Our new Indie Games subforum is now open for business in G&T. Go and check it out, you might land a code for a free game. If you're developing an indie game and want to post about it, follow these directions. If you don't, he'll break your legs! Hahaha! Seriously though.
Our rules have been updated and given their own forum. Go and look at them! They are nice, and there may be new ones that you didn't know about! Hooray for rules! Hooray for The System! Hooray for Conforming!

Fat Acceptance (No, I will not make you a sandwich)

2456762

Posts

  • Beren39Beren39 Registered User regular
    edited March 2009
    I'm 6'3 and I weigh 180 pounds, I'm a varsity swimmer and a cross-country runner, I've been in pretty good shape most of my life. That being said, while of course a large portion of this is due to will power, much of this is a credit to my parents, who instilled within me a love of physical activity and healthy eating habits. Such things were deemed as essential as reading to me and generally stimulating my mind. In addition, my mother is gluten sensitive (no white grain etc) which, along with a sluggish liver and a myriad of other issues, has sculpted my diet for most of my life. I can't really take complete credit for my current physical health, as their influence is pivotal. In much the same way, how can I point an accusatory figure at obese persons? Along with the valid points mentioned before (hate the movement, not the person) much of these disastrous and self-destructive habits, particularly in this generation, have been generated through parental apathy and miseducation. In much the same way habitual criminals are given sympathy and understanding due to an abusive childhood (not saying fat people are criminals, definitely not a parallel situation in substance) why not realize that many obese people are working through some very ingrained and conditioned responses and habits.

    Go, Go, EXCALIBUR! - Trent Varsity Swim Team 2009, better watch out for me Phelps!
    camo_sig.png
  • FeralFeral Who needs a medical license when you've got style? Registered User regular
    edited March 2009
    jeepguy wrote: »
    Feral wrote: »
    “No fat acceptance advocate is saying you should sit around and wildly overeat. What we’re saying is that exercise and a balanced diet do not make everyone thin.”

    Actually if you balance your diet to where your calories burned are equal to or less than your calories ingested, you will not gain weight.

    Which has nothing to do with being fat.

    every person who doesn't like an acquired taste always seems to think everyone who likes it is faking it. it should be an official fallacy.
    the "no true scotch, man" fallacy.
  • ViolentChemistryViolentChemistry __BANNED USERS
    edited March 2009
    Oh and incidentally guys, hardcore body-building also results in heart problems.

    DAMM
    Drunks Against Mad Mothers
  • Regina FongRegina Fong Allons-y, Alonso Registered User regular
    edited March 2009
    jeepguy wrote: »
    Feral wrote: »
    “No fat acceptance advocate is saying you should sit around and wildly overeat. What we’re saying is that exercise and a balanced diet do not make everyone thin.”

    Actually if you balance your diet to where your calories burned are equal to or less than your calories ingested, you will not gain weight.

    Yes, this means that some people need to push the plate away, avoid higher energy foods that their slow metabolisms won't accomodate, and even, especially for those already overweight, eat small meals and be hungry for a while until they get used to ingesting the calories they need instead of the calories they want/are used to.

    But yes, for all but a tiny segment of the obese, it is a choice.

    It's as much a choice as being indoctrinated from birth into a belief system is a choice. They are learned, trained behaviors.


    I never said it was easy, or something that most can do without assistance. But the only government accommodation for the obese should really be treatment and programs to help them not be obese anymore. Even a moderate amount of weight lost on an obese person will result in improved health for them, it's not some zero sum game where you must be marathon-runner lean or you might as well be a whale.

  • ViolentChemistryViolentChemistry __BANNED USERS
    edited March 2009
    I was reminded because someone mentioned Arnold.

    DAMM
    Drunks Against Mad Mothers
  • Regina FongRegina Fong Allons-y, Alonso Registered User regular
    edited March 2009
    Feral wrote: »
    jeepguy wrote: »
    Feral wrote: »
    “No fat acceptance advocate is saying you should sit around and wildly overeat. What we’re saying is that exercise and a balanced diet do not make everyone thin.”

    Actually if you balance your diet to where your calories burned are equal to or less than your calories ingested, you will not gain weight.

    Which has nothing to do with being fat.

    Don't be delusional, it has everything to do with being fat. Fat people are people who at some point ingested more calories per day than they expended, usually over a long period of time. The only solution lies with them doing the reverse of this, and being hungry sucks so most of them don't want to do it.

