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Piggy Influenza (Summary in OP)

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Posts

  • Fuzzy Cumulonimbus CloudFuzzy Cumulonimbus Cloud Registered User regular
    I didn't know you were an immunologist, [Tycho]. Please explain to the rest of us how and what a cytokine storm is, including the molecular mechanisms.

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  • TL DRTL DR Registered User regular
    So what else could it be, FCC?

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  • Delicious Toad!Delicious Toad! __BANNED USERS
    So what else could it be, FCC?
    I think his point is that one of the most glaring issues right now is that we haven't had someone under full-out laboratory scrutiny for the duration of the infection. 'Cytokine storms' is an abbreviated way of describing the ultimate result of a variety of immune responses, which have a distinctly different relationship wrt influenzavirus than, say, sepsis or transplant rejection.

    The information filtering through to the public is information that means jack and shit from a technical perspective, and is also kind of weirdly patchy. We were fed the 60/1000 figures for Mexico from early Friday all the way into this Sunday morning, when they updated them to ... 80/1300 (or thereabouts, estimates are starting to get all over the fucking bullshitty place). Jumping from 'high mortality rate among the young' (they are using aged older than 5 and lesser than 60 as 'young,' by the way) to oh no, it must be cytokine storms is doubly premature because it's not something detectable without intense laboratory scrutiny, and also because the human physiological condition has changed in some profound ways with the advance of modern medicine. Whether the widespread immune response issues of 1918 even could be repeated in modern, 1st-world nations is a contested issue.

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  • NeadenNeaden Registered User regular
    Ew. And it acts the same as the spanish flu.

    Kills the healthy via a cytokine storm. The stronger your immune system, the more likely it is to kill you. So people like me who almost never get sick normally would be royally fucked while old people and infants should end up fine.

    Of course it's hopefully not that bad, and is probably just this years version of "ZOMG BURD FLU PANIC"

    Obviously we should just all massively irradiate our bodies to make ourselves immunocompromised. It's the only safe thing.

  • HonkHonk Registered User regular
    Neaden wrote: »
    Ew. And it acts the same as the spanish flu.

    Kills the healthy via a cytokine storm. The stronger your immune system, the more likely it is to kill you. So people like me who almost never get sick normally would be royally fucked while old people and infants should end up fine.

    Of course it's hopefully not that bad, and is probably just this years version of "ZOMG BURD FLU PANIC"

    Obviously we should just all massively irradiate our bodies to make ourselves immunocompromised. It's the only safe thing.

    Tss... HIV shots are easier to acquire.

  • FyreWulffFyreWulff Registered User, ClubPA regular
    America's obesity and poor health will turn out to save us in the end?

    Is M. Night Shamalalalan pulling the strings?

  • Fuzzy Cumulonimbus CloudFuzzy Cumulonimbus Cloud Registered User regular
    So what else could it be, FCC?
    I'm less concerned with what it is and more concerned with baseless, amateur armchair science-ing that both the press and general public are doing.

    3FMmC.jpg
  • Fuzzy Cumulonimbus CloudFuzzy Cumulonimbus Cloud Registered User regular
    So what else could it be, FCC?
    I think his point is that one of the most glaring issues right now is that we haven't had someone under full-out laboratory scrutiny for the duration of the infection. 'Cytokine storms' is an abbreviated way of describing the ultimate result of a variety of immune responses, which have a distinctly different relationship wrt influenzavirus than, say, sepsis or transplant rejection.

    The information filtering through to the public is information that means jack and shit from a technical perspective, and is also kind of weirdly patchy. We were fed the 60/1000 figures for Mexico from early Friday all the way into this Sunday morning, when they updated them to ... 80/1300 (or thereabouts, estimates are starting to get all over the fucking bullshitty place). Jumping from 'high mortality rate among the young' (they are using aged older than 5 and lesser than 60 as 'young,' by the way) to oh no, it must be cytokine storms is doubly premature because it's not something detectable without intense laboratory scrutiny, and also because the human physiological condition has changed in some profound ways with the advance of modern medicine. Whether the widespread immune response issues of 1918 even could be repeated in modern, 1st-world nations is a contested issue.
    You couldn't have put it better. Let's all remember that car accidents are killing more people right now than the next speculative pandemic. Let's remember that the deaths are in a highly impoverished area, and that god knows who is doing the diagnosing down there.

