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Dubai: Where Hope And Also Stupid People Go To Die

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Posts

  • Gabriel_PittGabriel_Pitt Carrion-Eater Registered User regular
    Did anyone ask you to cry I river? We were just pointing out to Gaddez that he'd breath a whole lot easier without his head so far up his ass.

    Also, I really hope somone gets nailed with an infraction the next time they use 'bitch' in this thread. The way it's being used is even more cruel and derogatory than usual. The women in question went there because that's where the company her husband joined put him, and it seemed like a great place to live because Dubai goes to a lot of trouble to hide the bad spots. Are you automatically excluded from sympathy just because you live in the same area social injustice occurs in? Fuck, I'd better get the hell out of Baltimore before I try posting again. And don't even mention all the years I lived in Japan. I hope I didn't mention anything bad ever happening to me there, because apparently, fuck, I deserved it.

    Origin ID: Null_Cypher
  • Loren MichaelLoren Michael Registered User regular
    Nartwak wrote: »
    Not to mention, a lot of the time shit conditions are still better than their countries of origin.

    Now you're just copy-pasting from Pat Buchanan's blog.

    Nah, center for global development and the World Bank.

    http://cgdev.org/

    See: Let Their People Come

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  • Loren MichaelLoren Michael Registered User regular
    mcdermott wrote: »
    Not to mention, a lot of the time shit conditions are still better than their countries of origin.

    If that were the case, then why withhold their passports?

    Quoted because it bears repeating. If it's so much (or at all) better for them there, why do you need to keep them prisoner by taking their passport and withholding their wages?

    I wasn't being categorical. I was stating that a lot of guest worker programs do in fact create second, third or fourth class citizens. But thats still often elevating them from being seventh and eighth class. I'm not saying Dubai doesn't have problems, I'm saying the people who got caught up in them don't deserve what they got, and that guest worker programs aren't inherently bad. Dubai is apparently an exception to the latter.

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  • NartwakNartwak Registered User
    Yeah, you're right Loren slavery is better. Say what is that significant-pause other stuff you do?

    Spoiler:
  • mcdermottmcdermott Registered User regular
    Nartwak wrote: »
    Yeah, you're right Loren slavery is better. Say what is that significant-pause other stuff you do?

    Slave trading.
    Spoiler:

  • BamaBama Registered User regular
    Saammiel wrote: »
    When someone sells you a bill of goods that is all sunshine and rainbows, any rational person knows that there is going to be some sort of catch.
    A scam is a scam.

    "Despite all the bitching, if Diablo 3 sucks, I will eat my own cock. Counter-claim: If Diablo 3 does not suck, I will have a list of whiners who need to eat cocks." - Zen Vulgarity
  • Loren MichaelLoren Michael Registered User regular
    Keeping people chained to economically barren or tumultuous and dangerous locations to starve or get raped to death is obviously the way to go, Nartwak. Glad you cleared that up.

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  • RustRust __BANNED USERS
    Keeping people chained to economically barren or tumultuous and dangerous locations to starve or get raped to death is obviously the way to go, Nartwak. Glad you cleared that up.

    What is the significant-pause other, kiddo?

    You don't want to try and wrap yourself in mystique while defending class exploitation. It's a good way to make lots of people imagine your yellow guts wrapped around a stick.

  • BamaBama Registered User regular
    Yea I mean those African tribes were always killing one another anyway.

    "Despite all the bitching, if Diablo 3 sucks, I will eat my own cock. Counter-claim: If Diablo 3 does not suck, I will have a list of whiners who need to eat cocks." - Zen Vulgarity
  • NartwakNartwak Registered User
    Looks like they still are plus they get to be forced to work all day, Loren Micheal!! Whoops!

    I'm really interested in your significant-pause other stuff. What is it?

    Spoiler:
  • Gabriel_PittGabriel_Pitt Carrion-Eater Registered User regular
    Saammiel wrote: »
    Gaddez wrote: »
    No, I'm an asshole, not an idiot.
    Wrong again, you're most assuredly an idiot.

