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Plagarism question

KurnDerakKurnDerak Registered User regular
edited June 2009 in Help / Advice Forum
I was just recently talking to my girlfriend about an idea I had for a possible book. Her response was along the lines of "That's been done, by Terry Goodkin in fact. That's plagarism." I simply said no, I came up with it more or less by myself. I was inspired to do it by a story she's writing, but wanting to change a lot of things (the basic theme is people who control the elements in both my story and hers).

I am assuming, that since I have never read a single Terry Goodkin book, nor have I even heard the plot of any of his books, that I am 100% not plagarising him. To be safe all I would have to do is make sure there are enough inherent differences (characters, plot points, setting, themes, etc...) that it would be easily classified as my own work and not stolen, correct? At this point I have more or less a few possible scenes in mind, and the basic plot.

As a side note, just to make sure this doesn't become an issue, this isn't about me winning the arguement. I consider myself right, but the arguement is over and I just want to make sure I'm right.

KurnDerak on

Posts

  • Smug DucklingSmug Duckling Registered User regular
    edited June 2009
    IANAL, but I'm pretty sure having a similar idea is not plagiarism at all as ideas are not protected. It would be plagiarism if you lifted specific passages straight from his work.

    Smug Duckling on
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  • ruzkinruzkin Registered User regular
    edited June 2009
    It's not plagiarism. You'd be hard pressed to find any fantasy novels that don't bear a passing resemblance to books that have come before. Remember, Terry Goodkind is just Tolkien + rape, just as Terry Brooks is just Tolkien - mordor.

    ruzkin on
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  • KurnDerakKurnDerak Registered User regular
    edited June 2009
    Thanks.

    Also... ruzkin, something about your explanation of Terry Goodkind books has simultaniously turned me off of them and made me laugh far too much.

    KurnDerak on
  • Hahnsoo1Hahnsoo1 Make Ready. We Hunt.Registered User regular
    edited June 2009
    Plagiarism is pretty much cut-and-paste with no footnotes or source. If the text is unchanged and you don't credit the work as someone else's, then that's plagiarism. But that's not the only thing that can get you into legal trouble.

    It may not be plagiarism, but it could be seen as a derivative work and therefore protected by copyright law. Then you would have to hope that no one (a person in a position to protect said original work) is around to sue you, if you manage to publish. If you don't publish, or only make a manuscript available for close friends and relatives, then it isn't a problem.

    For a recent example of this, J.D. Salinger is suing someone who made a derivative work/sequel of his "Catcher in the Rye". Even though the main character is 60 years older and not explicitly stated as the protagonist of "Catcher in the Rye", it's still going through the courts.

    Hahnsoo1 on
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  • RazielRaziel Registered User regular
    edited June 2009
    It's a sticky area. It's not plagiarism, and you're not taking Rodfro Gabbins into Domdroch to destroy the Bangle of Blasting, so I think you're good. Nothing new under the sun, and all that.

    Raziel on
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  • poshnialloposhniallo Registered User regular
    edited June 2009
    Plagiarism has to be a lot closer than most people think for it to be a legal issue. Compare some real-life examples - West Side Story and Romeo & Juliet. A Fistful of Dollars and Yojimbo. King Lear and Edward Bond's Lear. Hamlet and Rosencrantz & Guildenstern are Dead. Tolkien and most fantasy novels ever.

    As for the non-legal idea of plagiarism, inspiration takes many forms. There's a Stephen Donaldson book - Mordant's Need - which is basically 'King Lear makes good'. It's obvious that Donaldson was inspired by Shakespeare. But I wouldn't call it plagiarism.

    And anyway, 'People who control the elements', in fantasy and myth, is generic.

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  • GrimmyTOAGrimmyTOA Registered User regular
    edited June 2009
    poshniallo wrote: »
    Plagiarism has to be a lot closer than most people think for it to be a legal issue. Compare some real-life examples - West Side Story and Romeo & Juliet. A Fistful of Dollars and Yojimbo. King Lear and Edward Bond's Lear. Hamlet and Rosencrantz & Guildenstern are Dead.

    Well, the Shakespearean stuff stuff is all public domain now anyway, so you could write Hamlet the Gay Nazi and not get in trouble (legal trouble, anyway. I'm sure people would have some choice words for you.) This is why there are, for example, so many mystery novels still being written that feature Sherlock Holmes. The character is now public domain, and can be used by anyone for any purpose.

