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Let's talk about digital PCM, HDMI, and why I (think I) hate Yahama...

DietarySupplementDietarySupplement Registered User regular
Alright everyone, before I embarass myself in the Gear Porn thread...

I have a new Yamaha Amp, and it supports HDMI in. When I replaced my old Sony receiver, I had my devices (DVR, PS3) connected via optical cable to the sound system, and the HDMI cables to the TV. It worked flawlessly; 5.1 Dolby, PLII, and DTS all worked fine.

When I first hooked up my new receiver, I took the HDMI cables from the devices and plugged them into the receiever. From there, I took an HDMI from the receiver to the TV. In my head, it makes sense: sound from the devices go out to the receiver, and the receiver can transit the signal to the TV for video.

It didn't quite work that way: The sound refuses to play at the receiver level, instead it passes through to to the TV, and will only output there, at the speakers on the TV itself. Frustrated, I decided to RTFM. Turns out that any HDMI signals are not output at the receiver by design. From the manual:
Information on HDMI:

Audio signals input at the HDMI jack are not output from any speaker terminals but output from the connected video monitor. To enjoy sound from speakers connected to this unit,

- make an analog or digital connection besides the HDMI connection.
- mute the volume of the connected video monitor

Which, to me doesn't make sense: If I want PCM 5.1 audio, which the amp does support (up to 96Khz), why do I have to make another connection? Defeated, I went back to how I had it on my old set up: HDMI straight from the devices to the TV, and optical out from the devices to the receiver. Everything looks and sounds great: 5.1, DTS, and Pro Logic II. No problems.

Then, I upgraded my TV to a new 52" LCD. It supports optical out. "Hmm," I thought. I then plugged the HDMI back into the receiver, and put the HDMI from there to the TV. I took an optical cable from the TV to the receiver. Success! But: I can't get 5.1 sound. Everything, regardless of signal, only shows up as "Pro Logic" on my receiver. The PCM light is lit, but I don't think my TV decodes 5.1 signals. Does that sound right?

So here's my question: am I doing this wrong? What's the "right" way to hook up a theatre system this way? I get the feeling that my receiver is the issue here?

DietarySupplement on
Skull2185 wrote: »
Basically, (PlayStation) Home is Second Life Ultra Light? Most of the cool stuff, none of the creepy blimp on blimp fucking.

Posts

  • pheknophekno Registered User regular
    edited September 2009
    What Yamaha receiver do you have? I have an RX-V663 and have HDMI going from my DVR/Cable Box and PS3 going to the receiver and then to my TV. The receiver outputs sound just fine.

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  • DietarySupplementDietarySupplement Registered User regular
    edited September 2009
    It was a out-of-the-box home theatre system: HTR-6230

    Skull2185 wrote: »
    Basically, (PlayStation) Home is Second Life Ultra Light? Most of the cool stuff, none of the creepy blimp on blimp fucking.
  • syndalissyndalis Getting Classy On the WallRegistered User, Loves Apple Products regular
    edited September 2009
    your receiver sounds retarded.

    You should be able to get audio through HDMI, as that has been part of the spec since HDMI existed. If yamaha released a product with HDMI ports that doesn't support audio decoding at the receiver level, I would check to make sure it is not a Yawaha or somesuch bastardization from China.

  • DietarySupplementDietarySupplement Registered User regular
    edited September 2009
    syndalis wrote: »
    your receiver sounds retarded.

    You should be able to get audio through HDMI, as that has been part of the spec since HDMI existed. If yamaha released a product with HDMI ports that doesn't support audio decoding at the receiver level, I would check to make sure it is not a Yawaha or somesuch bastardization from China.

    Nope, definitely Yamaha. And it says in the manual that if you use the HDMI-out on the receiver, the sound is ouput at the monitor, not the system. But in looking at the model Phenko described, it doesn't say that... but I can't find the 663; it appears 665 is the next "generation" of that model.

    I mean, I guess it's may fault for going with an out-of-the-box solution, but it sounds pretty bitchin' in my basement. I may have to go purchase a new one tonight.

    Skull2185 wrote: »
    Basically, (PlayStation) Home is Second Life Ultra Light? Most of the cool stuff, none of the creepy blimp on blimp fucking.
  • midgetspymidgetspy Registered User
    edited September 2009
    This is very common in cheap receivers - it is called HDMI passthrough. Basically, in order to avoid having to process high bitrate HDMI streams the receiver just passes the HDMI stream straight to the display.

  • DietarySupplementDietarySupplement Registered User regular
    edited September 2009
    Thanks everyone, I appreciate the feedback. I new receiver is next on the list. Now here's another dumb question: It says my current receiver is 600W (100W per 5 channels, 100W woofer). If the 665 model (described above) is 90W per channel. I'm safe here, right, as far as my speakers go? I have to assume that the speakers shipped with my theatre system are rated for 100W. It's if the new system put out more than 100W per channel that I'd have to get new speakers, right?

    Also, I only have 5 speakers. These other Yamaha receivers are 7.1. I don't have to go out and purchase 2 more do I? I only play games or watch movies in 5.1 (and many of the Blue Ray movies I own offer only 5.1 PCM, in addition to 5.1 dolby).

    Skull2185 wrote: »
    Basically, (PlayStation) Home is Second Life Ultra Light? Most of the cool stuff, none of the creepy blimp on blimp fucking.
  • PeregrineFalconPeregrineFalcon Registered User regular
    edited September 2009
    Thanks everyone, I appreciate the feedback. I new receiver is next on the list. Now here's another dumb question: It says my current receiver is 600W (100W per 5 channels, 100W woofer). If the 665 model (described above) is 90W per channel. I'm safe here, right, as far as my speakers go? I have to assume that the speakers shipped with my theatre system are rated for 100W. It's if the new system put out more than 100W per channel that I'd have to get new speakers, right?

