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Screwed by the state (updated)

HevachHevach Registered User regular
edited July 2009 in Help / Advice Forum
Ok, I got a ticket back in May. It was less than $50, defective equipmetn, I didn't even bother to care, just paid it.

Now, since then, several things have happened:

First off, on investigation, side lights don't qualify for defective equipment, only head and tail lights. Probably too late to do anything about this, I signed the ticket and took responsibility and paid it. Over, or so I assumed.

A week after paying the ticket, I recieved a bill from the state for a $200 driver responsibility fee, which the letter said is assessed on top of all tickets issued by non-state police. I paid this, it pissed me off, but I paid it, check dated 6/7, payment due 6/27.

Two weeks after mailing the first check, I recieved a second notice. I contacted the treasury and they said no payment had been recieved. I sent a second check and contacted the bank - it costs $25 to stop payment on a ticket, but I can get notification of when one clears for free, so I did that on the first check. For reference, second check was dated 6/20.

BOTH checks were cashed on 7/1, at the same bank, and cleared on 7/3, I got the call from the bank on the first check on 7/5. The first had been stamped in the endorse area 6/11, BEFORE the second notice, the second 6/30, the day before both checks were cashed. Both were paid to State of Michigan-SAC. At this point I contacted my bank (who started an investigation into the first check, and told me I'd have to wait up to 30 days to get a response), and the treasury department, who are doing likewise.

7/7, I recieve a final notice for nonpaymetn of the $200, this time with a nifty brocure about the Driver Responsibility fee. Defective equipment is NOT a qualifying offense for the fee. Nonetheless, my license was suspended on 7/4 (a week after the due date) for nonpayment.

My question, simply put: WTF?

Hevach on

Posts

  • DocDoc Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited July 2009
    Not living in Michigan, I have little to offer in way of advice besides this:

    When you see those signs in the DMV about how it's a felony to threaten a state employee with violence, it's because of shit like this.

    Did you mail in the checks? Do you have a receipt of some sort aside from the cashed check?

    Doc on
  • Captain VashCaptain Vash Registered User regular
    edited July 2009
    My advice would be to gather up all the paperwork you've got (reciepts, statement, whatever the county sent you, the pamphlet that says your infraction doesn't make the list of the fees) and head down to the court house of the county that issued the ticket and make your case in person.

    I should imagine you're entitled to at least full refund of the $200 check(s) if they've both been taken out of your account, and a free reinstatement of your license.

    Captain Vash on
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  • HevachHevach Registered User regular
    edited July 2009
    Only documentation I have regarding the checks is the checks themselves, but the state stamps quite a bit of information on the back of them, though, including the assessment number that connects them to the bill.

    Hevach on
  • Captain VashCaptain Vash Registered User regular
    edited July 2009
    If you can find the statutes online that show what fees are/aren't eligible for that charge, print those off and bring that with you.

    Seriously, just get all the information that corroborates your ordeal, and put it in the face of a county clerk. see what they'll do for you.

    Captain Vash on
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  • HevachHevach Registered User regular
    edited July 2009
    Got off the phone for the day. Results:

    Saginaw County Courthouse: We don't have jurisdiction over Driver Responsibility fees.

    Michigan Secretary of State: Until you resolve the dispute with the treasury we cannot reinstate your driver's license.

    Michigan Department of Treasury: Best I could manage for now is that they've put a hold on the charge so I won't be piling up all sorts of additional nonpayment penalties. They claim neither check was cashed by them, and suggested that they were stolen.

    Banks: Both checks were cashed properly by the treasury, and they got me a number to call for the bank that handled them, who confirmed. Both said it's just about impossible to fraudulently cash a check payable to a government agency - the "State of Michigan-SAC" on the check would have raised too many eyebrows if somebody had tried to cash it themselves. They gave me some information to write down and read back to the treasury people.

    Treasury again: "We'll look into that..." but the chucklefuck insists it's my fault and I'm still responsible for the $200, but that if what I say is true the first two checks will go to unclaimed property and I'll be able to try to reclaim them later.

    Traffic lawyer: "Oh, man, sounds like a good one," have a meeting tomorrow with him.

    Hevach on
  • JaysonFourJaysonFour Classy Monster Kitteh Registered User regular
    edited July 2009
    Using my awesome powers of Google-fu and due to the fact that I also live in MI, I'd believe someone stole those checks.

    Google gives up a link to the Department of Community Health, and a link to the Southwestern Athletic Conference (Michigan high school sports).

    JaysonFour on
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  • HevachHevach Registered User regular
    edited July 2009
    By what the bank gave me, they definitely weren't. They were cashed in a bulk delivery, which I'd imagine is normal, they have treasury information stamped on the back, and now I know they went into a treasury account and were endorsed by a treasury employee.

