Its funny, because in the last thread on this here we had a couple of people insisting that men were too stupid to take a pill or too selfish to risk their own hormones.
I may have gotten a little snippy about that.
Yeah, the idea that men can't be bothered to do something as simple as take a pill every day is pretty fucking insulting and hilariously ludicrous.
Of course, we've had threads where people swear up and down that 9/11 was an inside job, so I guess anything's possible.
Well, it was. You can't exactly steer a plane from the outside, unless you're superman...
Its funny, because in the last thread on this here we had a couple of people insisting that men were too stupid to take a pill or too selfish to risk their own hormones.
I may have gotten a little snippy about that.
I already take a pill every morning (thyroid hormone). If male birth control was safe, effective, and affordable and my wife and I weren't trying to have a baby I wouldn't have any problem popping 2 pills every day instead of 1. There isn't some magic gene in women (that I know of) that makes them easier to condition to take a pill once a day.
Imagine if men could take pills reliably on a daily basis. They could take all manner of things. Vitamins, nutritional supplements... Why, a whole industry might spring up around this idea. They'd be selling these daily supplement pills in stores before you knew it!
Its funny, because in the last thread on this here we had a couple of people insisting that men were too stupid to take a pill or too selfish to risk their own hormones.
I may have gotten a little snippy about that.
I already take a pill every morning (thyroid hormone). If male birth control was safe, effective, and affordable and my wife and I weren't trying to have a baby I wouldn't have any problem popping 2 pills every day instead of 1. There isn't some magic gene in women (that I know of) that makes them easier to condition to take a pill once a day.
Imagine if men could take pills reliably on a daily basis. They could take all manner of things. Vitamins, nutritional supplements... Why, a whole industry might spring up around this idea. They'd be selling these daily supplement pills in stores before you knew it!
The wife and I were abstinent throughout our relationship. I can't say that I recommend it for everybody, honestly. It takes a lot of self control.
But in the end, it was worth it to me. :P
Any input on what made it worthwhile? And were you both abstinent before that relationship?
Initially I was pretty dead set against it, and when she brought it up I had to take a day or two to think about it. But when I asked her why she decided to go abstinent, she told me that all the guys she dated tried to get into her pants, and when she refused they got all hissy and left and never called back.
My relationships before this one were generally all long distance so nothing really came of them.
And I'd say it was worth it because the wedding night was pretty amazing. Plus I'd gone like 20 some years without sex before that, I could hold off a few more years. But yeah I think that the wedding night was amazing, and now we're more emotionally connected than when we first met if that makes sense.
But, like I said, I don't recommend it for everyone. It's tough. It really is.
Wait. She didn't tell the dudes that she was a no sex before the wedding night girl, and she got pissed at the guys?
If not fucking is your thing, then by all means. But you better be up front about that little detail. I don't mean to get all up in your wife's thing, but putting it as "the dude's tried to get in her pants", welp, of course they wanted to fuck her. Sex is a key part of any romantic relationship, in the eyes of most people.
Nope she told me at the start of the relationship, just as she did to the guys. They said "okay" and that was that. But then they would get all hot and heavy and she told them to stop and they got all pissed off.
And besides that's not the point of the thing, so please don't get hung up on the little things. That was indeed the tl;dr'ed of the entire thing.
I'm basically with Robman on this. I mean, another important part of a relationship is communication. Most people these days aren't thinking "if I like this girl I'll marry her in the next 6 months" they're thinking "well, if we're still together in a few years then I'd consider it".
EDIT: urahonky - there's a difference between abstinence and being against any intimacy whatsoever. But we're never going to get enough information on the interwebs before someone takes off in a huff.
I think it also depends a lot on what marriage means to you.
Abstinence until marriage doesn't make any sense to me, personally, but I consider marriage to be a legal formality that allows me to visit my husband in the hospital and gets us discounts on car insurance. We made our commitments to each other well before we got married and I know other people that never made commitments to each other despite getting married.
I can understand being abstinent until you and your partner are committed to each other. I don't get why signing a legal document that has nothing to do with personal commitments affects when you start having sex.
And wedding night sex is awesome no matter what :P
And generally relationships should grow and you should get emotionally closer to your spouse over time, so I don't see how either of your last two points are relevant at all to a discussion of abstinence.