  • KalTorakKalTorak Registered User regular
    edited March 2009
    Oh and incidentally guys, hardcore body-building also results in heart problems.

    Most activities are harmful if done in excess.

  • ZimmydoomZimmydoom Registered User
    edited March 2009
    Dyscord wrote: »
    Obesity inhabits a wacky space culturally because it's one of the few negative, personal issues that it's seemingly okay to mock people about. Cigarette smoking is sort of moving into this space, as well.

    I'm actually all for making fun of people's differences. I firmly believe that central to any real attempt at self-improvement is looking at your flaws with good humor. But just because I can joke about being sick doesn't mean I want my illness to dominate every conversation I am a part of, and it doesn't mean that there isn't a line and a point where I'll stop laughing at myself and start calling you an insensitive dickface for bringing it up.

    Getting someone who is fat to honestly laugh at themselves is probably one of the healthiest things you can do for them. It lightens the burden, and turns their heft from something shameful into something humanizing, which is absolutely critical for anyone who actually wants to lose weight instead of just burying their misery under an avalanche of deep-fried twinkies. But getting them to laugh at themselves does not mean getting other people in the room to laugh at them, and it's not something you try with someone who doesn't know you well or trust you personally.

    Better-than-birthday-sig!
    Spoiler:
  • Wonder_HippieWonder_Hippie __BANNED USERS
    edited March 2009
    jeepguy wrote: »
    jeepguy wrote: »
    Feral wrote: »
    “No fat acceptance advocate is saying you should sit around and wildly overeat. What we’re saying is that exercise and a balanced diet do not make everyone thin.”

    Actually if you balance your diet to where your calories burned are equal to or less than your calories ingested, you will not gain weight.

    Yes, this means that some people need to push the plate away, avoid higher energy foods that their slow metabolisms won't accomodate, and even, especially for those already overweight, eat small meals and be hungry for a while until they get used to ingesting the calories they need instead of the calories they want/are used to.

    But yes, for all but a tiny segment of the obese, it is a choice.

    It's as much a choice as being indoctrinated from birth into a belief system is a choice. They are learned, trained behaviors.


    I never said it was easy, or something that most can do without assistance. But the only government accommodation for the obese should really be treatment and programs to help them not be obese anymore. Even a moderate amount of weight lost on an obese person will result in improved health for them, it's not some zero sum game where you must be marathon-runner lean or you might as well be a whale.

    Read what I said again. For the vast majority of overweight people, it is not a choice.

    fat_kid.jpg

    It is not a choice for these kids. Even if we just ignore the genetic and biological aspects of obesity, calling it a choice is just plain fucking offensive.

    Spoiler:
  • JHunzJHunz Registered User regular
    edited March 2009
    necroSYS wrote: »
    Besides, the point of this thread isn't "fuck fat people". It's "fuck the fat acceptance movement." I don't accept that poor lifestyle choices that are going to negatively impact a huge segment of the population are a good idea. I don't accept that lifestyle choices which are going to cost everyone else money are just fine. and dandy.

    So make them stop costing everyone else money. The choices are not a priori destined to fuck over those of us who don't make them.
    You are aware that you are being ridiculous, right? The way to make people stop costing the health care system more money is to make them healthier. Being obese is not healthy. It has been proven repeatedly to be a factor in a huge number of health issues.
    You can't just wave a magic wand and make these costs go away, unless you are advocating that obese people not receive medical treatment.

    bunny.gif Gamertag: JHunz. R.I.P. Mygamercard.net bunny.gif
  • DuffelDuffel Registered User regular
    edited March 2009
    Read what I said again. For the vast majority of overweight people, it is not a choice.

    fat_kid.jpg

    It is not a choice for these kids. Even if we just ignore the genetic and biological aspects of obesity, calling it a choice is just plain fucking offensive.
    How is this not child abuse?

  • InquisitorInquisitor Registered User regular
    edited March 2009
    WH: That image should seriously constitute child abuse.

    B7ozVfx.png
  • Regina FongRegina Fong Allons-y, Alonso Registered User regular
    edited March 2009
    jeepguy wrote: »
    jeepguy wrote: »
    Feral wrote: »
    “No fat acceptance advocate is saying you should sit around and wildly overeat. What we’re saying is that exercise and a balanced diet do not make everyone thin.”

    Actually if you balance your diet to where your calories burned are equal to or less than your calories ingested, you will not gain weight.

