DoKs are fun from what I hear. I just can't get into the mechanic for DoKs/WPs personally.
I do know a 40 DoK who slots four or five purple armor talis and is a beast. We've done a few runs with him being guarded by a Blorc plus a Brutality spec marauder, a choppa, a shammy and myself as a Savagery spec marauder. The results have been amusing. We basically just go from healer to healer mauling them.
The major problem with this game is that force multiplication is out of whack. 1 + 1 = 3, ok we are good. The problem is 1 + 1 can equal anywhere from 2 to 24 based on which 2 classes get added.
Statements like this are why I have a hard time taking things you say seriously.
There is no two class combination in the game that has a prayer against a Warband, or even half a warband, unless most of them are standing around patiently waiting to die.
You can put 2 LV+Warlord geared RR80 of any class together and I'll happily go up against them with one of our alliances regular 6 person groups over and over for the free royal crests.
The major problem with this game is that force multiplication is out of whack. 1 + 1 = 3, ok we are good. The problem is 1 + 1 can equal anywhere from 2 to 24 based on which 2 classes get added.
Statements like this are why I have a hard time taking things you say seriously.
There is no two class combination in the game that has a prayer against a Warband, or even half a warband, unless most of them are standing around patiently waiting to die.
You can put 2 LV+Warlord geared RR80 of any class together and I'll happily go up against them with one of our alliances regular 6 person groups over and over for the free royal crests.
The numbers I was using are arbitrary to make the point that some classes are better designed at making others better. Remember 1.2 where a handful of BW were wiping warbands? How about 1.3 where all you needed was a couple healers, and BW or two to rack up the renown? 1 + 1 has in the past equaled some rather high numbers.
Lets look at now. Tank + healer is going to live a good long while, however chances of killing anyone if the other side has a healer is low. Tank + Mdps you might get some kills but eventually you are going down. You could say this combo brings more to the table in a 2 person scenario. You can toss this out for every class and combo. After awhile you start to see certain combos are more effective. This should not be a surprise to anyone currently playing the game.
We shall see how 1.3.1 and 1.4 does however currently there are some major problems with inner archetype balance. Ive yet to see anyone build a scen group around a engineer, or a shadow warrior.
Moreover take black orcs, aside from a randomly buffing everyones stats by 114 that is the end of my group utility. Anything else i can do, can be done by any other tank. I do not have a lot of abilities to multiply my allies force. Some classes offer much better group synergy, and in this game making your group better tends to win battles. Hence my original point, 1 + 1 does not always equal 3.
"Everyone who is capable of logical thought should be able to see why you shouldn't sell lifetime subscriptions to an MMO. Cell phone companies and drug dealers don't offer lifetime subscriptions either, guess why?" - Mugaaz
i believe it's nearly a mirror except you don't have the ability to detaunt more than 1 target (that may have changed)
you do a lil more dmg than the wp to compensate
They don't have mass detaunt (tactic) or 10% disrupt (tactic) and yeah, in return they get more damage based tactics.
They get free 10% parry if they go dual wield but defense wise theyre more about killing threats. If you get a disciple on the back foot, where he can't attack you anymore because he has to sit there and heal himself, without help he's on an eventual downhill road to death. (unless he's dr of course and has a chalice/guard, etc)
I use my detaunt all the time though, I pick the highest priority damage dealer to help myself out. Usually a wh, wl or bw at this point.
A frontline WP to me seems like it's more designed to be beat on since they get some nice tactics like the aoe detaunt, a tactic that gives them a percentage chance everytime they are hit by damage to gain some righteous fury, etc.
Whereas a frontline disciple seems like its meant to be the hurty pain in the ass that nips in and helps the assist train while healing its group.
Morninglord on
(PSN: Morninglord) (Steam: Morninglord) (WiiU: Morninglord22) I like to record and toss up a lot of random gaming videos here.
I've always really, really liked the way DoKs are designed to be played, but I never make one because I realize that if I don't stand back and spam group heal 90% of the time, I'll get yelled at and suck.
I understand that the latest patch has changed that somewhat but I still see it happening the huge majority of the time. I have a 29 DoK on another server that I mostly leveled with my brother, a Black Guard, playing tank buddy. T2 was just incredible fun because I was actually playing the role of melee healer.