Do you think you wouldn't still be growing closer to your wife if you had sex earlier?
Do you think your wedding night sex would have sucked if it hadn't been your first time?
(Honest questions, not snarky, I'm curious if those statements were part of your rationale for being abstinent or if they were just sort of extra comments showing that relationships can grow and be wonderful even when they are also abstinent for a period of time)
Kistra on
Animal Crossing: City Folk Lissa in Filmore 3179-9580-0076
I'm basically with Robman on this. I mean, another important part of a relationship is communication. Most people these days aren't thinking "if I like this girl I'll marry her in the next 6 months" they're thinking "well, if we're still together in a few years then I'd consider it".
Which is inherently wrong in my eyes, but I'm not the kinda guy to have a short term relationship. *shrug* I'm not condemning anyone for NOT being abstinent.
Nope she told me at the start of the relationship, just as she did to the guys. They said "okay" and that was that. But then they would get all hot and heavy and she told them to stop and they got all pissed off.
And besides that's not the point of the thing, so please don't get hung up on the little things. That was indeed the tl;dr'ed of the entire thing.
That's fair. And I'm pretty sure we are talking about your leetle things BAZINGA.
I think it also depends a lot on what marriage means to you.
Abstinence until marriage doesn't make any sense to me, personally, but I consider marriage to be a legal formality that allows me to visit my husband in the hospital and gets us discounts on car insurance. We made our commitments to each other well before we got married and I know other people that never made commitments to each other despite getting married.
I can understand being abstinent until you and your partner are committed to each other. I don't get why signing a legal document that has nothing to do with personal commitments affects when you start having sex.
And wedding night sex is awesome no matter what :P
And generally relationships should grow and you should get emotionally closer to your spouse over time, so I don't see how either of your last two points are relevant at all to a discussion of abstinence.
Do you think you wouldn't still be growing closer to your wife if you had sex earlier?
Do you think your wedding night sex would have sucked if it hadn't been your first time?
(Honest questions, not snarky, I'm curious if those statements were part of your rationale for being abstinent or if they were just sort of extra comments showing that relationships can grow and be wonderful even when they are also abstinent for a period of time)
Eh. I'm just giving reasons. We were both virgins, and finally married so it seemed extra special that night. We also didn't live with each other until we got married so the emotional closeness could have something to do with that.
But really it's not very everyone. In fact, I'd wager that it probably wouldn't work so well for a majority of people. Sex is great and all, but it shouldn't be the only good thing in the relationship, it should be a bonus. Well, to me anyway. I don't really care how people feel about sex. I have a friend who sleeps with whomever whenever, and I really don't care.
Nope she told me at the start of the relationship, just as she did to the guys. They said "okay" and that was that. But then they would get all hot and heavy and she told them to stop and they got all pissed off.
And besides that's not the point of the thing, so please don't get hung up on the little things. That was indeed the tl;dr'ed of the entire thing.
That's fair. And I'm pretty sure we are talking about your leetle things BAZINGA.
I'm basically with Robman on this. I mean, another important part of a relationship is communication. Most people these days aren't thinking "if I like this girl I'll marry her in the next 6 months" they're thinking "well, if we're still together in a few years then I'd consider it".
Which is inherently wrong in my eyes, but I'm not the kinda guy to have a short term relationship. *shrug* I'm not condemning anyone for NOT being abstinent.
See, this annoys me. You say this because...? What do you consider a short term relationship? I was in a relationship which lasted about 6-7 months. This was because it just definitely wasn't working, and I was ultimately unhappy with it. And, relevantly, sexual compatibility was a fairly important reason there (although it was amongst a bunch of other things).
EDIT: I don't see a rational way to define yourself as the type of guy who has X term relationships beyond "I only have 1 night stands" or not.
I'm basically with Robman on this. I mean, another important part of a relationship is communication. Most people these days aren't thinking "if I like this girl I'll marry her in the next 6 months" they're thinking "well, if we're still together in a few years then I'd consider it".
Which is inherently wrong in my eyes, but I'm not the kinda guy to have a short term relationship. *shrug* I'm not condemning anyone for NOT being abstinent.