    As for living authors -- yeah, plagiarism is tricky. You can't really sue someone over a trope or idea or ability (otherwise Heroes, for example, would have to pay DC licensing fees for the speedster character -- and Marvel licensing fees for the telepath). You can get in trouble for stealing recognizable characters, names, places and so on.

    IANAL.

    GrimmyTOA on
  • ThanatosThanatos Registered User regular
    edited June 2009
    If your work could be described as anything remotely resembling something Terry Goodkind did, do us all a favor: forget about it, burn anything referencing it, and never think about or mention anything about it ever again.

    Thanatos on
  • KalTorakKalTorak One way or another, they all end up in the Undercity.Registered User regular
    edited June 2009
    Just to get it out there, there's a big difference between plagiarism out there in the legal/professional world and plagiarism in the academic world. If you're in school/college/law or grad school, and you write something that's not your own idea and you don't cite your sources, you can get pretty heavily fucked. Changing the wording usually won't matter- if it's an unoriginal idea, you have to have a footnote or an in-line citation telling where it came from.

    That said, I think you're fine.

    KalTorak on
  • DarkewolfeDarkewolfe Registered User regular
    edited June 2009
    Hahnsoo1 wrote: »
    For a recent example of this, J.D. Salinger is suing someone who made a derivative work/sequel of his "Catcher in the Rye". Even though the main character is 60 years older and not explicitly stated as the protagonist of "Catcher in the Rye", it's still going through the courts.

    While that IS going through the courts, it's 99% likely to stay there without actually achieving anything for Salinger. Parody protection is pretty expansive.
    Thanatos wrote: »
    If your work could be described as anything remotely resembling something Terry Goodkind did, do us all a favor: forget about it, burn anything referencing it, and never think about or mention anything about it ever again.

    Darkewolfe on
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  • CasualCasual Wiggle Wiggle Wiggle Flap Flap Flap Registered User regular
    edited June 2009
    Raziel wrote: »
    It's a sticky area. It's not plagiarism, and you're not taking Rodfro Gabbins into Domdroch to destroy the Bangle of Blasting, so I think you're good. Nothing new under the sun, and all that.

    I would read that book purely to see the term "Bangle of Blasting" as many times as I could. :lol:

    Casual on
  • SammyFSammyF Registered User regular
    edited June 2009
    Shortly thereafter, the Bangles of Blasting would become the new smash hit girl band of the RenFair circuit with their breakout single, "LARP Like A Tolkien."

    SammyF on
  • EggyToastEggyToast Jersey CityRegistered User regular
    edited June 2009
    Plagiarism is a form of academic dishonesty. It is taking someone else's work, copying it (or only modifying it slightly), and claiming it is yours. If your girlfriend were to take the chapter she recognizes from the Goodkind novel and just transcribe it into her book, that would be plagiarism.

    But no, you cannot lay claim to ideas, either for academic reasons or for copyright reasons. Just because someone else has the idea doesn't mean you can't do anything about it. Look at the entire catalog of rock music, a large percentage of which deals with very similar ideas, both musically and lyrically.

    So your girlfriend is wrong in that using someone else's idea is not plagiarism. Now, if she were to get an idea for a plot device or element of the story from somewhere -- say, she read American Gods by Gaiman and liked the idea of in-flesh gods -- then she would be dishonest to not put a little statement in the acknowledgements section of her book to say "I would like to thank Neil Gaiman for seeding the idea about blah blah blah." or whatever. Even then, she wouldn't HAVE to -- but someone might say she took the idea from Gaiman. If you say "Yeah of course I have influences, who doesn't?" then it's seen more as an expansion on a theme, rather than just using the same ideas.

    But yeah, there's nothing wrong with using similar ideas, themes, and so on. There's a reason so many novels have similar ideas, after all.

    But she is right in that she shoudln't use an idea that she associates with a Goodkind novel.

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  • Post BluePost Blue Redmond, WARegistered User regular
    edited June 2009
    Just be honest in your creativity, and ignore the fact that everyone'll have something that your story reminds them of, regardless of whether you've read said material.

    Post Blue on
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  • KurnDerakKurnDerak Registered User regular
    edited June 2009
    I think this thread has covered just about anything I think would need to be covered for this. It seems for the most part that what I thought was the case has been reaffirmed; plagarism bad, broad generic themes don't tend to fall into plagarism, be kind and give credit where credit is due, ect. ect...

    Thanks everyone.

    KurnDerak on
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