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[Food Inc] Monsanto: Evil corporation, or the Evilest corporation?

124

Posts

  • RussellRussell Registered User
    edited June 2009
    I thought 'frankenfood' specifically refers to genetically modified food?

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • electricitylikesmeelectricitylikesme Registered User regular
    edited June 2009
    It does, hence my discontent.

    Transfats have existed and been bad for you long since before GM-food came into existence.

    Dis' wrote: »
    Cancer is when cells stop letting the body mooch off their hard work - clearly a community of like-minded cells should isolate themselves and do the best job each can do, even if the rest of the body collapses!
  • ronyaronya Arrrrrrf. the ivory tower's basementRegistered User regular
    edited June 2009
    Oh, and Thanatos, do you understand what would happen if we ended corn subsidies? America's GDP would collapse. Could you please think this through? If these farmers don't find corn profitable, what are they going to grow? They can't all grow pot in Northern California. We're going to have millions of people with no effective skills to work with in the modern world.

    I call bullshit. Agriculture as a percentage of US GDP: 0.7%. That's all of agriculture, not only corn.

  • electricitylikesmeelectricitylikesme Registered User regular
    edited June 2009
    Moreover, farmers can grow something other then corn.

    And more importantly, I can think of no profession in which people expect to do exactly the same thing for their entire career. Similar things yes, but I'd like someone to convince me that a farmer is incapable of learning how to grow a different crop.

    Dis' wrote: »
    Cancer is when cells stop letting the body mooch off their hard work - clearly a community of like-minded cells should isolate themselves and do the best job each can do, even if the rest of the body collapses!
  • ronyaronya Arrrrrrf. the ivory tower's basementRegistered User regular
    edited June 2009
    Quid wrote: »
    Quid wrote: »
    Or they could grow something besides corn.

    I hear you can do that.

    Would it make a profit? Is the midwest good for those other crops?
    Corn isn't making a profit without massive subsidization. Meanwhile, yes, I'm pretty sure you can grow shit in the midwest beside corn.

    If they can't make a profit with other food, then they'll need subsidies. Essentially you're suggesting tthat the government spreads the subsidies around. That might work in weakening the monoculture, but it would be extraordinarily complicated in switching that out. Plus there would be the cries of 'socialism!' and 'the gub'ment shouldn't be telling me what to eat!' which are ridiculous but does make the plan politically impractical.

    Or they could, y'know, stop being farmers. And not get massive subsidies just so they can stay afloat, like everyone else.

  • ThanatosThanatos Registered User regular
    edited June 2009
    zakkiel wrote: »
    Thanatos wrote: »
    Quid wrote: »
    Or they could grow something besides corn.

    I hear you can do that.
    Would it make a profit? Is the midwest good for those other crops?
    Midwestern soil isn't good for anything. It used to be incredibly fertile, and farmers used to know how to rotate crops in order to maintain a layer of topsoil, and they used to know how to use natural fertilizers in small amounts in order to supplement what was already there.

    Now, all they know how to do is replace what topsoil used to do with a shitload of fertilizer, which is necessary because corn is such a fertilizer-intensive product. It is fucking horrible for the soil, unlike any number of other crops they could be growing, but it's so easy to genetically engineer that it's what the food megacorps like to use. They in turn lobby the government to maintain the massive subsidies, create frankencows, frankenfish, frankenpigs, and frankenchickens that survive on it (instead of what they're supposed to eat), and saddle us with frankenfood that is fucking awful for us, but is incredibly calorie-dense, and doesn't fill us up.

    It's fucking terrible all around.

    And one of the two guys they were talking to in that interview with the filmmakers is Michael Pollan, who wrote The Omnivore's Dilemma, which is a fantastic fucking book if you want to understand this stuff.
    My bullshit alarm is definitely going off on this rhapsodizing over the good old days when Midwestern farmers were one with nature and took care of the soil. See the Dust Bowl.

