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[Rumour on]: New PSP without UMD drive to be announced this E3, coming this fall

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  • EvanderEvander Registered User regular
    edited May 2009
    -Loki- wrote: »
    Evander wrote: »
    -Loki- wrote: »
    Evander wrote: »
    elkatas wrote: »
    Vegan wrote: »
    Exactly, which is why I'm confused as to why they think they need another model out. They even managed to make a seemingly unhackable version, so that worry was past.

    Sometimes it is better start from completely clean slate. With proper marketing and distancing from earlier models, Sony might have solid hit here. PSP has unfortunate fame as a console that "doesn't have any games". If rumours about having 100 PSP titles available online are true, new users will be amazed how many excellent quality games his new console has right from the start. This alone will generate lot of goodwill. The big question is that will Sony succeed marketing new model?


    If they want to start from a clean slate, then they should make this the PSP2, or better yet, make it an entirely new name all together.

    Well, if it has a touch screen as early rumours suggested, it could very well be marketted as a PSP 2 - that alone would make it very different ot the PSP. Just because it doesn't have a '2' next to the name, doesn't mean they can't market it as a new console with backwards compatibility. I mean, the Wii isn't called a Gamecube 2.

    The first time this was rumored, it was called teh PSP 4000, this time around it is being called the PSP Go!, and the rumors are specific to state that the controls are remaining the same, and the power of the actual device will also stay the same.

    If we're going to assume the rumor to be true, for the purpose of discussion, then we need to take all of it, or at least be specific about which parts we are taking and which we aren't. We can't really all be on the same page here otherwise.

    Adding a touch screen doesn't change the controls to be detrimental to old games at all - it simply adds a new control method. The old single analog, d-pad, face buttons, 2 shoulder buttons scheme is still there. And a touch screen. So it's not like it can't be done. I've haven't read anything about anyone refuting a touch screen - everyone is going off a single rumor, not all of the rumors, so until official announcements are made, a touch screen being part of the new PSP is as legitimate as anything else being discussed.

    And if there is a touch screen, marketting it as a new PSP with backwards compatibility is quite possible, just like Nintendo did with the Wii. Though that assumes that Sonys marketing department has learned from their mistakes.

    I'm not talking about the touch screen, I'm talking about it being a new system, instead of just another PSP revision.

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  • slash000slash000 Registered User regular
    edited May 2009
    I haven't been reading the discussion, but I will say that it's true that Sony was trying to turn the "Universal Media Disc" into something besides just a game machine's medium. That's why they started pushing for movies to come out on the thing. They were hoping it'd take off. They were hoping it'd become a great new portable media platform,and started by investing a lot into movies and of course games for it. But that failed.

  • EvanderEvander Registered User regular
    edited May 2009
    slash000 wrote: »
    I haven't been reading the discussion, but I will say that it's true that Sony was trying to turn the "Universal Media Disc" into something besides just a game machine's medium. That's why they started pushing for movies to come out on the thing. They were hoping it'd take off. They were hoping it'd become a great new portable media platform,and started by investing a lot into movies and of course games for it. But that failed.

    Oh, I'm not disputing any of that.

    I'm just saying that even as a formet used only in one device, there is plenty of precedent for that in the gaming world.

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  • -Loki--Loki- Don't pee in my mouth and tell me it's raining. Registered User regular
    edited May 2009
    I liked the idea of UMD movies - I have 4 of them and carried 2 of them with 2 games. But they were too damn expensive - as much as a DVD. They needed to sell them a lot cheaper.

  • slash000slash000 Registered User regular
    edited May 2009
    I think most people's beef is that they'd rather just take the movies they already bought and watch it on them. Thus rip -> convert -> transfer to memory stick. Or, alternatively (since 'most people' probably can't rip->convert), not pay more than $5 for them, since their application is extremely limited (only watch them on PSP?), and people would rather not pay so much for something they can only watch in limited instances. $5 is reaosnable because that's the point it becomes a mere convenience charge. Hell if they could sell Movies via PSN for download to PSP at $5 a pop, I think it'd be about a thousand times better than straight selling on UMD.


