in good health.

    <---- Exhibit A

    Better-than-birthday-sig!
    Spoiler:
  • PowerpuppiesPowerpuppies Registered User regular
    edited March 2009
    ruzkin wrote: »
    i hate the excuse "WELL HE/SHE CAN'T HELP IT, IT'S A DISORDER/BAD GENES/ METABOLISM THING!"
    fuck YOU, it doesn't matter to me WHY that person's obese.
    it's not okay to be obese, it's bad for you and everyone around you. it's not like your friend is the only person with this 'magical uncurable' mojo to explain away their fatness. and you believing it is only encouraging the fatass sadsack.

    o_O

    I weigh 150 and look like a fucking stick. Nevertheless, I don't understand why people don't have the right to get as fat as they want. And I don't understand why anyone has the right to object.

    Edit: Also, what Jinto and ElJeffe said.

    Man, it's your tax money paying for their medical treatment. When I see the annual federal budget each year, I cheer increased funding to hospitals because I imagine that money helping people with terminal illnesses, people with serious mental conditions, children with leukemia, etc etc. Then I realise that, every year, a significant portion of it goes to help obese people who are content to remain the way they are.

    Ambulance fleets are being remodeled to accomodate the morbidly obese. Hospital doorways are being widened. Oh, and have you read about how morbidly obese women in both the US and Australia are getting pregnant but refusing to lose weight during pregnancy, thus endangering their unborn children?

    Being obese is not something that anyone should be content with. It doesn't mean that obese people should be treated with scorn, but we can't be complacent about it either. "Oh, it's not hurting anyone." Well, yes, it is.

    No, no it fucking isn't. Being obese while pregnant may be hurting somebody. Fine. Don't give a free pass to pregnant obese people. Being obese and asking the government to accommodate you may be hurting somebody. Fine. Don't have the government spend money on those accommodations. But there's nothing fucking wrong with being fat!

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  • KalTorakKalTorak Registered User regular
    edited March 2009
    Where's Windbit.

    He can't decide whether he likes this thread for the right reasons or not.

  • LoserForHireXLoserForHireX Registered User regular
    edited March 2009
    Here's my only question. What about me?

    I'm 6'2", and about 230-240. I'm overweight, and have been for a few years now. I recently lost a bit (so I might very well be under 230) due to changing my diet. However, I love food. I honestly think that food is one of the most wonderful things that human beings can experience, and I love to eat. Now, I don't eat constantly, and I try to eat in a relatively healthy manner (which means I cook a lot instead of eating junk food). I'm pretty committed to being overweight for the rest of my life. I hate exercising, and I refuse to give up one of the greatest pleasures in my life in order to lose a few pounds. I also have a tolerable level of fatness for myself, and I reached that (what prompted the cutting of sugared sodas out of the diet) and I wont reach it again.

    The question is though, how tolerant should we be of my kind of mentality? I wouldn't really say that I'm obese (at least not a lot) but I don't really want to be fit and healthy either (and I probably wont ever be). Is it okay to do things that are unhealthy even knowing that I might be more sick when I'm older or die sooner?

    "The only way to get rid of a temptation is to give into it." - Oscar Wilde
    "We believe in the people and their 'wisdom' as if there was some special secret entrance to knowledge that barred to anyone who had ever learned anything." - Friedrich Neitzsche
  • Regina FongRegina Fong Allons-y, Alonso Registered User regular
    edited March 2009
    Part of the genuine thing about the fat acceptance nonsense (and it is generally nonsense is rooted in the reality that treating the obese like lepers, accusing them of failing as humans and heaping scorn upon them for a failure of willpower doesn't help.

    The flip-side to that (and the reason the movement is mostly nonsense now) is that going to the opposite extreme and preaching that obesity is a lifestyle choice, that all sizes are "OK" and "nobody should change who they are" "everyone is beautiful" etc. well, none of that helps people lose weight either.

    As soon as you've abandoned the mindset that obesity is a problem, and it needs to be overcome, you have entered the land of fatty-fatty-crazyville.

    So if you are fat and want to be treated decently, that's fine. You should be treated decently, you are a person and have worth.

    But if you expect society to endorse an unwillingness on your part to shape up, then you are wrong.

