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Obama asked not to lay a wreath on the Confederate Veterans memorial.
Posts
Lee resigned before Virginia even seceded and gave a middle state answer on secession. He knew secession would result in war and didn't want that but he still supported it because ultimately he shared the Confederate philosophy.
Lee supported Andrew Johnson's pro-Confederate plan but not the Republican plan that included equal rights for the freedmen. He wanted things to go back the way they were, even endorsing a candidate against Grant by signing a letter that said "The idea that the Southern people are hostile to the negroes and would oppress them, if it were in their power to do so, is entirely unfounded. They have grown up in our midst, and we have been accustomed from childhood to look upon them with kindness" and expressing that he was "opposed to any system of laws that would place the political power of the country in the hands of the negro race. But this opposition springs from no feeling of enmity, but from a deep-seated conviction that, at present, the negroes have neither the intelligence nor the other qualifications which are necessary to make them safe depositories of political power." He was of the Southern aristocracy and was covering his own ass, not only out of self-interest but self-preservation as he was not pardoned and could have been prosecuted for treason and oath-breaking. In the year of his death, only 5 years after the War he said if he knew what was coming he would never have surrendered.
He was not popular in the North, as common sense should tell you.
So just to be clear, despite the fact that the Confederate soldiers were fighting against the United States you believe they should be honored equally with those who fought for the United States by the President of the United States on the day set aside to honor those who gave their lives in service of the United States.
QEDMF xbl: PantsB G+
Uh, no. He fought to support his home state. He was a career military man. He denounced the secession as a "revolution".
He willfully took command of Confederate troops to support his state.
You're at the point of just spouting off bullshit now.
That's because the Republican plan would have stripped the rights of every ex Confederate in the country.
Of course he wouldn't support that.
Most politicians had this point of view. Northern or Southern.
His quote of "dying with sword in hand" was due to seeing Federal troops control the Southern way of life post Civil War. It wasn't out of fear that he'd be tried for Treason.
No American willing to go to war to die for his home should be forgotten, regardless of the conflict.
I don't see much difference between asshole politicians getting the working class killed in either instance.
Yeah.
Fuck those guys.
Remember, in 1866 States were more closely tied to identity than the entire country. I think the idea that there are men willing and able to defend their homeland is something to be proud of.
From the Arlington cemetary website:
The difference is that the Vietnam War was retarded. The Civil War was outright evil.
Their deaths weren't "a means to an end to preserve our union." There isn't a default price in blood the union demands from it's people to continue existing. If they had it their way, in fact, the union would have ceased to exist. Implying that they died as part of some pre-ordained plan to preserve the union is the worst kind of revisionism.
As to the victims of slavery, the native americans and interned japanese, we are honoring them as a means of paying partial penance for the massive crime the united states committed against them. Which is worthwhile, and not at all analogous to a discussion of the civil war.
my unofficial autobio will be accompanied with tips on how to smile
cause I've found that when they don't see you frown, they never know that you're a threat
and they don't sweat you when you came around
You going to quote the inscription on the other side of the monument, or just continue being silly?
my unofficial autobio will be accompanied with tips on how to smile
cause I've found that when they don't see you frown, they never know that you're a threat
and they don't sweat you when you came around
It's a goddamn wreath, that's it. More than a few of those who fought had families on the other side, so yeah while the South was a real dumbass attempt to keep a shitty institution alive those retards that joined it were still our retards by blood. So they get a little remembrance and we also remember through discussion how wrong they were.
And no the North wasn't perfect, but neither is any country but if you were to ask a slave whether he'd rather be an honest to goodness slave or part of the truck system, I'm betting he'd choose the latter.
Equality is a process, and sometimes it can be slow as fuck but when you have a chance to gain that inch, that one single atom of difference between slave and free, it makes all the difference in the world.
War is evil, regardless. People die horribly. Dropping Napalm and Agent Orange in Vietnam is just as horrible as the atrocities during the Civil War.
You referring to "To our dead heroes"?
my unofficial autobio will be accompanied with tips on how to smile
cause I've found that when they don't see you frown, they never know that you're a threat
and they don't sweat you when you came around
But you know what war isn't? Promoting slavery. The Vietnam War was a dumb blunder is which many people died, but which was started on idealistic grounds. The civil war was fought so that people could get rich off the blood of others.
I'll save him the trouble
"Victrix Causa Diis Placuit Sed Victa Caton."
Translation
"The victorious cause was pleasing to the Gods, but the lost cause to Cato."
So yeah, fuck those guys.
QEDMF xbl: PantsB G+
So what the hell does that quote mean?
The implication is that the south fought for the great lost cause of freedom against tyranny, with the north as the imperial aggressor. This is particularly ironic given the slavery issue.
my unofficial autobio will be accompanied with tips on how to smile
cause I've found that when they don't see you frown, they never know that you're a threat
and they don't sweat you when you came around
Except he clearly did bear arms against the Union and did support secession as the quoted portion you left out made clear. You're also quoting from "A Soldier's Reminiscences in Peace and War," from an anecdote of someone who didn't know Lee well in a book written in the 1880s, likely apocryphal I quoted from his own hand.
"Most" politicians were for the 14th Amendment. Its bullshit revisionist that the North and South were equally racist. Indeed, there's little doubt that Republicans wanted blacks to vote if only because it was a sure voting block.
And yes Lee didn't like that blacks were able to vote and hold office and thus the great conciliatory leader who lived less than a half dozen years after the war managed to declare he wished he had never surrendered and that there should be no consequences between smoothing everything over (what did he do again?).
QEDMF xbl: PantsB G+
But if the victorious cause was pleasing to the Gods...er God...
