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New Comic Thread: Wednesday, April 29, 2009

1234568

Posts

  • DefenderDefender Registered User regular
    edited April 2009
    Defender wrote: »
    Anyway, it looks like they've created a really cool world, and they talk a lot about story and claim to have good combat and all that. I think the idea is super kickass awesome. I hope the execution follows.

    Ditto. I'm also pretty pumped about some of the proposed combat maneuvers and the hand to hand stuff. Hearing that the martial art is supposed to be based off of American Kenpo made me all tingly inside. I'm also pretty curious how they're going to work out the stealth option, something that was woefully missing from Mass Effect.

    Did you study that too? I wonder who they got to help with it.

    hello massa, I jar jar binks
    I've overheard someone say "Don't say something is retarded, its not cool to make fun of retards. Just say its gay."
  • Me Too!Me Too! __BANNED USERS regular
    edited April 2009
    I think Prototype learned the lessons, it comes out June 9

    I give no shit I'll buy that week when I make a comic run

  • DefenderDefender Registered User regular
    edited April 2009
    Me Too! wrote: »
    I'm looking forward to Mass Effect 2

    I'm feelin all tingly in my shorts just thinking about it

    Also for prototype but god knows when that comes out

    I'm terrified that Prototype will not learn the lessons of Assassin's Creed, but the longer it stays in development, the less chance there is that'll happen.

    I hope.

    Well, OK, hold on. First, AC was Ubisoft, and this isn't. Second, AC was just a shitty game that they made to cover the cost of building their attempt to replace UE3. It never came close to achieving the gameplay that they said was in there and they knew it. It was just hype and an empty product. This is made by people who really seem like they give a crap.

    hello massa, I jar jar binks
    I've overheard someone say "Don't say something is retarded, its not cool to make fun of retards. Just say its gay."
  • Me Too!Me Too! __BANNED USERS regular
    edited April 2009
    God I am so looking forward to tearing through NYC with superpowers and cutting fuckers up with blades and jumping off buildings and PEW PEW

  • Darth WaiterDarth Waiter Cowboy Fwankenstein Livin' That DreamRegistered User regular
    edited April 2009
    Defender wrote: »
    Did you study that too? I wonder who they got to help with it.

    Only in a peripheral fashion; I'd bet they got Ed Parker Jr. himself or one of his stronger students.

    And yeah, Ubisoft screwed the pooch and Obsidian has a darned good track record; you can't really lay KOTOR II at their door because Lucas Arts rushed them for some ungodly reason.

    darthsig.jpg
  • InquisitorInquisitor Registered User regular
    edited April 2009
    Defender wrote: »
    Wiggin's correct. There's no reason to do it. Like imagine if you were playing rock, paper, scissor, ginsu. Ginsu is just like scissor, except that in ginsu versus scissor, ginsu wins. There is now no practical reason whatsoever to use scissor. Why would you? Ginsu is the same or better in every possible case, so scissor doesn't need to be in the game any more. That's how good the counter-attack in AC is. It's as good as or better than every other option in every case except for a few very small exceptions, most notably the last fight in the game, where you should use throwing knives in one specific situation.

    We're just using the word reason differently Defender. You are using the word reason to mean "tangible in game mechanical benefit to the player" I am using the word reason to mean "the basis or motive for action, decision, or conviction"

    My reason for not solely using counter-attacks in AC is because it makes it a piss poor boring game. It might not be the most efficient from a mechanical game play stand point, but it is more fun.

    By your logic, there is no reason to do a pistol only run in a game for example. While there is a reason for some (they enjoy the challenge and it makes it more fun to them). There is more to videogames, especially single player videogames, then doing things in the most efficient way possible. Maybe I'm just not as jaded and bitter as you. :P

    B7ozVfx.png
  • DefenderDefender Registered User regular
    edited April 2009
    Inquisitor wrote: »
    My reason for not solely using counter-attacks in AC is because it makes it a piss poor boring game. It might not be the most efficient from a mechanical game play stand point, but it is more fun.

    OK, that first sentence contains the critical flaw. "Doing what works makes the game boring." That right there means that it's a bad game. The player should not have to make up his own rules and/or play badly on purpose for the game to be fun.