    Yes, this means that some people need to push the plate away, avoid higher energy foods that their slow metabolisms won't accomodate, and even, especially for those already overweight, eat small meals and be hungry for a while until they get used to ingesting the calories they need instead of the calories they want/are used to.

    But yes, for all but a tiny segment of the obese, it is a choice.

    It's as much a choice as being indoctrinated from birth into a belief system is a choice. They are learned, trained behaviors.


    I never said it was easy, or something that most can do without assistance. But the only government accommodation for the obese should really be treatment and programs to help them not be obese anymore. Even a moderate amount of weight lost on an obese person will result in improved health for them, it's not some zero sum game where you must be marathon-runner lean or you might as well be a whale.

    Read what I said again. For the vast majority of overweight people, it is not a choice.

    fat_kid.jpg

    It is not a choice for these kids. Even if we just ignore the genetic and biological aspects of obesity, calling it a choice is just plain fucking offensive.


    Read what I am saying here:

    Argument that people who are raised with poor eating habits are hopelessly broken and free from personal responsibility and not possessed of free-will: REJECTED


    -edit-

    The so-called "biological aspect of obesity", which 99% of the time just means the person has a slower metabolism than the norm, and substantially slower than the naturally thin (rather than an actual medical condition) might explain obesity, but in no way mitigates the serious health risks of being obese. It is an explanation not an excuse. No matter how much sanctimony you load onto it.

  • Hexmage-PAHexmage-PA Registered User regular
    edited March 2009
    The End of Food has an interesting chapter covering how the author believes obesity became epidemic. Basically, people evolved to get food with as little effort as possible. Our modern conveniences have now made this genetic programming backfire on us.

    As for the Fat Acceptance "movement", it's made up of people who just plain don't want to change their lifestyle and want to make excuses for their dependence on food. Seeing as how there are so many overweight and obese people I wouldn't say that fat people are pathetic and failures as human beings; I'd say that they suffer from a common human trait that has no use in modern civilization.

    Friend Code: 1590-5696-7916
    Friend Safari Type: Rock
  • PowerpuppiesPowerpuppies Registered User regular
    edited March 2009
    JHunz wrote: »
    necroSYS wrote: »
    Besides, the point of this thread isn't "fuck fat people". It's "fuck the fat acceptance movement." I don't accept that poor lifestyle choices that are going to negatively impact a huge segment of the population are a good idea. I don't accept that lifestyle choices which are going to cost everyone else money are just fine. and dandy.

    So make them stop costing everyone else money. The choices are not a priori destined to fuck over those of us who don't make them.
    You are aware that you are being ridiculous, right?
    Fuck you.
    The way to make people stop costing the health care system more money is to make them healthier. Being obese is not healthy. It has been proven repeatedly to be a factor in a huge number of health issues.
    You can't just wave a magic wand and make these costs go away, unless you are advocating that obese people not receive medical treatment.

    This is exactly what I'm advocating. If you make a choice that can lead to medical problems, and then you have those medical problems, I don't think the government should spend a dime to save you. Certainly not if the government spending that dime is used as a reason people should not be permitted to make the same choice you did.

    The argument seems, to me, to be analogous to this:

    "I give everyone who wears a green shirt $5. I've given you $5 the past three days. Stop wearing green shirts, you're stealing my money!"

    The choice to wear a green shirt or be fat is not related to the detriment of losing $5 or paying for other people's avoidable medical bills.

    sig.gif
  • Wonder_HippieWonder_Hippie __BANNED USERS
    edited March 2009
    jeepguy wrote: »
    Read what I am saying here:

    Argument that people who are raised with poor eating habits are hopelessly broken and free from personal responsibility and not possessed of free-will: REJECTED

    And for once in your fucking time on these boards read something I am saying.

    It.

    Is not.

    A choice.

    At no point, ever, have I suggested that they should be absolved of responsibility. I'm telling you that your wording is wrong and offensive. That's it.

    Do you fucking grok?

    Edit: I'm not excusing anybody, you illiterate fucking monnkey.

    Spoiler:
  • OrganichuOrganichu Registered User regular
    edited March 2009
    Losing weight (going from 295 lb to running marathons) messed with my head. I read an article that someone in [chat] linked a couple of weeks back, and it mirrored my thoughts quite well. It discussed the total resentment you begin to feel towards your peers once you gain acceptance that was absent as a fat person. It feels good, obviously, to finally have women look at you... but for me, at least, when my mind digs in and realizes that my appearance is what made me worthy of attention, I got intensely bitter. It's been a few years since I got into shape and it still messes with me sometimes.