    Hevach on
  • JaysonFourJaysonFour Classy Monster Kitteh Registered User regular
    edited July 2009
    Ah. That's Pure Michigan right there for you. I love the place, couldn't be happier to live here, but sometimes I think the old tackling dummies that the U of M and Michigan State wear out find thier way into state government jobs.

    If you can produce the cancelled check and stuff, you should be okay.

    JaysonFour on
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  • DogDog Registered User, Administrator, Vanilla Staff admin
    edited July 2009
    I love the traffic lawyer statement.

    Unknown User on
  • ThanatosThanatos Registered User regular
    edited July 2009
    Hevach wrote: »
    Traffic lawyer: "Oh, man, sounds like a good one," have a meeting tomorrow with him.
    :lol:

    Sounds like this is your best bet.

    Thanatos on
  • SentrySentry Registered User regular
    edited July 2009
    It is nice to see the State of Michigan being proactive about their budget crisis though... you gotta give them that.

    Sentry on
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  • PracticalProblemSolverPracticalProblemSolver Registered User regular
    edited July 2009
    If I was a traffic lawyer I'd need new pants right now.

    PracticalProblemSolver on
  • MrMonroeMrMonroe passed out on the floor nowRegistered User regular
    edited July 2009
    If I was a traffic lawyer I'd need like half a bottle of asprin right now.

    You have all the relevant documents, especially those images of the checks endorsed by the treasury and your bank statements. Your lawyer should have this cleared up without too much trouble but it will take a fair amount of banging heads against the blank edifice of bureaucracy.

    MrMonroe on
  • ShadowfireShadowfire Vermont, in the middle of nowhereRegistered User regular
    edited July 2009
    MrMonroe wrote: »
    If I was a traffic lawyer I'd need like half a bottle of asprin right now.

    You have all the relevant documents, especially those images of the checks endorsed by the treasury and your bank statements. Your lawyer should have this cleared up without too much trouble but it will take a fair amount of banging heads against the blank edifice of bureaucracy.

    Yes. You might also ask the lawyer about possibly dropping a line to the local media. They love jumping all over shit like this.

    Shadowfire on
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  • HevachHevach Registered User regular
    edited July 2009
    Edit: I give up making my fixed quote coherent - JaysonFour is underestimating the standards U of M holds it's tackle dummies to.

    But hey, at least our last few pension-raider governors are gone. Things are great for the retirees that didn't flee to Florida years ago.

    Local media would probably be a lost cause, too. Nobody reads what's left of the Saginaw News anymore, they only print two days a week now. Half the local channels only rebroadcast chanel 5's news and after the way channel 5 covered the Eveland case in Grand Rapids, they'd most likely report that a "local man wishing to remain anonymous" is fighting to keep his car and license after refusing to pay a court-upheld traffic ticket. And if they cover it like they covered most of Mayor Stanley's stay in office, they'll say it was for the hit and run on 675 last month.

    Hevach on
  • ThanatosThanatos Registered User regular
    edited July 2009
    Man, what happened with this?

    Thanatos on
  • HevachHevach Registered User regular
    edited July 2009
    Sorry, didn't update because, so far, nothing's happened, I'm sitting on my thumbs waiting for either the state or bank to finish their investigations.

    My lawyer did suggest that I stop dealing with the state, even after the bank investigation is finished. He's sure the state's investigation will turn up nothing if they're even actually bothering, and he seems keen on letting the state haul me into court and/or arrest me, just to get the story in front of a judge. I'm not sure how I feel about that.

    Hevach on
  • ThanatosThanatos Registered User regular
    edited July 2009
    Hevach wrote: »
    Sorry, didn't update because, so far, nothing's happened, I'm sitting on my thumbs waiting for either the state or bank to finish their investigations.

    My lawyer did suggest that I stop dealing with the state, even after the bank investigation is finished. He's sure the state's investigation will turn up nothing if they're even actually bothering, and he seems keen on letting the state haul me into court and/or arrest me, just to get the story in front of a judge. I'm not sure how I feel about that.
    First off, he's a lawyer, so you should listen to his advice.

    Second off, being arrested/hauled into court is nothing; it's far from the end of the world, and as an objective, non-lawyer observer, his advice seems pretty sound.

    Thanatos on
  • xa52xa52 Registered User regular
    edited July 2009
    I would've said write a nasty letter (a polite nasty letter) with everything in the OP, send it to the agency sending you these notices, and copy your congressman, governor, both senators, and local media demanding all your goddamn money back.

    But at this point, just do what your lawyer tells you to do.

    xa52 on
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  • HevachHevach Registered User regular
    edited July 2009
    That's actually a good idea. My congressman's office is always good for comedy. I wrote them earlier this year about the proposed ban on nonnative pet species, and when I got the letter back they assured me that the elimination of the state's tire safety board will have no negative impact on the quality of american built automobiles, as the agency only duplicated regulation provided at the federal level.