    Also, I find the game boring as shit anyway, because every single element of the entire thing is just no-skill grinding. There are six things you can do in town: Save a civilian from guards, pick pockets, eavesdrop (literally just sit on a bunch and listen to VO), beat a guy up, assassinate targets in public, and collect flags. Of those, the only one that's actually challenging at all is "assassinate targets in public" because you have a short time to do it, multiple targets, and you have to remain undetected. And that one I encountered twice, total, in the entire game. Maybe there were more than two, but I only happened across two.

    Then you have the story, which continually leads you through like there's some big, intricate plot waiting for you, and the ending is a huge let-down (see my earlier "end spoiler").
    Inquisitor wrote: »
    By your logic, there is no reason to do a pistol only run in a game for example. While there is a reason for some (they enjoy the challenge and it makes it more fun to them). There is more to videogames, especially single player videogames, then doing things in the most efficient way possible. Maybe I'm just not as jaded and bitter as you. :P

    OK, so two things. First, that's what Achievements/Trophies are for. Second, if the game is made right, the player should find it prohibitively hard to do that unless he's played the game for a ridiculous amount of time and is so obscenely good at it that there's no challenge left. This should be very rare, like the guys who try to get the highest possible score in Pac-Man. As an example, imagine playing through the WC3 campaign using only tier 1 units with no upgrades. Or playing Resident Evil 5 and never using guns outside of boss battles. If the game is designed right, the player should be sufficiently challenged that unless he's god-like at it, he enjoys playing his best.

    The same thing happens with games like MGS. Players eventually start doing no-kill and no-detection runs, but only once they've gotten so ridiculously good that they're breezing through Extreme difficulty. AC, on the other hand, is so grindy and easy that players who haven't even finished it need to create challenge artificially.

    hello massa, I jar jar binks
    I've overheard someone say "Don't say something is retarded, its not cool to make fun of retards. Just say its gay."
  • redheadredhead Registered User
    edited April 2009
    defender isn't criticizing players who chose to use attacks other than the counter-attack, he's criticizing the developer for making it too good. the developer controls what the "tangible in game mechanical benefits to the player" actually are, and if there's one attack that's so good it renders the others useless for the rest of the game, most of the time that's poor design. if the player finds a way to make the game fun in spite of the developer's poor design by ignoring the most effective way to play, then good for them. but then you're effectively playing a different game, so that's not a credit to the developer and it doesn't make the game good again. it would be like if I made a game in which the players are supposed to jam darts into their eyes to win, and you discovered that it's way more fun if you play by throwing the darts at a dartboard instead. that might make the game fun, but it's not the same game, so I, the developer, don't deserve credit for making it good.

    so yes, there's no built-in reason to do a pistol only run (in most games), because the game itself doesn't reward you for that style of play by making it very effective. you can choose to do it anyway, but then, again, you're playing a different game. the developer controls what styles of play give what kinds of rewards on the assumption that most players will play the game the way that is most heavily rewarded. if the pistol can't kill anything after level 2, the developer can safely assume that most people will drop it to grab an assault rifle. since that's what most players are going to do, the assault rifle needs to be fun to use-- if the pistol is really entertaining and the assault rifle is boring as hell to use but really effective, then the player has an annoying dilemma and the game gets less fun. that's the developer's fault. if the player overcomes it by deciding, "oh, what the hell, I'll just keep the pistol just to make things tough" and it turns out that that's fun to do, then good for them. but that isn't an example of good game design.

  • Ness445Ness445 Registered User regular
    edited April 2009
    Redhead, I read your post and agree with all of your points, and I guess I prefer it over some ALLCAPS message, but some capitalization has never actively hurt anyone (unless this is not true, unless...a capital letter...murdered your father and then raped his dead corpse).

    4445.gif
  • Darth WaiterDarth Waiter Cowboy Fwankenstein Livin' That DreamRegistered User regular
    edited April 2009
    Ness445 wrote: »
    Redhead, I read your post and agree with all of your points, and I guess I prefer it over some ALLCAPS message, but some capitalization has never actively hurt anyone (unless this is not true, unless...a capital letter...murdered your father and then raped his dead corpse).