    But whatever the case, the big hurdle is price, of course. People just don't want to pay that much for a PSP-only movie when they could instead get a DVD. Or something.

  • RakaiRakai Registered User regular
    edited May 2009
    The UMD is the only thing that would work for the PSP. Solid State would be far too expensive and storage space was too much at a premium to keep the device affordable while supporting a digital distribution model. Pushing movies onto it was a way of increasing functionality of the device to create a better feature list to make an easier sell. Royalties from movies don't make up that much money which is why Sony wasn't too soured by the lack of it taking off.

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]XBL: Rakayn | PS3: Rakayn | Steam ID
  • NewblarNewblar Registered User regular
    edited May 2009
    Evander wrote: »

    The fact is, the economics of it all back up the fact that the video game market is dependant on used sales, just like the car market. Yes, the market COULD exist without used sales, but it would be extremely scaled back. The extra money going towards used games right now would leave the market entirely, and go elsewhere, not go directly to the pockets of developers as some people like to pretend.

    I would agree with the concept that without a used game market that the money spent on those games would not all go directly to the pockets of developers, but basic economics does not support something as drastic as your assumption that none of the money currently spent on used games would switch to new game purchases if the used game market disappeared.

    Can you please provide some kind of link or something with data veryfiying your claim that it is a fact that economically the video game market is dependent on used games. I have never seen anything that even comes close to proving a fact on that, only some very biased, statiscally useless information that alluded to the slight possibility of it. I'm not trying to cut you up or anything, I'm actually really interested in seeing the type of information that would support your conclusions so I can be better informed.

    As far as the topic goes the rumored revision is something that might be the tipping point that makes me purchase a PSP if its true. I hate trying to hunt games down, switching disks, and the lesser drain to the battery seems a pretty big advantage to me. I understand many PSP owners already recieve some of the advantages of the rumored revision through modding but thats not my thing. Even though this is something I personally would like my first impression is that it may not be the best move for Sony and could be a huge loss of money or even cause some serious negative backlash from current PSP owners depending on how it is done. It could however be more of a test that could provide some valuable information on whether it is viable or not to have the next generation of PSP be completely DD.

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  • -Loki--Loki- Don't pee in my mouth and tell me it's raining. Registered User regular
    edited May 2009
    Rakai wrote: »
    The UMD is the only thing that would work for the PSP. Solid State would be far too expensive and storage space was too much at a premium to keep the device affordable while supporting a digital distribution model.

    Depends if you are trying to store absolutely everything on it at the same time. With 4gb, I can store a couple of movies, a decent amount of tracks (about 150, and I won't say MP3, because I use my PS3 to rip them to ACC, so size wise they are pretty small) and a full game. At 8gb (which rumour says will be the internal storage of the cheapest SKU), make that a couple more games and/or movies. Back up everything else to a PC/PS3 and transfer it to the PSP when you want it - say, before you leave the house. It only takes a couple of minutes.

  • RakaiRakai Registered User regular
    edited May 2009
    I was speaking primarily from a launch standpoint. I'm simply contending that Sony used the UMD because it was the only thing they could use for the gaming device that they wanted at the time. General media use was just a secondary option used to push features rather than an extra source of revenue.

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]XBL: Rakayn | PS3: Rakayn | Steam ID
  • EvanderEvander Registered User regular
    edited May 2009
    Newblar wrote: »
    Evander wrote: »

    The fact is, the economics of it all back up the fact that the video game market is dependant on used sales, just like the car market. Yes, the market COULD exist without used sales, but it would be extremely scaled back. The extra money going towards used games right now would leave the market entirely, and go elsewhere, not go directly to the pockets of developers as some people like to pretend.

    I would agree with the concept that without a used game market that the money spent on those games would not all go directly to the pockets of developers, but basic economics does not support something as drastic as your assumption that none of the money currently spent on used games would switch to new game purchases if the used game market disappeared.

