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Obama asked not to lay a wreath on the Confederate Veterans memorial.
Captain Carrot
Alexandria, VARegistered User regular
Alexandria, VARegistered User regular
Obama will lay a wreath.
On the one hand, the Civil War was about slavery (though more the political implications than the moral), and glorifying those who fought for slavery is kind of a bad thing; on the other hand, a small chunk of the Confederates were drafted, and it's not as if everybody in the South loved slavery and everyone in the North hated it. Was Obama right to deny the petition? Is it good politics? Good policy? Should maybe the next president stop doing it?
Note: I will cut the first person who compares the Confederates to the Nazis.
On the one hand, the Civil War was about slavery (though more the political implications than the moral), and glorifying those who fought for slavery is kind of a bad thing; on the other hand, a small chunk of the Confederates were drafted, and it's not as if everybody in the South loved slavery and everyone in the North hated it. Was Obama right to deny the petition? Is it good politics? Good policy? Should maybe the next president stop doing it?
Note: I will cut the first person who compares the Confederates to the Nazis.
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Those soldiers were still american citizens.
The American Civil War was a terrible thing but I think it would be disingenuous to ignore any human life that was lost in the fighting.
Let 'em eat fucking pineapples!
Can trade TF2 items or whatever else you're interested in. PM me.
But according to everyone else they were
The scholars for ignoring the realities of the situation and regarding the Confederate soldiers as one huge slave-loving mass, and the Daughters of Confederacy (really? That's their name? Wtf) for even pretending the Civil War wasn't about slaves
The only problem I have is that it legitimizes this bullshit.
The South had some legitimate reasons for wanting to break away.
It's important we honor the people who died, especially on Memorial Day, regardless of who gets legitimized
Some shit is more important than political practicality
Such as?
Not really.
I mean that a lot of confederate soldiers joined to defend their homes is a given. When large armies start tramping trough the neigborhood its only natural to want to fight them and there is no shame in respecting the dead.
The Confederate cause however is moraly bankrupt and any attempt at a defense is pointless. People that do are not worth listening too.
But we shouldn't forget that the average confederate soldier was most likely not personally invested in slavery. Slaves were predominately owned by a select few wealthy landowners. Your average southern soldier was most likely about as racist as your northern soldier of the time. And while we shouldn't glorify or condone the reasons for the war, we shouldn't just say "oh well you fought for the wrong side, your a horrible person and deserve no respect".
The confederacy was a pile of poor people fighting against their own interests because a few rich white folks wanted to keep their workforce.
The politicians and statesmen who made the Confederacy necessary do not.
Personally I wouldn't have a problem with this kind of approach.
Really? Even knowing how soldiers are used and misused by politicians?
took out her barrettes and her hair spilled out like rootbeer
Sherman's March to the Sea: Deserving of respect.
Joe Bob's defending his home from a psychotic bastard that just torched Atlanta: Horrific beyond words.
Glad we cleared that up.
So... Gobama?
Read the fucking OP
And in all honesty it's not that different, a comparative minority of German soldiers in WWII were responsible for the atrocities that occurred
i have a feeling that the above concept (restated if necessary) is likely true for all wars.
the civil war was fought over a particularly vile issue: slavery (and states' rights and shit like that too, but the most important issue was slavery). slavery is pretty much the worst possible thing i can think of, next to genocide.
now, if we honor the soldiers who were, in effect, fighting on the side of slavery, regardless of how innocent or ignorant they personally were, then why don't we simply honor all soldiers, regardless of what cause they fight for? what would have happened if they won? what kind of world would we live in?
i don't think every soldier is a victim. i don't think every soldier should be honored or memorialized. there are some soldiers who deserve to be forgotten and possibly even despised. does the confederate soldier deserve to be despised? i don't know. maybe, maybe not.
but he certainly doesn't deserve to be honored.
So the Republican party?
I did, it didn't answer my question.
You'd probably only be able to do this if the particular nature of the conflict guaranteed that all the soldiers fighting for it believed in it and thus they were fighting for it not because they had to but because they believe the things they were fighting for. And since this would give you, usually, a relatively small fighting force it doesn't come up that much in reality since most causes will just want as much manpower as possible.
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...why is a comparison to Reagan at Bitburg out of bounds?
Terrorists, for one.
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Yes, how dare people want to draw parallels between one of the few other controversies that arise from wreath laying and compare it with the issue presented in this thread. The contextually dependent bastards.
Sure, if you ignore the fact that the recruiting of terrorists or for rebel groups is done forcibly, typically to child soldiers (for the latter group) but not entirely restricted to children, where if you don't join you or your family is killed.
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Because you don't have an answer and it's a question you don't want to face? Because I see precisely zero differences between the two.
Edit: What Moniker said.
the way i see it, there is no legitimate method of making a distinction between the soldier on the ground and the commander or administration that directs that soldier.
the only soldiers that i think are worthy of distinction are those that actually disobey orders to obey their conscience (and likely end up with dishonorable discharge, court martial, imprisonment, etc., etc.) this is the only time i can really consider a soldier a person and not a weapon.
were there confederate soldiers who defected to the north because they disagreed with slavery? if so, i would have no problems honoring them. the others? not so much.
Talk to some veterans. Soldiers, on the whole, don't fight for a cause. They fight for their friends, their family, and, most of all, the other soldier next to him. If he was from New York instead of Virginia he'd probably have been wearing blue instead of grey.
Also, please enlighten me how atrocities made for the right side of a fight deserves to be honored while the valour on the wrong side deserves to be forgotten?
I'm fine with Obama sending a wreath to a Confederate memorial for reasons already pretty well laid out by others. Depending on the circumstances I might also support a similar gesture for those who fought on the German side of WW2. Towards the end of the war they started using the very young and the very old, yes?
It's not so black and white. Regardless of the side a soldier fought on they could not necessarily be held responsible for the actions of the commanding officers. Obviously there is a point where one's actions are one's own responsibility but there were a lot of soldiers who were simply victims of circumstances who had little choice in the matter.
This arguement is ludicrous
You really think most Confederate soldiers knew what they were fighting for? I guarantee a whole shitload of it was politician fearmongering about how the "government" was "going to take away state's rights" and it was their "duty as a person to defend their home". And you think the Union soldiers were white knights of peace? Give me a break. I'm sure a majority of them joined due to draft/ a sense of fear for their home, the same as the Confederates
Saying people shouldn't be honored because they were born south of the Mason-Dixon is both reductionary and ignorant