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determinism

13468911

Posts

  • bongibongi regular
    edited August 2009
    flabbergasting!

    bongi on
  • ProbadProbad Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    Jigrah wrote: »
    Probad wrote: »
    You should marry her. It's not rape if she's your wife.

    Working on it, shes a bit out of my league financially but maybe I can just charm her out of high class living.

    A modern day love story.

    Probad on
  • TamTam Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    does it gast your flab

    Tam on
  • TossrockTossrock too weird to live too rare to dieRegistered User regular
    edited August 2009
    oh man, that is a pretty good one bongi

    Tam wrote: »
    Tossrock wrote: »
    Tossrock wrote: »
    Kind of depressing, but at least it absolves me of all personal responsibility!

    I am interested in your newsletter, for I too wish to be absolved of all personal responsibilty.

    Where do I send the cheque to and how do I get started?

    For just 3 easy payments of all your money, you too can be free of the burden of choice!

    Your continued payment of Entropy qualifies you as a premium gold member of Life, signing you up for a chance to win FABULOUS PRIZES!

    smooches

    Tossrock on
    sig.png
  • bongibongi regular
    edited August 2009
    Tam wrote: »
    does it gast your flab
    it flabs it hither and thither and to and fro

    it flabs my gast all about town

    bongi on
  • TamTam Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    how uncouth
    Tossrock wrote: »
    oh man, that is a pretty good one bongi

    Tam wrote: »
    Tossrock wrote: »
    Tossrock wrote: »
    Kind of depressing, but at least it absolves me of all personal responsibility!

    I am interested in your newsletter, for I too wish to be absolved of all personal responsibilty.

    Where do I send the cheque to and how do I get started?

    For just 3 easy payments of all your money, you too can be free of the burden of choice!

    Your continued payment of Entropy qualifies you as a premium gold member of Life, signing you up for a chance to win FABULOUS PRIZES!

    smooches

    <3

    Tam on
  • AMP'dAMP'd Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    I feel like actually participating in this thread will get me shouted at

    Probably by Shank, who will just say "when you get older then you will know that now you are WRONG"

    AMP'd on
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • JigrahJigrah Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    Tossrock wrote: »
    Jigrah wrote: »
    Tossrock wrote: »
    by the age of ten I'd independently arrived at the concept of Laplace's daemon (only realized through the conceit of a super-fast computer) and from that strict determinism. Later, I realized that such a computer would be impossible because to store information about the position/velocity of every particle, the computer would need to have more atoms than exist in the universe; sort of a variation on the "map the size of the country itself" thought problem, and concluded that (my conception of) Laplace's demon was impossible.

    When I found out that the argument was a known thing, I was sort of disappointed, but also sort of relieved.

    Personally, I'd like to believe that there is some quantum magic happening in the brain and consciousness that allows free will, but as an empiricist, I have to conclude that the universe is, on the whole, at best almost entirely deterministic. Kind of depressing, but at least it absolves me of all personal responsibility!

    And that's the story of my relationship with determinism.

    Why does being an empiricist lead you to being deterministic?

    because evidence shows that with increasing refinements in precision of measurement, increasingly accurate predictions can be made about the future

    sure, you can waffle about Heisenberg uncertainty and quantum decoherence, but on a macro scale, ie, the world we live in, classical, predictable physical processes rule our existence. With a sufficiently powerful computer and sufficiently good input data, you could make highly accurate predictions of any physical process, which, as far as science can tell, includes human brain functioning. It's not as strong as strict determinism, but it's pretty close.

    I can't see that way at all. Just look at Alexander the Great's conquests, or any number of battles that were so close yet really shaped the world we live in.

    Although you did say the universe as a whole, which I guess I would agree with being a determinist.

    Nevermind, I guess I can see that.

    Jigrah on
  • L|amaL|ama Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    Tossrock wrote: »
    Jigrah wrote: »
    Tossrock wrote: »
    by the age of ten I'd independently arrived at the concept of Laplace's daemon (only realized through the conceit of a super-fast computer) and from that strict determinism. Later, I realized that such a computer would be impossible because to store information about the position/velocity of every particle, the computer would need to have more atoms than exist in the universe; sort of a variation on the "map the size of the country itself" thought problem, and concluded that (my conception of) Laplace's demon was impossible.

    When I found out that the argument was a known thing, I was sort of disappointed, but also sort of relieved.

