As for non-slave beginnings, I was on a campaign where one of the PC's was the trader class and the rest were just a standard party. We were trying to start our own minor trading house. Gives a plenty good mix of politics, espionage, travel, and of course being ambushed while moving between city states.
So, I stripped down 2 of my old Thri-kreen models and I'm currently using a knife to get some of the paint thats really caked in off. I bet these things are lead and I'm getting flakes of it on my myself.
So, I stripped down 2 of my old Thri-kreen models and I'm currently using a knife to get some of the paint thats really caked in off. I bet these things are lead and I'm getting flakes of it on my myself.
Chew on one of the bases. If you start feeling like doing family members and lighting them on fire, it's probably lead.
On second thought, don't. But they're still probably lead, if they're the old Ral Partha ones I'm thinking of.
Yeah, those are the only Darksun minis as far as I know. The "1991" on the bottom is a very good sign that its lead. I'm pretty sure most companies didn't switch over to pewter until the mid 90s.
And, looking at the other minis via the interwebs....they are really good looking for that era.
Well, I've gone and done it. 4e rulebooks and filling in gaps in my old Dark Sun collection.
I also think I'm going to start with writing a campaign where the PCs start off dead as an introduction. Related; did any of the sourcebooks tackle the subject of reincarnation and the Grey?
Well, I've gone and done it. 4e rulebooks and filling in gaps in my old Dark Sun collection.
I also think I'm going to start with writing a campaign where the PCs start off dead as an introduction. Related; did any of the sourcebooks tackle the subject of reincarnation and the Grey?
I don't believe so.
As far as my own interpretation, reincarnation didn't exist. If you died, the only way to return was as some sort of undead abomination. I felt this fit the setting best. As far as the official line? Don't think there was one.
Yeah, I was generally of the same mind. I'd like to do something odd and completely epic this time around, though, and I'm enamored of the "why the fuck do you remember being dead?" subplot.
Of course, with psionics rampant, having weird memories wouldn't be completely out of line...
It is required that there exist more discussion pertinent to Dark Sun.
So, as I resurrect this thread, let us discuss Athasian undead. There's two undead forms that are pretty much fancy Liches: Kaisharga and T'liz. I always thought the latter was rather redundant, but I now think there's room for both. The Kaisharga is created via a ritual, and need not even cast the spells itself, as the majority of them are the servants of the Dragon. As such, they can be any class. A T'liz does not seem to be created by intent, but is rather a powerful Defiler who rises from the dead to continue his path to power.
Well, if it didn't get nuked, I'll make my OWN post-apocalyptic setting up as I go along. Who's with me! ::storms out to a weak fanfare
My DM style doesn't really work well with established settings. I prefer just to slowly build it up around the players and keep the good stuff for the next campaign.
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UtsanomikoBros before DoesRollin' in the thlayRegistered Userregular
edited September 2009
'Nuked' is pretty cliche and generic if you ask me, whereas Dark Sun builds upon the theme of nature-draining quite thoroughly, especially in its classes. This is probably the first setting I've wanted to learn in-depth and run; everything else has always seemed either too close to the baseline of visuals and established fantasy tropes to bother researching or it's Spelljammer and it's goofy.
Speaking of classes, anyone want to wager what means they'll use to feature different forms of arcane and divine powers? I'd wager for now that Clerics (and presumably all divine classes) will rely on new class features to represent the split between Elemental clerics and Templars, although perhaps Templars would require a new class if they were that distinct in 2e. The elements might suffice as a broad selection of Channel Divinity powers and elemental damage/resist types.
I'd be surprised if Defiling magic was included as a PC option right out of the player's guide, but maybe I don't know enough about how easy/hard it is to have Defiler wizards active in mixed parties in Athas. They sound pretty reviled though. I wouldn't be surprised if they stuck with Preservers and used a new class feature for their base powers.
Primal power classes are looking pretty robust in this edition, I don't know what they could possibly need to cover the nature base of Dark Sun PCs. Martial classes might just get some flavored feat and weapon options, especially the stuff found in the online gladiator articles.
That's my conjecture, somebody else correct my assumptions and elaborate.
I like how the classes are all tweaked to the setting, that's a definite benefit.
I just don't care for the "nature-draining" angle. Until there are no more nukes IRL, post-nuclear apocalypse will not be a cliche. Draining is an over-time thing, that's just depressing. Nothing is more depressing than accelerated entropy. Whereas, nuclear holocaust is a sudden thing with lots of lingering aftereffects, which is terrifying. It makes a whole new paradigm and the story is how we build back up and learn from our mistakes.