MorninglordI'm tired of being Batman,so today I'll be Owl.Registered Userregular
edited August 2009
I could outheal t3 oil on the door as a melee dok before i left. This is on my oceania dok. I dunno if I'd last through the upgraded oils they got without a guard, but I do know that melee heals are huge helps because they're group independent. They hit everybody 20feet around you.
So I actually tend to run with a hybrid chalice melee heal setup for large group stuff, where I can do some normal heals if I need it, I can still rend and my points in melee are not wasted. Any melee that thinks I'm easy pickings just because I'm at the front lines with a chalice becomes a tasty heal snack. I put all my renown points in toughness but gear for wounds strength with a bit of willpower.
I always have divine fury on and don't give a damn that my heals aren't as good, since the chalice is also giving me a rend whenever I need it.
If you need someone to stay alive under focus fire, the group heal wont help them, you need to layer your hots as well.
Morninglord on
(PSN: Morninglord) (Steam: Morninglord) (WiiU: Morninglord22) I like to record and toss up a lot of random gaming videos here.
I could outheal t3 oil on the door as a melee dok before i left. This is on my oceania dok. I dunno if I'd last through the upgraded oils they got without a guard, but I do know that melee heals are huge helps because they're group independent. They hit everybody 20feet around you..
Melee heal outheals oil in t4, too. As long as there aren't too many casters AoEing the spot, of course.
So, a bunch of us got together and started playing new characters on Iron Rock. So far we have, in between levels 1 and 10, 3 Squig Hunters and 2 Shaman.
I might eventually decide to play my Choppa instead of the shaman. We'll see. I'm just feeling out what class I want to explore the game with. Might even decide to level both concurrently.
Anyway, if anyone else wants to roll new characters and play with us, feel free. Seems like quite a bit of fun.
I could outheal t3 oil on the door as a melee dok before i left. This is on my oceania dok. I dunno if I'd last through the upgraded oils they got without a guard, but I do know that melee heals are huge helps because they're group independent. They hit everybody 20feet around you..
Melee heal outheals oil in t4, too. As long as there aren't too many casters AoEing the spot, of course.
Kewl
Morninglord on
(PSN: Morninglord) (Steam: Morninglord) (WiiU: Morninglord22) I like to record and toss up a lot of random gaming videos here.
So, I was chasing a marauder down, when I reached the middle of nowhere and finally decided to check his buffs. The +100 wound buff, +500 armor buff, and 60% ride speed mount indicated bad news. Got him to like 20% though. At least he bowed to me after I died.
As for BW/Sorcs, they are about the same. BW were ungodly better before the last patch though.
Anyone know of a Raid Frames addon with a built-in automatic range checker? When someone walks into range, their name becomes bright. When they walk out of range, their name gets dark. No need to click on the name to see if they're in range or not, as with Squared.
To whoever gives me the name of a successful mod, I will give them 1 billion dollars. Honest.
They disabled the ability to range check in raid frames a while back. They didn't like people automating their healing, so you get to play whack a mole on hard mode.
Anyone know of a Raid Frames addon with a built-in automatic range checker? When someone walks into range, their name becomes bright. When they walk out of range, their name gets dark. No need to click on the name to see if they're in range or not, as with Squared.
To whoever gives me the name of a successful mod, I will give them 1 billion dollars. Honest.
Mythic's programmers used the code in such a way as to make auto-range checking impossible for modders. Well, they haven't found a way to do it since its been launched, anyway, and from what I've read over-hauling the initial code would sort of be like tearing down the golden arch bridge and rebuilding it.
Your BEST bet is a mod called Squared. It'll gray out people when you try to click them and they are not in range, and will keep them greyed out for like 10-12 seconds.
Might I also suggest just playing world of warcraft? Excellent mod support, excellent programming, and they don't leave any of the player classes in horrendous unplayable states for too long.
eatmosushi on
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC] Spun uncontrollably skyward... Driven brutally into the ground
They disabled the ability to range check in raid frames a while back. They didn't like people automating their healing, so you get to play whack a mole on hard mode.
