Just remember, you are a tank. Ive can get up to 800 str, 200 melee on my black orc, and even slotting all damage tactics and becoming a squishie you will have a hell of a time solo killing healers. As in unless you have a buddie it is not likely to happen.
Black orcs (as our mirror i would guess SM are similar) gain a knockdown and some decent damage going 2 hander. However unless you dramatically outgear a healer you are unlikely to kill them, and MDPS will rip you down even faster than they currently do.
Not sure what SM gain, I know if i am in a premade i tend toward 2h because the extra cc is nice and i can trust my healers to keep me up.
You know that ability you get as a Blorc that increases your block by 50% and damages anyone that you block? That's Wall of Darting Steel for us and requires a 2H.
Still waiting on stuff for MDPS to do when on defense in keep sieges. Mostly I just sit around with my thumb up my ass hoping that the attackers fuck up in some way so I can charge out there without instantly dying.
It just feels like the winner of a siege rests on who brought more range to the party, or once they get to the Lord, whether the Defenders brought enough tanks to wall up.
To an extent who wins a siege does depend largely on numbers. However we've held 106 people out with two warbands so there's a lot of wiggle room with some coordination and a good balance of classes.
For MDPS we combine morale shields with tanks guarding and group heals to kill rams/destory people beating on the door for the most part.
Once they're in yeah, it often comes down to whether you have enough tanks to hold most of them at the wall, but MDPS is important to have for killing any who trickle through and putting some additional DPS through the tank wall. We've had a fair amount of luck with sending a half dozen MDPS over the wall to come in behind and kill their healers once they commit to their push too.
Problem is all of the above involves having people actively working together and is usually a pain in the ass to set up without vent.
So, after making a Greenskin Shaman, and then a Squig Hunter - I've settled on a Choppa. And to the person who said that the Greenskin starting zone was the most entertaining, thank you. It has been pretty fun so far (almost to level 5).
The scenarios are pretty rad too.
I'm on Iron Rock. Name: Melkster.
Add me to your friends lists and such, I get bored sitting around with no one to talk to.
So, after making a Greenskin Shaman, and then a Squig Hunter - I've settled on a Choppa. And to the person who said that the Greenskin starting zone was the most entertaining, thank you. It has been pretty fun so far (almost to level 5).
The scenarios are pretty rad too.
I'm on Iron Rock. Name: Melkster.
Add me to your friends lists and such, I get bored sitting around with no one to talk to.
You know that ability you get as a Blorc that increases your block by 50% and damages anyone that you block? That's Wall of Darting Steel for us and requires a 2H.
Our version is "Cant Hit Me" requires a shield, and is the second to last ability in da toughest tree requiring a 13 point investment, and only affects block.
You would agree that the last patch substantially increased the time-to-kill in T4, right?
Aside from the occasional BW taking chunks out of my health I would agree that TTK in t4 has increased. I would also say currently healers, or any target getting healed have an infinite TTK vs tanks as our burst damage cannot overcome their healing at equal gear. Tank damage needs to come up, especially for sword and board. MDPS needs more tricks to compensate for having to get close while eating shots from ranged, and mitigation needs to be more effective to offset this.
WAR is making steady progress, but we shall see how things go in the next couple patchs. As a black orc I do find the current incarnation of the plan mechanic more as a hinderance than a help.
Still waiting on stuff for MDPS to do when on defense in keep sieges. Mostly I just sit around with my thumb up my ass hoping that the attackers fuck up in some way so I can charge out there without instantly dying.
It just feels like tje winner of a siege rests on who brought more range to the party, or once they get to the Lord, whether the Defenders brought enough tanks to wall up.
You will be happy.
We'll see.
I've bought that particular snake oil one too many times before, so I'll wait to see what's coming. Mythic has mystified me with what it thinks will make me "happy" before, after all.
Still waiting on stuff for MDPS to do when on defense in keep sieges. Mostly I just sit around with my thumb up my ass hoping that the attackers fuck up in some way so I can charge out there without instantly dying.
It just feels like tje winner of a siege rests on who brought more range to the party, or once they get to the Lord, whether the Defenders brought enough tanks to wall up.
You will be happy.
We'll see.
I've bought that particular snake oil one too many times before, so I'll wait to see what's coming. Mythic has mystified me with what it thinks will make me "happy" before, after all.