    Well, it's no backslash, drenched in bloody fury.

    darthsig.jpg
  • Punsie McKalePunsie McKale Registered User
    edited May 2009
    so mercenaries 2, the game that I orginally bought a 360 to play half a year ago and finally got around to playing?

    lame lame lame

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • Ness445Ness445 Registered User regular
    edited May 2009
    Ness445 wrote: »
    Redhead, I read your post and agree with all of your points, and I guess I prefer it over some ALLCAPS message, but some capitalization has never actively hurt anyone (unless this is not true, unless...a capital letter...murdered your father and then raped his dead corpse).

    Well, it's no backslash, drenched in bloody fury.
    I want a Mr. Period application to run in the corner of Firefox, softly tutting to himself every time I make some terrible error in spelling/punctuation.

    4445.gif
  • Darth WaiterDarth Waiter Cowboy Fwankenstein Livin' That DreamRegistered User regular
    edited May 2009
    Ness445 wrote: »
    I want a Mr. Period application to run in the corner of Firefox, softly tutting to himself every time I make some terrible error in spelling/punctuation.

    I would pay many rape dollars for this.

    darthsig.jpg
  • Ness445Ness445 Registered User regular
    edited May 2009
    It would be a constant moral support.

    I long for his approval.

    4445.gif
  • Speed RacerSpeed Racer I'm Speed Racer and I drive real fast. I drive real fast, I'm gonna last.Registered User regular
    edited May 2009
    The MSWord paperclip would've been so much better if it silently judged you every time you made a typo.

    speedsig2_zps388d2098.jpg
  • Me Too!Me Too! __BANNED USERS regular
    edited May 2009
    Backslash would fuck the MSWord paperclip up

  • redheadredhead Registered User
    edited May 2009
    Ness445 wrote: »
    Redhead, I read your post and agree with all of your points, and I guess I prefer it over some ALLCAPS message, but some capitalization has never actively hurt anyone (unless this is not true, unless...a capital letter...murdered your father and then raped his dead corpse).

    yeah I usually use caps and stuff if it's gonna be a long post, but that one started out small and grew on me

    and I didn't feel like going back in and adding them

  • DefenderDefender Registered User regular
    edited May 2009
    Redhead understands.

    hello massa, I jar jar binks
    I've overheard someone say "Don't say something is retarded, its not cool to make fun of retards. Just say its gay."
  • Blake TBlake T Registered User regular
    edited May 2009
    Man all I'm saying is that I had fun playing the damm game.

  • DefenderDefender Registered User regular
    edited May 2009
    Blaket wrote: »
    Man all I'm saying is that I had fun playing the damm game.

    That makes you a bad person.

    hello massa, I jar jar binks
    I've overheard someone say "Don't say something is retarded, its not cool to make fun of retards. Just say its gay."
  • Me Too!Me Too! __BANNED USERS regular
    edited May 2009
    I still have fun playing it

    I get on and run across Acre and Jerusalem. Damascus not so much for some reason

  • Speed RacerSpeed Racer I'm Speed Racer and I drive real fast. I drive real fast, I'm gonna last.Registered User regular
    edited May 2009
    Defender wrote: »
    Inquisitor wrote: »
    My reason for not solely using counter-attacks in AC is because it makes it a piss poor boring game. It might not be the most efficient from a mechanical game play stand point, but it is more fun.

    OK, that first sentence contains the critical flaw. "Doing what works makes the game boring." That right there means that it's a bad game. The player should not have to make up his own rules and/or play badly on purpose for the game to be fun.

    I half-agree with you, half-don't. On one hand you're definitely right, it speaks to bad game design if playing well breaks the game. On the other hand, if I have the choice of either bitching about how broken a move is or just ignoring the move and playing the otherwise perfectly fine game, I'd go for the latter and I think it's a little ridiculous to do otherwise.