FALSE.
What really happened was that there was a very long macro that would allow you to 'cycle' all targets that were within friendly targeting range, and then cast a spell on whatever target that met a certain criteria. i.e. 75% life, etc etc.
Bad programming is bad programming. Thats why our top of the line machines chug this awful game while Crysis runs like silk.
eatmosushi on
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC] Spun uncontrollably skyward... Driven brutally into the ground
Anyone know of a Raid Frames addon with a built-in automatic range checker? When someone walks into range, their name becomes bright. When they walk out of range, their name gets dark. No need to click on the name to see if they're in range or not, as with Squared.
To whoever gives me the name of a successful mod, I will give them 1 billion dollars. Honest.
Mythic's programmers used the code in such a way as to make auto-range checking impossible for modders. Well, they haven't found a way to do it since its been launched, anyway, and from what I've read over-hauling the initial code would sort of be like tearing down the golden arch bridge and rebuilding it.
Your BEST bet is a mod called Squared. It'll gray out people when you try to click them and they are not in range, and will keep them greyed out for like 10-12 seconds.
Might I also suggest just playing world of warcraft? Excellent mod support, excellent programming, and they don't leave any of the player classes in horrendous unplayable states for too long.
Yeah, I downloaded Squared.
I guess I'll just have to be much more aware of who specifically is around me. Could make for a more interesting healing experience.
Re: World of Warcraft, I have two level 80s, a level 70, and two level 60s. Defeated almost every end-game dungeon at the time it was endgame (MC, BWL, AQ40, SSC, TK, Mount Hyjal, Black Temple, Naxx, Ulduar) in between breaks from the game. Admittedly, I have not killed most of the Ulduar hardmodes.
I could go back to WoW, but I'm pretty much seen everything there is to see in the entire game. I'd like to give this new game a legitimate shot, ya know? There's alot that it does much better than WoW.
They disabled the ability to range check in raid frames a while back. They didn't like people automating their healing, so you get to play whack a mole on hard mode.
FALSE.
What really happened was that there was a very long macro that would allow you to 'cycle' all targets that were within friendly targeting range, and then cast a spell on whatever target that met a certain criteria. i.e. 75% life, etc etc.
Bad programming is bad programming. Thats why our top of the line machines chug this awful game while Crysis runs like silk.
I thought that was what I wrote, but what I meant was they they disabled the ability to automatically update range, as you say.
From new WoW Q&A:
"The Catapults are unique in that they allow players to shoot themselves to any destination they see fit. I would recommend shooting yourself over your opponent’s walls and using the Saronite bombs inside!"
I wonder if they did that just to taunt Warhammer. As in now you can do something in WoW that you see in the WAR intro but can't actually do in the WAR game.
On the plus side, while framerate drops to the single digit numbers in keep sieges, at least you don't get 30 second lag like in wintergrasp. So its still playable in comparison.
Isn't that a bad thing? For all the dudes that just stay at top of their tier and twink the shit out of themselves? Unless they made it an opt-in thing.
So, I haven't played since, like, December. I've grown rather bored of LotRO and am looking to come back to WAR.
I'm curious: did they ever get around to fixing that obnoxious build-up time problem? That was pretty much a deal-breaker for my QS-specced Squig Herder.
So, I haven't played since, like, December. I've grown rather bored of LotRO and am looking to come back to WAR.
I'm curious: did they ever get around to fixing that obnoxious build-up time problem? That was pretty much a deal-breaker for my QS-specced Squig Herder.
Yep, it was a pretty easy fix once someone broke down their UI and showed them what they did wrong. :P
From new WoW Q&A:
"The Catapults are unique in that they allow players to shoot themselves to any destination they see fit. I would recommend shooting yourself over your opponent’s walls and using the Saronite bombs inside!"
I wonder if they did that just to taunt Warhammer. As in now you can do something in WoW that you see in the WAR intro but can't actually do in the WAR game.
You can do it in WAR. t1 Orcs and Gobbos do so on one of their quests.
From new WoW Q&A:
"The Catapults are unique in that they allow players to shoot themselves to any destination they see fit. I would recommend shooting yourself over your opponent’s walls and using the Saronite bombs inside!"
