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Battlestar Galactica AND Caprica *SPOILERS* - It's Over! YEAAAAHHHHH

DarkCrawlerDarkCrawler Registered User regular
edited July 2009 in Debate and/or Discourse
One of the greatest series in the world has ended.

Talk about it.

Beers are on Colonel Tigh.

togh.png

DarkCrawler on
«13456762

Posts

  • OremLKOremLK Registered User regular
    edited March 2009
    The strip club scenes were so incongruous with the tone of the episode I thought, but Tigh was hilarious so all is forgiven.

    Man, I felt a little like vomiting myself when Adama made a pit stop outside, though.

    OremLK on
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  • ButtcleftButtcleft Registered User regular
    edited March 2009
    Tigh will forever be a god amongst men

    Buttcleft on
  • KageraKagera Imitating the worst people. Since 2004Registered User regular
    edited March 2009
    Needs more 'Fanboy Civil War' in title.

    Or 'The War of Fanboy Aggression'.

    Kagera on
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  • HamHamJHamHamJ Registered User regular
    edited March 2009
    You forgot the poll.

    HamHamJ on
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  • ButtcleftButtcleft Registered User regular
    edited March 2009
    Kagera wrote: »
    Needs more 'Fanboy Civil War' in title.

    Or 'The War of Fanboy Aggression'.

    Battlestar Galactica *Spoilers* The Fanboys have a plan, and it involves bitching

    Buttcleft on
  • emnmnmeemnmnme Registered User regular
    edited March 2009
    Boomer was hotter than Athena.

    emnmnme on
  • DashuiDashui Registered User regular
    edited March 2009
    Am I the only one who thought those flashbacks were focused on vices and sins and there might be some importance to that?

    Dashui on
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  • HamHamJHamHamJ Registered User regular
    edited March 2009
    HamHamJ wrote: »
    they can survive, even thrive as tribal agrarians

    No they can't.

    And why is that, oh master of all knowledge that pertains to dramatic theory and wilderness survival?

    a) They have no resistance to local diseases, nor do any crops they may have brough with them.

    b) They have no livestock afaik.

    c) They have no practical skills. Baltar knows farming? Yeah, I doubt it. He might know how to farm using modern fertilizer, modern pesticides, modern tools, etc. He doesn't fucking know how to farm using a stone plow and a horse (which they also don't even have... so I guess Baltar is pulling that plow himself).

    d) They have no idea what local plants are edible and which are posinious, and they will have to domestic crops from scratch which is a process that takes hundreds of years.

    e) Ditto for any animals they want to domesticate.

    f) Neither Helo nor Athena knows jack shit about hunting with a wooden bow. Or making one for that matter.

    g) They don't know how to build houses. Or wells. Or anything.

    HamHamJ on
    While racing light mechs, your Urbanmech comes in second place, but only because it ran out of ammo.
  • ButtcleftButtcleft Registered User regular
    edited March 2009
    HamHamJ wrote: »
    HamHamJ wrote: »
    they can survive, even thrive as tribal agrarians

    No they can't.

    And why is that, oh master of all knowledge that pertains to dramatic theory and wilderness survival?

    a) They have no resistance to local diseases, nor do any crops they may have brough with them.

    b) They have no livestock afaik.

    c) They have no practical skills. Baltar knows farming? Yeah, I doubt it. He might know how to farm using modern fertilizer, modern pesticides, modern tools, etc. He doesn't fucking know how to farm using a stone plow and a horse (which they also don't even have... so I guess Baltar is pulling that plow himself).

    d) They have no idea what local plants are edible and which are posinious, and they will have to domestic crops from scratch which is a process that takes hundreds of years.

    e) Ditto for any animals they want to domesticate.

    f) Neither Helo nor Athena knows jack shit about hunting with a wooden bow. Or making one for that matter.

    g) They don't know how to build houses. Or wells. Or anything.

    h) They also have rebel cylons with them, who can easily run down and tackle a gazelles evolutionary ancestor and slit its throat with a stone knife while everyone else figures the above out.

