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Fat Acceptance (No, I will not make you a sandwich)
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I don't think it's the school's business, really. It's the business of the parents and the students. What's the point of education? To learn for the sake of learning, or to learn for application's sake? The kids can't apply what they'd learn, and with the amount of conflicting information I've personally come across regarding how to properly structure a nutritional diet, they'd be better off learning from a nutritionist, not some PE teacher who wouldn't be focusing on it.
The real education regarding nutrition and living actively comes from outside sources. The school's tried to teach health properly. It has failed so far. I see no problem with the job of teaching this being outsourced.
One of the reasons I love going to the local joints around here. They spend more on quality food than on "here is a huge pile of cheap garbage."
I haven't. but it might apply to his future and is a good thing to learn anyway.
orrrrr we could say "it never worked before so how can it work in the future"
also this approach is not mutually exclusive with parents and students also taking it upon themselves to eat correctly and exercise
Even between Canada and the USA, I find portions at restaurants in the USA are bigger, and ours are too big in Canada to start with.
The "clean your plate" thing is probably a legacy of the Great Depression and WWII. Those of us somewhat older forumers, our grandparents will have lived through that, and our parents may have lived in places with food shortages during or after WWII. Food Rationing in the UK continued until 1954, for example.
So, that cultural impact of real food shortages is being passed on as family traditions many decades later when its doing us real harm.
Any information picked up from a school's health class is only useful if the parent is just as informed. Kids don't buy the food, the parents do, and unless the parents are involved, you're not going anywhere. Some parents will not be on board with a lifestyle change. It may be too convenient and expensive for them. You'd really have better luck teaching the parents about nutrition than the kids, because they're the ones who control the food.
Finally, as it's been mentioned in this thread, changing to a healthy, physically active lifestyle is highly dependent on willpower. You cannot teach willpower in schools, however you can make a kid feel self-conscious by publicly explaining how there are certain people who are unhealthy, which can (and has) been used to justify bashing overweight people.
Only the kids with the willpower to change or continue this lifestyle will find this information necessary, and so they can seek it outside of a school with the assistance of their parent or guardian, which also isn't a problem because nutrition is something both the child and the parent/guardian should learn about together. It takes a family to work on this problem.
I'm not talking about "man let's make those fat kids lose weight" I'm talking about let's at least give kids the tools to recognize (right now or gasp! later in life when they buy their own food) what are healthy eating habits and what aren't.
I believe this is appropriate for school curriculum and you don't, so I guess that's that. Insofar as you base your opinion on the fact "it can't work! it never worked before!" I think that's silly.
- even if the parents don't do anything, you haven't lost anything by educating these children. just because they can't use the information now doesn't mean it's not worth teaching them so they hvae it for the future (hence my algebra comparison). plus if a kid comes home with some knowledge and a textbook about being healthier, at least some parents would be willing to look into improvements that would benefit them and their child.
- you can't make kids do anything. you can't even really make them learn any of what is taught in schools. why does that somehow apply differently to health and nutrition than any other subject? especially since health and nutrition necessarily applies to every student.
If you think it takes a health class for fat kids to make fun of, I question whether you actually went through school. It wouldn't make that any worse whatsoever, especially with the focus being on health rather than purely weight.
and as for your last point, only kids who are willing to work are gonna go to good colleges and get good jobs, and they can learn anything outside of school, they just have to read some books. why teach anything?
(this is a direct response to fluffy I just didn't want to quote and chop it up)
You're not exactly proposing a way in which it might work. You're working on the assumption that it is fixable, and giving no reasons why you think so. That to me is silly.
The idea that it could be fixed to the degree that it overrides everything a child learns outside of school about eating, like what goes on at the dinner table, seems impossible to me. Unless these children buy and prepare their own food, in which case it might be possible. I can't imagine a 14 year old stopping to ask his parent how many calories are in the meal they've prepared.
It can be improved, but not to the extent that it's truly effectual.
There was some research indicating diet soda may be an hunger stimulant which at least partially negates its other value, though I believe currently there isn't a strong consensus either way.
Still, I don't mean to suggest any diet ought to be perfect. If you're starting off from terrible like I did, even making the most minor of concessions can have a big impact.
Comfortable is 32 degrees with ice crystals starting to form, what are you talking about?