I wonder if they did that just to taunt Warhammer. As in now you can do something in WoW that you see in the WAR intro but can't actually do in the WAR game.
You can do it in WAR. t1 Orcs and Gobbos do so on one of their quests.
Yeah, but not anywhere that matters. Like in a keep/fort siege.
So wow has taken a feature already in war that is not currently applied in a meaningful manner, and applied it in a non meaningful manner? Good for them.
I can see why they are leery about catapults, especially because if you could get a tank into a keep the healers could just heal them from the ground. We would be back to the keep ninjaing nonsense. Personally I would just add door controls to the inside, and make the keep lord spawn when both doors are down. You could have tanks beating on the doors from the outside, tanks flinging themselves onto the walls forcing enemy defenders to deal with them before the tanks break the door controls. In addition you could make it so tanks could break the deadbolt allowing MDPS to get inside. Moreover the bulwark ability could be used to repair the deadbolt/door controls.
This would get melee into the fight more. There is little reason for an undefended keep to not fall quickly. Add an ability for the controlling guild to teleport into a keep as long as the outer doors are up and you could make a decent fight of things.
Detharin on
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MorninglordI'm tired of being Batman,so today I'll be Owl.Registered Userregular
edited August 2009
Make the catapult half health them and apply no heal debuff for a few min.
Uses a siege pad, has a cooldown, can't be used on the inside, is fragile, tons of different ways.
It should be said though, I'm leery of randomly adding things without fixing current problems. I don't care what WoW has because I'm never playing Wow again.
I got my t2 chalice and Snare Sword (tm) so I'm done with t2 on my Iron Pickle Dok. Got 3 bubbles to go till 22, will prolly just do a sc or two to get it then its off to t3.
Guess I'll have to quest a bit at the start or something, I've already used up a couple of my shammy quests.
Morninglord on
(PSN: Morninglord) (Steam: Morninglord) (WiiU: Morninglord22) I like to record and toss up a lot of random gaming videos here.
Also - people will dig the Live Event. And they'll love <redacted>. And they'll really love <can't talk about yet>, and <more stuff that people really want to see>, and <stuff people have been begging for for a long time>, and.....you get the idea.
Just....don't give up on the game, ok? Everyone is going to be happy about the upcoming stuff, very soon.
First time poster, please don't hurt me.
Let me try to fill in the blanks here, as a non core-tester.
"people will dig the Live Event. And they'll love PQ in RvR zone again. And they'll really love the beautiful PvE instance, and new things to do to your opponent in RvR zones, and a vanity slot for event items, and.....you get the idea."
Now I am sure many people are excited about a new live event, but I'm not sure non-RvR event would get much traction in players' minds.
On the other hand, 1.3.1's bug patch looks more interesting, as Andy (from Mythic) listed some preliminary patch notes about marauders, stating that some of their abilities "have stat contribution lower than intended". I think even with hundreds of bugs fixed, Mythic would still have hundreds more to go, but I do hope they can fix most of the career and combat bugs - a move that would do so much six or even three months before.
Posts
I do know a 40 DoK who slots four or five purple armor talis and is a beast. We've done a few runs with him being guarded by a Blorc plus a Brutality spec marauder, a choppa, a shammy and myself as a Savagery spec marauder. The results have been amusing. We basically just go from healer to healer mauling them.
Statements like this are why I have a hard time taking things you say seriously.
There is no two class combination in the game that has a prayer against a Warband, or even half a warband, unless most of them are standing around patiently waiting to die.
You can put 2 LV+Warlord geared RR80 of any class together and I'll happily go up against them with one of our alliances regular 6 person groups over and over for the free royal crests.
The numbers I was using are arbitrary to make the point that some classes are better designed at making others better. Remember 1.2 where a handful of BW were wiping warbands? How about 1.3 where all you needed was a couple healers, and BW or two to rack up the renown? 1 + 1 has in the past equaled some rather high numbers.
Lets look at now. Tank + healer is going to live a good long while, however chances of killing anyone if the other side has a healer is low. Tank + Mdps you might get some kills but eventually you are going down. You could say this combo brings more to the table in a 2 person scenario. You can toss this out for every class and combo. After awhile you start to see certain combos are more effective. This should not be a surprise to anyone currently playing the game.