    Also, I would love to see your evidence that "frankenfoods" are awful for us.
    I'm not saying they used to be "one with nature" or any bullshit like that; I'm saying that they used to take at least the bare minimal step of rotating their fucking crops; they don't even do that anymore.

    And are you trying to say that having high-fructose corn syrup in practically everything (there is corn in my fucking peanuts) isn't bad for us? That making bread with HFCS instead of, I don't know, bread isn't the best? HFCS are the simplest of the simple sugars, and yeah, while they're maybe not any worse for you than cane sugar, who the hell would expect to find cane sugar in wheat bread? I know I wouldn't.

    This also goes for the beef which, as I've pointed out, because it's raised on corn has a bunch of marbling (which is what they base USDA grades around, the more the better) which is what causes such high saturated fat content in beef, in addition to creating an environment rich with opportunities for bacterial infections.

    And by "frankenfoods," I'm not referring specifically to GM food (though, in the case of corn, there isn't a non-GM version of it, so there, yeah, they happen to be the same), but to the things we make from corn, like your average meal from McDonald's.

  • electricitylikesmeelectricitylikesme Registered User regular
    edited June 2009
    Thanatos wrote: »
    And are you trying to say that having high-fructose corn syrup in practically everything (there is corn in my fucking peanuts) isn't bad for us? That making bread with HFCS instead of, I don't know, bread isn't the best? HFCS are the simplest of the simple sugars, and yeah, while they're maybe not any worse for you than cane sugar, who the hell would expect to find cane sugar in wheat bread? I know I wouldn't.
    Not to be down on you, but pretty much all bread has sugar in it. You add it to feed the yeast.

    Dis' wrote: »
    Cancer is when cells stop letting the body mooch off their hard work - clearly a community of like-minded cells should isolate themselves and do the best job each can do, even if the rest of the body collapses!
  • ronyaronya Arrrrrrf. the ivory tower's basementRegistered User regular
    edited June 2009
    Eh, Thanatos. I'd love to see your view on the two questions I mentioned earlier: why the US corn lobby is as strong as it is, and whether removing the subsidy would eliminate the bulk of such problems. (i.e., is it the main problem, or are you just using it as an example?)

    So far, three separate hypotheses on the first question in this thread (Iowa, regulation fail, Nixon fail), and no answers to the second.

  • GoumindongGoumindong Registered User regular
    edited June 2009
    Not to be down on you, but pretty much all bread has sugar in it. You add it to feed the yeast.
    Not to be down on you, but no it does not. Grains, fucking all of them, have natural sugars enough to feed the yeast. You do not need to add anything. Sugars that are added are for taste, not to feed the yeast.

    This is one reason why we have had bread before globalization allowed sugar to be widely shipped all over the world.
    ronya wrote: »
    Nonetheless, the costs fall primarily on your taxpayers

    No, they don't. Because the costs to third world nations are exponential while the costs to American Tax Payers are linear. I.E. Third world nations which need agricultural production to both feed their people[and can't due, not a small amount due to our subsidies] lose growth. This means they lose a few % per year. This compounds over 40-50 years to simply fuck them.

    In raw GDP you can expect the difference over 40 years of 1% growth to produce about 49% of growth over your initial starting GDP. At 3% growth you produce 226% growth over those same 40 years. This doesn't even get into the problems of poverty traps et al.

    to put this in perspective, the GDP of Ghana is about 31.13 billion. Ghana is growing pretty well right now, but Africa as a whole largely has not[averaging iirc, 1.9% since the 50s]. Assuming a 2% jump in GDP from a lack of subsidies, which is reasonable considering the average African economy is >50% agriculture you're looking at a difference over 40 years of about +30 billion per year GDP.

    Which is to say that the estimates i've heard that state that the 19 billion of subsidies that the U.S. give each year have cause roughly 180 billion dollars in damage to third world countries per year seems pretty reasonable to me.

    edit: There is a book by Jeffery Sachs "The End of Poverty" which is very good which describes the effect I am talking about.
    ronya wrote: »
    Isn't the analysis Zakkiel posted based on a global diet, not just American? I mean, American dietary distortion obviously plays a part, but have American corn subsidies distorted world dietary patterns too? O_o

    Short answer: Yes it does.

