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My sleep schedule is making life impossible

UnknownSaintUnknownSaint Registered User
edited May 2009 in Help / Advice Forum
I'm sure people on this forum can relate, but here are some details.

-Since about high school (I'm about in my last year of college) I've had an extremely difficult time sleeping. Would take hours to get to sleep unless I was just completely mentally and physically exhausted. I was always half-asleep during my first few classes, my grades suffered for it. I tried staying awake all day after little sleep, I tried getting around 8 hours between some naps spaced out throughout the day, nothing ever worked and I was always unable to get to sleep consistently when I needed to.

This eventually made my first few jobs quite difficult after a while, where even what should have been an easy schedule of 10am-5pm work was just awful.

I've been pretty successful avoiding early morning classes and as a result have done quite well in college. Couldn't manage it this quarter which I'm about halfway through and would love to get this in check for a strong finish.


-Every so often I have some mild success 'resetting' my sleep schedule by staying up about 5 hours later for 3-4 days straight until I can sleep for about a week from 10pm-6am or so. It's quite nice, but inch by inch, hour by hour, it will become 11-7, 2-10, so on and so forth until it is completely unreasonable again. I try to be disciplined and consistent about it but I can't really help that I simply feel tired later and later every night, even if I am in bed at the same time.

-I haven't been on any prescription sleep meds, but I find relying on things like Tylenol PM to force myself to sleep at a certain time is pretty dicey - for one I'd really like to not develop a strong reliance on that stuff, and it seems no matter how much sleep I get on that stuff (while it makes falling asleep blessedly easier) I am still tired in the morning and put off waking up as much as possible.


So any advice? This is something I really need to get under control, it's affecting just too much of my life and avoiding it won't be possible forever.



-tl:dr I have wildly inconsistent and troublesome sleep habits, help me become normal.

UnknownSaint on

Posts

  • oncelingonceling Registered User
    edited May 2009
    Without prescription, I expect your best bets are any combination of the following:

    1. Have a strict routine, for starters.

    2. Exercise in the afternoon or evening.

    3. Eat last meal early (ie: before 730pm or so)

    4. No caffeine/sugar for at least 4 hours before bed (longer if you can)

    5. You may want to sleep with the blinds open and force your body through hours of sunlight in the morning. Or, a light lamp or whatever they are called for the same effect.

    6. Melatonin.

  • gobassgogobassgo Registered User
    edited May 2009
    Get a better/more comfortable mattress.
    I used to have trouble sleeping, but as soon as I made my bed more comfortable I've been sleeping like a log.

  • desdinovadesdinova Registered User regular
    edited May 2009
    First things first, have you ever had a sleep study done? You may just have a treatable sleep disorder.
    Are you eating well? Getting any exercise? Are you depressed? Any of those things can affect your sleep.

    The easiest thing you can do to try to get 'normal' is to keep the same schedule every single day and don't oversleep on days that you can get away with it. Shut off your computer and don't play games in bed. Don't drink any soda/energy drinks/coffee after noon at all.

    No matter what the root of the problem is, there's probably not a very good chance of you fixing it yourself. Not if you've been at it for the last three years.

    wat
  • ruzkinruzkin Registered User regular
    edited May 2009
    Get away from the computer at least an hour before your bedtime. The blue light of a monitor works in the same way on the brain as sunlight - it kicks your brain into wakey-mode in a way that a bedside lamp won't.

    So -

    1) Turn off your PC at nine.
    2) Do an hour of pushups, situps and star-jumps until you're too exhausted to move
    3) Crawl into bed and fall asleep.

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  • BEAST!BEAST! Adventurer Adventure!!!!!Registered User regular
    edited May 2009
    ruzkin wrote: »
    Get away from the computer at least an hour before your bedtime. The blue light of a monitor works in the same way on the brain as sunlight - it kicks your brain into wakey-mode in a way that a bedside lamp won't.

    So -

    1) Turn off your PC at nine.]
    i couldn't agree more....computer and tv are really terrible on the sleep schedule

  • UnknownSaintUnknownSaint Registered User
    edited May 2009
    -I eat pretty well, avoiding fast food and soda almost entirely, I'm actually pretty decent in that department, considerably so given that I'm a college student.