I'd be surprised if Defiling magic was included as a PC option right out of the player's guide, but maybe I don't know enough about how easy/hard it is to have Defiler wizards active in mixed parties in Athas. They sound pretty reviled though. I wouldn't be surprised if they stuck with Preservers and used a new class feature for their base powers..
All wizards are equally reviled with a few exceptions.
Defilers can be tolerated as servants of the Sorcerer Kings. This is generally not a good deal for the defiler, as they are destroyed if they grow too powerful. Some Templars are Defilers, too.
Elves do not care if a mage is a Defiler or Preserver, as long as their loyalty is to the tribe.
Druids and Clerics might tolerate a preserver, but would never tolerate a defiler.
Most people consider wizards to be kill on sight. Or run away, get a mob, and then return to kill on sight.
And as a note, Defiling is the "default" wizard path in Dark Sun. Preservers are a minority of a minority, as it is harder to do, most people don't even know it exists, and its only reward is avoiding the inherently evil nature of defiling magic. In 2e, Defilers gain levels nearly twice as fast, but get penalties to their charisma as applied NPC reaction, as the stronger they get, the stronger the aura of death and evil surrounding them becomes.
Nuked implies a post-apocalyptic type world, of which Dark Sun really isn't. While it is desolate and ravaged it wasn't a one time thing in the recent past. Most all Athasians have grown up in the ravaged world and only have old stories about how everything use to be green.
Dark Sun really isn't an established setting in the traditional sense. It most definitely is not medieval fantasy, high fantasy, or anything even remotely close to Forgotten Realms, Greyhawk, Dragonlance, or even Eberron. It really does have its own flair, and while it is probably a distant cousin to a post-apocalyptic world it definitely is able to hold its own. Your local library may have the Prism Pentad series of books, they would be a good read to get you started to see if its something you are interested in running.
Kaisharga vs T'liz
T'liz seem like a mix between a ghost, lich and vampire. The whole dying before finishing something of a ghost (or wraith?), regen/level drain/sunlight weakness/holy place avoidance/scheming of a vamp, and the raw magical power and minions of a lich.
Kaisharga are the oddball undead of Athas because they are made that way, not raised or via a ritual or circumstance. It's basically like slapping a psionic lich template on top of any class, which is totally sick when added to a high level gladiator. Oh look, I can fight you bare handed, do 1d10+str bonus per hit save vs paralysis, have a THAC0 at or below 0, 3+ attacks per round, 200+ hps, and immunity to a crapload of powerful spells.
But yeah, you could basically run either the same way you would a classic lich, especially if the Kaisharga has a base class that was a spellcaster or psionicist. And if you have the Guide to Liches you can find even more ways to tweak them and their powers.
Well, it comes out in a year apparently, so I'm putting it on the 4E back burner while I come up with a post-apocalyptic setting. I think I'll start a PbP and encourage everybody to declare as much as possible. I wish proper Psionics was out, though. That always seemed to fit the apocalypse better than magic.
Well, it comes out in a year apparently, so I'm putting it on the 4E back burner while I come up with a post-apocalyptic setting. I think I'll start a PbP and encourage everybody to declare as much as possible. I wish proper Psionics was out, though. That always seemed to fit the apocalypse better than magic.
Indeed, Psionics are more central to Dark Sun than arcane magic is. Its just that arcane mages are so cool in Dark Sun that many people find them more interesting to discuss. Dark Sun is actually probably the only setting that I'd ever really want to roleplay a pure mage. Has quite a bit to do with the fact that my favourite archetype in most settings, the paladin, does not exist there, too.
But yeah, the majority of "magic" items in Dark Sun are more likely to be psionic in nature, and nearly every kind of creature has some sort of innate psionic ability.
T'liz seem like a mix between a ghost, lich and vampire. The whole dying before finishing something of a ghost (or wraith?), regen/level drain/sunlight weakness/holy place avoidance/scheming of a vamp, and the raw magical power and minions of a lich.
Kaisharga are the oddball undead of Athas because they are made that way, not raised or via a ritual or circumstance. It's basically like slapping a psionic lich template on top of any class, which is totally sick when added to a high level gladiator. Oh look, I can fight you bare handed, do 1d10+str bonus per hit save vs paralysis, have a THAC0 at or below 0, 3+ attacks per round, 200+ hps, and immunity to a crapload of powerful spells.