  • electricitylikesmeelectricitylikesme Registered User regular
    edited June 2009
    Goumindong wrote: »
    Not to be down on you, but pretty much all bread has sugar in it. You add it to feed the yeast.
    Not to be down on you, but no it does not. Grains, fucking all of them, have natural sugars enough to feed the yeast. You do not need to add anything. Sugars that are added are for taste, not to feed the yeast.

    This is one reason why we have had bread before globalization allowed sugar to be widely shipped all over the world.
    Yeast growth is greatly helped by adding sugar, which is why most bread recipes have a little in it.

    I'm just saying, it's not extreme OHMIGODCAPITALISM to find "sugar" listed as an ingredient in bread.

    Of course corn syrup is pretty WTF.

    Dis' wrote: »
    Cancer is when cells stop letting the body mooch off their hard work - clearly a community of like-minded cells should isolate themselves and do the best job each can do, even if the rest of the body collapses!
  • ThanatosThanatos Registered User regular
    edited June 2009
    ronya wrote: »
    Eh, Thanatos. I'd love to see your view on the two questions I mentioned earlier: why the US corn lobby is as strong as it is, and whether removing the subsidy would eliminate the bulk of such problems. (i.e., is it the main problem, or are you just using it as an example?)

    So far, three separate hypotheses on the first question in this thread (Iowa, regulation fail, Nixon fail), and no answers to the second.
    The reason it started was because of Nixon's Secretary of Agriculture--Earl Butz--and the food megacorps. The reason it has continued is because of the Iowa caucus and the food megacorps.

  • tsmvengytsmvengy Registered User regular
    edited June 2009
    Thanatos wrote: »
    zakkiel wrote: »
    Thanatos wrote: »
    Quid wrote: »
    Or they could grow something besides corn.

    I hear you can do that.
    Would it make a profit? Is the midwest good for those other crops?
    Midwestern soil isn't good for anything. It used to be incredibly fertile, and farmers used to know how to rotate crops in order to maintain a layer of topsoil, and they used to know how to use natural fertilizers in small amounts in order to supplement what was already there.

    Now, all they know how to do is replace what topsoil used to do with a shitload of fertilizer, which is necessary because corn is such a fertilizer-intensive product. It is fucking horrible for the soil, unlike any number of other crops they could be growing, but it's so easy to genetically engineer that it's what the food megacorps like to use. They in turn lobby the government to maintain the massive subsidies, create frankencows, frankenfish, frankenpigs, and frankenchickens that survive on it (instead of what they're supposed to eat), and saddle us with frankenfood that is fucking awful for us, but is incredibly calorie-dense, and doesn't fill us up.

    It's fucking terrible all around.

    And one of the two guys they were talking to in that interview with the filmmakers is Michael Pollan, who wrote The Omnivore's Dilemma, which is a fantastic fucking book if you want to understand this stuff.
    My bullshit alarm is definitely going off on this rhapsodizing over the good old days when Midwestern farmers were one with nature and took care of the soil. See the Dust Bowl.

    Also, I would love to see your evidence that "frankenfoods" are awful for us.
    I'm not saying they used to be "one with nature" or any bullshit like that; I'm saying that they used to take at least the bare minimal step of rotating their fucking crops; they don't even do that anymore.

    And are you trying to say that having high-fructose corn syrup in practically everything (there is corn in my fucking peanuts) isn't bad for us? That making bread with HFCS instead of, I don't know, bread isn't the best? HFCS are the simplest of the simple sugars, and yeah, while they're maybe not any worse for you than cane sugar, who the hell would expect to find cane sugar in wheat bread? I know I wouldn't.

    This also goes for the beef which, as I've pointed out, because it's raised on corn has a bunch of marbling (which is what they base USDA grades around, the more the better) which is what causes such high saturated fat content in beef, in addition to creating an environment rich with opportunities for bacterial infections.