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  • AstraphobiaAstraphobia Registered User regular
    So what else could it be, FCC?
    I'm less concerned with what it is and more concerned with baseless, amateur armchair science-ing that both the press and general public are doing.

    I'm just waiting for the conservative talking-heads to say Obama has been doing too much/too little in response to this "crisis."

    The armchair science from Republicans is always humorous. See: Boehner & cow farts and Michelle Bachman & CO2.

    You: GOD NEVERMIND, I'LL JUST CALL THE FUCKING WONDER TWINS MAYBE THEY CAN UNITE TO FORM A FUCKING CLUE FOR YOU
  • HonkHonk Registered User regular
    A local tabloid is headlining:
    Vaccines don't bite on swine-flu!!!
    WHO: We don't know how the virus is spreading!!!

    Which are both pretty much bullshit... World Health Organization doesn't know how a flu virus spreads, really? Stupid asshole newspapers. Freedom of speech = lie blatantly and make up things and then call them "quotes" from experts.

  • LindenLinden Registered User regular
    Aetiology on cytokine storms. Because it was just so topical. Could we perhaps be slightly less unhelpfully aggressive here?

    Astraphobia: Please don't remind me. It hurts my brain to think that those people are anywhere near positions of power.

    What if this weren't a rhetorical question?
  • cooljammer00cooljammer00 Cleaning at Your Mom's HouseRegistered User regular
    I live in New York City. With this pig flu shit hitting a school in Queens and a MRSA outbreak at my old school on Long Island I've sort of got an urge to be cautious.

  • HonkHonk Registered User regular
    So what else could it be, FCC?
    I'm less concerned with what it is and more concerned with baseless, amateur armchair science-ing that both the press and general public are doing.

    I'm just waiting for the conservative talking-heads to say Obama has been doing too much/too little in response to this "crisis."

    The armchair science from Republicans is always humorous. See: Boehner & cow farts and Michelle Bachman & CO2.

    Hey! Don't piss on the repubs. After all, what is further down south from Mexico? That's right, Venezuela is. So Mexico is between Venezuela and the US - if you go from Venezuela to the US you'll pass through Mexico! And who did Obama shake hands with lovingly last week? That's right, Latino Stalin Chavez...

    Do you seriously not see the socialist plot of mass destruction?

  • Delicious Toad!Delicious Toad! __BANNED USERS
    Linden wrote: »
    Aetiology on cytokine storms. Because it was just so topical. Could we perhaps be slightly less unhelpfully aggressive here?

    Astraphobia: Please don't remind me. It hurts my brain to think that those people are anywhere near positions of power.
    Man if I was getting paid as much as this person was I would totally be aggressively helpful, in the meantime I'm-a play Pokemon and take the short-and-easy ways out. ;P

    But hey, at least we are all in agreement! Too soon to know anything ... and thusly, time for more Pokemon. 8-)

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  • HonkHonk Registered User regular
    Linden wrote: »
    Aetiology on cytokine storms. Because it was just so topical. Could we perhaps be slightly less unhelpfully aggressive here?

    Astraphobia: Please don't remind me. It hurts my brain to think that those people are anywhere near positions of power.
    Man if I was getting paid as much as this person was I would totally be aggressively helpful, in the meantime I'm-a play Pokemon and take the short-and-easy ways out. ;P

    But hey, at least we are all in agreement! Too soon to know anything ... and thusly, time for more Pokemon. 8-)

    Pokemans are like flu strains... Gotta catch 'em all!