See, this annoys. You say this because...I don't know. What do you consider a short term relationship? I was in a relationship which lasted about 6-7 months. This was because it just definitely wasn't working, and I was ultimately unhappy with it. And, relevantly, sexual compatibility was a fairly important reason there (although it was amongst a bunch of other things).
Did you go into the relationship wanting it to end early? I know plenty of folks that can't have more than a 6 month relationship because they want more women in their lives. Which is okay if it's not working out, you know?
But now this is more of a relationship thread than abstinence ELM. :P
e: Sorry, yeah the definition "short term relationship" sounds bad. That's my fault. I meant someone who gets into a relationship with full knowledge that it's not going to work out in the end, but stays in it for teh secks. (Which is a small minority of guys that I know)
I personally could never deal with a single sexual partner for life. I mean that's like only drinking coke your entire life, and gazing longlingly at sprite, dr pepper, pepsi and A+W root beer. Monovaginitis is a scary disease.
Robman on
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syndalisGetting ClassyOn the WallRegistered User, Loves Apple Productsregular
People who take vitamin pills and nutritional supplements are usually dumb-dumbs though.
Emphasis mine before some internet doctor gets angry at me.
Are you dissing my Flintstones Kids?
multivitamins are a very good idea for people who are cutting out certain things from their diet, like red meat, but still need some of the good things it provides.
In fact, certain lifestyle choices (like being a vegetarian / vegan) are downright impossible without supplements.
syndalis on
SW-4158-3990-6116
Let's play Mario Kart or something...
I think it also depends a lot on what marriage means to you.
Abstinence until marriage doesn't make any sense to me, personally, but I consider marriage to be a legal formality that allows me to visit my husband in the hospital and gets us discounts on car insurance. We made our commitments to each other well before we got married and I know other people that never made commitments to each other despite getting married.
I can understand being abstinent until you and your partner are committed to each other. I don't get why signing a legal document that has nothing to do with personal commitments affects when you start having sex.
And wedding night sex is awesome no matter what :P
And generally relationships should grow and you should get emotionally closer to your spouse over time, so I don't see how either of your last two points are relevant at all to a discussion of abstinence.
Do you think you wouldn't still be growing closer to your wife if you had sex earlier?
Do you think your wedding night sex would have sucked if it hadn't been your first time?
(Honest questions, not snarky, I'm curious if those statements were part of your rationale for being abstinent or if they were just sort of extra comments showing that relationships can grow and be wonderful even when they are also abstinent for a period of time)
Eh. I'm just giving reasons. We were both virgins, and finally married so it seemed extra special that night. We also didn't live with each other until we got married so the emotional closeness could have something to do with that.
But really it's not very everyone. In fact, I'd wager that it probably wouldn't work so well for a majority of people. Sex is great and all, but it shouldn't be the only good thing in the relationship, it should be a bonus. Well, to me anyway. I don't really care how people feel about sex. I have a friend who sleeps with whomever whenever, and I really don't care.
Wait, you didn't live together on top of only dating for a your? Please tell me you were high school sweethearts so we can get the holy trinity of divorce.
I'm basically with Robman on this. I mean, another important part of a relationship is communication. Most people these days aren't thinking "if I like this girl I'll marry her in the next 6 months" they're thinking "well, if we're still together in a few years then I'd consider it".
Which is inherently wrong in my eyes, but I'm not the kinda guy to have a short term relationship. *shrug* I'm not condemning anyone for NOT being abstinent.
Did you always have a really solid understanding of what you were looking for in a partner?
I don't think most people intend to have short term relationships. It just takes most people time to figure out what traits they need in a partner and what traits they can't stand in a partner.
For me, that learning process took the form of dating men for several months and then figuring out that no matter how much we liked each other certain incompatibilities just weren't going to work long term.
EDIT: you clarified while I was writing this post... you don't need to respond again. I don't think I know anyone that actually does that though. Just one or two people who are really really good at fooling themselves that it will work out this time with this guy who is exactly like the last 10 guys that it didn't work out with.
Kistra on
Animal Crossing: City Folk Lissa in Filmore 3179-9580-0076
I think it also depends a lot on what marriage means to you.