    XMSODhjrer45.gif
  • PowerpuppiesPowerpuppies Registered User regular
    edited March 2009
    jeepguy wrote: »
    Read what I am saying here:

    Argument that people who are raised with poor eating habits are hopelessly broken and free from personal responsibility and not possessed of free-will: REJECTED

    And for once in your fucking time on these boards read something I am saying.

    It.

    Is not.

    A choice.

    At no point, ever, have I suggested that they should be absolved of responsibility. I'm telling you that your wording is wrong and offensive. That's it.

    Do you fucking grok?

    Edit: I'm not excusing anybody, you illiterate fucking monnkey.

    He's disagreeing with you, not failing to understand you. He thinks the kids have free will and don't have to eat the mcdonald's. See the words free will up there? That's the part where he disagrees with you saying it isn't a choice.

    Edit: the part I bolded is amusing to me.

    sig.gif
  • ViolentChemistryViolentChemistry __BANNED USERS
    edited March 2009
    KalTorak wrote: »
    Oh and incidentally guys, hardcore body-building also results in heart problems.

    Most activities are harmful if done in excess.

    That is correct. None of the extremes are healthy. But we choose to focus only on the unattractive one.

    DAMM
    Drunks Against Mad Mothers
  • Regina FongRegina Fong Allons-y, Alonso Registered User regular
    edited March 2009
    jeepguy wrote: »
    Read what I am saying here:

    Argument that people who are raised with poor eating habits are hopelessly broken and free from personal responsibility and not possessed of free-will: REJECTED

    And for once in your fucking time on these boards read something I am saying.

    It.

    Is not.

    A choice.

    At no point, ever, have I suggested that they should be absolved of responsibility. I'm telling you that your wording is wrong and offensive. That's it.

    Do you fucking grok?

    Edit: I'm not excusing anybody, you illiterate fucking monnkey.



    Hippie. I am so God damned sick of you accusing everyone who disagrees with you of not reading your posts.

    I read your shitty, wrong-headed, lame-ass posts and have completely and utterly rejected your position, and I am flat-out offended at your retarded moral posturing on the presumed helplessness of the obese.

    And that's that. Don't even bother replying to me again, you're a fucking loon and that's all there is.

    -edit-

    and don't use the word "grok" it's stupid. and don't pretend saying people are helpless and can't control how much food they eat is anything but an excuse. how offensive that you expect me to swallow that pathetic logic.

  • Wonder_HippieWonder_Hippie __BANNED USERS
    edited March 2009
    jeepguy wrote: »
    Read what I am saying here:

    Argument that people who are raised with poor eating habits are hopelessly broken and free from personal responsibility and not possessed of free-will: REJECTED

    And for once in your fucking time on these boards read something I am saying.

    It.

    Is not.

    A choice.

    At no point, ever, have I suggested that they should be absolved of responsibility. I'm telling you that your wording is wrong and offensive. That's it.

    Do you fucking grok?

    Edit: I'm not excusing anybody, you illiterate fucking monnkey.

    He's disagreeing with you, not failing to understand you. He thinks the kids have free will and don't have to eat the mcdonald's. See the words free will up there? That's the part where he disagrees with you saying it isn't a choice.

    Edit: the part I bolded is amusing to me.

    Then he fails at understanding the concept of choice.

    Spoiler:
  • DuffelDuffel Registered User regular
    edited March 2009
    If the parents are so irresponsible that they let their children get that obese (which would require a tremendous amount of enabling on the part of the parents) then child services needs to take the away.

    We don't let parents keep their kids if they let their kids eat paint chips, or drink lighter fluid, or if they find out their 6-year-old is drinking malt liquor and don't do anything about it. Likewise, we shouldn't let parents keep their kids who load em up with 8 big macs a day, either.

  • FeralFeral Who needs a medical license when you've got style? Registered User regular
    edited March 2009
    jeepguy wrote: »
    Feral wrote: »
    jeepguy wrote: »
    Feral wrote: »
    “No fat acceptance advocate is saying you should sit around and wildly overeat. What we’re saying is that exercise and a balanced diet do not make everyone thin.”

    Actually if you balance your diet to where your calories burned are equal to or less than your calories ingested, you will not gain weight.

    Which has nothing to do with being fat.