    -Not depressed. I think.

    -I don't really exercise aside from walking to/from school multiple times daily, probably totaling close to a few miles a day from this. (Whatever exercise this does get me is probably the biggest reason I walk to campus, it actually helps quite a bit and I definitely notice the difference if I go a few months during winter/summer without the daily trek and then have to get back to it.)

    -Mattress isn't an issue, I have a very comfortable mattress I got about 6 months ago when I moved and it's helped.

    -I'm not sure I could do with more light. I sleep best when it's cold and dark, and while it isn't entirely dark (I intentionally keep two sides of my blinds uncovered) I just don't think light helps me at all. Half the time I end up sleeping at like 7am when it's morning light outside anyhow.

    -I try not to eat or drink too late, though I can be better about it. I eat fairly strangely too, multiple small meals throughout the day and sometimes it's unavoidable to eat a little something within a few hours of going to sleep.

    -I'll try the getting away from the computer thing, that could and probably is the biggest problem - I could be pretty tired and then have to do something online for 10 minutes before bed and I'll be wide awake after, it really fucks with me.

    Anything else that may help? And what kind of supplementary prescription sleep medication may work? If it could help as I make some major adjustments to my schedule I'd definitely consider it.

  • jclastjclast Registered User regular
    edited May 2009
    You can control when you get tired by controlling strictly when you wake up. Set your alarm for 6:00 AM (or whenever you need to wake up) and wake up at that time every day regardless of what time you went to bed. Eventually you _will_ be tired between 11:00 PM and 12:00 AM ensuring that you get 6 or 7 hours sleep every night.

    The first 2 weeks will be sucky, but after that you should be fine as it takes the average person around 2 weeks to adjust to a new sleep schedule.

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  • SimpsoniaSimpsonia Registered User regular
    edited May 2009
    If you lay down to sleep is it because you find your mind racing? Like do you keep thinking about just random stuff so that you can't get to sleep?

    One of the things that I use instead of counting sheep is to compose a story in my head while I'm trying to get to sleep. I play out an entire story including dialog and etc while I try and sleep, never fails. The key I've found is just to have the story so completely removed from your everyday life that you don't get sidetracked by everyday concerns.

  • ApexMirageApexMirage Registered User
    edited May 2009
    Welcome to the club.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dsps

    I'd love to be the one disappoint you when I don't fall down
  • NightDragonNightDragon Registered User regular
    edited May 2009
    -I'll try the getting away from the computer thing, that could and probably is the biggest problem - I could be pretty tired and then have to do something online for 10 minutes before bed and I'll be wide awake after, it really fucks with me.

    Anything else that may help? And what kind of supplementary prescription sleep medication may work? If it could help as I make some major adjustments to my schedule I'd definitely consider it.

    Your sleep schedule actually sounds pretty damn similar to mine, but I can usually fall asleep a bit faster nowadays. My main culprit is probably the computer - even when I'm tired, I'll refuse to go to bed until I cannot stay away any longer - otherwise I pull one of those "in bed for hours, trying to sleep" things. Unfortunately, sitting at the computer and pushing past that initial fatigue...will me another energy boost, and I can stay up for another 5+ hours just fine. So yes, definitely try getting away from the computer, if you can. If not, then lower the brightness on your monitor some. I've found that that helps me, sometimes.

    My favorite sleepin' time friend is a fan. I learned a few years ago that listening to a fan (some nice white noise) as I'm trying to fall asleep puts me to sleep in 30 minutes or less...as opposed to with no fan, which is usually when the multiple-hours-awake thing occurs. I have to sleep in complete darkness, like you, and I also have a difficult time sleeping if there's any repetitive noises around, or intermittent noise in an otherwise silent locale. It's a really inexpensive fix for me, and so I'd suggest you try it out.

    And, just because your situation sounds so similar to mine...I haven't really found any correlation personally between what time I eat and what time I fall asleep - and I mean, if you're awake at 5am, and haven't eaten anything since dinner...I really don't see the problem in having a snack. It's best to have multiple small meals in a day, anyway.