    And by "frankenfoods," I'm not referring specifically to GM food (though, in the case of corn, there isn't a non-GM version of it, so there, yeah, they happen to be the same), but to the things we make from corn, like your average meal from McDonald's.

    Farmers in the midwest do rotate crops in order to replenish the soil. Soybeans and Corn.

    SoybeansUSharvestedacresyieldsprodFig1edw.jpg

    CornGrainProductionFigure107_03_25jgbedw.jpg

    steam_sig.png
  • ronyaronya Arrrrrrf. the ivory tower's basementRegistered User regular
    edited June 2009
    Goumindong wrote: »
    ronya wrote: »
    Nonetheless, the costs fall primarily on your taxpayers

    No, they don't. Because the costs to third world nations are exponential while the costs to American Tax Payers are linear. I.E. Third world nations which need agricultural production to both feed their people[and can't due, not a small amount due to our subsidies] lose growth. This means they lose a few % per year. This compounds over 40-50 years to simply fuck them.

    Growth doesn't work that way. Where does the cumulative percentage growth come from? Accumulation of human capital, infrastructure, capital - it doesn't magically automatically appear out of nowhere.

    And agricultural exports are very bad are contributing to cumulative growth. There's a 'perfect storm' of reasons why this is so: exporting agricultural produce essentially means, okay, we'll sell these bananas for those US dollars, with which we'll buy Western industrial products. In other words: your industries and service sectors remain permanently unable to grow because your domestic consumers keep buying from overseas (it is for this exact reason that many oil exporters remain infrastructurally poor despite hilariously high GDP numbers).

    Labor-intensive agriculture doesn't result in human capital accumulation. Build a factory and after ten years you've got a couple thousand semiskilled factory workers to do something with. Build a farm and after ten years you've still got unskilled laborers, same as before - the fertilizers and Green Revolution techniques are all imported from richer nations, after all. It doesn't lead anywhere.

    The margins in agriculture are crappy: unlike oil, farming is extremely competitive and margins are hence lean, even with massive subsidies. Purchases of consumer goods and investments in the future (college educations, for instance) remain low, and these are where all the shiny growth numbers come from.

    And agriculture means your population is spread out - making it difficult to provide schools, public housing, water/electricity/telecom infrastructure, hospitals. Family planning remains nonexistent and population growth keeps accelerating to keep up with what little GDP growth that does happen. In short: everyone remains poor, generation after generation.

    Agriculture is not the route to accelerating growth. Industrialization is the route to accelerating growth, preferably export-led industrialization. Foreign subsidies of agricultural imports make the transition sharper and more painful, but they also make the transition dramatically faster.

    It's also worth remembering that we are discussing exports - the link between American subsidies and third world domestic economies - meaning that domestic production for domestic consumption generally remains unaffected (to see why, think about exchange rates; this remains true even if exchange rates are fixed). A subsidy on exports is a subsidy on imports. What are Americans buying from the third world?
    Goumindong wrote: »
    ronya wrote: »
    Isn't the analysis Zakkiel posted based on a global diet, not just American? I mean, American dietary distortion obviously plays a part, but have American corn subsidies distorted world dietary patterns too? O_o

    Short answer: Yes it does.

    Do explain.

  • HeartlashHeartlash Registered User regular
    edited June 2009
    ronya wrote: »
    It's also worth remembering that we are discussing exports - the link between American subsidies and third world domestic economies - meaning that domestic production for domestic consumption generally remains unaffected (to see why, think about exchange rates; this remains true even if exchange rates are fixed).

    I'm a bit confused by this. If America sells corn to Mexico at an astoundingly low rate (due to US Government subsidies), undercutting Mexican farmers and thus putting them out of a job, how does that leave the Mexico's domestic production and consumption unaffected?

    The film also explores a number of Mexican farmers who illegally immigrate to the US since farming in Mexico is no longer profitable. Many of them work for virtually nothing and it strongly implies that the companies they work for have deals with local authorities that cause 10-15 workers to be deported every week while the others go untouched. This preserves the image of law and order while not harming the productivity of these farms.