He's not mythic. He's a tester, a regular player who sees upcoming content firsthand.
Morninglord on
(PSN: Morninglord) (Steam: Morninglord) (WiiU: Morninglord22) I like to record and toss up a lot of random gaming videos here.
Still waiting on stuff for MDPS to do when on defense in keep sieges. Mostly I just sit around with my thumb up my ass hoping that the attackers fuck up in some way so I can charge out there without instantly dying.
It just feels like tje winner of a siege rests on who brought more range to the party, or once they get to the Lord, whether the Defenders brought enough tanks to wall up.
You will be happy.
We'll see.
I've bought that particular snake oil one too many times before, so I'll wait to see what's coming. Mythic has mystified me with what it thinks will make me "happy" before, after all.
So, after making a Greenskin Shaman, and then a Squig Hunter - I've settled on a Choppa. And to the person who said that the Greenskin starting zone was the most entertaining, thank you. It has been pretty fun so far (almost to level 5).
The scenarios are pretty rad too.
I'm on Iron Rock. Name: Melkster.
Add me to your friends lists and such, I get bored sitting around with no one to talk to.
haha what up Melkster
personally I'm thinking about sticking with the squig herder or the choppa, but honestly I'd like to know what the Six Mouths need more. I think I'd enjoy myself in pretty much any role as long as I thought it was useful
i guess i rolled open rvr as opposed to core because i'm not a girl.
In some ways I find oRvR servers are more ballless than core, because if you're getting beaten out of your own tier you can jump down one and beat on them. WAR PvE is so pointless and un-populated that open-world PvP is nonexistent, and the lack of balance for 1v1 means that 80% of fights are decided before they start.
You know that ability you get as a Blorc that increases your block by 50% and damages anyone that you block? That's Wall of Darting Steel for us and requires a 2H.
Our version is "Cant Hit Me" requires a shield, and is the second to last ability in da toughest tree requiring a 13 point investment, and only affects block.
o_O
Right and block affects all incoming attacks. What else would it be affecting?
Anyways, WoDS modifies parry and disrupt which is essentially the same thing. We get it as a core ability at level 40, the reasoning probably being swordmasters are "supposed" to be 2H tanks. I'd have zero problem if they made the 13 point from Khaine a core and put WoDS in it's place. The major downside of WoDS for swordmasters is that you have to give up survivability to use it.
You know that ability you get as a Blorc that increases your block by 50% and damages anyone that you block? That's Wall of Darting Steel for us and requires a 2H.
Our version is "Cant Hit Me" requires a shield, and is the second to last ability in da toughest tree requiring a 13 point investment, and only affects block.
o_O
Right and block affects all incoming attacks. What else would it be affecting?
Anyways, WoDS modifies parry and disrupt which is essentially the same thing. We get it as a core ability at level 40, the reasoning probably being swordmasters are "supposed" to be 2H tanks. I'd have zero problem if they made the 13 point from Khaine a core and put WoDS in it's place. The major downside of WoDS for swordmasters is that you have to give up survivability to use it.
Both are incredibly handy abilities though.
Alot of other Black Orc abilities require 2 handers though... so its a choice of having either or Cant Hit Me, OR your knock down (which also requires speccing up the DPS tree).
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MorninglordI'm tired of being Batman,so today I'll be Owl.Registered Userregular
edited August 2009
Don't bother with the stupid knockdown with all the cc changes. Get the cooldown increaser instead and just snare them.
Seriously, Detharin. "Only block?" I'm sorry man but you are now Mr Negative Nancy, okay. Block is the best defense because it covers all the others.
Morninglord on
(PSN: Morninglord) (Steam: Morninglord) (WiiU: Morninglord22) I like to record and toss up a lot of random gaming videos here.
I'm thinking of switching my WP spec to Grace, since Conqueror (and invader and warlord for that matter) are DPS themed. Anyone have experience with Grace or DoK in the current less AoE heavy state of the game? I tried melee healing a while back, and died from incidental AoE so much that I went back to Salvation.
Don't bother with the stupid knockdown with all the cc changes. Get the cooldown increaser instead and just snare them.
Seriously, Detharin. "Only block?" I'm sorry man but you are now Mr Negative Nancy, okay. Block is the best defense because it covers all the others.