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  • ZombiemamboZombiemambo Registered User regular
    edited May 2009
    ApexMirage wrote: »

    Considering my optimum schedule is usually 4am-1pm I'd be able to easily say I have DSPS, but it's also one of those things (like ADD) that is just too quickly diagnosed, I think. I mean, if you're going to sleep at 4 in the morning, of course it's going to be hard to wake up at 8am.

    First things first: exercise can help a lot. After about a week of exercising, I was consistantly going to bed earlier and falling asleep in 5 minutes. To be honest, it takes me up to two hours to sleep at night now, even with exercise, but I have OCD and a mind that literally never stops. Also watch what you eat and drink: I hadn't noticed until recently that a single soda can keep me awake for another hour or so. I'd stop drinking anything with lots of sugar or any caffeine an hour or two before you go to bed.

    Next up: set a bed time. It's a lot easier to stabilize your sleeping schedule when you go to sleep at a specific time and not whenever you feel like going to bed.

    Never do anything in your bed but sleep. For whatever reason, reading, watching TV and playing games in your bed tells your brain that the bed is for other things, too (:winky:). Except for sex, only use your bed to sleep. After 5-10 minutes in bed I start to feel tired, even in the middle of the day.

    Stress can also keep you awake, so you should try to relax before you try to go to sleep.

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  • ToefooToefoo Los Angeles, CARegistered User regular
    edited May 2009
    I sometimes have trouble sleeping, and I found a very strange quirk that helps my sleep...I wash my bedding twice as much as I usually do. This means probably once a week. I don't know what it is, but the smell of fabric softener just really adds to my comfort and I sleep a lot easier. Not sure if it's a mental thing or what, but it works for me.

    You could also try picking up some valerian root at the grocery store and trying that, opposed to relying on things like Tylenol PM (ex-addict here!).

    PSN: Soultics
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  • KhavallKhavall Registered User regular
    edited May 2009
    How often do you get more than 8 hours of sleep?

    I was having a problem for a few months where I was getting 2 hours of sleep some days and then when I had a morning off would just sleep 'till I was rested. I would get to sleep just fine eventually by 6AM or so though couldn't get to sleep before them, and forced myself to wake up at 8AM on those days so that my schedule was the same each day.

    Then I started taking naps during the day as well 'cause I was just so exhausted after 3 nights at 2 hours apiece.

    I then saw a doctor about it, and she told me to stop getting more sleep when I had a free morning, but instead make sure I wake up at the same time regardless of if I need to or not. Basically when I was getting 14 hours of sleep in a night I was messing up my ability to fall asleep for a bit, because I was just getting too much sleep sometimes.

    So think about making sure that you don't sleep in when you can.

    Also, I tried tylenol PM... it worked great.. but I couldn't wake up. I finally stopped taking it and could wake up with no problem.

  • Jean Claude Van CalmJean Claude Van Calm 'sup? Awesome Possum.Registered User regular
    edited May 2009
    You sound exactly like me, it's been a real pain in the ass especially with the Army/school. It took almost a year of sleep studies and some other things with the VA (who overlooked it forever thinking it was a mental thing). Finally a doc mentioned it was the DSPS seen above and tried to give me some sleep meds for it which I took for a few nights and stopped because I hated it. There's lots of really good advice in here that might help, I hate to point ya to meds but you should really look into melatonin (safe all natural non habit forming etc.) which someone mentioned above, along with other healthy sleeping habits I got back on track in a week or so and never had to take the stuff again.

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  • PeregrineFalconPeregrineFalcon Registered User regular
    edited May 2009
    Khavall wrote: »
    I then saw a doctor about it, and she told me to stop getting more sleep when I had a free morning, but instead make sure I wake up at the same time regardless of if I need to or not.

    Limed for truth. It's Saturday morning, I have no need to be awake, but here I am.

    Plus I've found that getting up early makes me feel like less of a lazy bastard and get more shit done on my days off. :)

    Also note that the part about seeing a doctor is limed. Might want to consider it rather than trying to self-medicate yourself into a stupor.