You're ignoring my and variable's points about giving kids tools to use later, and helping them think differently about food, even though at that particular point in their life they may not have the most control about what foods they are offered
And despite what you say kids DO get to pick some of what they eat, say by bringing lunch money to school, or mom asking them what they want to order at the restaurant
Also, by manipulating their parents. As anyone who has spent time at a dinner table with small children recently can tell you.
The idea that "you can't make kids do anything" is utterly pivotal in this entire debate. If kids don't want to, then they're damn well not going to. It's really as simple as that. I've yet to see a promotional video or a PSA that makes exercise look fun. I think it's more of a matter that we just haven't figured it all out yet. We're getting there, though. As has been mentioned in this thread, America is slowly but surely working on slimming down, what with fast food joints changing their menus, etc. I think we're headed in the right direction, but I think we could do more to make it easier for people to access the means to get in shape. I'm not just talking about "go for a walk fatty", I mean like...exercise machines. Gyms. Facilities like that. Places that people will make an effort to go to, and do it on a regular basis. There's more these places could be doing to get people to go, and there's also more places we could be putting these facilities.
Also, on an unrelated note, your sig reminds me of Joe Pantoliano.
Dividing up gym class isn't the way to adequately teach nutrition. Covering enough subject matter to enforce a healthier lifestyle would require probably a class of its own. If we're talking about enforcing every kid with a healthier lifestyle, it would need to be mandatory, 'cause given the choice I'd bet more kids would choose a class that was relevant to what they think they want to do career-wise.
Some children might retain this information. Some parents might do what you said they might do. I think if a kid wanted to change their lifestyle, and had parents willing to help them, this wouldn't be necessary, and in the process of working towards their goal they'd come across more valuable information than what they'd get from a class.
It doesn't. It does help my point that it's ineffectual, though.
I've seen it used as a justification. Fat people being treated as inferior because it's unhealthy to be fat. You're right, being mocked because of weight's bad either way, but that some people feel they can justify their mockery is just irritating.
School is necessary for future employment. Nutrition (unless you intend to be a nutritionalist) is not necessary for future employment. While certain levels of physical fitness may be a requirement for certain jobs (military, fire dept., etc), those jobs do not require a degree. Kids who get into good colleges and get good jobs get them because of grades. A healthy lifestyle does not share the same requirements.
When I went to my public school, we usually had "pizza" once a week. Said pizza was placed in a little bowl-like carton, and was bowed in the middle, like a pool table that gets wet. It was so greasy that there was usually about a tablespoon (I am not exxagerating at all) of pure grease that had sweated out of the surface of the pizza and collected in the gap. We had to swab them off with napkins before we could eat them.
There's no way in hell that shit was healthy. Granted, it's not the worst school lunches I've ever heard of - that would go to my cousin's school, where it was actually not unheard for your food to have roaches in it - but it was definitely too unhealthy to give to school kids.
If the cafeterias would give decent-tasting, healthy foods - vegetables, fresh fruit, a sparing use of meat - I'd be willing to bet that it would have an effect on the way they chose to eat at home. When I was a little kid I was a big milk drinker (like, a gallon a day), and the only kind of milk I could stand was whole milk. They eventually stopped stocking that at school, only giving us 2%, and while I hated it at first, I got used to it and soon I began to prefer it. So, nutrition information is important - but it's probably more important for the parents than the kids, because the kids don't buy their own groceries.
I've said repeatedly that the information taught would only be useful after. I've also stated that such information, if desired, could be sought after later, from better, varied sources.
Upgrading a nutrition class would cost money, so ya, it's definitely worth something. The class wouldn't do much at all, but it would cost a pretty penny. Let's do that instead of putting that money into programs that would bear sweeter fruit.
You think some elementary school kid's going to retain this information up until the point he/she can implement it? I seriously doubt it. Nutrition isn't like riding a bike.
don't bother, he just doesn't believe it can work, so yeah, I think we're done here
Why would we do that? As you said, if kids don't want to learn something, they won't. That's why we should only teach candy, because basic self control is overrated.
Hitler, still fucking with us from beyond the grave.
I'm curious, is P.E in America a class where everybody just goes and does some arbitrary physical exercise with minimal explanation about why you're doing it? Because down in in Australia what you're saying is impossible is basically what we have, P.E was divided between practical classes with the 'go for a bloody run' aspect of it and theory classes with the information about proper dietary and healthy lifestyle choices.