In pve, absolutely. I can hide under cant hit me in a pinch and eat only undefendable attacks. However in PVP the sheer amount of abilities that reduce block really drag it down.
For instance the best shield in the game only gives a 17.7% chance to block vs a soft capped target. No stat increases block, block gear can also be a pain in the ass to find. Moreover certain abilities reduce your chance to block completely. A char using a two hander also recieves a -10% chance to be blocked, not to mention signal flare. So against that two handed using ironbreaker I have a 7.7% chance to take no damage. My base parry is 5%.
Block is great if you stack the ever living hell out of it to the point you can overcome all the negative modifiers on it. Cant Hit Me however is a 40% root. While tossing my back to a wall means i will live a good long while if I am not near a wall they can just get behind me where my block is meaningless. One knockdown and block becomes meaningless.
Lets compare. Can't Hit Me requires 13 points in our tanking tree, gives 50% block and slows us by 40%. Requires a shield which lowers our damage output significantly and prevents use from using our knockdown. Competes directly with Hold the line, which if you are not taking melee damage helps your party. Or we could have Wall of Darting steel which works with a great weapon, allowing increased damage. Does not have a root built into it, and requires no points spent in any tree.
While we are at it Ether dance vs T'ree hit combo. Ether dance has an 8s cooldown, T'ree hit has a 20s. Same position in both trees.
Grab a two hander, use Discerning offense and poised attacks, congrats with a strength of 800 you just took my base block to -8%. Good luck finding the black orc equivalent.
That "stupid knockdown" is currently the highest damage attack we have, and accounts for a good majority of my damage and kills when I am two handed spec. It is our number one healer killing ability, even more than that cooldown increaser because they completely lose the ability to cast while on the ground. With Not in Da Face they can still rotate through other spells. Personally I spec for both when I am going offense.
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MorninglordI'm tired of being Batman,so today I'll be Owl.Registered Userregular
edited August 2009
I didn't know it snared you. Dang.
It's still a great panic button, you can give it to me chosen if you like I'll give you the parry on hit for it. I'd spec that and the aoe snare, hit the aoe snare so they're slowed too, then hit it. You can get both can't you?
Mind you I'm never ever thinking dps when I'm playing a tank.
Morninglord on
(PSN: Morninglord) (Steam: Morninglord) (WiiU: Morninglord22) I like to record and toss up a lot of random gaming videos here.
There's still the problem of there being plenty of block reducing abilities, though. So many in fact, that your "panic button" usually only works for a few seconds, if that, before someone recognizes the animation and takes steps.
This is what I understand from discussions on mechanics, anyway.
Well, it appears that it doesn't really matter how effective melee healing is. I can always simply put on my healing gear and tactics and heal in grace spec. Each heal does like 20 or so less, and I don't get the rather subpar Martyr's Blessing, but otherwise its just as good and I get the +80 wounds buff too. I'm also far enough into salv to get the group shield, which helps with both melee and general healing.
And I can switch to melee healing tactics/gear any time out of combat. Seems the more versatile spec.
Personally, I think that self healing should have deminishing returns. The more you heal yourself within a set amount of time, the less effective the heals can be.
Sure would help stop WPs going from 20% of their life to 100% and then launch an offensive. Mind you, this is happening all the while you are beating on them.
Personally, I think that self healing should have deminishing returns. The more you heal yourself within a set amount of time, the less effective the heals can be.
Sure would help stop WPs going from 20% of their life to 100% and then launch an offensive. Mind you, this is happening all the while you are beating on them.
If you've had them do this in t4....something is very, very wrong. Divine assault heals for maybe 1500 each tick, half that against tanks, and divine strike depends on how much damage it does, so probably about 350-400 on a squishy target, next to nothing on a tank.
WP that are in melee healing getup are either doing no damage because they are just healing with a 2 hander out, or the squishiest class out there.
1 on 1 in tier 1, well duh. I've won 3 against 1 fights on my DoK. Now, in t4, a WP will probably win a 1 on 1 fight, but thats not really what the game is about. And 2 on 1, he's fucked, especially if one of the 2 is a witch elf.
If anything, self healing needs buffs, so that Salvation/Dark Rites isn't a no-brainer. Unless you aren't talking about melee healing and are just talking about regular heals cast on self. Which would be odd too.