    The problem with that 'dumb bitch' is the same thing wrong with just about every other foreigner who has found themself in a bad situation there. They were a little naive, and Dubai puts a lot of effort into covering up everything that's wrong with it. When the company her husband worked for sent him there, do you think they made a point of mentioning that he could end up in debtor's prison, unable to depart the country? You read what most of the Emiratis were saying. How much effort do you think their government has put into making it look convincing that Dubai is a place you want to be? It's smoke and mirrors that a lot of people have fallen for, so that makes it all right to say, 'fuck 'em?'

    It isn't exactly hard to look up what the system of government is in Dubai if you are a Westerner. It isn't hard at all to do some basic research as to their laws and customs.
    Yes, and that information was probably provided by the company her husband was working for. Also, I can't speak for anyone else, but it simply would not occur to me to research the specific laws pertaining to 'what happens if I lose my job and still have debt?' especially if I'm being relocated to a city that advertises itself as being so very civilized and western.

    And then there's the stuff that you would really have to be digging for, like finding out, 'an Emirati kicks the shit out of you on the street. You don't fight back, and when the police arrive, who is arrested and sent to jail for assault?'

    Origin ID: Null_Cypher
  • Loren MichaelLoren Michael Registered User regular
    Exploitation is sometimes (I would argue often times) better than the alternative. If the north Koreans were exploited but given some autonomy by South Korean business interests (as opposed to the current totalitarian situation), it's still almost certainly better than their current conditions. In cases like Dubai it's apparent that some times exploitation is worse than the alternative.

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  • HachfaceHachface Registered User regular
    re: Dubai

    Let us preserve its ruins as a memorial to man's hubris.

    Listen to History Lessons With Caleb, Mike & Terry, a podcast for the ill-informed.
  • widowsonwidowson Registered User
    mcdermott wrote: »
    Not to mention, a lot of the time shit conditions are still better than their countries of origin.

    If that were the case, then why withhold their passports?

    Quoted because it bears repeating. If it's so much (or at all) better for them there, why do you need to keep them prisoner by taking their passport and withholding their wages?

    I wasn't being categorical. I was stating that a lot of guest worker programs do in fact create second, third or fourth class citizens. But thats still often elevating them from being seventh and eighth class. I'm not saying Dubai doesn't have problems, I'm saying the people who got caught up in them don't deserve what they got, and that guest worker programs aren't inherently bad. Dubai is apparently an exception to the latter.


    I get what you're saying, that a crappy job beats the hell out of starving to death in a third world shithole and is the first rung in the ladder out of poverty.

    This is why I always ask people who are totally against globalization: Why do you hate the world's poor so much? These are fellow humans who can now work jobs making our iPods, big screen TVs, and cars and afford to buy their own food instead of being permanant dependants of food aid handouts often stolen by thuggish, corrupt governments?



    Issue is that guest worker programs are *so* easily abusable and *so* often abused that little good comes from them.

    I was stationed in Korea for a year and these Phillapino and Russian women that wanted honest work got their passports taken away from them and got forced into prostitution to get them back.

    Even american English teachers get fucked on their salaries because the Korean legal system still has the mentality of the people which essentially is if you're not one of us, fuck you. Not knocking Koreans, it's a very human response; i.e. tribalization.

    Look at how illegal mexican immigrants get treated. Because they have no legal standing, they get abused a lot.

    The more humane solution is either build your office/factory in that country or have workers because outright citizens to avoid abuse. People suck; if they can abuse labor and get away with it, sadly, most will.

    -I owe nothing to Women's Lib.

    Margaret Thatcher
  • Loren MichaelLoren Michael Registered User regular
    Rust wrote: »
    Keeping people chained to economically barren or tumultuous and dangerous locations to starve or get raped to death is obviously the way to go, Nartwak. Glad you cleared that up.

    What is the significant-pause other, kiddo?

    You don't want to try and wrap yourself in mystique while defending class exploitation. It's a good way to make lots of people imagine your yellow guts wrapped around a stick.

    It's not really relevant unless you want to make an ad homonym.