But yeah, you could basically run either the same way you would a classic lich, especially if the Kaisharga has a base class that was a spellcaster or psionicist. And if you have the Guide to Liches you can find even more ways to tweak them and their powers.
I get the impression that the Kaisharga are created via ritual, but its not one that they themselves need necessarily initiate.
Quite possibly the coolest thing about Undead in Dark Sun in my perspective is the random powers/weaknesses. I love the idea that the Undead are cursed by their nature and cannot do some things that mortals take for granted (enter a home without permission, cross running water). Like a Vampire, except everyone knows their weakness, in this, they are not dependent upon undead type.
I like the Psion preview that's in the Character Creator. I've always preferred the idea of psionics to the idea of magic, but the devil is in the execution.
The whole 'everyone in DS has a wild talent' was pretty cool, but 2nd ed psionics in general was terrible. Power checks were an abysmal idea, slowed the game down, and really crippled psionicists compared to their spellcaster bretheren. Attack/defense powers were total crap. Even with an 18 in your prime req, a decent number of average power level abilities had a -3 to their check, meaning you had a 25% chance of failing every time you tried and used it. Thus even my level 20 psionicist, which would be lucky to have a 20 in Int or Wis, still has a 15% chance of failing a check on a power that he's had since level 3. Granted I'll have a shitload of PSPs to keep trying, but I can only use one power a turn, and with a decent chance of power not working I'm not able to contribue as effectively to my team as a spellcaster can. I really hope they don't go anywhere near this route in 4E.
The psion (preview in the Character Builder) just has power points that he can use to beef up his at-wills every once in a while. That's the only fancy thing I'm seeing, which I like because it's not complicated.
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UtsanomikoBros before DoesRollin' in the thlayRegistered Userregular
edited September 2009
Dark Sun isn't even post-apocalyptic, it technically falls under the 'Dying Earth' fantasy. But I'm not going to debate who likes or dislikes what genre for not being another genre or whatever.
Anyway, 4th Edition has ditched % casting failure like a bad habit. Knowing how other setting books have handled things (like FR subraces or Eberron dragonmarks) I would presume wild psionic talents would show up as feats. We'll also be getting a multitude of Psionic classes (likely the full role range) in PHB3 several months before Dark Sun, which ought to provide enough options for those types of PCs.
I would still picture Defilers being regulated to NPCs, even if Preservers are in the same boat in many situations. The linchpin here would be their interraction with druids and other nature-worshippers. D&D 4e will have no less than 5-6 complete Primal classes by Dark Sun's release. Did Dark Sun originally have suggestions as to how to deal with druids and Defilers in the same party? I doubt 4e's mindset of inclusiveness would suggest rejecting PCs that don't mesh, and thus Arcane classes will probably rely on Preserving magic unless allowed by the DM.
They did say they were wishing to make major changes to 4th Edition's guidelines and stretch the system in order to make Dark Sun a distinct setting, though. So maybe we will see player options that make conflicting parties. I wonder what classes could ve excluded by default through the player's guide in that case.
Marital and Primal classes would be fine, Psionics I imagine should be fine, Divine may just need Elemental vs Templar options (I can picture Paladins and Avengers as armored/unarmored sorcerer-devoted Templar agents, and Elemental Invokers at the very least.). Magic seems so rare and unique I couldn't comment on the reflavoring needed for Sorcerers, Bards, or Warlocks (especially), let alone including Swordmages and Artificers from other settings (although they can fall under the same principles of magic study that Wizards do, unlike the charisma-based casters).
Dark Sun isn't even post-apocalyptic, it technically falls under the 'Dying Earth' fantasy. But I'm not going to debate who likes or dislikes what genre for not being another genre or whatever.
Got it. I had apparently misunderstood the setting.
"Did Dark Sun originally have suggestions as to how to deal with druids and Defilers in the same party?"
Uh, one would slit the others throat the first chance they got? You really can't get any more opposed characters in a party than these two. Even an undead hunter and a necromancer could find common ground before these two would. I don't know why you'd have to have special rules for inclusion of a defiler. If a PC wants to be a defiler he'll either get killed in short order or the rest of the party will be evil and not care.
Posts
Yeah, its not very expensive either. Hmm....
Oh man, that sucks. Its not like the stuff is worth all that much either, so you're not exactly getting much gas from it....
Luckily this was back when it was still a buck a gallon.