    Personally, I'd like to believe that there is some quantum magic happening in the brain and consciousness that allows free will, but as an empiricist, I have to conclude that the universe is, on the whole, at best almost entirely deterministic. Kind of depressing, but at least it absolves me of all personal responsibility!

    And that's the story of my relationship with determinism.

    Why does being an empiricist lead you to being deterministic?

    because evidence shows that with increasing refinements in precision of measurement, increasingly accurate predictions can be made about the future

    sure, you can waffle about Heisenberg uncertainty and quantum decoherence, but on a macro scale, ie, the world we live in, classical, predictable physical processes rule our existence. With a sufficiently powerful computer and sufficiently good input data, you could make highly accurate predictions of any physical process, which, as far as science can tell, includes human brain functioning. It's not as strong as strict determinism, but it's pretty close.

    This is pretty much the same as my thoughts about it. It sucks, I don't like determinism, but I can't think of any reasonable way to explain it away.

    Jigrah wrote: »
    Probad wrote: »
    You should marry her. It's not rape if she's your wife.

    Working on it, shes a bit out of my league financially but maybe I can just charm her out of high class living.

    Just get her real drunk, seems to have worked for you in the past. Maybe she'll need some roofies too this time.

    L|ama on
  • TenTen Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    I don't get why people think life has to have no meaning if determinism is true; it's not as if it actually takes away our choices or makes them less meaningful.

    Ten on
  • L|amaL|ama Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    Jigrah wrote: »
    Tossrock wrote: »
    Jigrah wrote: »
    Tossrock wrote: »
    by the age of ten I'd independently arrived at the concept of Laplace's daemon (only realized through the conceit of a super-fast computer) and from that strict determinism. Later, I realized that such a computer would be impossible because to store information about the position/velocity of every particle, the computer would need to have more atoms than exist in the universe; sort of a variation on the "map the size of the country itself" thought problem, and concluded that (my conception of) Laplace's demon was impossible.

    When I found out that the argument was a known thing, I was sort of disappointed, but also sort of relieved.

    Personally, I'd like to believe that there is some quantum magic happening in the brain and consciousness that allows free will, but as an empiricist, I have to conclude that the universe is, on the whole, at best almost entirely deterministic. Kind of depressing, but at least it absolves me of all personal responsibility!

    And that's the story of my relationship with determinism.

    Why does being an empiricist lead you to being deterministic?

    because evidence shows that with increasing refinements in precision of measurement, increasingly accurate predictions can be made about the future

    sure, you can waffle about Heisenberg uncertainty and quantum decoherence, but on a macro scale, ie, the world we live in, classical, predictable physical processes rule our existence. With a sufficiently powerful computer and sufficiently good input data, you could make highly accurate predictions of any physical process, which, as far as science can tell, includes human brain functioning. It's not as strong as strict determinism, but it's pretty close.

    I can't see that way at all. Just look at Alexander the Great's conquests, or any number of battles that were so close yet really shaped the world we live in.

    How on earth does that contradict Toss's ideas?

    L|ama on
  • JigrahJigrah Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    Probad wrote: »
    Jigrah wrote: »
    Probad wrote: »
    You should marry her. It's not rape if she's your wife.

    Working on it, shes a bit out of my league financially but maybe I can just charm her out of high class living.

    A modern day love story.

    We could turn it into a romantic comedy. Take my fair lady, reverse it and bam we've got a hip new movie and thousands of dollars.

    Jigrah on
  • Dr.FunkensteinDr.Funkenstein Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    Jigrah wrote: »
    Probad wrote: »
    Jigrah wrote: »
    Probad wrote: »
    You should marry her. It's not rape if she's your wife.

    Working on it, shes a bit out of my league financially but maybe I can just charm her out of high class living.

    A modern day love story.

    We could turn it into a romantic comedy. Take my fair lady, reverse it and bam we've got a hip new movie and thousands of dollars.

    I think it'd work better as a Sitcom

    How I Molested Your Mother

    Dr.Funkenstein on
    TERRORSQUADSIG.gif
  • JigrahJigrah Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    L|ama wrote: »
    Jigrah wrote: »
    Tossrock wrote: »
    Jigrah wrote: »
    Tossrock wrote: »
    by the age of ten I'd independently arrived at the concept of Laplace's daemon (only realized through the conceit of a super-fast computer) and from that strict determinism. Later, I realized that such a computer would be impossible because to store information about the position/velocity of every particle, the computer would need to have more atoms than exist in the universe; sort of a variation on the "map the size of the country itself" thought problem, and concluded that (my conception of) Laplace's demon was impossible.