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  • Gabriel_PittGabriel_Pitt Carrion-Eater Registered User regular
    Offhand, I can't think of a living situation in the Philippines that would make living in one of the construction labor camps a preferable alternative. There are despicably poor communities, but at least they're not virtual prisoners in the middle of the desert.

    Origin ID: Null_Cypher
  • SaammielSaammiel Registered User regular
    Saammiel wrote: »

    It isn't exactly hard to look up what the system of government is in Dubai if you are a Westerner. It isn't hard at all to do some basic research as to their laws and customs.
    Yes, and that information was probably provided by the company her husband was working for. Also, I can't speak for anyone else, but it simply would not occur to me to research the specific laws pertaining to 'what happens if I lose my job and still have debt?' especially if I'm being relocated to a city that advertises itself as being so very civilized and western.

    And then there's the stuff that you would really have to be digging for, like finding out, 'an Emirati kicks the shit out of you on the street. You don't fight back, and when the police arrive, who is arrested and sent to jail for assault?'

    It wouldn't occur to you to research local laws when you are moving to a different continent, with a radically different cultural heritage? It would occur to me to do so if I were moving to the UK and that is a hell of a lot less different than the UAE is. And no one is going to advertise itself as some barren hellhole, a person raised in a society as media saavy as the UK or US should very well understand these things.

    I can certainly feel sorry for exploited third world workers. They don't have the resources or cultural knowledge to account for the tactics used against them.

  • Gabriel_PittGabriel_Pitt Carrion-Eater Registered User regular
    Actually pay attention to my post please. When I moved to Japan, I made sure I knew what was relevant if i say, got in a fight, or was in a car accident, or something normal like that. 'What happens if I quit my job and still have an outstanding credit card bill' is something that rarely anyone would actually think of as something that needs to be specifically researched.
    widowson wrote: »
    I get what you're saying, that a crappy job beats the hell out of starving to death in a third world shithole and is the first rung in the ladder out of poverty.
    In regards to immigrant workers, they are most certainly not the type starving to death in a third world shit hole. Someone like that would be worthless as a maid or construction worker, and if you're living in that kind of condition, you're too busy scrabbling for daily survival to be able to raise the money to get to Dubai in the first place.

    Origin ID: Null_Cypher
  • Loren MichaelLoren Michael Registered User regular
    Thank you widowson, that's exactly what I would have liked to have typed if I didn't have to go to bed like right now. Immigration is pretty much the best and least popular way to deal with world poverty. Immigration could be a lot better than it is via governments and if nutcase reactionary nativists and such would get an education, which would cut down on a lot of the abuses.

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  • HachfaceHachface Registered User regular
    And also even if it is true that workers in developing nations are better off working in poor conditions for barely any pay than they are without jobs at all, this still strikes me as a remarkably weak defense when you consider how much the corporations who employ these people could be paying them while at the same time reaping incredible profits.

    If I am feasting at a great banquet and a starving man crawls up to my front door begging for food, merely throwing him a bone does not fulfill my moral obligation to that man.

    Listen to History Lessons With Caleb, Mike & Terry, a podcast for the ill-informed.
  • RustRust __BANNED USERS
    Hachface wrote: »
    re: Dubai

    Let us preserve its ruins as a memorial to man's hubris.

    Look upon my works ye mighty and etc. etc.

    Seriously the city's going to collapse into dust and while I hope the underclass gets out somehow the rich can drown in it for all I care.

  • Loren MichaelLoren Michael Registered User regular
    posts 1952 and 1961 Hatchface. I hope English isn't your native language, because Jesus I only mentioned it twice, and one of them was only directly above your last post.

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  • Loren MichaelLoren Michael Registered User regular
    Hachface wrote: »
    And also even if it is true that workers in developing nations are better off working in poor conditions for barely any pay than they are without jobs at all, this still strikes me as a remarkably weak defense when you consider how much the corporations who employ these people could be paying them while at the same time reaping incredible profits.

    If I am feasting at a great banquet and a starving man crawls up to my front door begging for food, merely throwing him a bone does not fulfill my moral obligation to that man.

    You'd much rather criticize the bonethrowers so that they don't or can't give anything at all. Gotcha.