They tried to bury us. They didn't know that we were seeds. 2018 Midterms. Get your shit together.
"Then last year, that roadtrip to Tijuana set me back a signed box set of my first edition..."
Chew on one of the bases. If you start feeling like doing family members and lighting them on fire, it's probably lead.
On second thought, don't. But they're still probably lead, if they're the old Ral Partha ones I'm thinking of.
And, looking at the other minis via the interwebs....they are really good looking for that era.
edit: go go internets! http://www.geocities.com/danach.geo/miniatures.html I totally had the Dragon and the jozhal set too. Wow. I wonder what happened to those.
Crodlu riders are the shit, though. Jozhal are something I had forgotten even existed, but they are cool.
I also think I'm going to start with writing a campaign where the PCs start off dead as an introduction. Related; did any of the sourcebooks tackle the subject of reincarnation and the Grey?
I don't believe so.
As far as my own interpretation, reincarnation didn't exist. If you died, the only way to return was as some sort of undead abomination. I felt this fit the setting best. As far as the official line? Don't think there was one.
Of course, with psionics rampant, having weird memories wouldn't be completely out of line...
"Go up, thou bald head." -2 Kings 2:23
The memory of THAC0 is hazy in my mind and causes much pain.
It's roll > THAC0-AC, and at high levels involved subtracting negative numbers. Not everyone is blessed with our level of mathematical know-how.
"Go up, thou bald head." -2 Kings 2:23
And the DM needs to know EVERYTHING ELSE, and then some.
"Go up, thou bald head." -2 Kings 2:23
Saving throws are all on a single table.
"Go up, thou bald head." -2 Kings 2:23
Is this meant to be an ironic statement?
It's like RA-I-AIN!:whistle:
"Go up, thou bald head." -2 Kings 2:23
So, as I resurrect this thread, let us discuss Athasian undead. There's two undead forms that are pretty much fancy Liches: Kaisharga and T'liz. I always thought the latter was rather redundant, but I now think there's room for both. The Kaisharga is created via a ritual, and need not even cast the spells itself, as the majority of them are the servants of the Dragon. As such, they can be any class. A T'liz does not seem to be created by intent, but is rather a powerful Defiler who rises from the dead to continue his path to power.
Not really as accurate a statement as to say that it got drained.
My DM style doesn't really work well with established settings. I prefer just to slowly build it up around the players and keep the good stuff for the next campaign.
Speaking of classes, anyone want to wager what means they'll use to feature different forms of arcane and divine powers? I'd wager for now that Clerics (and presumably all divine classes) will rely on new class features to represent the split between Elemental clerics and Templars, although perhaps Templars would require a new class if they were that distinct in 2e. The elements might suffice as a broad selection of Channel Divinity powers and elemental damage/resist types.
I'd be surprised if Defiling magic was included as a PC option right out of the player's guide, but maybe I don't know enough about how easy/hard it is to have Defiler wizards active in mixed parties in Athas. They sound pretty reviled though. I wouldn't be surprised if they stuck with Preservers and used a new class feature for their base powers.
Primal power classes are looking pretty robust in this edition, I don't know what they could possibly need to cover the nature base of Dark Sun PCs. Martial classes might just get some flavored feat and weapon options, especially the stuff found in the online gladiator articles.
That's my conjecture, somebody else correct my assumptions and elaborate.
I just don't care for the "nature-draining" angle. Until there are no more nukes IRL, post-nuclear apocalypse will not be a cliche. Draining is an over-time thing, that's just depressing. Nothing is more depressing than accelerated entropy. Whereas, nuclear holocaust is a sudden thing with lots of lingering aftereffects, which is terrifying. It makes a whole new paradigm and the story is how we build back up and learn from our mistakes.
All wizards are equally reviled with a few exceptions.
Defilers can be tolerated as servants of the Sorcerer Kings. This is generally not a good deal for the defiler, as they are destroyed if they grow too powerful. Some Templars are Defilers, too.
Elves do not care if a mage is a Defiler or Preserver, as long as their loyalty is to the tribe.
Druids and Clerics might tolerate a preserver, but would never tolerate a defiler.
Most people consider wizards to be kill on sight. Or run away, get a mob, and then return to kill on sight.
And as a note, Defiling is the "default" wizard path in Dark Sun. Preservers are a minority of a minority, as it is harder to do, most people don't even know it exists, and its only reward is avoiding the inherently evil nature of defiling magic. In 2e, Defilers gain levels nearly twice as fast, but get penalties to their charisma as applied NPC reaction, as the stronger they get, the stronger the aura of death and evil surrounding them becomes.