We shall see how 1.3.1 and 1.4 does however currently there are some major problems with inner archetype balance. Ive yet to see anyone build a scen group around a engineer, or a shadow warrior.
Moreover take black orcs, aside from a randomly buffing everyones stats by 114 that is the end of my group utility. Anything else i can do, can be done by any other tank. I do not have a lot of abilities to multiply my allies force. Some classes offer much better group synergy, and in this game making your group better tends to win battles. Hence my original point, 1 + 1 does not always equal 3.
"Everyone who is capable of logical thought should be able to see why you shouldn't sell lifetime subscriptions to an MMO. Cell phone companies and drug dealers don't offer lifetime subscriptions either, guess why?" - Mugaaz
He has a Nintendo Wii.
They get free 10% parry if they go dual wield but defense wise theyre more about killing threats. If you get a disciple on the back foot, where he can't attack you anymore because he has to sit there and heal himself, without help he's on an eventual downhill road to death. (unless he's dr of course and has a chalice/guard, etc)
I use my detaunt all the time though, I pick the highest priority damage dealer to help myself out. Usually a wh, wl or bw at this point.
A frontline WP to me seems like it's more designed to be beat on since they get some nice tactics like the aoe detaunt, a tactic that gives them a percentage chance everytime they are hit by damage to gain some righteous fury, etc.
Whereas a frontline disciple seems like its meant to be the hurty pain in the ass that nips in and helps the assist train while healing its group.
I understand that the latest patch has changed that somewhat but I still see it happening the huge majority of the time. I have a 29 DoK on another server that I mostly leveled with my brother, a Black Guard, playing tank buddy. T2 was just incredible fun because I was actually playing the role of melee healer.
Later on, though...
PSN: ShogunGunshow
Origin: ShogunGunshow
So I actually tend to run with a hybrid chalice melee heal setup for large group stuff, where I can do some normal heals if I need it, I can still rend and my points in melee are not wasted. Any melee that thinks I'm easy pickings just because I'm at the front lines with a chalice becomes a tasty heal snack. I put all my renown points in toughness but gear for wounds strength with a bit of willpower.
I always have divine fury on and don't give a damn that my heals aren't as good, since the chalice is also giving me a rend whenever I need it.
If you need someone to stay alive under focus fire, the group heal wont help them, you need to layer your hots as well.
Melee heal outheals oil in t4, too. As long as there aren't too many casters AoEing the spot, of course.
I might eventually decide to play my Choppa instead of the shaman. We'll see. I'm just feeling out what class I want to explore the game with. Might even decide to level both concurrently.
Anyway, if anyone else wants to roll new characters and play with us, feel free. Seems like quite a bit of fun.
Kewl
As for BW/Sorcs, they are about the same. BW were ungodly better before the last patch though.
They are both exactly the same in terms of balance. At least coming from a White Lion.
...
God damnit, Echo. Put down the KY.
goodbye warhammer.
Anyone know of a Raid Frames addon with a built-in automatic range checker? When someone walks into range, their name becomes bright. When they walk out of range, their name gets dark. No need to click on the name to see if they're in range or not, as with Squared.
To whoever gives me the name of a successful mod, I will give them 1 billion dollars. Honest.
Mythic's programmers used the code in such a way as to make auto-range checking impossible for modders. Well, they haven't found a way to do it since its been launched, anyway, and from what I've read over-hauling the initial code would sort of be like tearing down the golden arch bridge and rebuilding it.
Your BEST bet is a mod called Squared. It'll gray out people when you try to click them and they are not in range, and will keep them greyed out for like 10-12 seconds.
Might I also suggest just playing world of warcraft? Excellent mod support, excellent programming, and they don't leave any of the player classes in horrendous unplayable states for too long.
FALSE.
What really happened was that there was a very long macro that would allow you to 'cycle' all targets that were within friendly targeting range, and then cast a spell on whatever target that met a certain criteria. i.e. 75% life, etc etc.
Bad programming is bad programming. Thats why our top of the line machines chug this awful game while Crysis runs like silk.