    That said I didn't think Assassin's Creed was all that great even when I ignored the counter, so whatever. Maybe the wrench in Bioshock would be a better example.

    speedsig2_zps388d2098.jpg
  • Punsie McKalePunsie McKale Registered User
    edited May 2009
    defender, start a little game review site

    I'd read it

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • DefenderDefender Registered User regular
    edited May 2009
    Defender wrote: »
    Inquisitor wrote: »
    My reason for not solely using counter-attacks in AC is because it makes it a piss poor boring game. It might not be the most efficient from a mechanical game play stand point, but it is more fun.

    OK, that first sentence contains the critical flaw. "Doing what works makes the game boring." That right there means that it's a bad game. The player should not have to make up his own rules and/or play badly on purpose for the game to be fun.

    I half-agree with you, half-don't. On one hand you're definitely right, it speaks to bad game design if playing well breaks the game. On the other, if I have the choice of either bitching about how broken move is or just ignoring the move and playing the otherwise perfectly fine game, I'd go for the latter and I think it's a little ridiculous to do otherwise.

    That said I didn't think Assassin's Creed was all that great even when I ignored the counter, so whatever. Maybe the wrench in Bioshock would be a better example.

    I think you might actually more than half-agree with me. As I said, even if you ignore the bad combat, the majority of the game is spent grinding no-skill activities/running boring errands. The only interesting errand I ever had to run was killing people in the streets without getting caught and within a certain time limit. But that happened exactly twice in the entire game. The final boss fight was pretty good, too, although that fight made counters even more important because I think the last boss is the only guy in the game who can counter you (actually the second-to-last boss might also have counters, I forget), so making direct attacks is a super-dumb idea.

    hello massa, I jar jar binks
    I've overheard someone say "Don't say something is retarded, its not cool to make fun of retards. Just say its gay."
  • DefenderDefender Registered User regular
    edited May 2009
    defender, start a little game review site

    I'd read it

    Thanks. I would like to, actually. The problem with that is that I think I could get fired for conflict of interest. Also there are times when I am critical of games that are connected in some corporate way to my own company.

    hello massa, I jar jar binks
    I've overheard someone say "Don't say something is retarded, its not cool to make fun of retards. Just say its gay."
  • Metzger MeisterMetzger Meister Registered User regular
    edited May 2009
    Defender wrote: »
    defender, start a little game review site

    I'd read it

    Thanks. I would like to, actually. The problem with that is that I think I could get fired for conflict of interest. Also there are times when I am critical of games that are connected in some corporate way to my own company.

    Well once you get fired for all the intravenous drug abuse and the mafia connections, what'll be stopping you?

    www.facebook.com/itgetsworseska
    Spoiler:
  • Punsie McKalePunsie McKale Registered User
    edited May 2009
    woah, defender, you work at a game company?

    which one?

    ah, you can't say, I bet. Conflict of interest

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • Munkus BeaverMunkus Beaver Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited May 2009
    Defender wrote: »
    defender, start a little game review site

    I'd read it

    Thanks. I would like to, actually. The problem with that is that I think I could get fired for conflict of interest. Also there are times when I am critical of games that are connected in some corporate way to my own company.

    So keep it anonymous?

    Steam name: munkus_beaver
    Blizzard thing: munkus#1952
    Nintendo ID (3DS thinger): munkusbeaver
    Please give to the Crohn's and Colitis Foundation of America: http://www.ccfa.org/
    Humor can be dissected, as a frog can, but it dies in the process.
  • Munkus BeaverMunkus Beaver Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited May 2009
    woah, defender, you work at a game company?

    which one?

    ah, you can't say, I bet. Conflict of interest

    Of all the companies out there, software companies would be the first ones I would think of that would do internet checks of their employees.

    It wouldn't be a good business move to proclaim that you work for a company on a public posting profile, unless you were doing so as a rep.

    Steam name: munkus_beaver
    Blizzard thing: munkus#1952
    Nintendo ID (3DS thinger): munkusbeaver
    Please give to the Crohn's and Colitis Foundation of America: http://www.ccfa.org/
    Humor can be dissected, as a frog can, but it dies in the process.
  • Speed RacerSpeed Racer I'm Speed Racer and I drive real fast. I drive real fast, I'm gonna last.Registered User regular
    edited May 2009
    Defender wrote: »
    Defender wrote: »
    Inquisitor wrote: »
    My reason for not solely using counter-attacks in AC is because it makes it a piss poor boring game. It might not be the most efficient from a mechanical game play stand point, but it is more fun.