    Likewise, treating people like shit because they have a problem is generally also very wrong.

  • FeralFeral Who needs a medical license when you've got style? Registered User regular
    edited March 2009
    necroSYS wrote: »
    Besides, the point of this thread isn't "fuck fat people". It's "fuck the fat acceptance movement." I don't accept that poor lifestyle choices that are going to negatively impact a huge segment of the population are a good idea. I don't accept that lifestyle choices which are going to cost everyone else money are just fine. and dandy.
    “One of the first obstacles to fat acceptance is breaking down the question of whether being fat is a choice,” Kate Harding, founder of the blog Shapely Prose, said in an interview. “No fat acceptance advocate is saying you should sit around and wildly overeat. What we’re saying is that exercise and a balanced diet do not make everyone thin.”

    every person who doesn't like an acquired taste always seems to think everyone who likes it is faking it. it should be an official fallacy.
    the "no true scotch, man" fallacy.
  • PowerpuppiesPowerpuppies Registered User regular
    edited March 2009
    Here's my only question. What about me?

    I'm 6'2", and about 230-240. I'm overweight, and have been for a few years now. I recently lost a bit (so I might very well be under 230) due to changing my diet. However, I love food. I honestly think that food is one of the most wonderful things that human beings can experience, and I love to eat. Now, I don't eat constantly, and I try to eat in a relatively healthy manner (which means I cook a lot instead of eating junk food). I'm pretty committed to being overweight for the rest of my life. I hate exercising, and I refuse to give up one of the greatest pleasures in my life in order to lose a few pounds. I also have a tolerable level of fatness for myself, and I reached that (what prompted the cutting of sugared sodas out of the diet) and I wont reach it again.

    The question is though, how tolerant should we be of my kind of mentality? I wouldn't really say that I'm obese (at least not a lot) but I don't really want to be fit and healthy either (and I probably wont ever be). Is it okay to do things that are unhealthy even knowing that I might be more sick when I'm older or die sooner?

    super fucking tolerant. I don't see how you're doing anything wrong.

    edit:
    necroSYS wrote: »
    Besides, the point of this thread isn't "fuck fat people". It's "fuck the fat acceptance movement." I don't accept that poor lifestyle choices that are going to negatively impact a huge segment of the population are a good idea. I don't accept that lifestyle choices which are going to cost everyone else money are just fine. and dandy.

    So make them stop costing everyone else money. The choices are not a priori destined to fuck over those of us who don't make them.

    sig.gif
  • Eat it You Nasty Pig.Eat it You Nasty Pig. tell homeland security 'we are the bomb'Registered User regular
    edited March 2009
    Obesity inhabits a wacky space culturally because it's one of the few negative, personal issues that it's seemingly okay to mock people about. Cigarette smoking is sort of moving into this space, as well.

    gkcmatch_zps97480250.jpg
    if the rapture don't come cousin, then pass the guns
    I'll burn'em for the return of my investment funds
  • mynameisguidomynameisguido Registered User regular
    edited March 2009
    I think a lot of people who are obese/overweight are perfectly willing to try and get more healthy but who won't get their either because of a lack of a good support group, lack of good information or a lack of resources or time to get in better shape.

    I mean, I have seen people who work incredibly hard and manage to have success. My mom, for example, lost at least 40 pounds on Weight Watchers. Ironically, though, even though she continues to be diligent about points and works out three times a week, she is still probably what most people would call overweight.

    steam_sig.png
  • Regina FongRegina Fong Allons-y, Alonso Registered User regular
    edited March 2009
    Feral wrote: »
    “No fat acceptance advocate is saying you should sit around and wildly overeat. What we’re saying is that exercise and a balanced diet do not make everyone thin.”

    Actually if you balance your diet to where your calories burned are equal to or less than your calories ingested, you will not gain weight.

    Yes, this means that some people need to push the plate away, avoid higher energy foods that their slow metabolisms won't accomodate, and even, especially for those already overweight, eat small meals and be hungry for a while until they get used to ingesting the calories they need instead of the calories they want/are used to.

    But yes, for all but a tiny segment of the obese, it is a choice.