  • DmanDman Registered User
    edited June 2009
    I have not seen Food Inc. But I have seen The World According to Monsanto.

    I always criticized people who refused to eat GM food because it was "bad for them".

    This was because I assumed GM food's had been genetically modified to be more resistant to bugs, or larger, or other desirable traits. It turns out I was wrong. Foods are modified primarily to make them resistant to pesticides and herbicides (or the main marketed ones at least).

    GM foods go hand in hand with pesticide and herbicide use.

    So I agree, Monsanto is not doing what I had hoped to see from genetics, they don't care about farmers, food or the environment, only about selling as much overpriced GM seed and pesticide as possible.

  • SaammielSaammiel Registered User regular
    edited June 2009
    ronya wrote: »
    And agriculture means your population is spread out - making it difficult to provide schools, public housing, water/electricity/telecom infrastructure, hospitals. Family planning remains nonexistent and population growth keeps accelerating to keep up with what little GDP growth that does happen. In short: everyone remains poor, generation after generation.

    Agriculture is not the route to accelerating growth. Industrialization is the route to accelerating growth, preferably export-led industrialization. Foreign subsidies of agricultural imports make the transition sharper and more painful, but they also make the transition dramatically faster.

    While I would tend to agree with you when it comes to those societies where massive industrialization sans agriculture is possible due to a relatively stable underlying culture, I think where it falls apart is Africa. It simply isn't teneble for them to engage in an accelerated industrialization sans agriculture I don't think. It would likely require foreign capital investment which companies aren't going to do due to risk. So in that case, I think the American agricultural subsidies (as well as aid) are actively harmful. They prevent a nascent market from emerging where there otherwise might be one. But feel free to counterdict this, I'll readily admit I haven't done a ton of research into it.

    Also, the family farmer isn't much more noble than big bad Monsanto. As a voting demographic they support all the rent seeking behavior that the people on this forum deplore. So they are culpable for things being the way they are. They hold a tremendous amount of sway in rural agricultural areas, and by extension on congressmen from states with large rural areas.

  • ronyaronya Arrrrrrf. the ivory tower's basementRegistered User regular
    edited June 2009
    Heartlash wrote: »
    ronya wrote: »
    It's also worth remembering that we are discussing exports - the link between American subsidies and third world domestic economies - meaning that domestic production for domestic consumption generally remains unaffected (to see why, think about exchange rates; this remains true even if exchange rates are fixed).

    I'm a bit confused by this. If America sells corn to Mexico at an astoundingly low rate (due to US Government subsidies), undercutting Mexican farmers and thus putting them out of a job, how does that leave the Mexico's domestic production and consumption unaffected?

    I was referring to Goumindong's allusion to agricultural production intended to feed the domestic population alone - subsistence-level agriculture, in short. This is more of an African than Mexican problem, I wager. In this case, even if America tried to sell corn to such farmers, the farmers won't have enough US dollars to buy it. You need to export to be able to buy imports. The domestic producers are only undercut if the corn is being distributed for free, which is not happening.

    In retrospect I should have made this clearer, though. Sorry. :?

    As for Mexico, well, Mexican corn farmers go out of a job, while all of Mexico's other export industries cheer them on. The United States is subsidising them now, after all ("a subsidy on exports is a..." you get the idea). Apparently Mexico's GDP is only 3.9% agriculture, in any case.

    To deal with the associated unemployment it is usually hoped that industries or other agricultural products will step up - driven by increased exports; Mexico has a comparative advantage in "labor-intensive crops such as fruits, nuts, vegetables, coffee and sugar cane", Wikipedia tells me - which might not happen due to structural problems like urban crime or badly-designed protectionism. Which brings us to this:
    The film also explores a number of Mexican farmers who illegally immigrate to the US since farming in Mexico is no longer profitable. Many of them work for virtually nothing and it strongly implies that the companies they work for have deals with local authorities that cause 10-15 workers to be deported every week while the others go untouched. This preserves the image of law and order while not harming the productivity of these farms.