    Looking for a DX:HR OnLive code for my kid brother.
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  • ZekZek Registered User regular
    edited May 2009
    Talk to a doctor.

  • Omnicron9999Omnicron9999 Registered User
    edited May 2009
    Melatonin was mentioned earlier, but not really given any credit.

    Its an herbal supplement, and has worked wonders for me and several other people I know. Its non habit forming, I mean seriously, all it really does it give you a bit of a nudge towards sleep, not knock you out.

    You can get it at any drug store, and its fairly cheap. Keep an eye on the dosage, from what I've read 1-5 mg tends to be what works best for most people, and higher dosages tend to be ineffective.

    See what works for you though, I've seen melatonin come in 1 mg, and as high as 10 mg tablets. Like I said though, less seems to be more with it.

  • wallabeeXwallabeeX Registered User
    edited May 2009
    Just agreeing with the above.

    I take melatonin on nights where I'm tossing and turning with no ill effects. Great supplement.

  • BEAST!BEAST! Adventurer Adventure!!!!!Registered User regular
    edited May 2009
    Melatonin was mentioned earlier, but not really given any credit.

    Its an herbal supplement, and has worked wonders for me and several other people I know. Its non habit forming, I mean seriously, all it really does it give you a bit of a nudge towards sleep, not knock you out.

    You can get it at any drug store, and its fairly cheap. Keep an eye on the dosage, from what I've read 1-5 mg tends to be what works best for most people, and higher dosages tend to be ineffective.

    See what works for you though, I've seen melatonin come in 1 mg, and as high as 10 mg tablets. Like I said though, less seems to be more with it.
    i hate taking melatonin...hate hate hate....i feel like i'm constantly waking up throughout the night because it gives me some really vivid dreams...i just don't end up feeling rested

    it does wonders at getting me to sleep though, but wow does it ever give me the craziest dreams

  • NightDragonNightDragon Registered User regular
    edited May 2009
    BEAST! wrote: »
    Melatonin was mentioned earlier, but not really given any credit.

    Its an herbal supplement, and has worked wonders for me and several other people I know. Its non habit forming, I mean seriously, all it really does it give you a bit of a nudge towards sleep, not knock you out.

    You can get it at any drug store, and its fairly cheap. Keep an eye on the dosage, from what I've read 1-5 mg tends to be what works best for most people, and higher dosages tend to be ineffective.

    See what works for you though, I've seen melatonin come in 1 mg, and as high as 10 mg tablets. Like I said though, less seems to be more with it.
    i hate taking melatonin...hate hate hate....i feel like i'm constantly waking up throughout the night because it gives me some really vivid dreams...i just don't end up feeling rested

    it does wonders at getting me to sleep though, but wow does it ever give me the craziest dreams

    That's weird. Melatonin is a chemical that's normally in us anyway - I didn't think it had any effects like that.

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  • BEAST!BEAST! Adventurer Adventure!!!!!Registered User regular
    edited May 2009
    BEAST! wrote: »
    Melatonin was mentioned earlier, but not really given any credit.

    Its an herbal supplement, and has worked wonders for me and several other people I know. Its non habit forming, I mean seriously, all it really does it give you a bit of a nudge towards sleep, not knock you out.

    You can get it at any drug store, and its fairly cheap. Keep an eye on the dosage, from what I've read 1-5 mg tends to be what works best for most people, and higher dosages tend to be ineffective.

    See what works for you though, I've seen melatonin come in 1 mg, and as high as 10 mg tablets. Like I said though, less seems to be more with it.
    i hate taking melatonin...hate hate hate....i feel like i'm constantly waking up throughout the night because it gives me some really vivid dreams...i just don't end up feeling rested

    it does wonders at getting me to sleep though, but wow does it ever give me the craziest dreams

    That's weird. Melatonin is a chemical that's normally in us anyway - I didn't think it had any effects like that.
    everyone that i know who has taken it have said the same thing, very vivid dreams

    i'm not sure what about it does this, if we're not used to getting to that sleep state (i almost never remember dreaming otherwise), if we're taking too much or too little (1-3mg is all i've taken and they seem to do the same thing)...it's a pretty common thing from a quick search on the internet though

    i would suggest trying it if i were him, but just thought i would warn him..i still take i take it on occasion myself, i just know what it will do during the night and live with it...some sleep is better than no sleep, haha

  • eternalbleternalbl Registered User
    edited May 2009
    I used to have the same problem somewhat. My sleep schedule is naturally like 5am to noon.