Abstinence until marriage doesn't make any sense to me, personally, but I consider marriage to be a legal formality that allows me to visit my husband in the hospital and gets us discounts on car insurance. We made our commitments to each other well before we got married and I know other people that never made commitments to each other despite getting married.
I can understand being abstinent until you and your partner are committed to each other. I don't get why signing a legal document that has nothing to do with personal commitments affects when you start having sex.
And wedding night sex is awesome no matter what :P
And generally relationships should grow and you should get emotionally closer to your spouse over time, so I don't see how either of your last two points are relevant at all to a discussion of abstinence.
Do you think you wouldn't still be growing closer to your wife if you had sex earlier?
Do you think your wedding night sex would have sucked if it hadn't been your first time?
(Honest questions, not snarky, I'm curious if those statements were part of your rationale for being abstinent or if they were just sort of extra comments showing that relationships can grow and be wonderful even when they are also abstinent for a period of time)
Eh. I'm just giving reasons. We were both virgins, and finally married so it seemed extra special that night. We also didn't live with each other until we got married so the emotional closeness could have something to do with that.
But really it's not very everyone. In fact, I'd wager that it probably wouldn't work so well for a majority of people. Sex is great and all, but it shouldn't be the only good thing in the relationship, it should be a bonus. Well, to me anyway. I don't really care how people feel about sex. I have a friend who sleeps with whomever whenever, and I really don't care.
Wait, you didn't live together on top of only dating for a your? Please tell me you were high school sweethearts so we can get the holy trinity of divorce.
Nope. Met her when I was 21, fell in love, asked her to marry me a few years later, and we got married in June.
Glad to know that you think it'll end in divorce though.
People who take vitamin pills and nutritional supplements are usually dumb-dumbs though.
Emphasis mine before some internet doctor gets angry at me.
Are you dissing my Flintstones Kids?
multivitamins are a very good idea for people who are cutting out certain things from their diet, like red meat, but still need some of the good things it provides.
In fact, certain lifestyle choices (like being a vegetarian / vegan) are downright impossible without supplements.
Sure, if you can find a brand that has consistent quality control and doesn't use cheap, shitty ingredients.
And as long as you take the multivitamin with a meal, so you don't piss out the pill ten minutes later.
I'm basically with Robman on this. I mean, another important part of a relationship is communication. Most people these days aren't thinking "if I like this girl I'll marry her in the next 6 months" they're thinking "well, if we're still together in a few years then I'd consider it".
Which is inherently wrong in my eyes, but I'm not the kinda guy to have a short term relationship. *shrug* I'm not condemning anyone for NOT being abstinent.
Did you always have a really solid understanding of what you were looking for in a partner?
I don't think most people intend to have short term relationships. It just takes most people time to figure out what traits they need in a partner and what traits they can't stand in a partner.
For me, that learning process took the form of dating men for several months and then figuring out that no matter how much we liked each other certain incompatibilities just weren't going to work long term.
Absolutely. I've never been the kinda guy who can have one night stands with women. I've been looking for a girl like my wife since I was in high school. I found her and love her to death.
And I agree people can (and will) go into relationships looking for their partner in life. Which is why I had to redefine short term relationship. I didn't mean to offend.
I think it also depends a lot on what marriage means to you.
Abstinence until marriage doesn't make any sense to me, personally, but I consider marriage to be a legal formality that allows me to visit my husband in the hospital and gets us discounts on car insurance. We made our commitments to each other well before we got married and I know other people that never made commitments to each other despite getting married.
I can understand being abstinent until you and your partner are committed to each other. I don't get why signing a legal document that has nothing to do with personal commitments affects when you start having sex.
And wedding night sex is awesome no matter what :P
And generally relationships should grow and you should get emotionally closer to your spouse over time, so I don't see how either of your last two points are relevant at all to a discussion of abstinence.
Do you think you wouldn't still be growing closer to your wife if you had sex earlier?
Do you think your wedding night sex would have sucked if it hadn't been your first time?
(Honest questions, not snarky, I'm curious if those statements were part of your rationale for being abstinent or if they were just sort of extra comments showing that relationships can grow and be wonderful even when they are also abstinent for a period of time)
Eh. I'm just giving reasons. We were both virgins, and finally married so it seemed extra special that night. We also didn't live with each other until we got married so the emotional closeness could have something to do with that.