    In which case I say that there are massive structural economic problems in Mexico, and you're blaming the wrong target. An economy which cannot provide jobs that are better than risking death and injury sneaking into the United States has much bigger problems than the difficulties of one industry.

    I reiterate again that I'm not supporting this policy, but I want to point out that the costs are borne primarily by the US, not the third world, particularly in the long run.

  • clsCorwinclsCorwin Registered User
    edited June 2009
    I had this Professional Ethics class last year, and we did a discussion on whistle blowing. Our teacher had showed us this video of some journalists doing a story on detrimental effects of milk that came from cows using BGH (bovine growth hormone), or something similar to that. They did all their resaearch, had an awesome expose, which their network promptly edited and cut and changed so that it seemed like the harm may be a possibility rather than, stop drinking that fucking milk!

    Turns out Monsanto, who was involved with the milk, also happened to own a nice chunk of their network. Assholes.

  • Hexmage-PAHexmage-PA Registered User regular
    edited June 2009
    Thanatos wrote: »
    The reason it has continued is because of the Iowa caucus and the food megacorps.

    So...the answer is to destroy Iowa?

    Pel wrote:
    Sure, you repel Godzilla the first 5 times he comes at you but then some giant mutant pillbug hits you from below or Polly the radioactive pterodactyl dive bombs your metropolis or Zippy the laser breathing gigarabbit strikes at mach 5 and you can't even hit the thing with conventional weaponry and everyone is back to square one.
  • RandomEngyRandomEngy Registered User regular
    edited June 2009
    zakkiel wrote: »
    Also, I would love to see your evidence that "frankenfoods" are awful for us.

    <pictures of margarine and trans fats>

    Most margarines have a tiny amount of trans-fats, while replacing a whole lot of saturated fat with unsaturated fat, which is better for you. Last time I checked I was not able to find any health studies that concluded that margarine was actually worse for you than butter.

    Also, I do believe the term "Frankenfoods" refers to GM food only.

    Profile -> Signature Settings -> Hide signatures always. Then you don't have to read this worthless text anymore.
  • ronyaronya Arrrrrrf. the ivory tower's basementRegistered User regular
    edited June 2009
    Hexmage-PA wrote: »
    Thanatos wrote: »
    The reason it has continued is because of the Iowa caucus and the food megacorps.

    So...the answer is to destroy Iowa?

    I say we take off and nuke Iowa from orbit. It's the only way to be sure.

  • TalleyrandTalleyrand Registered User regular
    edited June 2009
    Hexmage-PA wrote: »
    Thanatos wrote: »
    The reason it has continued is because of the Iowa caucus and the food megacorps.

    So...the answer is to destroy Iowa?

    Or we could just decide to hold the Iowa Caucus somewhere besides Iowa.

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • BarcardiBarcardi All the Wizards Registered User regular
    edited June 2009
    clsCorwin wrote: »
    I had this Professional Ethics class last year, and we did a discussion on whistle blowing. Our teacher had showed us this video of some journalists doing a story on detrimental effects of milk that came from cows using BGH (bovine growth hormone), or something similar to that. They did all their resaearch, had an awesome expose, which their network promptly edited and cut and changed so that it seemed like the harm may be a possibility rather than, stop drinking that fucking milk!

    Turns out Monsanto, who was involved with the milk, also happened to own a nice chunk of their network. Assholes.

    makes me wonder if monsanto would to try to limit the play this movie gets, or if they already have

    when does this movie come out anyway?

  • 2 Marcus 2 Ravens2 Marcus 2 Ravens Registered User regular
    edited June 2009
    I may be mistaken, and completely out of line, but a lot of people are talking about the need to increase food production in order to feed more people. Isn't the amount of available food and population growth inevitably connected? With any other species on the planet, if the amount of available food goes up, then the population goes up as well. If the amount of food is steady, and the rest of the ecosystem is stable, then the population pretty much stays the same. Food goes down, population goes down. If we're constantly increasing food production, which we've been doing, or trying to do for ten thousand years or so, then should we be surprised that population goes up? I'm pretty sure that our population only really started to climb after the "agricultural revolution" which was when our food production also started to drastically increase.