    I've had a dimmer switch on the lights in my living room for probably a year or so now and since then, having the lights really dim makes me inexplicably tired at about 11 or 12 now. I'll start passing out on the couch in the middle of whatever I'm doing.

    Spoiler:
  • matisyahumatisyahu Registered User
    edited May 2009
    Definitely definitely definitely try to focus on avoiding the computer around bedtime. You can take all the melatonin you want but if you don't break the just-before-bed computer habit, you're probably going to keep having this problem.

    i dont even like matisyahu and i dont know why i picked this username
  • CorvusCorvus Caw? VancouverRegistered User regular
    edited May 2009
    BEAST! wrote: »
    BEAST! wrote: »
    Melatonin was mentioned earlier, but not really given any credit.

    Its an herbal supplement, and has worked wonders for me and several other people I know. Its non habit forming, I mean seriously, all it really does it give you a bit of a nudge towards sleep, not knock you out.

    You can get it at any drug store, and its fairly cheap. Keep an eye on the dosage, from what I've read 1-5 mg tends to be what works best for most people, and higher dosages tend to be ineffective.

    See what works for you though, I've seen melatonin come in 1 mg, and as high as 10 mg tablets. Like I said though, less seems to be more with it.
    i hate taking melatonin...hate hate hate....i feel like i'm constantly waking up throughout the night because it gives me some really vivid dreams...i just don't end up feeling rested

    it does wonders at getting me to sleep though, but wow does it ever give me the craziest dreams

    That's weird. Melatonin is a chemical that's normally in us anyway - I didn't think it had any effects like that.
    everyone that i know who has taken it have said the same thing, very vivid dreams

    i'm not sure what about it does this, if we're not used to getting to that sleep state (i almost never remember dreaming otherwise), if we're taking too much or too little (1-3mg is all i've taken and they seem to do the same thing)...it's a pretty common thing from a quick search on the internet though

    i would suggest trying it if i were him, but just thought i would warn him..i still take i take it on occasion myself, i just know what it will do during the night and live with it...some sleep is better than no sleep, haha

    I'm not advocating the OP take it, but I've never had vivid dreams with Melatonin when I've taken it.

  • EdgieEdgie TampaRegistered User regular
    edited May 2009
    I've talked to a few friends who have tried melatonin supplements, and some of them stated that it causes them very vivid dreams, sometimes nightmares, too.

  • ShogunShogun Hair long; money long; me and broke wizards we don't get along Registered User regular
    edited May 2009
    I've taken Melatonin and while it helped for the first few days after that it was horrible nightmares.

  • UnknownSaintUnknownSaint Registered User
    edited May 2009
    Due to the heavily conflicting responses, I think I'll lay off on trying melatonin for the time being.

    Biggest things I'll do are...

    -Ensure that the computer is off at least an hour or two before attempting to sleep, so probably around 10, so I can be in bed around midnight (I'm thinking of maybe relying on some tylenol PM for the first few days and then just wake up)

    -Be up no later than 10am on the days where I don't have to be in class at 9am

    -No coffee after 3pm or so

    -Try to keep my last decent sized meal as early as possible, hopefully no later than 9pm

    I even harangued a good friend of mine that's always up in the mornings to call me daily to make sure I'm up when I should be. D:

    I appreciate the help guys and gals, I really really need this. I'll maybe update on some progress in a bit, perhaps this could be helpful to other people that seem to be in a similar boat.

  • ruzkinruzkin Registered User regular
    edited May 2009
    Good stuff. Keep us posted on how you go!

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  • SatanIsMyMotorSatanIsMyMotor Registered User regular
    edited May 2009
    I think that before you delve into the world of drugs you should take some natural recourses first.