    Buttcleft on
  • Professor PhobosProfessor Phobos Registered User regular
    edited March 2009
    Qingu wrote: »
    Well, it's more than that. New Caprica had a 10% habitability zone around the equator- it was a shitty planet. Earth is a garden. In the episode, it's presented as a choice between continuity with the past and what amounts to cultural suicide in the hope of a different future.
    Understood. But surely you have to admit that in the world of Battlestar Galactica, which is portrayed as ethically gray and difficult, with human nature ensuring there are never any clean breaks, the idea that all of the fleet would make this choice is unbelievable?

    It's totally unbelievable.
    Based on everything we've seen from the 30,000 people of this fleet, if you told me "they'd all agree to give up technology and live in a pastoral paradise and blend in with savages," I would have laughed at you. Because you know they wouldn't. You know that some asshole is going to keep a bunch of guns or an FTL drive or something so he or she can get a leg up over his competitors. You know some asshole is going to enslave the native tribes and build an empire that threatens the others. You know the luddites are going to have to deal with enforcing the technology ban and the moral hazards that that entails. You brought up Tom Zarick—you think he's the only one in the fleet who would have thought like that?

    No, I do not. You are absolutely 100% spot on.
    This murkey, complicated world and view of human nature has been the defining ideology of the show, and I think it's absurd for RDM to just all the sudden ignore it.

    I agree completely. It makes thematic sense but it is absurd. Where we disagree is that I'm saying that the wider 'point' of it, this Frankenstein-style questioning of hubris, creation and self-destruction, is more than worth some absurdity.

    The problem with the "let's build New New Caprica!" idea is that it would suggest the cycle was unbreakable; the Colonials and the Cylons might be getting along but they're not really dealing with the "original sin", as it were. "They" have done the same thing three times now and to repeat it again would be pretty nihistic. The virtue of it is that it'd be absolutely the most realistic eventuality- city dwellers would build a city.

    The problem with the "compromise" idea (the one that, y'know, absolutely makes the most sense) is that it would suggest the cycle was easy to break. It's, "Hey everyone, let's not be fucking douchebags with our technology and we can just be awesome to each other." The virtue of this is that it makes sense and it demonstrates moral development on the part of the leadership in their society and it's fairly realistic.

    The problem with the "cultural suicide" idea is that it's absurd, no one would ever do that except for deeply personal reasons like the Chief or Adama going off alone. The virtue of it is it challenges the audience's attitudes towards technology and (much more importantly) modern "first world" culture oriented around technology as it is, asks the questions the show has been asking from the beginning in the starkest manner possible, and ultimately just highlights the fundamental moral question of the show: Can humanity hide from the things that it has done? Can it play God, wash its hands of its creations, and then play God again?

    I'm on board with #3 because I like that a mainstream science fiction show is actually doing the kinds of things you see in the best science fiction literature- it analyses the human condition as it is now through the lens of how it might be with X miracle in play, like AI or immortality. For me, that's worth a little absurdity- it shoots for a higher purpose than just being a great TV show. Pretentious, yes, but a little bit daring as well and I can respect that.

    Professor Phobos on
  • DashuiDashui Registered User regular
    edited March 2009
    HamHamJ wrote: »
    HamHamJ wrote: »
    they can survive, even thrive as tribal agrarians

    No they can't.

    And why is that, oh master of all knowledge that pertains to dramatic theory and wilderness survival?

    a) They have no resistance to local diseases, nor do any crops they may have brough with them.

    b) They have no livestock afaik.

    c) They have no practical skills. Baltar knows farming? Yeah, I doubt it. He might know how to farm using modern fertilizer, modern pesticides, modern tools, etc. He doesn't fucking know how to farm using a stone plow and a horse (which they also don't even have... so I guess Baltar is pulling that plow himself).

    d) They have no idea what local plants are edible and which are posinious, and they will have to domestic crops from scratch which is a process that takes hundreds of years.

    e) Ditto for any animals they want to domesticate.

    f) Neither Helo nor Athena knows jack shit about hunting with a wooden bow. Or making one for that matter.

    g) They don't know how to build houses. Or wells. Or anything.

    Well, they did say they could mingle with the locals and teach them language, and I'm sure in response these locals could potentially teach them to survive. As far as building homes or wells or whatever, out of 30,000 people there has to be a few who can put some straw or wood together to make a basic structure. Or, you know, caves. People find all sorts of ways to survive. We don't just sit there and drown from the rain. It's not as if they won't eat anything because they don't know if it's edible or not. Someone will take a bite and try it, especially if they're hungry enough.