    When I found out that the argument was a known thing, I was sort of disappointed, but also sort of relieved.

    Personally, I'd like to believe that there is some quantum magic happening in the brain and consciousness that allows free will, but as an empiricist, I have to conclude that the universe is, on the whole, at best almost entirely deterministic. Kind of depressing, but at least it absolves me of all personal responsibility!

    And that's the story of my relationship with determinism.

    Why does being an empiricist lead you to being deterministic?

    because evidence shows that with increasing refinements in precision of measurement, increasingly accurate predictions can be made about the future

    sure, you can waffle about Heisenberg uncertainty and quantum decoherence, but on a macro scale, ie, the world we live in, classical, predictable physical processes rule our existence. With a sufficiently powerful computer and sufficiently good input data, you could make highly accurate predictions of any physical process, which, as far as science can tell, includes human brain functioning. It's not as strong as strict determinism, but it's pretty close.

    I can't see that way at all. Just look at Alexander the Great's conquests, or any number of battles that were so close yet really shaped the world we live in.

    How on earth does that contradict Toss's ideas?

    It might be my misunderstanding of what determinism is. I take it to mean that we as individuals really don't have much influence or effect on the world we live in.

    Jigrah on
  • Mr. Henry BemisMr. Henry Bemis God is love Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    Jigrah wrote: »
    L|ama wrote: »
    Jigrah wrote: »
    Tossrock wrote: »
    Jigrah wrote: »
    Tossrock wrote: »
    by the age of ten I'd independently arrived at the concept of Laplace's daemon (only realized through the conceit of a super-fast computer) and from that strict determinism. Later, I realized that such a computer would be impossible because to store information about the position/velocity of every particle, the computer would need to have more atoms than exist in the universe; sort of a variation on the "map the size of the country itself" thought problem, and concluded that (my conception of) Laplace's demon was impossible.

    When I found out that the argument was a known thing, I was sort of disappointed, but also sort of relieved.

    Personally, I'd like to believe that there is some quantum magic happening in the brain and consciousness that allows free will, but as an empiricist, I have to conclude that the universe is, on the whole, at best almost entirely deterministic. Kind of depressing, but at least it absolves me of all personal responsibility!

    And that's the story of my relationship with determinism.

    Why does being an empiricist lead you to being deterministic?

    because evidence shows that with increasing refinements in precision of measurement, increasingly accurate predictions can be made about the future

    sure, you can waffle about Heisenberg uncertainty and quantum decoherence, but on a macro scale, ie, the world we live in, classical, predictable physical processes rule our existence. With a sufficiently powerful computer and sufficiently good input data, you could make highly accurate predictions of any physical process, which, as far as science can tell, includes human brain functioning. It's not as strong as strict determinism, but it's pretty close.

    I can't see that way at all. Just look at Alexander the Great's conquests, or any number of battles that were so close yet really shaped the world we live in.

    How on earth does that contradict Toss's ideas?

    It might be my misunderstanding of what determinism is. I take it to mean that we as individuals really don't have much influence or effect on the world we live in.
    it means the future is fixed, events play out exactly the same no matter what, and free will doesn't exist

    strict determinism at any rate

    Mr. Henry Bemis on
    Nothing is true; Everything is permitted
  • JigrahJigrah Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    Jigrah wrote: »
    Probad wrote: »
    Jigrah wrote: »
    Probad wrote: »
    You should marry her. It's not rape if she's your wife.

    Working on it, shes a bit out of my league financially but maybe I can just charm her out of high class living.

    A modern day love story.

    We could turn it into a romantic comedy. Take my fair lady, reverse it and bam we've got a hip new movie and thousands of dollars.

    I think it'd work better as a Sitcom

    How I Molested Your Mother

    That title makes it seem more like a cinemax late nite special.

    Jigrah on
  • Charles KinboteCharles Kinbote Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    Umaro wrote: »
    I was an atheist and now I'm spiritual

    Is this a joke post or real post?

    half and half

    I did used to be atheist and I am no longer atheist at all

    but I wouldn't actually describe myself as "spiritual"
    I was an atheist and now I'm spiritual

    christ you're stupid

    Charles Kinbote on
  • L|amaL|ama Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    I take it to mean we have an effect, but everything is purely based on a chain of cause and effect since the start of the universe. Our effect is the sum of everything that caused us, if you will, and as such our concept of free will can't change it at all. Everything that happens was already going to happen, and was predetermined.