Ran into a war priest in LOTD about 2 weeks ago. He was beating on a marauder friend of mine. Our group was really strung out due to heading to back to the warcamp. I go to help the marauder, Marauder dies 2 hits later. Now its me and the warpriest, I cannot hurt him, he is barely able to hurt me. Shaman comes up resses the marauder, who then dies in 2 hits. Warpriest goes for the shaman, before i can even get guard up hes dead. We are talking <5 seconds. Choppa comes up he dies in <5 seconds. These are all level 40's, the entire time I am beating on/ccing the warpriest to no avail. We fight for another couple minutes until i get bored and leave. Warpriests, like most healers, need a major hit of the nerf bat in the survivability department.
Ran into a war priest in LOTD about 2 weeks ago. He was beating on a marauder friend of mine. Our group was really strung out due to heading to back to the warcamp. I go to help the marauder, Marauder dies 2 hits later. Now its me and the warpriest, I cannot hurt him, he is barely able to hurt me. Shaman comes up resses the marauder, who then dies in 2 hits. Warpriest goes for the shaman, before i can even get guard up hes dead. We are talking <5 seconds. Choppa comes up he dies in <5 seconds. These are all level 40's, the entire time I am beating on/ccing the warpriest to no avail. We fight for another couple minutes until i get bored and leave. Warpriests, like most healers, need a major hit of the nerf bat in the survivability department.
Was that Patriotic or someone else?
I know that at the very high end, WP can just spec for toughness and damage, and then with their self AC buff and damage healing themselves, they become pretty unstoppable.
EDIT: I should note, that a ranged class like a Squig Herder could have pretty easily kited him down... not so sure if a Magus or Sorc could do the same though.
I'd be hesitant to call for anything to be nerfed based on people wearing the best gear the in game. A top end witch elf can kill me before I can hit the detaunt button, but I wouldn't claim that they really need any nerfs.
I know that at the very high end, WP can just spec for toughness and damage, and then with their self AC buff and damage healing themselves, they become pretty unstoppable.
EDIT: I should note, that a ranged class like a Squig Herder could have pretty easily kited him down... not so sure if a Magus or Sorc could do the same though.
Dont remember the name, but frank IMO "kiting someone down" should never be the solution. In pvp the answer should not be " because this guys class has no tools to catch me as long as I keep running i either win, or he runs off and its a stalemate." You also touch on another problem with the game, DPS and to an extent some healer classes are abilities with the assumption they will be high damage, low survivability targets. However you stack on toughness and get the best of both worlds. Tanks on the other hand get lower base damage abilities, and on some of our higher damage abilities get less contribution from stats. Everyone gets the same bonus from toughness.
If I have 5 guys on me im doing my job, due to some miracle that they want to target me. If a healer has 5 guys on him and is not dying not only is he doing my job, doing my job better than I can, but also doing his job
The major problem with this game is that force multiplication is out of whack. 1 + 1 = 3, ok we are good. The problem is 1 + 1 can equal anywhere from 2 to 24 based on which 2 classes get added.
Well, I definitely want to convey the fact that changes aren't off the table, in fact a lot of them are being considered, however timeline wise, we're not talking immediate future. 1.3.1 is going to be focusing on bug fixes and bug fixes only for Combat and Careers, which will go a long ways towards helping us get a good fix on where we need to focus.
The Disciple of Khaine must be in close range of his opponent as he requires the blood of the enemy to enact his dark rites. As such, a Disciple is trained both with the blade and the dark arts, capable of weaving the two into a staggering blend of offensive and defensive power. In small fights, the Disciple is a master of shifting the balance of a fight; what they reap from their enemies they give to their allies. What was once an opponent's strength will soon become their own.
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You know that ability you get as a Blorc that increases your block by 50% and damages anyone that you block? That's Wall of Darting Steel for us and requires a 2H.
To an extent who wins a siege does depend largely on numbers. However we've held 106 people out with two warbands so there's a lot of wiggle room with some coordination and a good balance of classes.
For MDPS we combine morale shields with tanks guarding and group heals to kill rams/destory people beating on the door for the most part.