    Don't be delusional, it has everything to do with being fat. Fat people are people who at some point ingested more calories per day than they expended, usually over a long period of time. The only solution lies with them doing the reverse of this, and being hungry sucks so most of them don't want to do it.

    Everybody has, at some point in their lives, ingested more calories per day than they expended. if you didn't, at least during childhood, then you suffered malnutrition and stunted growth.

    A person's metabolism changes throughout their lives, usually slowing down. Most people are ill-prepared for these changes, which is why people can gain weight right after puberty, or illness, or pregnancy, without ever increasing their caloric intake.

    Everybody could lose weight. Debra Messing could lose weight. Montgomery Burns could lose weight. However, what some people consider to be "fat" has nothing to do with health. Some people called this "fat:"
    Spoiler:

    That's an extreme example, but it illustrates my point. Whether or not a person is physically capable of losing weight is irrelevant towards the social expectations placed upon that person.

    every person who doesn't like an acquired taste always seems to think everyone who likes it is faking it. it should be an official fallacy.
    the "no true scotch, man" fallacy.
  • PowerpuppiesPowerpuppies Registered User regular
    edited March 2009
    jeepguy wrote: »
    Read what I am saying here:

    Argument that people who are raised with poor eating habits are hopelessly broken and free from personal responsibility and not possessed of free-will: REJECTED

    And for once in your fucking time on these boards read something I am saying.

    It.

    Is not.

    A choice.

    At no point, ever, have I suggested that they should be absolved of responsibility. I'm telling you that your wording is wrong and offensive. That's it.

    Do you fucking grok?

    Edit: I'm not excusing anybody, you illiterate fucking monnkey.

    He's disagreeing with you, not failing to understand you. He thinks the kids have free will and don't have to eat the mcdonald's. See the words free will up there? That's the part where he disagrees with you saying it isn't a choice.

    Edit: the part I bolded is amusing to me.

    Then he fails at understanding the concept of choice.

    So argue that rather than accusing him of not reading your posts.
    Edit: or agree to disagree, that would work too. Is there nothing more to discuss about fat acceptance after you resolve whether fatness is a choice? Assuming it is a choice, isn't it still wrong to disparage people who have made that choice? Assuming it isn't a choice for some people, what's the appropriate societal response?

    sig.gif
  • Hexmage-PAHexmage-PA Registered User regular
    edited March 2009
    KalTorak wrote: »
    Oh and incidentally guys, hardcore body-building also results in heart problems.

    Most activities are harmful if done in excess.

    That is correct. None of the extremes are healthy. But we choose to focus only on the unattractive one.

    That is also widespread and increasing all over the world.

    Friend Code: 1590-5696-7916
    Friend Safari Type: Rock
  • MaceraMacera Registered User
    edited March 2009
    Hexmage-PA wrote: »
    Basically, people evolved to get food with as little effort as possible.

    This. This. A million times over. Millions of years of adaptation are behind our cravings for fats and sugars, which are nowadays readily available everywhere. Our modern day society, in which most people drive everywhere, spent the day sitting, eat highly processed food, and work for most of the day with little to no time to exercise, is a major, major factor in weight gain.

    xet8c.gif
  • FeralFeral Who needs a medical license when you've got style? Registered User regular
    edited March 2009
    Hexmage-PA wrote: »
    As for the Fat Acceptance "movement", it's made up of people who just plain don't want to change their lifestyle and want to make excuses for their dependence on food. [citation needed]

    every person who doesn't like an acquired taste always seems to think everyone who likes it is faking it. it should be an official fallacy.
    the "no true scotch, man" fallacy.
  • Mom2KatMom2Kat Registered User regular
    edited March 2009
    Again it is kind of the slippery slope. I have had many people tell me I am setting my daughter up to be like me. Umm just cause the child is 60lbs and 4'3" she is not fat. Seriously she is active (Judo twice a week, Tournements once a month, biking, running around and playing.) And to look at her she is not a large child. Compare her to her friend Kaitlyn though and yes she looks huge, but then Kaitlyn is a small child. So should I be charged with child abues since a large amount of people feel that by virtue of my daughter living with a fat mommy I am setting her up to fail?

