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Pickup artists (related to Monday's front-page convo)
Spiffy McBang
Registered User regular
Registered User regular
Linky: http://community.feministing.com/2009/08/updated-george-sodini-and-the.html
Right off the bat you might see the site name and say, "Ah christ, they're not going to be neutral at all." And that's true. In fact, I'm not a huge fan of the linked post myself- as I say in the comments there, the points are correct, but it's very negative, unnecessarily so.
But if the back-and-forth between Tycho and Gabe about pickup artists and their methods versus feminine wiles and whatnot got you thinking even a little bit, I encourage you to follow the link and read both the post and the comments. Please try not to jump on the couple of people who appear to overreact- I haven't been going to that site very long and I've still seen several instances where guys jump in and get all defensive when there's no need, and the regulars there are understandably tired of it. Read it over, get a feel for how the members of that site view the issue; it may well be considerably different from what you're used to hearing from others or thinking yourself.
Also, although the George Sodini case is only mentioned in passing (despite it being in the title), think about the size of the leap it takes to go from simply frustrated to murderously so. Think about some of the uberdorks you might know who obsess over finding a girlfriend but just can't figure out how to do it. A lot of them remain perfectly respectful, but some start getting angry at the women because they can't determine how they themselves are failing. And our culture, while enormously less accepting of violence against women than it once was, still often fails to treat it as a serious problem. Sodini was a batshit psycho, no doubt. But this is a case where it's possible to piece together where his frayed logic stemmed from. In those instances, we need to be aware that the same result could strike others, and if we know someone potentially like that, try to help them and steer them away from bitterness.
(If you don't know who George Sodini is, he's the guy that shot several women, killing three, in a fitness club near Pittsburgh. If that doesn't ring a bell, Google it.)
Hopefully this doesn't bomb off the first page in ten minutes. I'll be interested to see what people think, if this goes anywhere.
Right off the bat you might see the site name and say, "Ah christ, they're not going to be neutral at all." And that's true. In fact, I'm not a huge fan of the linked post myself- as I say in the comments there, the points are correct, but it's very negative, unnecessarily so.
But if the back-and-forth between Tycho and Gabe about pickup artists and their methods versus feminine wiles and whatnot got you thinking even a little bit, I encourage you to follow the link and read both the post and the comments. Please try not to jump on the couple of people who appear to overreact- I haven't been going to that site very long and I've still seen several instances where guys jump in and get all defensive when there's no need, and the regulars there are understandably tired of it. Read it over, get a feel for how the members of that site view the issue; it may well be considerably different from what you're used to hearing from others or thinking yourself.
Also, although the George Sodini case is only mentioned in passing (despite it being in the title), think about the size of the leap it takes to go from simply frustrated to murderously so. Think about some of the uberdorks you might know who obsess over finding a girlfriend but just can't figure out how to do it. A lot of them remain perfectly respectful, but some start getting angry at the women because they can't determine how they themselves are failing. And our culture, while enormously less accepting of violence against women than it once was, still often fails to treat it as a serious problem. Sodini was a batshit psycho, no doubt. But this is a case where it's possible to piece together where his frayed logic stemmed from. In those instances, we need to be aware that the same result could strike others, and if we know someone potentially like that, try to help them and steer them away from bitterness.
(If you don't know who George Sodini is, he's the guy that shot several women, killing three, in a fitness club near Pittsburgh. If that doesn't ring a bell, Google it.)
Hopefully this doesn't bomb off the first page in ten minutes. I'll be interested to see what people think, if this goes anywhere.
Spiffy McBang on
Posts
Do any of them regard women as human beings on the same level as men, whose right to choose is both respected and desired?
Just going to quote this.
While not every story is a story about promoting confidence, social skills, and improved well being they do exist.
Men don't know what its like to be a woman, and women don't know what its like to be a man. Trans-gendered people are really on the forefront of figuring this shit out, but I don't know how many are here.
This would be a great thread to go into the dating perceptions of both genders.
bullshit
its a two way street of nervousness
Yes.
Right
Because I said that "banging chicks is an inalienable right"
Or implied it
Or something
Instead of you strawmanning my arguement that "good guys with no self-confidence deserve to have a loving relationship instead of torturing themselves with the pretense that they're worthless human beings"
I mean seriously what the fuck?
also, why should this scariness be confined to sexual relationships? Are they the only ones worth talking about?
agh. I'm not trying to minimise how some of you clearly feel, but you have to realise that you're not any more or less hard done by than any other person in a similar position of social isolation.
That's great (no sarcasm intended at all) but I'm surprised people who thought that would have anything to do with people who describe themselves as Pick Up Artists.