Once they're in yeah, it often comes down to whether you have enough tanks to hold most of them at the wall, but MDPS is important to have for killing any who trickle through and putting some additional DPS through the tank wall. We've had a fair amount of luck with sending a half dozen MDPS over the wall to come in behind and kill their healers once they commit to their push too.
Problem is all of the above involves having people actively working together and is usually a pain in the ass to set up without vent.
The scenarios are pretty rad too.
I'm on Iron Rock. Name: Melkster.
Add me to your friends lists and such, I get bored sitting around with no one to talk to.
There's always the Iron Rock IRC channel:
irc.sorcery.net
#Ironrock
Our version is "Cant Hit Me" requires a shield, and is the second to last ability in da toughest tree requiring a 13 point investment, and only affects block.
Aside from the occasional BW taking chunks out of my health I would agree that TTK in t4 has increased. I would also say currently healers, or any target getting healed have an infinite TTK vs tanks as our burst damage cannot overcome their healing at equal gear. Tank damage needs to come up, especially for sword and board. MDPS needs more tricks to compensate for having to get close while eating shots from ranged, and mitigation needs to be more effective to offset this.
WAR is making steady progress, but we shall see how things go in the next couple patchs. As a black orc I do find the current incarnation of the plan mechanic more as a hinderance than a help.
We'll see.
I've bought that particular snake oil one too many times before, so I'll wait to see what's coming. Mythic has mystified me with what it thinks will make me "happy" before, after all.
PSN: ShogunGunshow
Origin: ShogunGunshow
He's not mythic. He's a tester, a regular player who sees upcoming content firsthand.
Meh.
PSN: ShogunGunshow
Origin: ShogunGunshow
:P
LAST WORD
PSN: ShogunGunshow
Origin: ShogunGunshow
No Guard For You
Moku the Guard Nazi has spoken.
edit: That reminds me, how did you guys go after I left. Did Corrigan tank?
haha what up Melkster
personally I'm thinking about sticking with the squig herder or the choppa, but honestly I'd like to know what the Six Mouths need more. I think I'd enjoy myself in pretty much any role as long as I thought it was useful
30 magus incoming
i guess i rolled open rvr as opposed to core because i'm not a girl.
In some ways I find oRvR servers are more ballless than core, because if you're getting beaten out of your own tier you can jump down one and beat on them. WAR PvE is so pointless and un-populated that open-world PvP is nonexistent, and the lack of balance for 1v1 means that 80% of fights are decided before they start.
o_O
Right and block affects all incoming attacks. What else would it be affecting?
Anyways, WoDS modifies parry and disrupt which is essentially the same thing. We get it as a core ability at level 40, the reasoning probably being swordmasters are "supposed" to be 2H tanks. I'd have zero problem if they made the 13 point from Khaine a core and put WoDS in it's place. The major downside of WoDS for swordmasters is that you have to give up survivability to use it.
Both are incredibly handy abilities though.
Alot of other Black Orc abilities require 2 handers though... so its a choice of having either or Cant Hit Me, OR your knock down (which also requires speccing up the DPS tree).
MWO: Adamski
Seriously, Detharin. "Only block?" I'm sorry man but you are now Mr Negative Nancy, okay. Block is the best defense because it covers all the others.
In pve, absolutely. I can hide under cant hit me in a pinch and eat only undefendable attacks. However in PVP the sheer amount of abilities that reduce block really drag it down.
For instance the best shield in the game only gives a 17.7% chance to block vs a soft capped target. No stat increases block, block gear can also be a pain in the ass to find. Moreover certain abilities reduce your chance to block completely. A char using a two hander also recieves a -10% chance to be blocked, not to mention signal flare. So against that two handed using ironbreaker I have a 7.7% chance to take no damage. My base parry is 5%.
Block is great if you stack the ever living hell out of it to the point you can overcome all the negative modifiers on it. Cant Hit Me however is a 40% root. While tossing my back to a wall means i will live a good long while if I am not near a wall they can just get behind me where my block is meaningless. One knockdown and block becomes meaningless.
Lets compare. Can't Hit Me requires 13 points in our tanking tree, gives 50% block and slows us by 40%. Requires a shield which lowers our damage output significantly and prevents use from using our knockdown. Competes directly with Hold the line, which if you are not taking melee damage helps your party. Or we could have Wall of Darting steel which works with a great weapon, allowing increased damage. Does not have a root built into it, and requires no points spent in any tree.