    Dashui on
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  • Casually HardcoreCasually Hardcore Once an Asshole. Trying to be better. Registered User regular
    edited March 2009
    F. God planned this out and you think god is stupid enough to make sure they're not immune to diseases?

    Casually Hardcore on
  • ButtcleftButtcleft Registered User regular
    edited March 2009
    Dashui wrote: »
    HamHamJ wrote: »
    HamHamJ wrote: »
    they can survive, even thrive as tribal agrarians

    No they can't.

    And why is that, oh master of all knowledge that pertains to dramatic theory and wilderness survival?

    a) They have no resistance to local diseases, nor do any crops they may have brough with them.

    b) They have no livestock afaik.

    c) They have no practical skills. Baltar knows farming? Yeah, I doubt it. He might know how to farm using modern fertilizer, modern pesticides, modern tools, etc. He doesn't fucking know how to farm using a stone plow and a horse (which they also don't even have... so I guess Baltar is pulling that plow himself).

    d) They have no idea what local plants are edible and which are posinious, and they will have to domestic crops from scratch which is a process that takes hundreds of years.

    e) Ditto for any animals they want to domesticate.

    f) Neither Helo nor Athena knows jack shit about hunting with a wooden bow. Or making one for that matter.

    g) They don't know how to build houses. Or wells. Or anything.

    Well, they did say they could mingle with the locals and teach them language, and I'm sure in response these locals could potentially teach them to survive. As far as building homes or wells or whatever, out of 30,000 people there has to be a few who can put some straw or wood together to make a basic structure. Or, you know, caves. People find all sorts of ways to survive. We don't just sit there and drown from the rain. It's not as if they won't eat anything because they don't know if it's edible or not. Someone will take a bite and try it, especially if they're hungry enough.


    People don't know how to go into caves.

    According to HamHam's logic, if they don't know how to do it, they can't do it. Its just a magic voodoo barrier that, apparently, can never be overcome.

    Buttcleft on
  • HamHamJHamHamJ Registered User regular
    edited March 2009
    F. God planned this out and you think god is stupid enough to make sure they're not immune to diseases?

    God arranged it so they would die out.

    HamHamJ on
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  • DashuiDashui Registered User regular
    edited March 2009
    F. God planned this out and you think god is stupid enough to make sure they're not immune to diseases?

    And it's not as if they probably have superior immune systems, what with coming from an advanced civilization and being spread out across twelve planets. They couldn't possibly survive. HamHamJ seems to make the assumption they'd just stand there and starve to death and give up immediately.

    Dashui on
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  • Der Waffle MousDer Waffle Mous Blame this on the misfortune of your birth. New Yark, New Yark.Registered User regular
    edited March 2009
    Obviously, the solution is to have a sexy lotion rubdown every episode.

    Der Waffle Mous on
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  • KrysanthemumKrysanthemum Registered User regular
    edited March 2009
    HamHamJ wrote: »
    F. God planned this out and you think god is stupid enough to make sure they're not immune to diseases?

    God arranged it so they would die out.

    Yes, that's definitely the message we should take away from this show.

    Geez, I'm an athetist too, but give it a rest.

    Krysanthemum on
  • DacDac Registered User regular
    edited March 2009
    Adama apparently built a fucking shack by himself. I'm pretty sure the rest of the fleet could manage to make houses.

    Not that I'm defending that someone 'guh?' decision to forsake technology, but Hamham, you're raising some pretty stupid objections to the idea of them being able to survive. Except the diseases thing. That's a good point.

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  • Der Waffle MousDer Waffle Mous Blame this on the misfortune of your birth. New Yark, New Yark.Registered User regular
    edited March 2009
    Man, f is pretty bullshit.

    SERE training is pretty fucking hardcore, and I would be surprised if the colonials didn't have an equivalent.