    2ezikn6.jpg
  • HachfaceHachface Registered User regular
    No, Loren, you actually haven't fielded a "good" response. Again, if guest workers in Dubai generally felt that working in Dubai was a better deal, it wouldn't be necessary to confiscate their passports. Also see my other comment regarding immigration labor.

    Listen to History Lessons With Caleb, Mike & Terry, a podcast for the ill-informed.
  • widowsonwidowson Registered User
    widowson wrote: »
    I get what you're saying, that a crappy job beats the hell out of starving to death in a third world shithole and is the first rung in the ladder out of poverty.
    In regards to immigrant workers, they are most certainly not the type starving to death in a third world shit hole. Someone like that would be worthless as a maid or construction worker, and if you're living in that kind of condition, you're too busy scrabbling for daily survival to be able to raise the money to get to Dubai in the first place.


    Point made, was speaking more in relation to globalization, but still.....

    Look at what Mexico city is like. They have fecal snow because it's so crowded the crap dries, blows around, and comes back down in flake form. With the recent nacro war, some northern mexican states are worse than Iraq right now, to include beheadings.

    Fuck, I'll mow some dude's lawn in California rather than live in that. Dude is probably abusing me a little, but beats the shit out of the hellhole I was in.

    Again, doesn't justify the abuse and I'm all for reforming stupid immigration laws that punish legal immigrants and encourage illegal immigration and abuse, but it's still a step up.

    -I owe nothing to Women's Lib.

    Margaret Thatcher
  • Gabriel_PittGabriel_Pitt Carrion-Eater Registered User regular
    Rust wrote: »
    Seriously the city's going to collapse into dust and while I hope the underclass gets out somehow the rich can drown in it for all I care.
    They're not. The rich will have their planes and their boats, and maybe even cars with enough gas capacity to get to safety. All the immigrants will die of heat and thirst.

    Origin ID: Null_Cypher
  • widowsonwidowson Registered User
    Thank you widowson, that's exactly what I would have liked to have typed if I didn't have to go to bed like right now. Immigration is pretty much the best and least popular way to deal with world poverty. Immigration could be a lot better than it is via governments and if nutcase reactionary nativists and such would get an education, which would cut down on a lot of the abuses.


    Don't post tired.

    I did it once and it didn't end well. :P

    -I owe nothing to Women's Lib.

    Margaret Thatcher
  • Loren MichaelLoren Michael Registered User regular
    Hachface wrote: »
    No, Loren, you actually haven't fielded a "good" response. Again, if guest workers in Dubai generally felt that working in Dubai was a better deal, it wouldn't be necessary to confiscate their passports. Also see my other comment regarding immigration labor.

    I forgive you because English obviously isn't your first language, but I fail you because Jesus how can you fail so hard.

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  • RustRust __BANNED USERS
    Rust wrote: »
    Seriously the city's going to collapse into dust and while I hope the underclass gets out somehow the rich can drown in it for all I care.
    They're not. The rich will have their planes and their boats, and maybe even cars with enough gas capacity to get to safety. All the immigrants will die of heat and thirst.

    Let me dream you horrible man.

  • Santa ClaustrophobiaSanta Claustrophobia Ho Ho Ho Disconnecting from Xbox LIVERegistered User regular
    Hachface wrote: »
    And also even if it is true that workers in developing nations are better off working in poor conditions for barely any pay than they are without jobs at all, this still strikes me as a remarkably weak defense when you consider how much the corporations who employ these people could be paying them while at the same time reaping incredible profits.

    If I am feasting at a great banquet and a starving man crawls up to my front door begging for food, merely throwing him a bone does not fulfill my moral obligation to that man.

    You'd much rather criticize the bonethrowers so that they don't or can't give anything at all. Gotcha.

    What's the alternative? Praising the bonethrowers for doing the bare minimum to salve their conscience? Clearly, doing anything to help wasn't the motive behind tossing scraps.