While we are at it Ether dance vs T'ree hit combo. Ether dance has an 8s cooldown, T'ree hit has a 20s. Same position in both trees.
Grab a two hander, use Discerning offense and poised attacks, congrats with a strength of 800 you just took my base block to -8%. Good luck finding the black orc equivalent.
That "stupid knockdown" is currently the highest damage attack we have, and accounts for a good majority of my damage and kills when I am two handed spec. It is our number one healer killing ability, even more than that cooldown increaser because they completely lose the ability to cast while on the ground. With Not in Da Face they can still rotate through other spells. Personally I spec for both when I am going offense.
It's still a great panic button, you can give it to me chosen if you like I'll give you the parry on hit for it. I'd spec that and the aoe snare, hit the aoe snare so they're slowed too, then hit it. You can get both can't you?
Mind you I'm never ever thinking dps when I'm playing a tank.
This is what I understand from discussions on mechanics, anyway.
PSN: ShogunGunshow
Origin: ShogunGunshow
And I can switch to melee healing tactics/gear any time out of combat. Seems the more versatile spec.
Sure would help stop WPs going from 20% of their life to 100% and then launch an offensive. Mind you, this is happening all the while you are beating on them.
If you've had them do this in t4....something is very, very wrong. Divine assault heals for maybe 1500 each tick, half that against tanks, and divine strike depends on how much damage it does, so probably about 350-400 on a squishy target, next to nothing on a tank.
WP that are in melee healing getup are either doing no damage because they are just healing with a 2 hander out, or the squishiest class out there.
1 on 1 in tier 1, well duh. I've won 3 against 1 fights on my DoK. Now, in t4, a WP will probably win a 1 on 1 fight, but thats not really what the game is about. And 2 on 1, he's fucked, especially if one of the 2 is a witch elf.
If anything, self healing needs buffs, so that Salvation/Dark Rites isn't a no-brainer. Unless you aren't talking about melee healing and are just talking about regular heals cast on self. Which would be odd too.
Was that Patriotic or someone else?
I know that at the very high end, WP can just spec for toughness and damage, and then with their self AC buff and damage healing themselves, they become pretty unstoppable.
EDIT: I should note, that a ranged class like a Squig Herder could have pretty easily kited him down... not so sure if a Magus or Sorc could do the same though.
MWO: Adamski
Dont remember the name, but frank IMO "kiting someone down" should never be the solution. In pvp the answer should not be " because this guys class has no tools to catch me as long as I keep running i either win, or he runs off and its a stalemate." You also touch on another problem with the game, DPS and to an extent some healer classes are abilities with the assumption they will be high damage, low survivability targets. However you stack on toughness and get the best of both worlds. Tanks on the other hand get lower base damage abilities, and on some of our higher damage abilities get less contribution from stats. Everyone gets the same bonus from toughness.
If I have 5 guys on me im doing my job, due to some miracle that they want to target me. If a healer has 5 guys on him and is not dying not only is he doing my job, doing my job better than I can, but also doing his job
The major problem with this game is that force multiplication is out of whack. 1 + 1 = 3, ok we are good. The problem is 1 + 1 can equal anywhere from 2 to 24 based on which 2 classes get added.
I hope some of you guys were doing stuff in t1, because i was railing off top 3 dmg done before i even hit rank 5. (currently rank 6)
Yeah, SW. Most gimped class in the game.
Can't wait to pizzily cap you guys.
lol
SW = Shadow Warrior, right?
You should have made a Destruction class on Iron Rock.
Enjoy your easy mode.
i remember dropping the choppa because scenarios never popped for destro while i was playing.
anywhoo i tried to join you guys sunday afternoon but you only had 2 people on.
so i figured... if you can't join 'em, shoot them with an acid filled arrow and put sharp things in their squishy parts from a distance.
I'm going to unveil my tank killing spec on morsk for having the nerve to disagree with me about anything ever.
The reckoning is at hand.
i believe it's nearly a mirror except you don't have the ability to detaunt more than 1 target (that may have changed)
you do a lil more dmg than the wp to compensate
They don't have mass detaunt (tactic) or 10% disrupt (tactic) and yeah, in return they get more damage based tactics.