  • Wonder_HippieWonder_Hippie __BANNED USERS
    edited March 2009
    jeepguy wrote: »
    Feral wrote: »
    “No fat acceptance advocate is saying you should sit around and wildly overeat. What we’re saying is that exercise and a balanced diet do not make everyone thin.”

    Actually if you balance your diet to where your calories burned are equal to or less than your calories ingested, you will not gain weight.

    Yes, this means that some people need to push the plate away, avoid higher energy foods that their slow metabolisms won't accomodate, and even, especially for those already overweight, eat small meals and be hungry for a while until they get used to ingesting the calories they need instead of the calories they want/are used to.

    But yes, for all but a tiny segment of the obese, it is a choice.

    It's as much a choice as being indoctrinated from birth into a belief system is a choice. They are learned, trained behaviors.

    Spoiler:
  • Beren39Beren39 Registered User regular
    edited March 2009
    I'm 6'3 and I weigh 180 pounds, I'm a varsity swimmer and a cross-country runner, I've been in pretty good shape most of my life. That being said, while of course a large portion of this is due to will power, much of this is a credit to my parents, who instilled within me a love of physical activity and healthy eating habits. Such things were deemed as essential as reading to me and generally stimulating my mind. In addition, my mother is gluten sensitive (no white grain etc) which, along with a sluggish liver and a myriad of other issues, has sculpted my diet for most of my life. I can't really take complete credit for my current physical health, as their influence is pivotal. In much the same way, how can I point an accusatory figure at obese persons? Along with the valid points mentioned before (hate the movement, not the person) much of these disastrous and self-destructive habits, particularly in this generation, have been generated through parental apathy and miseducation. In much the same way habitual criminals are given sympathy and understanding due to an abusive childhood (not saying fat people are criminals, definitely not a parallel situation in substance) why not realize that many obese people are working through some very ingrained and conditioned responses and habits.

    Go, Go, EXCALIBUR! - Trent Varsity Swim Team 2009, better watch out for me Phelps!
    camo_sig.png
  • FeralFeral Who needs a medical license when you've got style? Registered User regular
    edited March 2009
    jeepguy wrote: »
    Feral wrote: »
    “No fat acceptance advocate is saying you should sit around and wildly overeat. What we’re saying is that exercise and a balanced diet do not make everyone thin.”

    Actually if you balance your diet to where your calories burned are equal to or less than your calories ingested, you will not gain weight.

    Which has nothing to do with being fat.

    every person who doesn't like an acquired taste always seems to think everyone who likes it is faking it. it should be an official fallacy.
    the "no true scotch, man" fallacy.
  • ViolentChemistryViolentChemistry __BANNED USERS
    edited March 2009
    Oh and incidentally guys, hardcore body-building also results in heart problems.

    DAMM
    Drunks Against Mad Mothers
  • Regina FongRegina Fong Allons-y, Alonso Registered User regular
    edited March 2009
    jeepguy wrote: »
    Feral wrote: »
    “No fat acceptance advocate is saying you should sit around and wildly overeat. What we’re saying is that exercise and a balanced diet do not make everyone thin.”

    Actually if you balance your diet to where your calories burned are equal to or less than your calories ingested, you will not gain weight.

    Yes, this means that some people need to push the plate away, avoid higher energy foods that their slow metabolisms won't accomodate, and even, especially for those already overweight, eat small meals and be hungry for a while until they get used to ingesting the calories they need instead of the calories they want/are used to.

    But yes, for all but a tiny segment of the obese, it is a choice.

    It's as much a choice as being indoctrinated from birth into a belief system is a choice. They are learned, trained behaviors.


    I never said it was easy, or something that most can do without assistance. But the only government accommodation for the obese should really be treatment and programs to help them not be obese anymore. Even a moderate amount of weight lost on an obese person will result in improved health for them, it's not some zero sum game where you must be marathon-runner lean or you might as well be a whale.

  • ViolentChemistryViolentChemistry __BANNED USERS
    edited March 2009
    I was reminded because someone mentioned Arnold.

    DAMM
    Drunks Against Mad Mothers
  • Regina FongRegina Fong Allons-y, Alonso Registered User regular
    edited March 2009
    Feral wrote: »
    jeepguy wrote: »
    Feral wrote: »
    “No fat acceptance advocate is saying you should sit around and wildly overeat. What we’re saying is that exercise and a balanced diet do not make everyone thin.”