    L|ama on
  • TossrockTossrock too weird to live too rare to dieRegistered User regular
    edited August 2009
    Jigrah wrote: »
    It might be my misunderstanding of what determinism is. I take it to mean that we as individuals really don't have much influence or effect on the world we live in.

    yeah, that's a flawed understanding. determinism doesn't say that we don't effect the world, it just says that those effects are the immutable consequence of their antecedents. pretty much, Alexander the Great had a huge effect on history, yes, but he did so because of the circumstances of his life and the chemical composition of his placenta (etc) rather than any special magic inside him. Determinism says if you knew to the atomic scale those circumstances and chemicals, you could draw a map with the limits of his empire before his mother reached the second trimester.

    Tossrock on
    sig.png
  • Grey GhostGrey Ghost Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    Oh man

    Let me have a few more beers and I'll jump right into this conversation with opinions I've made up on the spot

    Grey Ghost on
  • NikolaiNikolai SSSSSSSSSSS Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    It's my life goal to molest Bemis.

    Nikolai on
    xXNXOA7.png?1
  • Mr. Henry BemisMr. Henry Bemis God is love Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    achievement unlocked

    Mr. Henry Bemis on
    Nothing is true; Everything is permitted
  • unintentionalunintentional smelly Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    what I've never understood about determinists:

    lets say there is determinism? who the fuck cares? it's predetermined, so you may as well be predetermined to not care.

    and if there isn't? you just cared about something that didn't exist!

    unintentional on
  • NikolaiNikolai SSSSSSSSSSS Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    He's such a dainty little fellow.

    Nikolai on
    xXNXOA7.png?1
  • L|amaL|ama Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    what I've never understood about determinists:

    lets say there is determinism? who the fuck cares? it's predetermined, so you may as well be predetermined to not care.

    and if there isn't? you just cared about something that didn't exist!

    That's pretty dumb. It's an interesting idea, but it's not one that should affect the way you live your life in any way.

    L|ama on
  • JigrahJigrah Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    Tossrock wrote: »
    Jigrah wrote: »
    It might be my misunderstanding of what determinism is. I take it to mean that we as individuals really don't have much influence or effect on the world we live in.

    yeah, that's a flawed understanding. determinism doesn't say that we don't effect the world, it just says that those effects are the immutable consequence of their antecedents. pretty much, Alexander the Great had a huge effect on history, yes, but he did so because of the circumstances of his life and the chemical composition of his placenta (etc) rather than any special magic inside him. Determinism says if you knew to the atomic scale those circumstances and chemicals, you could draw a map with the limits of his empire before his mother reached the second trimester.

    Okay, I see your link between empiricism and determinism now. Still don't think they are mutually inclusive but I get it.

    Jigrah on
  • Mr. Henry BemisMr. Henry Bemis God is love Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    nikolai let's hang out and drink smoothies

    Mr. Henry Bemis on
    Nothing is true; Everything is permitted
  • NikolaiNikolai SSSSSSSSSSS Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    'Kay I'll wear my tightest pants.

    Nikolai on
    xXNXOA7.png?1
  • TossrockTossrock too weird to live too rare to dieRegistered User regular
    edited August 2009
    what I've never understood about determinists:

    lets say there is determinism? who the fuck cares? it's predetermined, so you may as well be predetermined to not care.

    and if there isn't? you just cared about something that didn't exist!

    philosphy too i mean we already got laws and shit, spending all day thinking about ethics or whatever gay bullshit ain't helping anyone

    theoretical physics, why not

    i mean, string theory? how we ever going to test that, and how is knowing that we're made of 10th dimensional vibrating strings relevant to everyday life

    oh duh, art

    who needs art, all it is is a bunch of pretentious jackasses wasting time when we've already got cameras, sheesh

    Tossrock on
    sig.png
  • T. J. Nutty Nub T. J. Nutty Nub Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    Tossrock wrote: »
    Jigrah wrote: »
    It might be my misunderstanding of what determinism is. I take it to mean that we as individuals really don't have much influence or effect on the world we live in.

    yeah, that's a flawed understanding. determinism doesn't say that we don't effect the world, it just says that those effects are the immutable consequence of their antecedents. pretty much, Alexander the Great had a huge effect on history, yes, but he did so because of the circumstances of his life and the chemical composition of his placenta (etc) rather than any special magic inside him. Determinism says if you knew to the atomic scale those circumstances and chemicals, you could draw a map with the limits of his empire before his mother reached the second trimester.

