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Obama asked not to lay a wreath on the Confederate Veterans memorial.
Posts
that was in response to the "they were all traitors and not foreign invaders that attacked united states troops". they weren't, its cut and dry.
as far as why we should honor them, I personally refuse to believe that they were all evil regardless of how many letters are dug up showing their support for slavery. during vietnam, you could find tons of people who were completely racist and genocidal towards all asians, that doesn't make them evil. in 2002, you could probably find tons of people ready to kill all arabs and muslims, they aren't evil for that either.
but thats just me and you are welcome to believe and think whatever you like.
What, exactly, is the point?
My point is that I'm not going to expect Southerners and the South to live in the shadow of something that happened over a century ago.
The only people who tend to still be upset about the Civil War is Northerners. Southerners don't look back on the Civil War and think about Slavery. They look back and see brave young men answering the call to arms.
I looked at about a dozen Confederate memorials online today, and all of them honored bravery in the face of war. Not a single one of them depicted a plantation owner flogging a slave with the inscription "Keep blackie down".
So if the most you can take from the South, after over a century, is that the Southern politician institutionalized slavery, and fuck the poor bastard caught up in it, then that's short sightedness on your part and I'm glad is, at best, past that petty shit and, at worst, realizes that he can put a wreath at the site and just side step a stupid argument.
They were traitors, by the way.
Probably because they lost! That might have something to do with it.
Are you from the South, Sheep?
In regards to official visits and actions from the president, I think the law and convictions ARE relevant.
The black people lynched and hung weren't hung by politicians.
It isn't obvious?
I don't see how losing the war would have anything to do with how it's viewed. Fighting against "Northern Aggression" was a common theme in the South during the war.
I'm not exactly sure what you expect me to say about it.
That's my main problem when this issue comes up. The historical revisionism by some Southerners to make their ancestors look better is disgusting. If Southerners really want to move past it they need to stop lying about slavery having nothing to do with the war and admit the sins of their ancestors.
I disagree, I think that the president should be able to evaluate a situation from the relevant evidence and form reactions to it like any other citizen would. The official ruling of guilt or innocence should only factor into punishment they are given through the legal system.
The president should look at the evidence and arrive at a conclusion about those fighting for the Confederacy, I believe the correct view is that they were traitors. What would be wrong is if he decided they were traitors and then had land and such that was handed down from those guilty of treason confiscated.
Let me put it this way: When military graduates go to Masada for the graduation ceremony, they don't intone "let's do that again."
So you believe that the president should be able to reevaluate things, but ONLY if the president ends up agreeing with you?
I haven't seen anything saying that Obama did this against his will, you know.
Even after they had tried to take their life and you have burned their cities in action against their rebellion.
Yes it was illegal, yes it was traitorous, yes it supported an immoral practice against my ancestors, but laying the wreath says no hard feelings, whats done is done.
I am sorry we can't convince yall of this but at some point you have to let it go and pray for them and honor their deaths with the deaths of soldiers today.
http://www.fallout3nexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=16534
They at least USED TO intone "Masada will not fall again."
Which is great and motivational, and also ENTIRELY ignorant of the fact that what teh Zealots did by murdering their wives and children was horrible.
Masada is interesting historically and geographically, but people who derive some sense of pride from it are doing it wrong.
No, that is not what I said. You said that for visits the President makes should take into consideration convictions of a crime. I said that a president should be able to evaluate a situation based on the evidence and disregard what the courts found.
In this particular case I think the correct position is that the Confederate were traitors. If Obama evaluated the situation and decided that he thought they were not traitors, I wouldn't say that he should haven't been able to in the first place, I would just think he was wrong. There could also be the situation that he considered the Confederates to be traitors and decided to do the wreath thing anyway.
Well of course they do; it would be rather depressing to think back and say, man, my grandfather fought for slavery. And as far as people living in the shadow of the civil war, I will just point out that people in the north aren't putting the Union symbols on their pickups (or priuses if you like), or flying union flags over their statehouses. The north doesn't have Union-based organizations demanding the civil war be called "a patriotic call to arms." The state I live in didn't exist at the time of the civil war, but from where I'm sitting the north seems to be far more "over it" than the south is.
Right, they just have inscriptions implying that the south, having seceded so that they could keep their slaves, was actually fighting on the side of patriotic freedom. Or did you ignore those on the next 11 monuments you looked at, too?
I don't want us to have to side step it because a bunch of southerners are uncomfortable being told the war was about slavery.
dappled sunlight / strikes your butt
girl you got a / real sweet butt
Yeah, fuck that. You're entitled to your Saturday morning special morality, though!
From what I've heard it's just "never again."
There's a difference between forgiving someone for past actions and celebrating them
QEDMF xbl: PantsB G+
There's a difference between honoring a warrior and celebrating their war.
http://www.fallout3nexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=16534
That's very nice and all but it's shitty diplomacy.
Probably. I was just covering the "reality" portion of the argument.
Justice and "right" are a dangerous concepts, I'm afraid.
Sometimes you need to focus on what actually helps make the lives of human beings better instead of just what gets your righteousness rocks off.
Okay, so my arguments were entirely academic.
Absolutely.
Pedantry may save lives at the operating table, but not at the peace table.
i can prove that they were soldiers and i can prove that they were absolved of all forms of treason. why don't you prove to me that they weren't.
foreign leaders of foreign countries do not enjoy the right of being innocent until proven guilty in the eyes of the american justice system.
History books aren't part of the justice system.
How is it "making the lives of humans better" to look at people who claim the civil war wasn't about slavery and was instead "a patriotic call to arms," and just tell them okay, fine, have a pat on the head?
Forgiveness is fine. I'm less willing to reward people perpetuating the idea that the south was somehow in the right.
dappled sunlight / strikes your butt
girl you got a / real sweet butt
The law is not a perfect indicator of everything that is right, just, or even factual, and often throughout history has not been. The fact that a person was acquitted (or absolved, for that matter) of a crime does not mean they did not commit the act that led to the prosecution.
dappled sunlight / strikes your butt
girl you got a / real sweet butt
and?
I take it you haven't studied conquest much...?
When you claim dominion over a population you need to either befriend them, integrate them, or destroy them or they will fuck with you until the end of time.
And nobody is saying they were in the right.
Except for the people whose monument the wreath is being laid at, of course.
dappled sunlight / strikes your butt
girl you got a / real sweet butt
And that means they are not held by the decisions of the legal system, and so can prove it themselves based upon archival information.
Then how the hell did Obama get to it without being shot or asked to leave?
From what I can see the people who erected it are DEFENDING A MYTH, not what actually happened.
dappled sunlight / strikes your butt
girl you got a / real sweet butt
nothing is a perfect indicator of everything that is right just or factual. at least in this case, we know that a much greater man than any of us saw the need to forgive these soldiers for what they did realizing that they were not all traitors to be hung. they were soldiers of the united states of america and deserve to be honored as such.
you honestly believe that for some reason the devil really did go down to georgia and made every man older than 18 in the south evil? i don't think so.
dappled sunlight / strikes your butt
girl you got a / real sweet butt