    PAsig7.png
    You're muckin' with a G!
  • NartwakNartwak Registered User
    Hatchface wrote:
    No, Loren, you actually haven't fielded a "good" response. Again, if guest workers in Dubai generally felt that working in Dubai was a better deal, it wouldn't be necessary to confiscate their passports. Also see my other comment regarding immigration labor.
    What,
    My slaves should be grateful they're not dead or retarded.
    isn't a good enough response?

    Spoiler:
  • HachfaceHachface Registered User regular
    Hachface wrote: »
    No, Loren, you actually haven't fielded a "good" response. Again, if guest workers in Dubai generally felt that working in Dubai was a better deal, it wouldn't be necessary to confiscate their passports. Also see my other comment regarding immigration labor.

    I forgive you because English obviously isn't your first language, but I fail you because Jesus how can you fail so hard.

    OK so I misread one of your posts.
    You're still an apologist for exploitation.
    But hey that's a great reason to be a dick, right?

    Listen to History Lessons With Caleb, Mike & Terry, a podcast for the ill-informed.
  • Gabriel_PittGabriel_Pitt Carrion-Eater Registered User regular
    Rust wrote: »
    Rust wrote: »
    Seriously the city's going to collapse into dust and while I hope the underclass gets out somehow the rich can drown in it for all I care.
    They're not. The rich will have their planes and their boats, and maybe even cars with enough gas capacity to get to safety. All the immigrants will die of heat and thirst.

    Let me dream you horrible man.
    Why dream? If enough people are made to know, they when the rotting foundations of the city collapse beneath it and it all comes falling down, we'll be ready, with our Chuck Norrises and our jeeps, ready to crash through the barbed wire fences to carry them all off to safey, closing with a long shot of the dust trail of our caravan floating off into the desert night.

    Origin ID: Null_Cypher
  • mcdermottmcdermott Registered User regular
    widowson wrote: »
    Look at how illegal mexican immigrants get treated. Because they have no legal standing, they get abused a lot.

    Actually, illegal immigrants do have legal standing as far as basic civil rights go, and if they were to show up at the police station and rat you out for the kind of shit expats in Dubai pull you'd have some 'splainin to do. The charges may not stick, but you'd have a harder time getting away with it in the future.

    And our government would go out of their way to ensure that the illegal immigrant found their way back to their country of origin. :P
    No, Loren, you actually haven't fielded a "good" response. Again, if guest workers in Dubai generally felt that working in Dubai was a better deal, it wouldn't be necessary to confiscate their passports. Also see my other comment regarding immigration labor.

    No, he responded to it. It was basically *mumble*I guess Dubai is an example of it being bad*mumble* but a little exploitation can really benefit some people! It's super!

  • GaddezGaddez Registered User regular
    Saammiel wrote: »
    Gaddez wrote: »
    No, I'm an asshole, not an idiot.
    Wrong again, you're most assuredly an idiot.

    The problem with that 'dumb bitch' is the same thing wrong with just about every other foreigner who has found themself in a bad situation there. They were a little naive, and Dubai puts a lot of effort into covering up everything that's wrong with it. When the company her husband worked for sent him there, do you think they made a point of mentioning that he could end up in debtor's prison, unable to depart the country? You read what most of the Emiratis were saying. How much effort do you think their government has put into making it look convincing that Dubai is a place you want to be? It's smoke and mirrors that a lot of people have fallen for, so that makes it all right to say, 'fuck 'em?'

    It isn't exactly hard to look up what the system of government is in Dubai if you are a Westerner. It isn't hard at all to do some basic research as to their laws and customs.
    Yes, and that information was probably provided by the company her husband was working for. Also, I can't speak for anyone else, but it simply would not occur to me to research the specific laws pertaining to 'what happens if I lose my job and still have debt?' especially if I'm being relocated to a city that advertises itself as being so very civilized and western.

    And then there's the stuff that you would really have to be digging for, like finding out, 'an Emirati kicks the shit out of you on the street. You don't fight back, and when the police arrive, who is arrested and sent to jail for assault?'
    Wait, Let me get this straight.

    You don't think that It would be pertinent to investigate the Goverment and/or laws of a forign country that you and your signifigant other are being transfered to for buisness reasons?