    Can you please provide some kind of link or something with data veryfiying your claim that it is a fact that economically the video game market is dependent on used games. I have never seen anything that even comes close to proving a fact on that, only some very biased, statiscally useless information that alluded to the slight possibility of it. I'm not trying to cut you up or anything, I'm actually really interested in seeing the type of information that would support your conclusions so I can be better informed.

    I'm exagerating when I say none. There would be offsets, though, and honestly, I predict a net-negative for the money going to developer pockets.

    I don't have any specific data, all I can give you is analysis based on commonly available data and my own observation. The fact is (as I've said many times before) physical copies of games are worth more to consumers, because they carry a salvage value. A guy can walk out of a store with a brand new title, and feel like he really only spent $40, because he knows that he can get $20 back for it when he's done with it in three weeks. it adds up too because in three weeks, when he trades that game in, and buys another, he's going to feel like that $20 of store credit wasn't coming out of his pocket, meaning he'll walk away feeling like he bought a $60 game for one third of the price. (60 - 20 store credit = 40. 40 - 20 future trade in = 20.)

    Additionally, some portion of used sales actually DO go in to devewloper pockets, because if a game sells out used, then new copies are sometimes ordered to re-plentish, if it is popular. A lot of folks who attempt to analyze the industry tend to ignore the fact that when you buy a new game, no money is actually going to the develoers, but rather, money ges to the developers IF, as a result of your purchase, more new copies of said game are ordered from the distributor. In fact, the BEST way to support a developer is to pre-order their games, because there is an almost 1:1 correlation between pre-orders and additional copies ordered, but interestingly enough, the same folks who decry used games as hurting the industry are often seen bitching about how much they hate pre-orders.

    Also, the used game market serves to deal with the very severe pricing issues in the game market. Teh fact is, there is NO good reason for almost every game to come out at $60. It's absurd that they would all be priced at the same spot to begin with, but the fact that they are up so high actually serves to deterr many purchases, especially on the less-hyped titles. Used games allow people to experience these titles at a price they can afford, and while this may not affect the developers directly, it allows the market to be larger, because there are plenty of people whom, if faced with ONLY $60 games as options, would choose to simply get another hobby. We have to rememebr that when looked at the market economically it is NOT just about maximizing profits, it is about maximizing overall utility, and finding the proper equillibrium point. Consumers deserve to have just as much consideration at the developers.

    Ultimately, though, it comes down to the fact that A) trade-ins of old games often finance purchases of new copies (and indeed, gamestop incentivizes this by giving extra credit on trades towards pre-order or purchase of certain "hot" new titles) and B) used game prices allow consumers to remain in the market who otherwise would not be able to afford to be gamers.

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  • EvanderEvander Registered User regular
    edited May 2009
    -Loki- wrote: »
    Back up everything else to a PC/PS3 and transfer it to the PSP when you want it - say, before you leave the house. It only takes a couple of minutes.

    That's more of a hassle that you are making it out to be, depending on the quality of the hardware that a person owns.

    It also means that If I go on vacation and get bored of the games I have, I can't easily drop by the store and pick up a new one. (before you say wifi, consider that A) wifi isn't always accessable, and B) even if it is, it take forever to download a game, versus just popping a new disc in.)

    There's no significant benefit to consumer for having download-only games. The current sysatme allows you to have either. Taking away an option is incredibly consumer-negative.

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  • Unco-ordinatedUnco-ordinated Registered User regular
    edited May 2009
    Evander wrote: »
    The PSP being the only system to have a UMD drive is an absurb point, consisidering how many different systems have used proprietary media types over the years. The DS isn't successful because of how every other device in your life has a DS cartridge slot.
    The DS actually uses a slightly modified SD Card, so it's not really a proprietary media type.

    As for the rest, I had written out responses but then I realised how pointless it is. You're clearly never going to change your mind, I'm never going to agree with you, so there's no real point continuing.