    OK, that first sentence contains the critical flaw. "Doing what works makes the game boring." That right there means that it's a bad game. The player should not have to make up his own rules and/or play badly on purpose for the game to be fun.

    I half-agree with you, half-don't. On one hand you're definitely right, it speaks to bad game design if playing well breaks the game. On the other, if I have the choice of either bitching about how broken move is or just ignoring the move and playing the otherwise perfectly fine game, I'd go for the latter and I think it's a little ridiculous to do otherwise.

    That said I didn't think Assassin's Creed was all that great even when I ignored the counter, so whatever. Maybe the wrench in Bioshock would be a better example.

    I think you might actually more than half-agree with me. As I said, even if you ignore the bad combat, the majority of the game is spent grinding no-skill activities/running boring errands. The only interesting errand I ever had to run was killing people in the streets without getting caught and within a certain time limit. But that happened exactly twice in the entire game. The final boss fight was pretty good, too, although that fight made counters even more important because I think the last boss is the only guy in the game who can counter you (actually the second-to-last boss might also have counters, I forget), so making direct attacks is a super-dumb idea.
    Yeah I'm not arguing that Assassin's Creed is a good game at all. It was bland and repetitive and I quit about halfway through. All I was saying was that if some hypothetical game is fun as long as you don't use a broken strategy, you're better to spend your time not using the broken strategy than you are to use it and whine about how boring the game is when you do.

    speedsig2_zps388d2098.jpg
  • AMP'dAMP'd Registered User regular
    edited May 2009
    Me Too! wrote: »
    I still have fun playing it

    I get on and run across Acre and Jerusalem. Damascus not so much for some reason

    I always liked Acre the least, except for on the ship level.

    The whole decay thing put me off.

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • Me Too!Me Too! __BANNED USERS regular
    edited May 2009
    Climbing the fucking cathedral is a blast man

    All the way to the top of the cross

  • Speed RacerSpeed Racer I'm Speed Racer and I drive real fast. I drive real fast, I'm gonna last.Registered User regular
    edited May 2009
    AMP'd wrote: »
    Me Too! wrote: »
    I still have fun playing it

    I get on and run across Acre and Jerusalem. Damascus not so much for some reason

    I always liked Acre the least, except for on the ship level.

    The whole decay thing put me off.

    Was that the place with the crazy people that hit you constantly but you couldn't hit back without drawing attention?

    Because fuck that place.

    speedsig2_zps388d2098.jpg
  • AMP'dAMP'd Registered User regular
    edited May 2009
    AMP'd wrote: »
    Me Too! wrote: »
    I still have fun playing it

    I get on and run across Acre and Jerusalem. Damascus not so much for some reason

    I always liked Acre the least, except for on the ship level.

    The whole decay thing put me off.

    Was that the place with the crazy people that hit you constantly but you couldn't hit back without drawing attention?

    Because fuck that place.

    Dudes were everywhere, but they had that one hospital mission in Acre.

    Of course, they had the ship level there, and I loved that one.

    Also the party one in Damascus was excellent.

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • Me Too!Me Too! __BANNED USERS regular
    edited May 2009
    The hospital kill was my favorite for the awesome "run across rafters and jump out a window" escape

    Ship was my least, for how hard it was to get there unseen and then take that fucker out, still unseen

  • AMP'dAMP'd Registered User regular
    edited May 2009
    The ship was the one I got totally unawares - he had his back turned and I came up behind him.

    I also really liked jumping on the poles to get to the boat, and climbing that view point the first time.

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • The GeekThe Geek Oh-Two Crew Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited May 2009
    Defender wrote: »
    defender, start a little game review site

    I'd read it

    Thanks. I would like to, actually. The problem with that is that I think I could get fired for conflict of interest. Also there are times when I am critical of games that are connected in some corporate way to my own company.