  • MKRMKR Registered User regular
    Anyone have a tl;dr of the current situation? I haven't had time to read the whole thread. O:

  • LindenLinden Registered User regular
    Authorities have observed a strain of influenza that hasn't come to light previously. This appears to be fairly virulent, and there's evidence that it's spread significantly. Most details are unknown, but WHO considers it of concern. Schools in Mexico City are closed, similarly some in the US. These are precautionary measures - this entire thing could be a non-issue, or it could be serious. We don't know, as it's just too early.

    What if this weren't a rhetorical question?
  • DanHibikiDanHibiki Registered User regular
    Honk wrote: »
    Linden wrote: »
    Aetiology on cytokine storms. Because it was just so topical. Could we perhaps be slightly less unhelpfully aggressive here?

    Astraphobia: Please don't remind me. It hurts my brain to think that those people are anywhere near positions of power.
    Man if I was getting paid as much as this person was I would totally be aggressively helpful, in the meantime I'm-a play Pokemon and take the short-and-easy ways out. ;P

    But hey, at least we are all in agreement! Too soon to know anything ... and thusly, time for more Pokemon. 8-)

    Pokemans are like flu strains... Gotta catch 'em all!

    and every year a new version come out.

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  • cooljammer00cooljammer00 Cleaning at Your Mom's HouseRegistered User regular
    Linden wrote: »
    Authorities have observed a strain of influenza that hasn't come to light previously. This appears to be fairly virulent, and there's evidence that it's spread significantly. Most details are unknown, but WHO considers it of concern. Schools in Mexico City are closed, similarly some in the US. These are precautionary measures - this entire thing could be a non-issue, or it could be serious. We don't know, as it's just too early.

    That's not enough fearmongering!

    End of days, Umbrella Corp., Raccoon City, etc.

  • MKRMKR Registered User regular
    I sure am glad I saw this coming and bought zombie apocalypse insurance.

  • LindenLinden Registered User regular
    Linden wrote: »
    Authorities have observed a strain of influenza that hasn't come to light previously. This appears to be fairly virulent, and there's evidence that it's spread significantly. Most details are unknown, but WHO considers it of concern. Schools in Mexico City are closed, similarly some in the US. These are precautionary measures - this entire thing could be a non-issue, or it could be serious. We don't know, as it's just too early.

    That's not enough fearmongering!

    End of days, Umbrella Corp., Raccoon City, etc.

    Oh, come on. If you want to do that, you have to blame it on gay marriage.

    What if this weren't a rhetorical question?
  • [Tycho?][Tycho?] Registered User regular
    I didn't know you were an immunologist, [Tycho]. Please explain to the rest of us how and what a cytokine storm is, including the molecular mechanisms.

    We all know how to find wikipedia.

    We have a flu that is killing healthy young adults.

    Cytokine storms have, in past pandemic flus, been responsible for killing young, healthy adults.

    If young, healthy adults are in fact dying in unusually high numbers, then a cytokine storm is a very likely reason for this. I don't think this is a terribly unreasonable assumption to make, and of course this is early days yet, so little is known about this bug.

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  • Delicious Toad!Delicious Toad! __BANNED USERS
    I wish that one of the thousands of news sources covering this could get a better statistic than when Mexico said on Friday "many of the victims are young and healthy adults"

    or more statistics in general

    at all

    about any of this

    seriously I hope the weekday news cycles bring something better than the dick-waving the weekend got us. :x

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  • Fuzzy Cumulonimbus CloudFuzzy Cumulonimbus Cloud Registered User regular
    [Tycho?] wrote: »
    I didn't know you were an immunologist, [Tycho]. Please explain to the rest of us how and what a cytokine storm is, including the molecular mechanisms.

    We all know how to find wikipedia.

    We have a flu that is killing healthy young adults.

    Cytokine storms have, in past pandemic flus, been responsible for killing young, healthy adults.

    If young, healthy adults are in fact dying in unusually high numbers, then a cytokine storm is a very likely reason for this. I don't think this is a terribly unreasonable assumption to make, and of course this is early days yet, so little is known about this bug.
    I'm just going to relink this http://scienceblogs.com/aetiology/2009/04/swine_flu_and_deaths_in_health.php. It's pretty obvious you have no idea what a cytokine storm is, let alone what it does, its molecular emphasis (that is the particular cytokines expressed themselves), or how it operates in a host.