    Yes we need to make sure we are teaching our children right. I appluade my parents for when i was young but alas the training they taught me did not stick, and I let myeslf go to much. I used to play Volleyball, was able to walk for kilometers, (Hills I hated thought) Could and would bike for 10 kms a day to visit a friend, and have known about healthy eating since I was small. As I became and adult I lost that though. I started drinking to much pop, I ate out to much while working, going to school, and taking care of a newborn, (yup all at the same time) And then I finally found out that I why I had lost all my joy for life was major depression. I ate to feel better but it made me feel like hell, so I ate to feel better.... Even though I knew it was the wrong thing to do.

  • Wonder_HippieWonder_Hippie __BANNED USERS
    edited March 2009
    jeepguy show me JUST WHERE THE FUCK I said anybody was helpless.

    I didn't. At no point, not once in this argument, have I ever said anybody was helpless. You are, quite literally, putting words into my mouth. It's fucking infuriating and that's why I always get so god damned frustrated with you, because you can't help but accuse people of saying some shit that THEY'RE NOT FUCKING SAYING.

    So what other conclusions can I reach? Simply that you're a fucking illiterate monkey who's going to choose to yell at somebody for something THEY NEVER FUCKING SAID instead of either arguing or accepting the point I'm trying to fucking make.

    Spoiler:
  • mynameisguidomynameisguido Registered User regular
    edited March 2009
    JHunz wrote: »
    necroSYS wrote: »
    Besides, the point of this thread isn't "fuck fat people". It's "fuck the fat acceptance movement." I don't accept that poor lifestyle choices that are going to negatively impact a huge segment of the population are a good idea. I don't accept that lifestyle choices which are going to cost everyone else money are just fine. and dandy.

    So make them stop costing everyone else money. The choices are not a priori destined to fuck over those of us who don't make them.
    You are aware that you are being ridiculous, right?
    Fuck you.
    The way to make people stop costing the health care system more money is to make them healthier. Being obese is not healthy. It has been proven repeatedly to be a factor in a huge number of health issues.
    You can't just wave a magic wand and make these costs go away, unless you are advocating that obese people not receive medical treatment.

    This is exactly what I'm advocating. If you make a choice that can lead to medical problems, and then you have those medical problems, I don't think the government should spend a dime to save you. Certainly not if the government spending that dime is used as a reason people should not be permitted to make the same choice you did.

    The argument seems, to me, to be analogous to this:

    "I give everyone who wears a green shirt $5. I've given you $5 the past three days. Stop wearing green shirts, you're stealing my money!"

    The choice to wear a green shirt or be fat is not related to the detriment of losing $5 or paying for other people's avoidable medical bills.

    "Being fat" is a result of a lot of choices and some things that aren't choices---it's more a result than it is a singular choice. What should be taxed, incentivized or disincentivized is the behaviors that lead people to become overweight.

    Like say, a tax credit for having a gym membership, or putting a sort of "sin tax" on heavily sugary snacks, end corn subsidies so hcfs isn't so cheap, etc.

    steam_sig.png
  • Regina FongRegina Fong Allons-y, Alonso Registered User regular
    edited March 2009
    jeepguy show me JUST WHERE THE FUCK I said anybody was helpless.



    HIPPIE:

    "IT'S NOT A CHOICE"

    *SOBBING*

  • tsmvengytsmvengy Registered User regular
    edited March 2009
    Hexmage-PA wrote: »
    KalTorak wrote: »
    Oh and incidentally guys, hardcore body-building also results in heart problems.

    Most activities are harmful if done in excess.

    That is correct. None of the extremes are healthy. But we choose to focus only on the unattractive one.

    That is also widespread and increasing all over the world.

    Unlike hyper-skinniness among celebrities? You just proved his point by ignoring what he's talking about.

    steam_sig.png
  • MedopineMedopine __BANNED USERS
    edited March 2009
    Stop yelling at each other, it's making your substantive points impossible to find

  • ThanatosThanatos Registered User regular
    edited March 2009
    Yeah, calling it a "choice" while true, isn't really fair. We have a society that simultaneously harshly judges those who are overweight, and yet encourages people in pretty much every way possible to get fat. I mean, really, our society pretty much does everything in its power to make everyone fat. First, the vast majority of the food in our stores contains way too many simple sugars, and nowhere near enough complex carbs. Yes, we can sit here and judge people for not buying healthier food, but when do you ever see healthy food advertised? I think it's a problem when I buy "lightly salted peanuts" which have cornstarch in them, or my wheat bread comes with high-fructose corn syrup. The agricultural-industrial complex pretty much holds complete control over what is sold, advertised, and subsidized by the government; our tax dollars go towards making these foods that are terrible for us more affordable and more widely available than healthy foods.