    Having said that, I'm a diagnosed insomniac - been to sleep clinics and everything. I work your average 9-5 job but I've established a system that helps me. First off I try to get as much exercise as possible - specifically I've started doing yoga and it helps IMMENSELY.

    Occassionally I do need to medicate myself. Typically I try to relegate taking medications to the days where I'm adjusting to "going back on schedule" (ie: Sunday evening and monday evening) from there I find the natural course of the work week keeps me fairly normalized.

    In summary - exercise but if you need to medicate make sure you're doing it strategically.

    steam_sig.png
  • GlaealGlaeal Registered User
    edited May 2009
    -Be up no later than 10am on the days where I don't have to be in class at 9am

    Try getting up at the same time every day, regardless of whether you have class or not. Getting your body into a rhythm is an important part of improving your sleep quality.

    Also, Than recommended something a while ago in a similar thread that was a really important part of fixing my sleep problems: the bed is for sleeping, not reading or watching TV. Don't lie in bed doing anything waiting to get tired enough to fall asleep. Train yourself to finish whatever you want to do before lying down, and then get in bed and immediately go to sleep.

    Qingu wrote: »
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  • EchoEcho staring is caring Super Moderator, Moderator mod
    edited May 2009
    Never do anything in your bed but sleep. For whatever reason, reading, watching TV and playing games in your bed tells your brain that the bed is for other things, too (:winky:). Except for sex, only use your bed to sleep. After 5-10 minutes in bed I start to feel tired, even in the middle of the day.

    I work that way too. I had to start reading books in the couch instead, if I kept them next to the bed I'd never get them read since I can manage maybe five pages before I feel sleepy. :P

    I have an autistic diagnose, and a sleeping problem I attribute to this: I can't stop thinking. I think too much. I can't not think about something.

    The sensory deprivation of silence and no light just amplifies it; there's not much left to notice but the stuff going on inside my head. I used to have really big problems falling asleep due to that.

    I can't really explain how or why, but eventually I managed to change that into letting go of the active part of the thinking and just let my mind go nuts without trying to direct the thoughts, and then that gradually slides into a sleeping state.

  • HypatiaHypatia Registered User regular
    edited May 2009
    You might also want to try eating something as soon as you wake up. I was reading some article that said that it helps to reset your circadian rhythms if you don't for 12 hours (8 of which would be sleeping) and then eat immediately when you wake up.

  • ilmmadilmmad Registered User
    edited May 2009
    It's probably been said, but do not let yourself inch forward. For me it's been about personal discipline. Last year, my schedule was 10:30pm-6:30am, which worked out well. I'd even stay up once or twice until 11 playing Halo, but regardless I got sleep. Then I had a massive history paper to write which kept me up until 12 or 1pm on a few nights. That threw me off my normally awesome schedule. Working back down to a reasonable sleep time requires multiple nights; resetting in one go doesn't work too well.

    Ilmmad.gif
  • RetoxRetox Registered User regular
    edited May 2009
    This has probably already been mentioned several times but exercise and a routine are two things that work for me. It might seem a little silly at first to impose a bedtime on yourself, but you get used to going to sleep at the same time almost every day (weekends are the exemption) and these days I turn off the light and am aslep in 5 minutes. But I suppose it may not work that well for everyone.

  • Blake TBlake T Registered User regular
    edited May 2009
    The best piece of advice I have is discipline.

    Don't aim to be awake at 10. For you off days and 9 for your on once you have a good sleeping pattern maybe but for now keep it as regimented as possible.

    Set your alarm at 9, put your alarm on the other side of the room and get up to turn it off.

    Do not press snooze go and lie on the bed for five more minutes, go and have a shower and eat breakfast. This will keep your body busy enough to get itself into, I'm awake mode, even if you are tired.

    People mistake me for a morning person, I am not, I hate them, I would pay someone good money for the ability to sleep past 10 on a weekend, but my body is so hard wired to get up in the morning I can't get back to sleep.

  • DHS OdiumDHS Odium Registered User regular
    edited May 2009
    A lot of good advice here. If you wanted to take something, but not melatonin, try valerian root.

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