    Your mom's connected in some corporate way to your own company.

    zappsigsm.jpg
    Amazon wish list | Please check out my wife's blog and jewelry store.
  • DefenderDefender Registered User regular
    edited May 2009
    Defender wrote: »
    Defender wrote: »
    Inquisitor wrote: »
    My reason for not solely using counter-attacks in AC is because it makes it a piss poor boring game. It might not be the most efficient from a mechanical game play stand point, but it is more fun.

    OK, that first sentence contains the critical flaw. "Doing what works makes the game boring." That right there means that it's a bad game. The player should not have to make up his own rules and/or play badly on purpose for the game to be fun.

    I half-agree with you, half-don't. On one hand you're definitely right, it speaks to bad game design if playing well breaks the game. On the other, if I have the choice of either bitching about how broken move is or just ignoring the move and playing the otherwise perfectly fine game, I'd go for the latter and I think it's a little ridiculous to do otherwise.

    That said I didn't think Assassin's Creed was all that great even when I ignored the counter, so whatever. Maybe the wrench in Bioshock would be a better example.

    I think you might actually more than half-agree with me. As I said, even if you ignore the bad combat, the majority of the game is spent grinding no-skill activities/running boring errands. The only interesting errand I ever had to run was killing people in the streets without getting caught and within a certain time limit. But that happened exactly twice in the entire game. The final boss fight was pretty good, too, although that fight made counters even more important because I think the last boss is the only guy in the game who can counter you (actually the second-to-last boss might also have counters, I forget), so making direct attacks is a super-dumb idea.
    Yeah I'm not arguing that Assassin's Creed is a good game at all. It was bland and repetitive and I quit about halfway through. All I was saying was that if some hypothetical game is fun as long as you don't use a broken strategy, you're better to spend your time not using the broken strategy than you are to use it and whine about how boring the game is when you do.

    In the short term, yes. In the long term, though, it means that the game doesn't have depth. Without depth, it isn't going to last, because you can't get better at it.

    hello massa, I jar jar binks
    I've overheard someone say "Don't say something is retarded, its not cool to make fun of retards. Just say its gay."
  • DefenderDefender Registered User regular
    edited May 2009
    AMP'd wrote: »
    AMP'd wrote: »
    Me Too! wrote: »
    I still have fun playing it

    I get on and run across Acre and Jerusalem. Damascus not so much for some reason

    I always liked Acre the least, except for on the ship level.

    The whole decay thing put me off.

    Was that the place with the crazy people that hit you constantly but you couldn't hit back without drawing attention?

    Because fuck that place.

    Dudes were everywhere, but they had that one hospital mission in Acre.

    Of course, they had the ship level there, and I loved that one.

    Also the party one in Damascus was excellent.

    That's another thing that broke the "anonymous person in the crowd" feel. Beggars and drunks and violent psychopaths all just knew who you were, picked you alone out of the crowd to harass and/or assault, and if you hit back, even without a weapon, all of a sudden the cops were on you. In the later parts of the game, they became more common, presumably to raise the challenge level.

    hello massa, I jar jar binks
    I've overheard someone say "Don't say something is retarded, its not cool to make fun of retards. Just say its gay."
  • DefenderDefender Registered User regular
    edited May 2009
    woah, defender, you work at a game company?

    which one?

    ah, you can't say, I bet. Conflict of interest

    Of all the companies out there, software companies would be the first ones I would think of that would do internet checks of their employees.

    It wouldn't be a good business move to proclaim that you work for a company on a public posting profile, unless you were doing so as a rep.

    Yeah, it's not the best idea. Plus, what if they release a bad game and I review it and call it out for being shit? That's not good.

    Regarding "just keep it anonymous," I'm actually trying to honor my obligations here, not just do whatever I feel like and not get caught. If I start a second business, I have to OK it with my company. They have to agree that it doesn't have any conflicts with my work. And even if they do agree to that, my anonymity is blown at that point and they could change their mind about it conflicting with my job at any moment.

    hello massa, I jar jar binks
    I've overheard someone say "Don't say something is retarded, its not cool to make fun of retards. Just say its gay."
This discussion has been closed.