    Actually if you balance your diet to where your calories burned are equal to or less than your calories ingested, you will not gain weight.

    Which has nothing to do with being fat.

    Don't be delusional, it has everything to do with being fat. Fat people are people who at some point ingested more calories per day than they expended, usually over a long period of time. The only solution lies with them doing the reverse of this, and being hungry sucks so most of them don't want to do it.

  • KalTorakKalTorak Registered User regular
    edited March 2009
    Oh and incidentally guys, hardcore body-building also results in heart problems.

    Most activities are harmful if done in excess.

  • ZimmydoomZimmydoom Registered User
    edited March 2009
    Dyscord wrote: »
    Obesity inhabits a wacky space culturally because it's one of the few negative, personal issues that it's seemingly okay to mock people about. Cigarette smoking is sort of moving into this space, as well.

    I'm actually all for making fun of people's differences. I firmly believe that central to any real attempt at self-improvement is looking at your flaws with good humor. But just because I can joke about being sick doesn't mean I want my illness to dominate every conversation I am a part of, and it doesn't mean that there isn't a line and a point where I'll stop laughing at myself and start calling you an insensitive dickface for bringing it up.

    Getting someone who is fat to honestly laugh at themselves is probably one of the healthiest things you can do for them. It lightens the burden, and turns their heft from something shameful into something humanizing, which is absolutely critical for anyone who actually wants to lose weight instead of just burying their misery under an avalanche of deep-fried twinkies. But getting them to laugh at themselves does not mean getting other people in the room to laugh at them, and it's not something you try with someone who doesn't know you well or trust you personally.

    Better-than-birthday-sig!
    Spoiler:
  • Wonder_HippieWonder_Hippie __BANNED USERS
    edited March 2009
    jeepguy wrote: »
    jeepguy wrote: »
    Feral wrote: »
    “No fat acceptance advocate is saying you should sit around and wildly overeat. What we’re saying is that exercise and a balanced diet do not make everyone thin.”

    Actually if you balance your diet to where your calories burned are equal to or less than your calories ingested, you will not gain weight.

    Yes, this means that some people need to push the plate away, avoid higher energy foods that their slow metabolisms won't accomodate, and even, especially for those already overweight, eat small meals and be hungry for a while until they get used to ingesting the calories they need instead of the calories they want/are used to.

    But yes, for all but a tiny segment of the obese, it is a choice.

    It's as much a choice as being indoctrinated from birth into a belief system is a choice. They are learned, trained behaviors.


    I never said it was easy, or something that most can do without assistance. But the only government accommodation for the obese should really be treatment and programs to help them not be obese anymore. Even a moderate amount of weight lost on an obese person will result in improved health for them, it's not some zero sum game where you must be marathon-runner lean or you might as well be a whale.

    Read what I said again. For the vast majority of overweight people, it is not a choice.

    fat_kid.jpg

    It is not a choice for these kids. Even if we just ignore the genetic and biological aspects of obesity, calling it a choice is just plain fucking offensive.

    Spoiler:
  • JHunzJHunz Registered User regular
    edited March 2009
    necroSYS wrote: »
    Besides, the point of this thread isn't "fuck fat people". It's "fuck the fat acceptance movement." I don't accept that poor lifestyle choices that are going to negatively impact a huge segment of the population are a good idea. I don't accept that lifestyle choices which are going to cost everyone else money are just fine. and dandy.

    So make them stop costing everyone else money. The choices are not a priori destined to fuck over those of us who don't make them.
    You are aware that you are being ridiculous, right? The way to make people stop costing the health care system more money is to make them healthier. Being obese is not healthy. It has been proven repeatedly to be a factor in a huge number of health issues.
    You can't just wave a magic wand and make these costs go away, unless you are advocating that obese people not receive medical treatment.

    bunny.gif Gamertag: JHunz. R.I.P. Mygamercard.net bunny.gif
  • DuffelDuffel Registered User regular
    edited March 2009
    Read what I said again. For the vast majority of overweight people, it is not a choice.

    fat_kid.jpg

    It is not a choice for these kids. Even if we just ignore the genetic and biological aspects of obesity, calling it a choice is just plain fucking offensive.
    How is this not child abuse?

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