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  • [Tycho?][Tycho?] Registered User regular
    For stats keep checking wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009_H1N1_influenza_outbreak

    No age break downs yet, but lots of info by country, back ground info, influenza and virus information in general. And if/when more detailed statistics are released they'll probably show up on this page. They've even got a map!

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  • override367override367 Registered User regular
    What's the death toll in America and Europe up to?

  • Delicious Toad!Delicious Toad! __BANNED USERS
    I meant academically-significant statistics. ;P

    The outbreak pattern stopped being interesting when it was a given that it was going to spread across the world, and that was Saturday. :wink:

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  • Delicious Toad!Delicious Toad! __BANNED USERS
    Also there is LITERALLY HUNDREDS OF LINE OF INCORRECT INFORMATION on this page. It's people linking a bunch of news that they don't understand and believing it means things that it doesn't. This is one of those moments I need to shake my head sullenly at Wikipedia. :(

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  • durandal4532durandal4532 Registered User regular
    I just updated the Wiki to accurately reflect that Delicious Toads are one of the major carriers of the virus.

  • [Tycho?][Tycho?] Registered User regular
    [Tycho?] wrote: »
    I didn't know you were an immunologist, [Tycho]. Please explain to the rest of us how and what a cytokine storm is, including the molecular mechanisms.

    We all know how to find wikipedia.

    We have a flu that is killing healthy young adults.

    Cytokine storms have, in past pandemic flus, been responsible for killing young, healthy adults.

    If young, healthy adults are in fact dying in unusually high numbers, then a cytokine storm is a very likely reason for this. I don't think this is a terribly unreasonable assumption to make, and of course this is early days yet, so little is known about this bug.
    I'm just going to relink this http://scienceblogs.com/aetiology/2009/04/swine_flu_and_deaths_in_health.php. It's pretty obvious you have no idea what a cytokine storm is, let alone what it does, its molecular emphasis (that is the particular cytokines expressed themselves), or how it operates in a host.

    Cool, I'm going to update the OP, I'll put this on there.

    No, I don't know how a cytokine storm operates in a host, why would I? I made this thread because I wanted a central place to collect and disseminate information with other people. I don't know jack shit about whats actually going on, I'm just putting relevant information out there so I (we) can keep track of whats going on. If you're going to criticize me you might as well accuse me of fear mongering, its more topical (and was one of the recommended discussion points!).

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  • AegeriAegeri Registered User regular
    Honk wrote: »
    A local tabloid is headlining:
    Vaccines don't bite on swine-flu!!!
    WHO: We don't know how the virus is spreading!!!

    Which are both pretty much bullshit... World Health Organization doesn't know how a flu virus spreads, really? Stupid asshole newspapers. Freedom of speech = lie blatantly and make up things and then call them "quotes" from experts.

    There are some problems with this. The first is the question of if the virus is spreading person to person, or if there is some other particular route of transmission such as from an animal source (EG the original pig host) to human. In one case, if it can spread person to person you have a considerably bigger problem than if the virus spreads from a pig to a human host, but not between people. Pathogenic influenza viruses (really nasty ones) often kill people because they are mutated in such a way they bind to receptors in the lung much further down the respiratory tract. This ensures that the virus is much more dangerous than if it was further up the respiratory tract, but means that the virus has a really tough time getting back out of the host again. This isn't the only reason for potential pathogenicity though. The 1918 spanish flu virus had a mutation in its polymerase and was otherwise similar to other viruses at the time in its haemagglutinin and neuraminidase.

    I don't believe it's probably easily spreading from person to person at this stage, but it is a concerning virus because if it can get into people it can meet human influenza viruses. If it can meet human influenza viruses, they can have a "chat" and perhaps switch some genes.

    Then we have a problem.