Yes but one side is a 12-lane superhighway of nervousness and the other is one lane of anxiety
they're very much an exception though, and more importantly they're still charging for stuff you can learn for free
I won't get into it but PUA is a newer label that gained popularity. The whole thing started off under lots of different names.
Essentially I'd say that if I was to be out socially like everyone else but not approach women i'd stay single. While if I was a women and went out the same amount I'd at least have people come talk to me. Maybe i'm simplifying it to much. Again i'd like to stress this is regarding meeting people and in relation to my social setting. If its different where you live maybe I need to move...
If you make that claim you are in fantasy land.
I think charging for stuff that's free has been the name of the game for years.
Seriously. You guys need to stop that shit this instant.
OK why does someone deserve a relationship? Why does the world owe people things all the sudden?
I don't think anyone has it easier (in this particular area anyway), but they do have it different.
And before you leap in, try not to forget that society exists.
And I'm not even talking about sexual relationships
Like, at all
I honestly don't care about one-night stands, nor bagging women, nor any of that stupid sexist bullshit (and considering that I'm in the military, in which the women are generally...to put it kindly...loose, it's not from lack of options); I care about and actual deep, meaningful relationship founded on mutual trust and respect. Sex is just a bonus
The Game is an awesome book, and pretty much the most honest takedown of the PUA culture that I know of.
The mistake men make is looking at it from the perspective that if whichever women they find utterly desireable were to make a move on them, they'd go for it. It seems easy if you presuppose the conclusion.
You might be surprised at how many men think of their female friends sexually. This isn't to say we all want to bang our friends and are only interested in being friends with people we'd bang, but based on the number of guys I've talked to about this, it is absolutely something that we've thought about. Therefor, nearly every relationship outside of purely professional and family is colored to some degree by sexuality.
I'm not talking about personality nor intelligence
Cultural expectation, however, places the onus on men to usually do most of the heavy lifting to initiate a relationship
Which one.
There are some pretty significant cultural differences. Not that anyone has it easier but often the challenges faced are often different in nature.
life is hard for everyone.
Eh it helps some people.
But from what I understand those people also generally get into for a reason other than having as much sex as possible in the shortest amount of time.
You read the book and all but yeah it is a pretty decent depiction of the whole scene. Thankfully it doesn't glamorize things too much and it reveals just how fucked up a lot of those dudes are.
Especially Mystery. Sad sad mystery.
However men with low-to-no self esteem believe the exact opposite- they don't deserve any relationship of any type with the opposite sex, which is just as irrational
You think women aren't the same? You're so charmingly naive
*while subtly checking out your ass. Seriously, dude, "you might be surprised"? Could you be any more condescending?
that doesn't mean they are easier, that the anxiety is magically lesser or the stress reduced.
At all.
How the fuck would you like it if you had to wait all the fucking time when you liked someone.
I think I'd find it intolerable.
Don't go off on a defensive "But but its different" tangent. Sure it's different. This doesn't make women be less nervous or have it any easier, which is what was originally said.
There's no room for woe is mens in these differences. It's woe is everyone, equally.
This is absofuckinglutely a grass is greener scenario. There are a ton of weird creepy people out there, even more so on-line. I've read messages my female friends get on OKC, it's ridiculous.
Whats also ridiculous is sending messages to dozens of women to see if you connect over something you liked in their profile (for conversation, not fucking), and to get no responses.
Hell, most men I know will even respond to messages from the women they have zero interest just because they know what its like to be constantly ignored.
Who else? Well, who knows. But assuming that such a relationship is deserved tends to make people very frustrated and angry when nobody they meet wants to be in this relationship - which in turn makes the frustrated individual even more angry, etc. At which point they're usually fair game for the PUA sleazebags to make some money off of who tell them how to claim what they supposedly deserve.
A much healthier way to look at it is for someone to make oneself into the sort of person others would want to be in a relationship with.
Stop it.
Just because you can't relate doesn't mean that difficulties don't exist. My goodness don't be so self absorbed.
And besides that even in the technological future there's still the expectation that men should generally initiate contact- which is maddening
Of course, none of this is an excuse for males with low self-esteem to not even put themselves out there, but to argue that the experience isn't easier for females as opposed to males is, in my opinion, naive
Yes. I think women hate sex. I'm glad my point was made...
/sarcasm
I said "you might be surprised" based on the number of women I've had this conversation with who were very surprised to not only hear this, but to have it confirmed by the other men in the room. I have not done a professional amount of research, no.
So if you feel the same way, then maybe I misunderstood your comment about sexual relationships (since you seem to be agreeing that all relationships are colored by sex).
So because you would like more messages you make the assumption that having more messages must be preferable for all people?
This is what you are doing. You should stop.