    Der Waffle Mous on
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  • jkylefultonjkylefulton Squid...or Kid? NNID - majpellRegistered User regular
    edited March 2009
    So...did Adama ever take money from a cash drawer?

    jkylefulton on
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  • Professor PhobosProfessor Phobos Registered User regular
    edited March 2009
    The really interesting thing is that there's absolutely a perfect practical reason to do what they did- if even a small portion of Cavil's forces survived, then if they gave up technology and just blended in with the primitive natives on Earth, even if one of Cavil's basestars found the system and looked at the planet, it wouldn't have any reason to waste the nukes on hut-dwelling primates.

    With the Fleet tossed into the sun, they'd have no electronic signatures, no evidence of Colonial visitation, no signals, etc.

    But with Cavil being wholly defeated somehow and the Rebel Centurions obviously cool enough with mankind not to come back in the intervening 150,000 years and nuke everything to ash, it wasn't necessary.

    Professor Phobos on
  • ButtcleftButtcleft Registered User regular
    edited March 2009
    So...did Adama ever take money from a cash drawer?

    I don't think it was a literal question, so much as a hypothetical for calibration purposes since he apparently had to do the lie detector to even get the job

    Buttcleft on
  • HamHamJHamHamJ Registered User regular
    edited March 2009
    Buttcleft wrote: »
    According to HamHam's logic, if they don't know how to do it, they can't do it. Its just a magic voodoo barrier that, apparently, can never be overcome.

    Again, if they are going to do it by trial and error, here is how I call the odds:

    Half die in the first winter/monsoon season/dry season (depending on what climate they are in). Within a year, only 10% of the groups will be alive and viable. Life expectancy plumits (compared to the colonies at least, maybe not the fleet) and within 10 years maybe 1% of the original population will be alive.

    HamHamJ on
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  • OremLKOremLK Registered User regular
    edited March 2009
    What makes you think Cavil's basestars wouldn't nuke the planet anyway because it's the only way to be sure? I could totally see them doing that.

    OremLK on
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  • ButtcleftButtcleft Registered User regular
    edited March 2009
    OremLK wrote: »
    What makes you think Cavil's basestars wouldn't nuke the planet anyway because it's the only way to be sure? I could totally see them doing that.

    I don't know, Cavil is a bastard, but a practical one. I can't see him expending resources for that.

    Buttcleft on
  • KageraKagera Imitating the worst people. Since 2004Registered User regular
    edited March 2009
    HamHamJ wrote: »
    Buttcleft wrote: »
    According to HamHam's logic, if they don't know how to do it, they can't do it. Its just a magic voodoo barrier that, apparently, can never be overcome.

    Again, if they are going to do it by trial and error, here is how I call the odds:

    Half die in the first winter/monsoon season/dry season (depending on what climate they are in). Within a year, only 10% of the groups will be alive and viable. Life expectancy plumits (compared to the colonies at least, maybe not the fleet) and within 10 years maybe 1% of the original population will be alive.

    I expect you have the credentials and reference material necessary to make this claim more than a guess?

    Kagera on
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  • DashuiDashui Registered User regular
    edited March 2009
    OremLK wrote: »
    What makes you think Cavil's basestars wouldn't nuke the planet anyway because it's the only way to be sure? I could totally see them doing that.

    They don't have resurrection technology. And then show jumped to 150,000 years later. I'm sure by then Cavil and the rest were probably dead.

    Edit: And dammit, HamHamJ, you're throwing out guess statistics and crap for a science fucking fiction show! One that didn't bother to address your statements. So what's the point of all your hollering?

    Dashui on
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  • HamHamJHamHamJ Registered User regular
    edited March 2009
    HamHamJ wrote: »
    F. God planned this out and you think god is stupid enough to make sure they're not immune to diseases?

    God arranged it so they would die out.

    Yes, that's definitely the message we should take away from this show.

    Geez, I'm an athetist too, but give it a rest.

    How else do you explain Hera being Mitochondrial Eve? Of the people on the planet at that time, including the Colonials, the Skinjobs, and the natives, she was the only one to have female descendants.

    HamHamJ on
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  • Casually HardcoreCasually Hardcore Once an Asshole. Trying to be better. Registered User regular
    edited March 2009
    Kagera wrote: »
    HamHamJ wrote: »
    Buttcleft wrote: »
    According to HamHam's logic, if they don't know how to do it, they can't do it. Its just a magic voodoo barrier that, apparently, can never be overcome.