    Then, you've got the modern societal scheduling issues. Most of us skip breakfast, have a set time for lunch carved out for us, and then eat a big dinner shortly before we go to bed, which means two giant meals. Kids in school are even more fucked, since many of them are limited by what the school cafeteria is serving, and most teachers won't let them eat in class. People eating at their desk during work is also looked down upon, yet these are the behaviors that are best for us. College dining plans can be even worse; I know a lot of schools go with a mandatory "meal" plan which is ridiculously expensive, doesn't roll over, and basically locks you into eating two all-you-can-eat meals per day. Again, developing the worst possible eating habits for the students.

    And then the societal judgment on people who are fat makes it even worse; a lot of overweight people are too self-conscious to go to a gym, because they feel like everyone is judging them; we've turned gyms into places healthy people go, instead of making it into a place where people go to get healthy.

    So yes, in one sense, it is a "choice," in much the same way a poor kid who grows up in the ghetto without a family "chooses" to become a gangbanger and a drug dealer. And I'm not saying that people aren't responsible for their weight; all I'm saying is that the deck comes out stacked against them, and then we act all judgmental when they behave in exactly the way society and economics encourage them to.

  • DrezDrez Registered User regular
    edited March 2009
    Well, saying "it's not a choice" also implies that people can't lose their weight.

    Either it's a choice or it isn't.

    You can argue that with certain upbringings, children are led into obesity and this may inform their adult life, but I don't think "choice"/"not a choice" is the correct language here because it's not clear as to what you are saying. Children basically don't have ANY choices. But adults do.

    steam_sig.png
  • Wonder_HippieWonder_Hippie __BANNED USERS
    edited March 2009
    jeepguy wrote: »
    jeepguy show me JUST WHERE THE FUCK I said anybody was helpless.



    HIPPIE:

    "IT'S NOT A CHOICE"

    *SOBBING*

    You god damned moron. I am distinguishing between "HEY LOOK I THINK I'LL EAT A WHOLE FUCKING CAKE BECAUSE I WANT TO" and "HEY LOOK THIS IS HOW I'VE BEEN TRAINED TO EAT AND NOBODY FUCKING TAUGHT ME ANY DIFFERENT BECAUSE MY FAMILY'S FAT AND THEIR FAMILIES WERE FAT AND WE ALL HAVE BAD EATING HABITS SO SAYING I CHOSE TO BECOME A FAT FUCKING SLOB IS PRETTY FUCKING STUPID YOU IGNORANT MORON."

    Spoiler:
  • DuffelDuffel Registered User regular
    edited March 2009
    Mom2Kat wrote: »
    Again it is kind of the slippery slope. I have had many people tell me I am setting my daughter up to be like me. Umm just cause the child is 60lbs and 4'3" she is not fat. Seriously she is active (Judo twice a week, Tournements once a month, biking, running around and playing.) And to look at her she is not a large child. Compare her to her friend Kaitlyn though and yes she looks huge, but then Kaitlyn is a small child. So should I be charged with child abues since a large amount of people feel that by virtue of my daughter living with a fat mommy I am setting her up to fail?

    Yes we need to make sure we are teaching our children right. I appluade my parents for when i was young but alas the training they taught me did not stick, and I let myeslf go to much. I used to play Volleyball, was able to walk for kilometers, (Hills I hated thought) Could and would bike for 10 kms a day to visit a friend, and have known about healthy eating since I was small. As I became and adult I lost that though. I started drinking to much pop, I ate out to much while working, going to school, and taking care of a newborn, (yup all at the same time) And then I finally found out that I why I had lost all my joy for life was major depression. I ate to feel better but it made me feel like hell, so I ate to feel better.... Even though I knew it was the wrong thing to do.
    Any kid who is obese enough for it to be considered abuse is probably going to be on all kinds of medications for it, and it would be well-documented by their doctor/social worker. If your kid is at all active, eats even somewhat healthy, and is not rapidly gaining weight I can't see how it would be abuse. But if a parent willfully chooses to feed their child massive amounts of unhealthy food, and continues to do so despite a child's degenerating health, then at the very least they are incompetent if not actually abusive.

    Being "slightly bigger" is a world apart from "morbidly obese at the age of six". Go to youtube and search for "world's fattest child" if you want to see the sort of abuse cases I'm talking about. I'm not going to link it here because frankly it's kind of heartbreaking.