There are unattractive people of all sizes. I get very irritated when people assume that fat != attractive. This is important because I find a lot of the negativity towards overweight people is due to this general consensus. Like someone else has said, being overweight has become one of the last few acceptable traits that it is widely accepted and encouraged to be made fun of. I am in support of making this something that no longer is. It affects people I know and love, and also myself.
I have mixed feelings on whether overweight people should be given rights similar to those with obvious illness and disease. People here can attest that your weight is certainly something you can change, but I know that for some (a minority of) people it is not possible or something that is very difficult to do. By giving those very few people rights, you would have to give everyone them. That, I would have a problem with since those undeserving of the rights would obviously abuse them, but it doesn't really leave a simple answer to this issue.
Also, unlike Windbit, I am comfortable with my preference and would be pleased if I could bring my perspective to the table if there is interest.
Treating overweight people like shit because you think their weight gives you a free pass to act like dick is also stupid.
Is that so hard to suss out?
yes because stuff
Triple B said that it's perfectly fine to lack basic self control because you were raised by wolves, and that we should show compassion to those who are immobile because not biting something near their mouth is too hard.
I can't remember the last time anyone treated me like shit for being fat, and I'm over 300 (working on fixing that, but still). Most people I've met would never said one word about it past say, high school age.
Small children have more of an impact on a family's grocery list than any other single family member. That's why junkfood marketing targets elementary and middle-school kids primarily, because it fucking works and gets them hooked young, before they start noticing boys/girls and worrying about how they look.
Fuzzy, you're being really, really thick in here. Medo's suggestions are perfectly reasonable and have not been tested sufficiently for you to be so adamantly dismissive of what is a really good set of ideas.
This describes, precisely, what "physical education" was for me, in California public schools, in the late 80s and early 90s. And I don't think my experience was uncommon.
we learned and played sports and had weightlifting class in high school
in elementary school and middle school we did those president's fitness test things
I suspect it is a little easier being a fat man than being a fat woman.
I haven't been demeaned for being chubby since I was a child. However, I've dated a few chubby girls and I have seen how they do get demeaned, with alarming regularity.
I'm not sure PA is the right place for someone like you. Perhaps try 4cha....chairs. Yes. Try 4 chairs and pick which one suits you best.
This is why I hate stuff.
It can get stuffed for all I care.
How about federal funding for summer camps for the obese youth? Or even just summer camps in general.
I think it would be good to better promote kids getting outside for a few weeks during time off school.
I think it's important to understand the motivations behind such proposals.
There's evidence that there is a wage gap between overweight people and normal weight people. They can face discrimination in education. Doctors give less time to overweight and obese patients.
The proposals to define fat people as a protected class are an effort to curb these forms of discrimination. Whether or not they have a snowball's chance of hell of succeeding is of no interest to me - they might, on the local level, be able to get anti-fat-discrimination language written into municipal law as in San Francisco - but rather that it is a genuine attempt to fight a very real problem.
Drunks Against Mad Mothers
Sure, obesity is fairly firmly linked to increases in heart problems, etc. But last time I checked, tobacco was linked to various cancers, alcohol was linked to liver issues (among other things), and driving a motorcycle? That shit will straight-up kill you. Yet in the countless variations on "oh man I got so drunk last night and did this CUH-RAAAAZY shit" stories people relate in the Strange/Embarrassing/Awesome Moments threads, I don't think I've ever seen anybody say "You alcohol abusers are so fucking irresponsible, that all-night binge probably shortened your life by six months and added $4,000 to our future health care costs, it's your stupid drunken fault that you didn't have the willpower to refrain from making a choice that hurts everybody else!" Similarly, we've had threads about riding motorcycles, but I don't recall any thread-crashers in there screaming "How dare you jack up health care costs for everyone else by riding your stupid donorcycle, I hope you don't take anyone else with you when you get into a horrible accident and waste thousands of dollars of taxpayer money in the ER before you die!"
But man, as soon as somebody's just fat, it's their fault and their choice and they're ruining our health care system singlehandedly and God, it's just so unfair that us Greek-god-bodied taxpayers need to foot the quadruple bypass bill so Fatty McLardass can keep shoving entire pounds of bacon into his mouth, abloo bloo bloo.
You can jack up my mother's taxes because she's a fat middle-aged smoker right after you increase your own because you're a hard-drinking fast-driving college boy who thinks he's immortal. Or, you can just accept the fact that different people are drains on the system in different ways.