    Again, if they are going to do it by trial and error, here is how I call the odds:

    Half die in the first winter/monsoon season/dry season (depending on what climate they are in). Within a year, only 10% of the groups will be alive and viable. Life expectancy plumits (compared to the colonies at least, maybe not the fleet) and within 10 years maybe 1% of the original population will be alive.

    I expect you have the credentials and reference material necessary to make this claim more than a guess?

    Sim City, Civilization, etc.

    Honestly, I'm not worry about the colonists being diseased to death. The colonists haves thousands of years of immune ass kicking experience, the planet haves nothing that is experienced in attacking the colonists. The biggest threat the colonists have from diseases is if a no pathogen, or parasite, jump the species hurdle and efficiently kills its host a little too well. But since the colonists are spread out, this wouldnt be a deal breaking event.

    Not to mention that the Skinjobs haves super duper immune systems.

    Casually Hardcore on
  • KrysanthemumKrysanthemum Registered User regular
    edited March 2009
    HamHamJ wrote: »
    HamHamJ wrote: »
    F. God planned this out and you think god is stupid enough to make sure they're not immune to diseases?

    God arranged it so they would die out.

    Yes, that's definitely the message we should take away from this show.

    Geez, I'm an athetist too, but give it a rest.

    How else do you explain Hera being Mitochondrial Eve? Of the people on the planet at that time, including the Colonials, the Skinjobs, and the natives, she was the only one to have female descendants.

    Definition: Mitochondrial Eve (mt-mrca) is the name given by researchers to the woman who is defined as the matrilineal most recent common ancestor (MRCA) for all currently living humans. Passed down from mother to offspring, her mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) is now found in all living humans: every mtDNA in every living person is derived from hers. Mitochondrial Eve is the female counterpart of Y-chromosomal Adam, the patrilineal most recent common ancestor, although they lived at different times.

    It doesn't mean that Hera was the only one of them that had children. It means that their offspring and her offspring bred together (as you would expect) to create the human race as we know it. Scientists found her skeleton. It doesn't mean she was the only one, it just means she was the only one found.

    Although, that really makes no sense for the people who went off to Australia.

    Krysanthemum on
  • jkylefultonjkylefulton Squid...or Kid? NNID - majpellRegistered User regular
    edited March 2009
    HamHamJ wrote: »
    HamHamJ wrote: »
    F. God planned this out and you think god is stupid enough to make sure they're not immune to diseases?

    God arranged it so they would die out.

    Yes, that's definitely the message we should take away from this show.

    Geez, I'm an athetist too, but give it a rest.

    How else do you explain Hera being Mitochondrial Eve? Of the people on the planet at that time, including the Colonials, the Skinjobs, and the natives, she was the only one to have female descendants.

    You're making the mistake of assuming that the BSG150k scientists/newspapers are actually correct, and/or that the skeleton we saw was Hera. Science changes over time. It's a fictional story.

    jkylefulton on
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  • OremLKOremLK Registered User regular
    edited March 2009
    It also does nothing to explain why she was so important, right? 'Cause that's the impression I got.

    OremLK on
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  • KageraKagera Imitating the worst people. Since 2004Registered User regular
    edited March 2009
    Although, that really makes no sense for the people who went off to Australia.

    They're Australian, who cares?

    Kagera on
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  • Professor PhobosProfessor Phobos Registered User regular
    edited March 2009
    Actually the implausibility here is not how they all survived, but why they didn't thrive. They're starting out with tremendous advantages in terms of knowledge, organizational skills- they have language, the motherfucking germ theory of disease which is like #1 on any responsible Time Traveler's list. Even accounting for inexperience living off the land (and note for a long time our ancestors didn't know what the hell they were doing on that score either), their birth/death rate would be a lot better than humans in real history had at the time. I mean, basic hygiene alone...

    There's really no reason every one of their settlements couldn't have taken off like a rocket. But 150,000 years is a long time, and sometimes civilizations just die out.

    EDIT: Note, Mitochondrial eve doesn't mean she was the only woman at the time to have children- we'd all be extinct if that were the case- just that if you go back far enough in time, everyone's got her in our family tree at some point.