But really it's not very everyone. In fact, I'd wager that it probably wouldn't work so well for a majority of people. Sex is great and all, but it shouldn't be the only good thing in the relationship, it should be a bonus. Well, to me anyway. I don't really care how people feel about sex. I have a friend who sleeps with whomever whenever, and I really don't care.
Wait, you didn't live together on top of only dating for a your? Please tell me you were high school sweethearts so we can get the holy trinity of divorce.
Nope. Met her when I was 21, fell in love, asked her to marry me a few years later, and we got married in June.
Glad to know that you think it'll end in divorce though.
It's an actuarial position. The vast majority of "young lovers" who get hitched end up splitting 2-5 years later, even moreso by the 10-15 year mark.
I think it also depends a lot on what marriage means to you.
Abstinence until marriage doesn't make any sense to me, personally, but I consider marriage to be a legal formality that allows me to visit my husband in the hospital and gets us discounts on car insurance. We made our commitments to each other well before we got married and I know other people that never made commitments to each other despite getting married.
I can understand being abstinent until you and your partner are committed to each other. I don't get why signing a legal document that has nothing to do with personal commitments affects when you start having sex.
And wedding night sex is awesome no matter what :P
And generally relationships should grow and you should get emotionally closer to your spouse over time, so I don't see how either of your last two points are relevant at all to a discussion of abstinence.
Do you think you wouldn't still be growing closer to your wife if you had sex earlier?
Do you think your wedding night sex would have sucked if it hadn't been your first time?
(Honest questions, not snarky, I'm curious if those statements were part of your rationale for being abstinent or if they were just sort of extra comments showing that relationships can grow and be wonderful even when they are also abstinent for a period of time)
Eh. I'm just giving reasons. We were both virgins, and finally married so it seemed extra special that night. We also didn't live with each other until we got married so the emotional closeness could have something to do with that.
But really it's not very everyone. In fact, I'd wager that it probably wouldn't work so well for a majority of people. Sex is great and all, but it shouldn't be the only good thing in the relationship, it should be a bonus. Well, to me anyway. I don't really care how people feel about sex. I have a friend who sleeps with whomever whenever, and I really don't care.
Wait, you didn't live together on top of only dating for a your? Please tell me you were high school sweethearts so we can get the holy trinity of divorce.
Nope. Met her when I was 21, fell in love, asked her to marry me a few years later, and we got married in June.
Glad to know that you think it'll end in divorce though.
It's an actuarial position. The vast majority of "young lovers" who get hitched end up splitting 2-5 years later, even moreso by the 10-15 year mark.
And I get to give someone crap about something. Notice that I al;so understated the amount of time they were dating.
Wait, did I say that we've only dated a year and got married? We've been together for almost 5 years now. We were engaged for more than a year before the wedding.
I'm basically with Robman on this. I mean, another important part of a relationship is communication. Most people these days aren't thinking "if I like this girl I'll marry her in the next 6 months" they're thinking "well, if we're still together in a few years then I'd consider it".
Which is inherently wrong in my eyes, but I'm not the kinda guy to have a short term relationship. *shrug* I'm not condemning anyone for NOT being abstinent.
Did you always have a really solid understanding of what you were looking for in a partner?
I don't think most people intend to have short term relationships. It just takes most people time to figure out what traits they need in a partner and what traits they can't stand in a partner.
For me, that learning process took the form of dating men for several months and then figuring out that no matter how much we liked each other certain incompatibilities just weren't going to work long term.
EDIT: you clarified while I was writing this post... you don't need to respond again. I don't think I know anyone that actually does that though. Just one or two people who are really really good at fooling themselves that it will work out this time with this guy who is exactly like the last 10 guys that it didn't work out with.
Looking for one "type" of person doesn't seem healthy to me, of course I'm a borderline hedonist and enjoy the variety of life.
People who take vitamin pills and nutritional supplements are usually dumb-dumbs though.
Emphasis mine before some internet doctor gets angry at me.
Are you dissing my Flintstones Kids?
multivitamins are a very good idea for people who are cutting out certain things from their diet, like red meat, but still need some of the good things it provides.
In fact, certain lifestyle choices (like being a vegetarian / vegan) are downright impossible without supplements.