    Steam ID - LiquidSolid170 | PSN ID - LiquidSolid
  • EvanderEvander Registered User regular
    edited May 2009
    The DS actually uses a slightly modified SD Card, so it's not really a proprietary media type.

    Every time I think that you couldn't possibly be more dense you surprise me.

    The TECHNOLOGY behind the DS slot is based on Secure Digital, yes, but the HARDWARE is still proprietary.

    You don't have to pay a new R&D cost everytime you manufacture a unit, so it's all completely irrelevant.



    edit: or wait, if I follow your own failed logic, and point out that UMDs use red lasers just like DVDs and CDs, will that completely change your world-view?

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  • -Loki--Loki- Don't pee in my mouth and tell me it's raining. Registered User regular
    edited May 2009
    Evander wrote: »
    That's more of a hassle that you are making it out to be, depending on the quality of the hardware that a person owns.

    Not really. I've done it both with PC and PS3. Before I owned a PS3, I stored everything on my PC. Considering the PSP has the ability to go straight into USB mode when you put a USB cable into it, and if you organise your media on your PC, you should be able to relatively quickly transfer stuff. Don't bother with media manager crap, just plug the PSP into the PC, open explorer, copy what you want, paste into the correct folder on the PSP.

    On a PS3, you just select what you want, hit triangle, hit copy, select the PSP and the PS3 does it all for you. It's not hard, and the PC only has slightly more of a hassle of having to hit Ctrl-C, go to the PSP, Ctrl-V.
    There is the case of if someone doesn't own either a PC or a PS3, but Sony should be pretty safe in that regard. PC penetration is ridiculous these days.
    Evander wrote: »
    It also means that If I go on vacation and get bored of the games I have, I can't easily drop by the store and pick up a new one. (before you say wifi, consider that A) wifi isn't always accessable, and B) even if it is, it take forever to download a game, versus just popping a new disc in.)

    that's assuming that Sony don't have something in mind for getting games quickly onto a PSP, like a kiosk service. We don't know enough yet to make these sort of calls. And anyway, if I was on Vacation, I wouldn't be playing my PSP. I'd be doing what I went on vacation for. Travel time, well, 8gb+ is plenty of storage for some games to play.
    Evander wrote: »
    There's no significant benefit to consumer for having download-only games. The current sysatme allows you to have either. Taking away an option is incredibly consumer-negative.

    Faster game loads, better battery life without having to hack your PSP. Something not everyone wants to do. it's taking away an option, yes, but again, we don't know enough about what Sony is planning, so arguing about the lack of UMD's is pointless until Sony unveils everything it's planning to do.
    Rakai wrote: »
    I was speaking primarily from a launch standpoint. I'm simply contending that Sony used the UMD because it was the only thing they could use for the gaming device that they wanted at the time. General media use was just a secondary option used to push features rather than an extra source of revenue.

    Yeah, sorry, misread your post.

  • EvanderEvander Registered User regular
    edited May 2009
    -Loki- wrote: »
    Faster game loads, better battery life without having to hack your PSP.

    I haven't had issues with either of those since getting a PSP 2000 and an extended battery (first party)

    Even so, those benefits do not come from REMOVING the UMD drive, they come from playing downloaded games instead of disc based games. A feature which is available with ALL models of PSP already.

    So no, no benefit to consumers at all.
    -Loki- wrote: »
    we don't know enough about what Sony is planning, so arguing about the lack of UMD's is pointless until Sony unveils everything it's planning to do.

    Oh, sorry. I forgot that we aren't supposed to discuss things until after we already know every single detail..

    Let's go ahead and shut down the entire internet then.