    Professor Phobos on
  • Der Waffle MousDer Waffle Mous Blame this on the misfortune of your birth. New Yark, New Yark.Registered User regular
    edited March 2009
    I really, really fucking wish they didn't put that in.

    If only because it would mean there'd be less idiots who keep using the term and don't know what it actually means.

    Der Waffle Mous on
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  • DashuiDashui Registered User regular
    edited March 2009
    HamHamJ wrote: »
    HamHamJ wrote: »
    F. God planned this out and you think god is stupid enough to make sure they're not immune to diseases?

    God arranged it so they would die out.

    Yes, that's definitely the message we should take away from this show.

    Geez, I'm an athetist too, but give it a rest.

    How else do you explain Hera being Mitochondrial Eve? Of the people on the planet at that time, including the Colonials, the Skinjobs, and the natives, she was the only one to have female descendants.

    Because humans in the future probably have a good deal of hybrid/Cylon DNA in them. Guess whose DNA would closely match theirs? Hera's. She was the only hybrid at the time when they landed. The human model Cylons, I believe, stayed and probably mated with the Colonials. Therefore you have a lot more hybrids. Am I the only one seeing this? The earliest "human" who would match them in DNA would probably be Hera.

    Dashui on
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  • KageraKagera Imitating the worst people. Since 2004Registered User regular
    edited March 2009
    I really, really fucking wish they didn't put that in.

    If only because it would mean there'd be less idiots who keep using the term and don't know what it actually means.

    I know what it means. It means eventually our mitochondria are going to rebel and turn us all into goo monsters because some megabitch mitochondria thinks it's too good for us.

    Kagera on
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  • OremLKOremLK Registered User regular
    edited March 2009
    I really, really fucking wish they didn't put that in.

    If only because it would mean there'd be less idiots who keep using the term and don't know what it actually means.

    Yeah, so you've said twice now.

    Is there anyone who is pretending to know what it means but doesn't?

    Edit: Other than Kagera, of course :)

    OremLK on
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  • KrysanthemumKrysanthemum Registered User regular
    edited March 2009
    Dashui wrote: »
    HamHamJ wrote: »
    HamHamJ wrote: »
    F. God planned this out and you think god is stupid enough to make sure they're not immune to diseases?

    God arranged it so they would die out.

    Yes, that's definitely the message we should take away from this show.

    Geez, I'm an athetist too, but give it a rest.

    How else do you explain Hera being Mitochondrial Eve? Of the people on the planet at that time, including the Colonials, the Skinjobs, and the natives, she was the only one to have female descendants.

    Because humans in the future probably have a good deal of hybrid/Cylon DNA in them. Guess whose DNA would closely match theirs? Hera's. She was the only hybrid at the time when they landed. The human model Cylons, I believe, stayed and probably mated with the Colonials. Therefore you have a lot more hybrids. Am I the only one seeing this? The earliest "human" who would match them in DNA would probably be Hera.

    What's more, I should have posted this from the same Wiki thread.

    "The existence of Mitochondrial Eve and Y-chromosomal Adam does not imply the existence of population bottlenecks or a first couple. They each may have lived within a large human population at a different time."

    Krysanthemum on
  • Professor PhobosProfessor Phobos Registered User regular
    edited March 2009
    Dashui wrote: »
    HamHamJ wrote: »
    HamHamJ wrote: »
    F. God planned this out and you think god is stupid enough to make sure they're not immune to diseases?

    God arranged it so they would die out.

    Yes, that's definitely the message we should take away from this show.

    Geez, I'm an athetist too, but give it a rest.

    How else do you explain Hera being Mitochondrial Eve? Of the people on the planet at that time, including the Colonials, the Skinjobs, and the natives, she was the only one to have female descendants.

    Because humans in the future probably have a good deal of hybrid/Cylon DNA in them. Guess whose DNA would closely match theirs? Hera's. She was the only hybrid at the time when they landed. The human model Cylons, I believe, stayed and probably mated with the Colonials. Therefore you have a lot more hybrids. Am I the only one seeing this? The earliest "human" who would match them in DNA would probably be Hera.

    Again, Hera's not the only one to have female descendants, just that everyone eventually descends at some point in the chain from Hera. Women contemporary to mitochondrial Eve had plenty of children.

    Professor Phobos on
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