    If I were to make such a drastic change in my lifestyle, I'd want to study the fucking crap out of said nation; Even if it was Just to move a hundread miles south into the US.

    Spoiler:
  • Loren MichaelLoren Michael Registered User regular
    Hachface wrote: »
    And also even if it is true that workers in developing nations are better off working in poor conditions for barely any pay than they are without jobs at all, this still strikes me as a remarkably weak defense when you consider how much the corporations who employ these people could be paying them while at the same time reaping incredible profits.

    If I am feasting at a great banquet and a starving man crawls up to my front door begging for food, merely throwing him a bone does not fulfill my moral obligation to that man.

    You'd much rather criticize the bonethrowers so that they don't or can't give anything at all. Gotcha.

    What's the alternative? Praising the bonethrowers for doing the bare minimum to salve their conscience? Clearly, doing anything to help wasn't the motive behind tossing scraps.

    That is an excellent alternative. Praising them, possibly making it something common and legal so that it could be regulated. If more people get in on the bonethrowing, that would be excellent.

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  • Robos A Go GoRobos A Go Go Registered User regular
    The way I see it, by living in Dubai she made use of the pseudo-slave labor, and that makes her guilty. The fact that she is, even at her lowest point, living a better life than the lower class is a stroke of good fortune for which she should be immensely thankful.

    She gets to go home, and that's more than a person who learned about slavery in school but still did not oppose when she saw it firsthand deserves.

  • Loren MichaelLoren Michael Registered User regular
    Hachface wrote: »
    You're still an apologist for exploitation.

    I'm anti-world-poverty.

    I guess you should feel awful for being on the other side of that fence.

    EDIT: Bedtime now.

    2ezikn6.jpg
  • HachfaceHachface Registered User regular
    What's the alternative? Praising the bonethrowers for doing the bare minimum to salve their conscience? Clearly, doing anything to help wasn't the motive behind tossing scraps.

    That is an excellent alternative. Praising them, possibly making it something common and legal so that it could be regulated. If more people get in on the bonethrowing, that would be excellent.

    I know that as a believer in Robert Wright you have faith that the forces of commerce will inevitably unite the world and bring up the quality of life for everyone, but surely encouraging a bit more compassion --through law, if possible -- in the process along the way wouldn't hurt.

    Listen to History Lessons With Caleb, Mike & Terry, a podcast for the ill-informed.
  • widowsonwidowson Registered User
    Hachface wrote: »
    And also even if it is true that workers in developing nations are better off working in poor conditions for barely any pay than they are without jobs at all, this still strikes me as a remarkably weak defense when you consider how much the corporations who employ these people could be paying them while at the same time reaping incredible profits.

    If I am feasting at a great banquet and a starving man crawls up to my front door begging for food, merely throwing him a bone does not fulfill my moral obligation to that man.

    You'd much rather criticize the bonethrowers so that they don't or can't give anything at all. Gotcha.

    What's the alternative? Praising the bonethrowers for doing the bare minimum to salve their conscience? Clearly, doing anything to help wasn't the motive behind tossing scraps.


    Now this is an interesting problem.

    On one hand, you've got the "Rich man and lazurus" parable of Jesus where the rich man goes to hell, for doing just that out of scorn, giving lazurus next to nothing out of scorn.

    On the other, there's a Jewish saying that "The smallest kindness is better than the greatest intent." I.E. we can write posts about the world's poor all damn day and it won't change shit, but some guy who gives $5 to a charity on a whim in the checkout line, has done more.

    Guess it comes down to intent and result?

    Consider this:

    There was some Africa concert a few years back that raised millions for feeding starving africans. Food aid concert? I don't know. I *do* remember that very little of the food made it to the intended recipients with most of it stolen by typically corrupt government officials or rotted in the ports.

    However, some guy who builds a factory in Africa and creates/provides a few hundred jobs may actually be doing more as jobs, create a tax base, which creates a tax base for building infrastructure, which creates sanitation, ect.

    We all play video games. How do you improve your provinces in strategy games? Build infrastructure.

    -I owe nothing to Women's Lib.

    Margaret Thatcher
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