Vegan, yes. Many flavors of vegetarian, no. Ovo-lacto (the one where you can eat dairy and eggs) is actually pretty damn easy without supplements.
I think it also depends a lot on what marriage means to you.
Abstinence until marriage doesn't make any sense to me, personally, but I consider marriage to be a legal formality that allows me to visit my husband in the hospital and gets us discounts on car insurance. We made our commitments to each other well before we got married and I know other people that never made commitments to each other despite getting married.
I can understand being abstinent until you and your partner are committed to each other. I don't get why signing a legal document that has nothing to do with personal commitments affects when you start having sex.
And wedding night sex is awesome no matter what :P
And generally relationships should grow and you should get emotionally closer to your spouse over time, so I don't see how either of your last two points are relevant at all to a discussion of abstinence.
Do you think you wouldn't still be growing closer to your wife if you had sex earlier?
Do you think your wedding night sex would have sucked if it hadn't been your first time?
(Honest questions, not snarky, I'm curious if those statements were part of your rationale for being abstinent or if they were just sort of extra comments showing that relationships can grow and be wonderful even when they are also abstinent for a period of time)
Eh. I'm just giving reasons. We were both virgins, and finally married so it seemed extra special that night. We also didn't live with each other until we got married so the emotional closeness could have something to do with that.
But really it's not very everyone. In fact, I'd wager that it probably wouldn't work so well for a majority of people. Sex is great and all, but it shouldn't be the only good thing in the relationship, it should be a bonus. Well, to me anyway. I don't really care how people feel about sex. I have a friend who sleeps with whomever whenever, and I really don't care.
Wait, you didn't live together on top of only dating for a your? Please tell me you were high school sweethearts so we can get the holy trinity of divorce.
Nope. Met her when I was 21, fell in love, asked her to marry me a few years later, and we got married in June.
Glad to know that you think it'll end in divorce though.
It's an actuarial position. The vast majority of "young lovers" who get hitched end up splitting 2-5 years later, even moreso by the 10-15 year mark.
I will have to go look up some studies on the matter, but I could have sworn I remember reading that living together before marriage actually increases the likelihood of divorce.
In fact I'm pretty sure I remember hearing that from a friend who got her masters in Sociology.
Anyone have any sources on this either supporting or refuting that? Just curious.
People who take vitamin pills and nutritional supplements are usually dumb-dumbs though.
Emphasis mine before some internet doctor gets angry at me.
Are you dissing my Flintstones Kids?
multivitamins are a very good idea for people who are cutting out certain things from their diet, like red meat, but still need some of the good things it provides.
In fact, certain lifestyle choices (like being a vegetarian / vegan) are downright impossible without supplements.
Vegan, yes. Many flavors of vegetarian, no. Ovo-lacto (the one where you can eat dairy and eggs) is actually pretty damn easy without supplements.
The real trick is living on only meat. Have you seen the blubber prices these days?
This is the best review of the literature I found.
Basically it says that cohabitation is correlated with a bunch of other factors including:
-parental divorce
-fewer religious beliefs
-less egalitarian views of relationship
-lower income
-having kids before being being committed
So if you just compare all couples who cohabit to all couples who don't, the couples who cohabit have higher rates of divorce.
However, if you control for the above mentioned variables (ie couples who cohabit and couples who don't but have the same income or couples who cohabit and couples who don't but all of whom don't have kids) cohabitation is not correlated with increased rates of divorce.
Kistra on
Animal Crossing: City Folk Lissa in Filmore 3179-9580-0076
This is the best review of the literature I found.
Basically it says that cohabitation is correlated with a bunch of other factors including:
-parental divorce
-fewer religious beliefs
-less egalitarian views of relationship
-lower income
-having kids before being being committed
So if you just compare all couples who cohabit to all couples who don't, the couples who cohabit have higher rates of divorce.
However, if you control for the above mentioned variables (ie couples who cohabit and couples who don't but have the same income or couples who cohabit and couples who don't but all of whom don't have kids) cohabitation is not correlated with increased rates of divorce.
I will have to go look up some studies on the matter, but I could have sworn I remember reading that living together before marriage actually increases the likelihood of divorce.
In fact I'm pretty sure I remember hearing that from a friend who got her masters in Sociology.