    I actually used this argument to disprove the theory of a multiverse to myself once

    T. J. Nutty Nub on
  • TossrockTossrock too weird to live too rare to dieRegistered User regular
    edited August 2009
    Tossrock wrote: »
    Jigrah wrote: »
    It might be my misunderstanding of what determinism is. I take it to mean that we as individuals really don't have much influence or effect on the world we live in.

    yeah, that's a flawed understanding. determinism doesn't say that we don't effect the world, it just says that those effects are the immutable consequence of their antecedents. pretty much, Alexander the Great had a huge effect on history, yes, but he did so because of the circumstances of his life and the chemical composition of his placenta (etc) rather than any special magic inside him. Determinism says if you knew to the atomic scale those circumstances and chemicals, you could draw a map with the limits of his empire before his mother reached the second trimester.

    I actually used this argument to disprove the theory of a multiverse to myself once

    smoke less weed

    Tossrock on
    sig.png
  • L|amaL|ama Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    Tossrock wrote: »
    Jigrah wrote: »
    It might be my misunderstanding of what determinism is. I take it to mean that we as individuals really don't have much influence or effect on the world we live in.

    yeah, that's a flawed understanding. determinism doesn't say that we don't effect the world, it just says that those effects are the immutable consequence of their antecedents. pretty much, Alexander the Great had a huge effect on history, yes, but he did so because of the circumstances of his life and the chemical composition of his placenta (etc) rather than any special magic inside him. Determinism says if you knew to the atomic scale those circumstances and chemicals, you could draw a map with the limits of his empire before his mother reached the second trimester.

    I actually used this argument to disprove the theory of a multiverse to myself once

    explain

    alternate universes can't really interact with each other, so I don't see how you could prove or disprove them.

    L|ama on
  • TossrockTossrock too weird to live too rare to dieRegistered User regular
    edited August 2009
    just kidding, 420 smoke weed everyday

    Tossrock on
    sig.png
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] regular
    edited August 2009
    The user and all related content has been deleted.

    [Deleted User] on
  • T. J. Nutty Nub T. J. Nutty Nub Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    L|ama wrote: »
    Tossrock wrote: »
    Jigrah wrote: »
    It might be my misunderstanding of what determinism is. I take it to mean that we as individuals really don't have much influence or effect on the world we live in.

    yeah, that's a flawed understanding. determinism doesn't say that we don't effect the world, it just says that those effects are the immutable consequence of their antecedents. pretty much, Alexander the Great had a huge effect on history, yes, but he did so because of the circumstances of his life and the chemical composition of his placenta (etc) rather than any special magic inside him. Determinism says if you knew to the atomic scale those circumstances and chemicals, you could draw a map with the limits of his empire before his mother reached the second trimester.

    I actually used this argument to disprove the theory of a multiverse to myself once

    explain

    alternate universes can't really interact with each other, so I don't see how you could prove or disprove them.

    You know what, fuck you

    Posting that made me realize I had a hole in it

    I was assuming each universe started at the same exact state, identical to each other

    but now I realize that is a horrible assumption

    so to summarize, fuck you

    I have to go sit on my rock and think about this for awhile

    T. J. Nutty Nub on
  • Grey GhostGrey Ghost Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    L|ama that was the most effective destruction of another person's argument I've ever seen, and you weren't even trying to do that

    Grey Ghost on
  • unintentionalunintentional smelly Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    why can't you have multiple identical universes

    unintentional on
  • MarshmallowMarshmallow Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    Got a bunch of universes where this little bit of hydrogen went that way instead of this way when it all began.

    Also, beginning of the universe theories are fun times. The religious ones are way more entertaining than the scientific ones though.

    Marshmallow on
  • T. J. Nutty Nub T. J. Nutty Nub Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    why can't you have multiple identical universes

    Shut up, Shut up!

    T. J. Nutty Nub on
  • DichotomyDichotomy Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    why can't you have multiple identical universes

    because God hates redundancies

    Dichotomy on
    0BnD8l3.gif
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