  • Fuzzy Cumulonimbus CloudFuzzy Cumulonimbus Cloud Registered User regular
    You're fear mongering because cytokine storm sounds rather terrifying, whereas its pretty rare, and usually not related to viruses. :P

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  • FencingsaxFencingsax Registered User regular
    What's the death toll in America and Europe up to?
    I wasn't aware that anyone had died yet.

    Edit: Anyone outside of Mexico, obviously.


    Because 9% think it's too high, and shouldn't be cut! 9% of respondents could not fully
    get their arms around the question. There should be another box you can check for, "I
    have utterly no idea what you're talking about. Please, God, don't ask for my input."
  • MKRMKR Registered User regular
    What's the death toll in America and Europe up to?

    About 5 newspapers, and the ghost of journalism got a bit of a flogging.

  • AegeriAegeri Registered User regular
    Flu vaccines from earlier this year should be pretty goddamn effective. :D

    Not necessarily. Influenza viruses have extremely high rates of mutations within their receptors. From a study I did last year, I found there were often 6-8 different point mutations strung out between different strains of influenza from the US. Although not all point mutations lead to different amino acids, where they did the predicted structure that I came up with was going to be considerably different. Such changes in structure can obliterate antibody binding sites and effectively disguise the virus.

    Additionally, there was already a paper published recently on this virus from the CDC examining 2 cases in California*. The CDC study indicates that the current flu vaccine might not be effective and they speculated on person to person transmission, because they couldn't determine any contact with pigs for the two cases. This is what has the CDC and WHO worried. Sequencing of the viral genome is being done at the moment, so I am curious to see how it will stack up with the vaccine strain and other circulating influenza strains.

    Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC). Swine Influenza A (H1N1) infection in two children--Southern California, March-April 2009. MMWR Morb Mortal Wkly Rep. 2009 Apr 24;58(15):400-2.

  • [Tycho?][Tycho?] Registered User regular
    You're fear mongering because cytokine storm sounds rather terrifying, whereas its pretty rare, and usually not related to viruses. :P

    Perfect.

    So, I'm updating the OP so that it can be a one stop "what the fuck is going on" summary. Can I get some input from you guys? Mostly directed at you FCC as well as Toad.

    Key questions:
    Swine flu? H1N1? Influenza? Pandemic? Cytokine storm? We should probably have some definitions.

    Where/when did it start? The media got a hold of it in its current form on friday, but people started catching this in mexico and possibly the US a couple weeks (if not longer) ago.

    Am I in danger? Should I not travel? Should I stock up on food for the population decline? I think "use common sense, and listen (exclusively if need be) to public health officials (ie CDC, WHO).

    I don't feel like updating it more than a couple times, so info that will remain good, and links to sources of info are what I'll be including.

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  • KungFuKungFu Registered User regular
    Is the reason no deaths have occurred outside of Mexico just related to the short amount of time that the virus has had to take effect or is it related to societal & health factors of these other countries?

    Theft 4 Bread
  • Delicious Toad!Delicious Toad! __BANNED USERS
    I'm confused about how, though, when flu serotypes are identified by what antibodies they provoke production of in the body, and both the new virus and the vaccine strain are of the same serotype -- and therefore produce the same antibody response, and therefore a response predicated in persons who took the vaccine. I don't know a lot about how antibodies actually work, though, so I'll chalk it up to my own lack of knowledge and yield to the CDC's comment.

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  • Delicious Toad!Delicious Toad! __BANNED USERS
    KungFu wrote: »
    Is the reason no deaths have occurred outside of Mexico just related to the short amount of time that the virus has had to take effect or is it related to societal & health factors of these other countries?
    We don't know, there's almost no academically-relevant information available at this point, same as was on Friday. Hopefully this turns around soon.

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  • KenninatorKenninator Registered User regular
    MKR wrote: »
    What's the death toll in America and Europe up to?

    About 5 newspapers, and the ghost of journalism got a bit of a flogging.

    Ba-zing!

    But yeah, nobody.

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