Anyone have any sources on this either supporting or refuting that? Just curious.
I've definitely read that as well.
I'd like to see a study that accounts for the time living together before marriage. eg: do more couples who lived together for 3 years divorce within 5 years of marriage than couples who did not live together before hand within 8 years of marriage?
If X% of couples divorce in 5 years and Y% in 10 years, with Y > X (obviously), then it seems only reasonable that couples for whom T = T_live_together + T_married > 5 years will have a higher divorce rate than couples for whom T = T_married <= 5 years.
This is the best review of the literature I found.
Basically it says that cohabitation is correlated with a bunch of other factors including:
-parental divorce
-fewer religious beliefs
-less egalitarian views of relationship
-lower income
-having kids before being being committed
So if you just compare all couples who cohabit to all couples who don't, the couples who cohabit have higher rates of divorce.
However, if you control for the above mentioned variables (ie couples who cohabit and couples who don't but have the same income or couples who cohabit and couples who don't but all of whom don't have kids) cohabitation is not correlated with increased rates of divorce.
Posts
Well, it was. You can't exactly steer a plane from the outside, unless you're superman...
OH MY GOD!
Imagine if men could take pills reliably on a daily basis. They could take all manner of things. Vitamins, nutritional supplements... Why, a whole industry might spring up around this idea. They'd be selling these daily supplement pills in stores before you knew it!
Emphasis mine before some internet doctor gets angry at me.
But in the end, it was worth it to me. :P
Any input on what made it worthwhile? And were you both abstinent before that relationship?
Initially I was pretty dead set against it, and when she brought it up I had to take a day or two to think about it. But when I asked her why she decided to go abstinent, she told me that all the guys she dated tried to get into her pants, and when she refused they got all hissy and left and never called back.
My relationships before this one were generally all long distance so nothing really came of them.
And I'd say it was worth it because the wedding night was pretty amazing. Plus I'd gone like 20 some years without sex before that, I could hold off a few more years. But yeah I think that the wedding night was amazing, and now we're more emotionally connected than when we first met if that makes sense.
But, like I said, I don't recommend it for everyone. It's tough. It really is.
If not fucking is your thing, then by all means. But you better be up front about that little detail. I don't mean to get all up in your wife's thing, but putting it as "the dude's tried to get in her pants", welp, of course they wanted to fuck her. Sex is a key part of any romantic relationship, in the eyes of most people.
And besides that's not the point of the thing, so please don't get hung up on the little things. That was indeed the tl;dr'ed of the entire thing.
EDIT: urahonky - there's a difference between abstinence and being against any intimacy whatsoever. But we're never going to get enough information on the interwebs before someone takes off in a huff.
Abstinence until marriage doesn't make any sense to me, personally, but I consider marriage to be a legal formality that allows me to visit my husband in the hospital and gets us discounts on car insurance. We made our commitments to each other well before we got married and I know other people that never made commitments to each other despite getting married.
I can understand being abstinent until you and your partner are committed to each other. I don't get why signing a legal document that has nothing to do with personal commitments affects when you start having sex.
And wedding night sex is awesome no matter what :P
And generally relationships should grow and you should get emotionally closer to your spouse over time, so I don't see how either of your last two points are relevant at all to a discussion of abstinence.
Do you think you wouldn't still be growing closer to your wife if you had sex earlier?
Do you think your wedding night sex would have sucked if it hadn't been your first time?
(Honest questions, not snarky, I'm curious if those statements were part of your rationale for being abstinent or if they were just sort of extra comments showing that relationships can grow and be wonderful even when they are also abstinent for a period of time)
Which is inherently wrong in my eyes, but I'm not the kinda guy to have a short term relationship. *shrug* I'm not condemning anyone for NOT being abstinent.
That's fair. And I'm pretty sure we are talking about your leetle things BAZINGA.
Eh. I'm just giving reasons. We were both virgins, and finally married so it seemed extra special that night. We also didn't live with each other until we got married so the emotional closeness could have something to do with that.
But really it's not very everyone. In fact, I'd wager that it probably wouldn't work so well for a majority of people. Sex is great and all, but it shouldn't be the only good thing in the relationship, it should be a bonus. Well, to me anyway. I don't really care how people feel about sex. I have a friend who sleeps with whomever whenever, and I really don't care.