    Probably won't accomplish shit, but hey, I'll post the reply if I get anything sufficiently funny.

    Hevach on
  • HevachHevach Registered User regular
    edited July 2009
    New update. The bank won't refund either check: Both were paid for the same state assessment number, which confirms I overpaid, but because I signed both checks and didn't stop payment on either, I'll have to take it up with the state, not the bank. The state sent me a notice that if I don't pay by the end of August, a warrant may be sought for my arrest. Lawyer took the letter, told me the only reason I should contact them at this point is to tell them to piss up a rope and hope they have me arrested sooner so it doesn't interfere with some travel plans I had in September.

    Hevach on
  • MrMonroeMrMonroe passed out on the floor nowRegistered User regular
    edited July 2009
    the arrest may just be a catch-and-release thing

    I can't imagine they're going to need to actually haul you downtown and take prints

    Really they could get by just having notice served for you to show up in court on the relevant date. Your lawyer sounds like he has it under control.

    MrMonroe on
  • HevachHevach Registered User regular
    edited July 2009
    Michigan doesn't do that as far as I'm aware. My neighbor didn't pay a ticket smaller than this (drivers responsibility fees didn't come into play with that, either), and after the 2 month limit, they came to his house on a Friday to arrest him. Bail was just under $600, and since they did it on a Friday, he was in until Monday when a judge was available.

    Edit: Should add, even if that isn't what they do in every case, the lawyer did tell me to either make arrangements to cover bail (which he's confident I can recover afterwards), or be prepared to spend the night in jail. Since I know what day the state will seek the warrant, hopefully I can be a step ahead and find out when they actually get it, take the next day off, and turn myself in.

    Hevach on
  • DarkewolfeDarkewolfe Registered User regular
    edited July 2009
    Hevach wrote: »
    Michigan doesn't do that as far as I'm aware. My neighbor didn't pay a ticket smaller than this (drivers responsibility fees didn't come into play with that, either), and after the 2 month limit, they came to his house on a Friday to arrest him. Bail was just under $600, and since they did it on a Friday, he was in until Monday when a judge was available.

    Buah?

    Man, they've really got their priorities in order!

    Darkewolfe on
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  • ArtreusArtreus I'm a wizard And that looks fucked upRegistered User regular
    edited July 2009
    Just so I understand this. You got a ticket for something you should not have gotten a ticket for in the first place, and on top of that they assessed a $200 fine. The first check was actually cashed but they sent you a letter saying you did not pay it. So you sent a second $200 check. They were both cashed.

    You have now paid $400+ for something that was not even illegal, and they are still sending you notices that you haven't paid and will be arrested for non payment?

    That is incredibly bizarre and I hope you get this worked out. Like everyone else said, listen to the lawyer. I think dealing with somebody in person is the only way any of this will be resolves, as it is easy for everyone else to just pass it on to someone else over the phone.

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  • HevachHevach Registered User regular
    edited July 2009
    It's pretty surreal at my end, too, but it really comes down to something pretty simple - the state treasury department didn't connect a check with an assessment number.

    When checks come in, they're entered under their assessment number and then they're all cashed in one big pile. If somebody gets the number wrong or if a check is passed over, it still gets cashed but the assessment still says unpaid.

    I've heard of it happening, but involving state income tax, and the documentation is robust enough to sort things out easily there. With this, there are no forms going back and forth, not even any signatures except the ones on my checks. The paper trail pretty much starts with the letter they sent me and ends with the check I sent back.

    Hevach on
  • HevachHevach Registered User regular
    edited July 2009
    New update: The state determined that the fee was paid once (they still haven't figured out that they cashed two checks). I'm still out $400 currently, but I'm not going to get arrested. Meeting with the lawyer tomorrow to find out what plan B is now that I'm not getting a free day in court at the end of August.

    Hevach on
  • DmanDman Registered User regular
    edited July 2009
    Hevach wrote: »
    New update: The state determined that the fee was paid once (they still haven't figured out that they cashed two checks). I'm still out $400 currently, but I'm not going to get arrested. Meeting with the lawyer tomorrow to find out what plan B is now that I'm not getting a free day in court at the end of August.

    This whole ordeal sucked balls for you but I would pay my lawyer whatever i owed him (hopefully very little) and cut my losses. It's just not worth going to court over $200. If you honestly think you can get $400+money for lost work time or something it might be worth it but I just don't see it happening.

    Dman on
  • HevachHevach Registered User regular
    edited July 2009
    It's $400 plus 5 points on my license plus $600 to the lawyer. No lost work, but still, not $200. The lawyer's specialty is getting tickets dismissed for being incorrectly issued - he's pretty good at forcing the city or state to pay legal fees on charges that aren't outright fraud. Had the state arrested me, I wouldn't have had to sue, and I may have had recourse against the state for the arrest as well as the charges.

    Hevach on
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