    Also, I only have 5 speakers. These other Yamaha receivers are 7.1. I don't have to go out and purchase 2 more do I? I only play games or watch movies in 5.1 (and many of the Blue Ray movies I own offer only 5.1 PCM, in addition to 5.1 dolby).

    1. Is that RMS or PMPO rating? Make sure you're comparing like-to-like; HTIBs like to quote the latter, bullshit number. Having a little more power than your speakers can handle isn't necessarily bad - just don't crank it to 11 and actually send more than the rated amount down the wire at them.
    2. Make absolutely fucking sure that the speakers are the same resistance. You don't want to find out that your HTIB receiver outputs some proprietary signal at 6ohm that will ruin both 4ohm and 8ohm speakers the hard way.
    3. You're fine. Just set your player/PS3/etc to only speak 5.1 channel, and it'll downmix everything for you. Failing that, your receiver can probably do the downmix as well if your source won't do a 7.1->5.1 downmix, or it wants to use a compressed source instead of lossless.

    And finally, you can thank copy-protection bullshit for the TV's inability to output anything more than 2.0 digital over its optical output from any source except the ATSC tuner. :P

    Looking for a DX:HR OnLive code for my kid brother.
    Can trade TF2 items or whatever else you're interested in. PM me.
  • DietarySupplementDietarySupplement Registered User regular
    edited September 2009
    Thanks Peregrine, I'll go home and check that tonight. Great advice. My secret hope is that it's the same all-around. I was just reading the book to the HTIB and the new receiver I am looking at, and it says:

    Current:

    Minimum RMS output power for front, center, surround: 1kHz, 0.9THD, 8 Ohms
    Maximum Power (JEITA): 1kHz, 10% THD, 8 Ohms

    New:

    Minimum RMS Output Power for Front, Center, Surround, Surrond Back: 1kHz, THD, 8 Ohms
    Dynamic Power (IHF): Front Speakers 8/6/4/2 Ohms 95/110/130/150W

    Is this what you're referring to?

    Skull2185 wrote: »
    Basically, (PlayStation) Home is Second Life Ultra Light? Most of the cool stuff, none of the creepy blimp on blimp fucking.
  • Mr_GrinchMr_Grinch Registered User regular
    edited September 2009
    May I please hijack your thread?

    I'm running a yamaha ax563, it supports up to 7.1 (PCM) via HDMI. I've got two HDMI devices, one being my PC, one my PS3. The PS3 SEEMS to be fine when plugged in to the yamaha via HDMI, sound outputs ok, as does video however the PC is different.

    When I run the video through the Yamaha it lightens the picture up (like it can't display all the RGB values, light grey becomes white) which I would be fine with as it only appears to affect the desktop, not films played through it. The main annoyance is when there's a bright white on screen (I assume it's a certain RGB value it doesn't like) the TV loses signal completely, flashes black and then reconnects to the signal when the image has changed a bit.

    I've tried changing the RGB range from Full to Limited with no success, I've tried using the brightness controls to dull the white, no luck there. I've come up with a temporary solution for now but I was wondering if anyone had an idea why it does this, I would have thought the amp would just have passed the video signal through untouched.

    (plugging HDMI straight in to the tv fixes all flickering problems)

    Steam: Sir_Grinch
    PSN: SirGrinchX
    Xbox Live: SirGrinch X
  • DietarySupplementDietarySupplement Registered User regular
    edited September 2009
    I'm no expert, but it appears that signal isn't suppported by the receiver. Have you tried a different resolution on the video card?

    Skull2185 wrote: »
    Basically, (PlayStation) Home is Second Life Ultra Light? Most of the cool stuff, none of the creepy blimp on blimp fucking.
  • ToyDToyD Registered User regular
    edited September 2009
    I'm posting for the OP just to also add that I have an RX-V663 and it's awesome. I added a monoprice 4-in-1 HDMI switch to it and the darn thing is flawless. HDMI to the reciever, HDMI to monitor and it works fine.

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  • PeregrineFalconPeregrineFalcon Registered User regular
    edited September 2009
    Thanks Peregrine, I'll go home and check that tonight. Great advice. My secret hope is that it's the same all-around. I was just reading the book to the HTIB and the new receiver I am looking at, and it says:

    Current:

    Minimum RMS output power for front, center, surround: 1kHz, 0.9THD, 8 Ohms
    Maximum Power (JEITA): 1kHz, 10% THD, 8 Ohms

    New:

    Minimum RMS Output Power for Front, Center, Surround, Surrond Back: 1kHz, THD, 8 Ohms
    Dynamic Power (IHF): Front Speakers 8/6/4/2 Ohms 95/110/130/150W

    Is this what you're referring to?

    Looks like you're fine there, they both have the same resistance (8ohm) - in fact your new receiver can drive speakers all the way down to 2ohm, at least on the fronts. :)
    Mr_Grinch wrote: »
    May I please hijack your thread?

    Sounds like either an HDCP problem, or:
    This unit’s HDMI interface is based on the following
    standards:
    • HDMI Version 1.2a (High-Definition Multimedia Interface Specification Version 1.2a) licensed by HDMI Licensing, LLC.

    IIRC, Deep Color support didn't come about until HDMI 1.3. Updated your video card drivers lately?

    Looking for a DX:HR OnLive code for my kid brother.
    Can trade TF2 items or whatever else you're interested in. PM me.
  • Mr_GrinchMr_Grinch Registered User regular
    edited September 2009
    Actually I haven't updated the video card drivers in a while. I'll give that a go cheers (something I should really have thought of).

    It's only very infrequent and only on certain scenes.

    Steam: Sir_Grinch
    PSN: SirGrinchX
    Xbox Live: SirGrinch X
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