Yeah, I downloaded Squared.
I guess I'll just have to be much more aware of who specifically is around me. Could make for a more interesting healing experience.
Re: World of Warcraft, I have two level 80s, a level 70, and two level 60s. Defeated almost every end-game dungeon at the time it was endgame (MC, BWL, AQ40, SSC, TK, Mount Hyjal, Black Temple, Naxx, Ulduar) in between breaks from the game. Admittedly, I have not killed most of the Ulduar hardmodes.
I could go back to WoW, but I'm pretty much seen everything there is to see in the entire game. I'd like to give this new game a legitimate shot, ya know? There's alot that it does much better than WoW.
I thought that was what I wrote, but what I meant was they they disabled the ability to automatically update range, as you say.
"The Catapults are unique in that they allow players to shoot themselves to any destination they see fit. I would recommend shooting yourself over your opponent’s walls and using the Saronite bombs inside!"
I wonder if they did that just to taunt Warhammer. As in now you can do something in WoW that you see in the WAR intro but can't actually do in the WAR game.
I don't see it on the Herald. Does anyone have a link to where the goodies coming were discussed?
PSN: ShogunGunshow
Origin: ShogunGunshow
JKyle just anticipated that the announcement would be yesterday/today.
You are comparing engine function to engine visualization. How an engine processes graphics is different to how it handles scripting commands.
Isn't that a bad thing? For all the dudes that just stay at top of their tier and twink the shit out of themselves? Unless they made it an opt-in thing.
So everybody wins?
I want to get flipped into the Twink pool.
If you know what I mean.
:winky:
Aaaaand I'm done.
PS: You people better make new Destruction characters on Iron Rock to play with tonight. It will be awesome.
That is indeed good news, sir! I wish you well in your brave new adventure!
Door, ass, etc.
I'm curious: did they ever get around to fixing that obnoxious build-up time problem? That was pretty much a deal-breaker for my QS-specced Squig Herder.
Yep, it was a pretty easy fix once someone broke down their UI and showed them what they did wrong. :P
MWO: Adamski
You can do it in WAR. t1 Orcs and Gobbos do so on one of their quests.
Yeah, but not anywhere that matters. Like in a keep/fort siege.
I can see why they are leery about catapults, especially because if you could get a tank into a keep the healers could just heal them from the ground. We would be back to the keep ninjaing nonsense. Personally I would just add door controls to the inside, and make the keep lord spawn when both doors are down. You could have tanks beating on the doors from the outside, tanks flinging themselves onto the walls forcing enemy defenders to deal with them before the tanks break the door controls. In addition you could make it so tanks could break the deadbolt allowing MDPS to get inside. Moreover the bulwark ability could be used to repair the deadbolt/door controls.
This would get melee into the fight more. There is little reason for an undefended keep to not fall quickly. Add an ability for the controlling guild to teleport into a keep as long as the outer doors are up and you could make a decent fight of things.
Uses a siege pad, has a cooldown, can't be used on the inside, is fragile, tons of different ways.
It should be said though, I'm leery of randomly adding things without fixing current problems. I don't care what WoW has because I'm never playing Wow again.
I got my t2 chalice and Snare Sword (tm) so I'm done with t2 on my Iron Pickle Dok. Got 3 bubbles to go till 22, will prolly just do a sc or two to get it then its off to t3.
Guess I'll have to quest a bit at the start or something, I've already used up a couple of my shammy quests.
First time poster, please don't hurt me.
Let me try to fill in the blanks here, as a non core-tester.
"people will dig the Live Event. And they'll love PQ in RvR zone again. And they'll really love the beautiful PvE instance, and new things to do to your opponent in RvR zones, and a vanity slot for event items, and.....you get the idea."
Now I am sure many people are excited about a new live event, but I'm not sure non-RvR event would get much traction in players' minds.
On the other hand, 1.3.1's bug patch looks more interesting, as Andy (from Mythic) listed some preliminary patch notes about marauders, stating that some of their abilities "have stat contribution lower than intended". I think even with hundreds of bugs fixed, Mythic would still have hundreds more to go, but I do hope they can fix most of the career and combat bugs - a move that would do so much six or even three months before.