Thats kind of the theme of Dark Sun. It is a dead world that is at best in statis, if not outright decay.
Dark Sun really isn't an established setting in the traditional sense. It most definitely is not medieval fantasy, high fantasy, or anything even remotely close to Forgotten Realms, Greyhawk, Dragonlance, or even Eberron. It really does have its own flair, and while it is probably a distant cousin to a post-apocalyptic world it definitely is able to hold its own. Your local library may have the Prism Pentad series of books, they would be a good read to get you started to see if its something you are interested in running.
Kaisharga vs T'liz
T'liz seem like a mix between a ghost, lich and vampire. The whole dying before finishing something of a ghost (or wraith?), regen/level drain/sunlight weakness/holy place avoidance/scheming of a vamp, and the raw magical power and minions of a lich.
Kaisharga are the oddball undead of Athas because they are made that way, not raised or via a ritual or circumstance. It's basically like slapping a psionic lich template on top of any class, which is totally sick when added to a high level gladiator. Oh look, I can fight you bare handed, do 1d10+str bonus per hit save vs paralysis, have a THAC0 at or below 0, 3+ attacks per round, 200+ hps, and immunity to a crapload of powerful spells.
But yeah, you could basically run either the same way you would a classic lich, especially if the Kaisharga has a base class that was a spellcaster or psionicist. And if you have the Guide to Liches you can find even more ways to tweak them and their powers.
Indeed, Psionics are more central to Dark Sun than arcane magic is. Its just that arcane mages are so cool in Dark Sun that many people find them more interesting to discuss. Dark Sun is actually probably the only setting that I'd ever really want to roleplay a pure mage. Has quite a bit to do with the fact that my favourite archetype in most settings, the paladin, does not exist there, too.
But yeah, the majority of "magic" items in Dark Sun are more likely to be psionic in nature, and nearly every kind of creature has some sort of innate psionic ability.
I get the impression that the Kaisharga are created via ritual, but its not one that they themselves need necessarily initiate.
Quite possibly the coolest thing about Undead in Dark Sun in my perspective is the random powers/weaknesses. I love the idea that the Undead are cursed by their nature and cannot do some things that mortals take for granted (enter a home without permission, cross running water). Like a Vampire, except everyone knows their weakness, in this, they are not dependent upon undead type.
Anyway, 4th Edition has ditched % casting failure like a bad habit. Knowing how other setting books have handled things (like FR subraces or Eberron dragonmarks) I would presume wild psionic talents would show up as feats. We'll also be getting a multitude of Psionic classes (likely the full role range) in PHB3 several months before Dark Sun, which ought to provide enough options for those types of PCs.
I would still picture Defilers being regulated to NPCs, even if Preservers are in the same boat in many situations. The linchpin here would be their interraction with druids and other nature-worshippers. D&D 4e will have no less than 5-6 complete Primal classes by Dark Sun's release. Did Dark Sun originally have suggestions as to how to deal with druids and Defilers in the same party? I doubt 4e's mindset of inclusiveness would suggest rejecting PCs that don't mesh, and thus Arcane classes will probably rely on Preserving magic unless allowed by the DM.
They did say they were wishing to make major changes to 4th Edition's guidelines and stretch the system in order to make Dark Sun a distinct setting, though. So maybe we will see player options that make conflicting parties. I wonder what classes could ve excluded by default through the player's guide in that case.
Marital and Primal classes would be fine, Psionics I imagine should be fine, Divine may just need Elemental vs Templar options (I can picture Paladins and Avengers as armored/unarmored sorcerer-devoted Templar agents, and Elemental Invokers at the very least.). Magic seems so rare and unique I couldn't comment on the reflavoring needed for Sorcerers, Bards, or Warlocks (especially), let alone including Swordmages and Artificers from other settings (although they can fall under the same principles of magic study that Wizards do, unlike the charisma-based casters).
Come on we got months to speculate, ready set go.
Got it. I had apparently misunderstood the setting.
Uh, one would slit the others throat the first chance they got? You really can't get any more opposed characters in a party than these two. Even an undead hunter and a necromancer could find common ground before these two would. I don't know why you'd have to have special rules for inclusion of a defiler. If a PC wants to be a defiler he'll either get killed in short order or the rest of the party will be evil and not care.