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  • -Loki--Loki- Don't pee in my mouth and tell me it's raining. Registered User regular
    edited May 2009
    I'm not saying discussion is bad. I'm saying assuming something with no information is bad. There's a difference. For instance, if I say I don't think downloadable games will work because not enough people will use a service, there's information to go on, and I'm discussing the rumor. If I say I don't think downloadable games will work because Sony have no way to getting games to people outside of wifi PSP downloads and PC/PS3 downloads, that's assuming with no information to go on, because no one, rumor or Sony, have yet said anything on the subject. But hey, it's worthless arguing with an economist. I'll avoid this thread until E3 brings some news.

  • Unco-ordinatedUnco-ordinated Registered User regular
    edited May 2009
    Evander wrote: »
    The DS actually uses a slightly modified SD Card, so it's not really a proprietary media type.

    Every time I think that you couldn't possibly be more dense you surprise me.

    The TECHNOLOGY behind the DS slot is based on Secure Digital, yes, but the HARDWARE is still proprietary.

    You don't have to pay a new R&D cost everytime you manufacture a unit, so it's all completely irrelevant.



    edit: or wait, if I follow your own failed logic, and point out that UMDs use red lasers just like DVDs and CDs, will that completely change your world-view?

    :|Why do you think I said 'not really'? In that the technology behind it's technically proprietary but that it wasn't created from scratch. And it's only irrelevant if you've already forgotten what I was talking about beforehand, the extra expense of the actual UMD drive. Compared to that, creating a port for flash cards is pretty damn cheap.

    But whatever, continue to ignore whatever you don't agree with and be a complete dick to anyone that disagrees with you.

    Steam ID - LiquidSolid170 | PSN ID - LiquidSolid
  • EvanderEvander Registered User regular
    edited May 2009
    Evander wrote: »
    The DS actually uses a slightly modified SD Card, so it's not really a proprietary media type.

    Every time I think that you couldn't possibly be more dense you surprise me.

    The TECHNOLOGY behind the DS slot is based on Secure Digital, yes, but the HARDWARE is still proprietary.

    You don't have to pay a new R&D cost everytime you manufacture a unit, so it's all completely irrelevant.



    edit: or wait, if I follow your own failed logic, and point out that UMDs use red lasers just like DVDs and CDs, will that completely change your world-view?

    :|Why do you think I said 'not really'? In that the technology behind it's technically proprietary but that it wasn't created from scratch. And it's only irrelevant if you've already forgotten what I was talking about beforehand, the extra expense of the actual UMD drive. Compared to that, creating a port for flash cards is pretty damn cheap.

    But whatever, continue to ignore whatever you don't agree with and be a complete dick to anyone that disagrees with you.

    How does the fact that the R&D costs are lowered have ANY affect on the cost of each unit?

    And while you may assert that it's cheaper to create a reader for solid state, you're completely ignoring that the individual solid-state media is more expensive than individual discs, which if you are sucessful with software, leads to a tipping in the other direction.


    edit: and you whole "not-really_ thing is a load of BS. Proprietary either is or isn't. I mean, all of these different types of media use ones and zeroes. Does THAT make them somehow "not really" proprietary in your mind?

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  • VeganVegan Registered User regular
    edited May 2009
    subedii wrote: »
    Vegan wrote: »
    elkatas wrote: »
    The big question is that will Sony succeed marketing new model?

    Will Sony succeed in conveying to parents that they can no longer drop little Timmy off at Gamestop while they go shopping elsewhere, because there won't actually be any physical games to purchase?


    I'm not sure I understand what you're getting at. Sony have to address irresponsible parenting?

    In any case, odds are that there'll still be boxes on shelves. Maybe they'll just contain memory sticks instead, or even just a code. There's also likely to be the ability to purchase vouchers for cash so that kids can buy their games online. For all we know they could be planning a kiosk system like Elliotw2 said, maybe bring your memory to the store, buy your game and download it from a terminal.

    I actually think it would be a good idea to sell their games on the flash memory sticks. It'd cost more than a direct download, but would allow everyone access. It would also ease them into the idea that the content doesn't have to be tied to the disc itself.