  • ZimmydoomZimmydoom Registered User
    edited March 2009
    Duffel wrote: »
    If the parents are so irresponsible that they let their children get that obese (which would require a tremendous amount of enabling on the part of the parents) then child services needs to take the away.

    We don't let parents keep their kids if they let their kids eat paint chips, or drink lighter fluid, or if they find out their 6-year-old is drinking malt liquor and don't do anything about it. Likewise, we shouldn't let parents keep their kids who load em up with 8 big macs a day, either.

    So we should take 15% of the children in this country away from their parents and shoehorn them into a horribly underfunded and fundamentally broken foster care system because their biological parents are providing them too much basic sustenance.

    Yes, I don't see how that could possibly trigger the downfall of civilization.

    Better-than-birthday-sig!
    Spoiler:
  • Regina FongRegina Fong Allons-y, Alonso Registered User regular
    edited March 2009
    The extreme example of the two kids portrayed in that photo should in no way be taken as some sort of example of where obesity comes from. The vast majority of obese people are not morbidly obese, and certainly didn't look like that as small children.

    It's a shock photo. It is part of the rising problem of childhood obesity but is an incredibly narrow perspective.

  • Wonder_HippieWonder_Hippie __BANNED USERS
    edited March 2009
    Thanatos wrote: »
    Yeah, calling it a "choice" while true, isn't really fair. We have a society that simultaneously harshly judges those who are overweight, and yet encourages people in pretty much every way possible to get fat. I mean, really, our society pretty much does everything in its power to make everyone fat. First, the vast majority of the food in our stores contains way too many simple sugars, and nowhere near enough complex carbs. Yes, we can sit here and judge people for not buying healthier food, but when do you ever see healthy food advertised? I think it's a problem when I buy "lightly salted peanuts" which have cornstarch in them. The agricultural-industrial complex pretty much holds complete control over what is sold, advertised, and subsidized by the government; our tax dollars go towards making these foods that are terrible for us more affordable and more widely available than healthy foods.

    Then, you've got the modern societal scheduling issues. Most of us skip breakfast, have a set time for lunch carved out for us, and then eat a big dinner shortly before we go to bed, which means two giant meals. Kids in school are even more fucked, since many of them are limited by what the school cafeteria is serving, and most teachers won't let them eat in class. People eating at their desk during work is also looked down upon, yet these are the behaviors that are best for us. College dining plans can be even worse; I know a lot of schools go with a mandatory "meal" plan which is ridiculously expensive, doesn't roll over, and basically locks you into eating two all-you-can-eat meals per day. Again, developing the worst possible eating habits for the students.

    And then the societal judgment on people who are fat makes it even worse; a lot of overweight people are too self-conscious to go to a gym, because they feel like everyone is judging them; we've turned gyms into places healthy people go, instead of making it into a place where people go to get healthy.

    So yes, in one sense, it is a "choice," in much the same way a poor kid who grows up in the ghetto without a family "chooses" to become a gangbanger and a drug dealer. And I'm not saying that people aren't responsible for their weight; all I'm saying is that the deck comes out stacked against them, and then we act all judgmental when they behave in exactly the way society and economics encourage them to.

    Thank you.

    Spoiler:
  • DrezDrez Registered User regular
    edited March 2009
    jeepguy wrote: »
    jeepguy show me JUST WHERE THE FUCK I said anybody was helpless.



    HIPPIE:

    "IT'S NOT A CHOICE"

    *SOBBING*

    You god damned moron. I am distinguishing between "HEY LOOK I THINK I'LL EAT A WHOLE FUCKING CAKE BECAUSE I WANT TO" and "HEY LOOK THIS IS HOW I'VE BEEN TRAINED TO EAT AND NOBODY FUCKING TAUGHT ME ANY DIFFERENT BECAUSE MY FAMILY'S FAT AND THEIR FAMILIES WERE FAT AND WE ALL HAVE BAD EATING HABITS SO SAYING I CHOSE TO BECOME A FAT FUCKING SLOB IS PRETTY FUCKING STUPID YOU IGNORANT MORON."

    Hippie, nobody is really talking about how people got fat. This thread is mostly concerned with what you do once you're an adult and you realize "hey, I'm fat." Do you lobby for acceptance as a special class, or do you do something about it? I'm sorry, but your points aren't even remotely relative to this discourse.

    steam_sig.png
This discussion has been closed.