Are you dissing my Flintstones Kids?
Oh youuuuu!
EDIT: I don't see a rational way to define yourself as the type of guy who has X term relationships beyond "I only have 1 night stands" or not.
Did you go into the relationship wanting it to end early? I know plenty of folks that can't have more than a 6 month relationship because they want more women in their lives. Which is okay if it's not working out, you know?
But now this is more of a relationship thread than abstinence ELM. :P
e: Sorry, yeah the definition "short term relationship" sounds bad. That's my fault. I meant someone who gets into a relationship with full knowledge that it's not going to work out in the end, but stays in it for teh secks. (Which is a small minority of guys that I know)
multivitamins are a very good idea for people who are cutting out certain things from their diet, like red meat, but still need some of the good things it provides.
In fact, certain lifestyle choices (like being a vegetarian / vegan) are downright impossible without supplements.
Let's play Mario Kart or something...
Wait, you didn't live together on top of only dating for a your? Please tell me you were high school sweethearts so we can get the holy trinity of divorce.
Did you always have a really solid understanding of what you were looking for in a partner?
I don't think most people intend to have short term relationships. It just takes most people time to figure out what traits they need in a partner and what traits they can't stand in a partner.
For me, that learning process took the form of dating men for several months and then figuring out that no matter how much we liked each other certain incompatibilities just weren't going to work long term.
EDIT: you clarified while I was writing this post... you don't need to respond again. I don't think I know anyone that actually does that though. Just one or two people who are really really good at fooling themselves that it will work out this time with this guy who is exactly like the last 10 guys that it didn't work out with.
Nope. Met her when I was 21, fell in love, asked her to marry me a few years later, and we got married in June.
Glad to know that you think it'll end in divorce though.
Sure, if you can find a brand that has consistent quality control and doesn't use cheap, shitty ingredients.
And as long as you take the multivitamin with a meal, so you don't piss out the pill ten minutes later.
Absolutely. I've never been the kinda guy who can have one night stands with women. I've been looking for a girl like my wife since I was in high school. I found her and love her to death.
And I agree people can (and will) go into relationships looking for their partner in life. Which is why I had to redefine short term relationship. I didn't mean to offend.
It's an actuarial position. The vast majority of "young lovers" who get hitched end up splitting 2-5 years later, even moreso by the 10-15 year mark.
The secular justification for abstinence frequently starts with a value-judgement on relationships.
And I get to give someone crap about something. Notice that I al;so understated the amount of time they were dating.
Looking for one "type" of person doesn't seem healthy to me, of course I'm a borderline hedonist and enjoy the variety of life.
Vegan, yes. Many flavors of vegetarian, no. Ovo-lacto (the one where you can eat dairy and eggs) is actually pretty damn easy without supplements.
I will have to go look up some studies on the matter, but I could have sworn I remember reading that living together before marriage actually increases the likelihood of divorce.
In fact I'm pretty sure I remember hearing that from a friend who got her masters in Sociology.
Anyone have any sources on this either supporting or refuting that? Just curious.
The real trick is living on only meat. Have you seen the blubber prices these days?
This is the best review of the literature I found.
Basically it says that cohabitation is correlated with a bunch of other factors including:
-parental divorce
-fewer religious beliefs
-less egalitarian views of relationship
-lower income
-having kids before being being committed
So if you just compare all couples who cohabit to all couples who don't, the couples who cohabit have higher rates of divorce.
However, if you control for the above mentioned variables (ie couples who cohabit and couples who don't but have the same income or couples who cohabit and couples who don't but all of whom don't have kids) cohabitation is not correlated with increased rates of divorce.
Thanks for this.
I've definitely read that as well.
I'd like to see a study that accounts for the time living together before marriage. eg: do more couples who lived together for 3 years divorce within 5 years of marriage than couples who did not live together before hand within 8 years of marriage?
If X% of couples divorce in 5 years and Y% in 10 years, with Y > X (obviously), then it seems only reasonable that couples for whom T = T_live_together + T_married > 5 years will have a higher divorce rate than couples for whom T = T_married <= 5 years.
God, that word looks ridiculous.
the "no true scotch man" fallacy.