    Right now, we don't really know much about how this is going to work, assuming the rumours are true to begin with. I like the idea of a disc-less PSP, the UMD was useless, took up space and drains the battery.

    The point was that a lot of the videogame industry relies on kids getting dropped off at Gamestop for hours on end with more money than they deserve. If there isn't a system in place that caters to that, Sony just made a device that invites fewer sales than even the original PSP.

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  • KyouguKyougu Registered User regular
    edited May 2009
    Take this with a grain of salt but in the last Listen Up Shane B. seemed to hint pretty strongly about Sony setting up ways to transfer UMD's into the new PSP.

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  • EvanderEvander Registered User regular
    edited May 2009
    Vegan wrote: »
    subedii wrote: »
    Vegan wrote: »
    elkatas wrote: »
    The big question is that will Sony succeed marketing new model?

    Will Sony succeed in conveying to parents that they can no longer drop little Timmy off at Gamestop while they go shopping elsewhere, because there won't actually be any physical games to purchase?


    I'm not sure I understand what you're getting at. Sony have to address irresponsible parenting?

    In any case, odds are that there'll still be boxes on shelves. Maybe they'll just contain memory sticks instead, or even just a code. There's also likely to be the ability to purchase vouchers for cash so that kids can buy their games online. For all we know they could be planning a kiosk system like Elliotw2 said, maybe bring your memory to the store, buy your game and download it from a terminal.

    I actually think it would be a good idea to sell their games on the flash memory sticks. It'd cost more than a direct download, but would allow everyone access. It would also ease them into the idea that the content doesn't have to be tied to the disc itself.

    Right now, we don't really know much about how this is going to work, assuming the rumours are true to begin with. I like the idea of a disc-less PSP, the UMD was useless, took up space and drains the battery.

    The point was that a lot of the videogame industry relies on kids getting dropped off at Gamestop for hours on end with more money than they deserve. If there isn't a system in place that caters to that, Sony just made a device that invites fewer sales than even the original PSP.

    To be fair, the kids that get dropped off in the store actually result in very few sales. It's just an attempt by parents to get a free baby-sitter.

    This WILL lose Sony the sales of the kids who head over to the store after school or on weekends, though, which are not insignificant. There's also a percentage of grown adults who don't have credit cards, or refuse to purchase things online.



    Ultimately,. the whole point is that what they are doing is shrinking their market, without doing anythng to grow it (the current PSP models all have the same DigiDistro capabilities that these new units are rumored to have)

    It is a consumer negative attempt to force consumers to give money directly to Sony, because they don't want a midle-man taking a cut anymore. The problem is that cutting out that middle-man ALSO cuts out certain value-adds for the consumer.

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  • NailbunnyPDNailbunnyPD Registered User regular
    edited May 2009
    -Loki- wrote: »
    But hey, it's worthless arguing with an economist. I'll avoid this thread until E3 brings some news.

    :^:

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  • maximumzeromaximumzero I...wait, what? New Orleans, LARegistered User regular
    edited May 2009
    slash000 wrote: »
    I think most people's beef is that they'd rather just take the movies they already bought and watch it on them. Thus rip -> convert -> transfer to memory stick. Or, alternatively (since 'most people' probably can't rip->convert), not pay more than $5 for them, since their application is extremely limited (only watch them on PSP?), and people would rather not pay so much for something they can only watch in limited instances. $5 is reaosnable because that's the point it becomes a mere convenience charge. Hell if they could sell Movies via PSN for download to PSP at $5 a pop, I think it'd be about a thousand times better than straight selling on UMD.


    But whatever the case, the big hurdle is price, of course. People just don't want to pay that much for a PSP-only movie when they could instead get a DVD. Or something.

    Has Sony ever free'd up the PSP's restrictions on playing back video? I know back in 3.30 they finally allowed full-resolution video, but for fuck's sake it's still difficult to get a video to play on the damn thing. It's so finicky.

    Of course I have an iPod Touch which plays whatever I throw at it so it's a non-issue on my end, but still.

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