Huh.
stop it with this stupid shit.
the confederacy did not fight against the united states because it was still a part of the united states. you do not lose your citizenship because you fought one one side of the civil war or the other. you don't lose your citizenship by signing a piece of paper that says "i am now a citizen of the confederacy". you don't lose your citizenship by commiting high treason and never being charged for it. they were still american citizens up and until that citizenship is revoked.
the civil war was the north vs the south NOT the united states vs foreign invaders of united states soil.
if you want to not honor them, thats fine, thats your right. you're being ignorant and pedantic about it but its your right. that doesn't change the fact that they were americans that died in a war and should be honored for their sacrifice AS SOLDIERS.
His choice was against or for his homeland. He chose his homeland.
And I'm quoting from R E Lee: A biography
Ah, so it's okay to be racist if you're being nice. Charlie Chan isn't racist! Look at how nice that guy is!
Uh, no. Again, you're wrong in why he regretted surrendering.
But I don't even expect you to as much care about being factual. It's pretty apparent you just want to bitch about the South.
Wars are fought for power and money. The Civil War is no different.
Such contempt for your fellow countrymen. That must suck for you. You'll grow out of it.
Obama, apparently, isn't too worked up about it.
Except the civil war was fought over money from the disenfranchisement of the basic human rights of an entire race. Vietnam was fought over which economic system was more fair to the common man.
I suppose that means you send wreaths to serial rapists, provided that they're American.
PantsB the nation for the most part has let go of the anger without forgetting the fact that the South supported slavery, shouldn't you too?
Here's a hint: the soldiers who fought in the civil war are dead. They don't care what we think of them.
"Honoring" the dead is something the living do, for the benefit of other living people. I don't see why people who apparently continue to think that the south's cause was just and righteous are worth paying any mind to at all.
my unofficial autobio will be accompanied with tips on how to smile
cause I've found that when they don't see you frown, they never know that you're a threat
and they don't sweat you when you came around
As has been pointed out, this is only true because Lincoln issued a blanket pardon to confederates below command rank.
my unofficial autobio will be accompanied with tips on how to smile
cause I've found that when they don't see you frown, they never know that you're a threat
and they don't sweat you when you came around
Ooo. Wow. Grasping at straws already?
So bravery, valor and patriotism to your home isn't a value to instill in others?
Hmmm.
There are many people in the south that I don't think have let it go, at all.
my unofficial autobio will be accompanied with tips on how to smile
cause I've found that when they don't see you frown, they never know that you're a threat
and they don't sweat you when you came around
meh, continue dodging the point all you like
my unofficial autobio will be accompanied with tips on how to smile
cause I've found that when they don't see you frown, they never know that you're a threat
and they don't sweat you when you came around
yes and they were only citizens in the first part because they were born in this country, what does that matter. they never lost their citizenship, not at any point in time. they were soldiers of the united states of america and should be honored. period.
Such contempt for your fellow countrymen. That must suck for you. You'll grow out of it.
Those aren't the people the wreath is for though.
my unofficial autobio will be accompanied with tips on how to smile
cause I've found that when they don't see you frown, they never know that you're a threat
and they don't sweat you when you came around
No I'm pretty sure Obama didn't lay down the wreath for the neo-Nazis and KKK members in America.
Call it a hunch.
my unofficial autobio will be accompanied with tips on how to smile
cause I've found that when they don't see you frown, they never know that you're a threat
and they don't sweat you when you came around
Patriotism is a fucking terrible concept, man.
http://blog.buzzflash.com/analysis/773
As for the issue with placing the wreath, I would prefer that it wasn't done. But it is lower on my priorities with this issue or with what Obama should worry about.
my unofficial autobio will be accompanied with tips on how to smile
cause I've found that when they don't see you frown, they never know that you're a threat
and they don't sweat you when you came around
very simple. if you commit murder but never get charged, you don't get punished for murder.
if you commit treason and never get charged or get absolved without ever being charged, you don't get punished for treason.
they are not traitors because they were never charged with treason. regardless of what they would have been, they were never proven guilty. in the eyes of the law, they were not traitors.
I just don't see the point. They already think Obama's a traitorous secret terrorist muslim whatever, and they're going to keep attacking him over it, so why not just be honest and call it what it is.
edit: I also think a lot of our current regional strife (and the strife we experienced in the 20th century) can be attributed in large part to never fully dispensing with the issues the civil war brought up. It was obviously tremendously uncomfortable to address them at that time and based on this thread it obviously still is. On the other hand, in a world where it was only very recently found scandalous that a southern statehouse continued to fly the confederate flag, we clearly still have some baggage to deal with.
my unofficial autobio will be accompanied with tips on how to smile
cause I've found that when they don't see you frown, they never know that you're a threat
and they don't sweat you when you came around
OJ wasn't a murderer, either.
my unofficial autobio will be accompanied with tips on how to smile
cause I've found that when they don't see you frown, they never know that you're a threat
and they don't sweat you when you came around
in the eyes of the law.
my unofficial autobio will be accompanied with tips on how to smile
cause I've found that when they don't see you frown, they never know that you're a threat
and they don't sweat you when you came around
Yeah you don't get punished for murder if you don't get found guilty of it. That doesn't mean that you aren't a murder. If you take an action and are never held accountable for it that still means that you took that action and thus labels related to that action can legitimately be applied to you. I think we can see that obviously those fighting for the Confederacy committed treason and thus should be viewed as traitors even though they were not officially charged. I'm not arguing what they should be in the eyes of the law, I'm arguing how would should consider them in the eyes of society.
Do you think that people like the murders of Emmett Till shouldn't be labeled as such even with clear evidence just because they were found innocent?
if they are honoring him, they probably don't see him as a murderer either. their views have no impact on the law though.