    I know this is pretty much taking capitalism out of the equation, which I'll surely get shit on for, but shouldn't we be trying to eventually come to a plateau in food production, instead of making more and more food, destroying more and more of the world?

  • ronyaronya Arrrrrrf. the ivory tower's basementRegistered User regular
    edited June 2009
    I may be mistaken, and completely out of line, but a lot of people are talking about the need to increase food production in order to feed more people. Isn't the amount of available food and population growth inevitably connected? With any other species on the planet, if the amount of available food goes up, then the population goes up as well. If the amount of food is steady, and the rest of the ecosystem is stable, then the population pretty much stays the same. Food goes down, population goes down.

    Available food only places an upper limit on population as long that the people who are already born can't get food and are hence dying; obviously, this is no longer the limiting factor for much of the world. Family planning and such; people choose not to have children. This is not something other species do.

  • 2 Marcus 2 Ravens2 Marcus 2 Ravens Registered User regular
    edited June 2009
    ronya wrote: »
    I may be mistaken, and completely out of line, but a lot of people are talking about the need to increase food production in order to feed more people. Isn't the amount of available food and population growth inevitably connected? With any other species on the planet, if the amount of available food goes up, then the population goes up as well. If the amount of food is steady, and the rest of the ecosystem is stable, then the population pretty much stays the same. Food goes down, population goes down.

    Available food only places an upper limit on population as long that the people who are already born can't get food and are hence dying; obviously, this is no longer the limiting factor for much of the world. Family planning and such; people choose not to have children. This is not something other species do.

    Wait, how is it not a limiting factor for much of the world? I'm not saying that family planning/birth control aren't going to help, but if there's only so much food, there can only be so many people.

  • ronyaronya Arrrrrrf. the ivory tower's basementRegistered User regular
    edited June 2009
    ronya wrote: »
    I may be mistaken, and completely out of line, but a lot of people are talking about the need to increase food production in order to feed more people. Isn't the amount of available food and population growth inevitably connected? With any other species on the planet, if the amount of available food goes up, then the population goes up as well. If the amount of food is steady, and the rest of the ecosystem is stable, then the population pretty much stays the same. Food goes down, population goes down.

    Available food only places an upper limit on population as long that the people who are already born can't get food and are hence dying; obviously, this is no longer the limiting factor for much of the world. Family planning and such; people choose not to have children. This is not something other species do.

    Wait, how is it not a limiting factor for much of the world? I'm not saying that family planning/birth control aren't going to help, but if there's only so much food, there can only be so many people.

    Yes, food sets an upper limit, but in many rich nations there are fewer people than the amount of food available can support. Population size is instead set by other factors, like parents thinking: how many children can I afford to send to college? instead of: how many children can I afford to feed? And the first limit is much more restrictive than the second.

  • PataPata Registered User regular
    edited June 2009
    Talleyrand wrote: »
    Hexmage-PA wrote: »
    Thanatos wrote: »
    The reason it has continued is because of the Iowa caucus and the food megacorps.

    So...the answer is to destroy Iowa?

    Or we could just decide to hold the Iowa Caucus somewhere besides Iowa.

    Make the the Hawaii Caucus.

    Spoiler:
  • GoumindongGoumindong Registered User regular
    edited June 2009
    ronya wrote: »
    Goumindong wrote: »
    ronya wrote: »
    Nonetheless, the costs fall primarily on your taxpayers

    No, they don't. Because the costs to third world nations are exponential while the costs to American Tax Payers are linear. I.E. Third world nations which need agricultural production to both feed their people[and can't due, not a small amount due to our subsidies] lose growth. This means they lose a few % per year. This compounds over 40-50 years to simply fuck them.

    Growth doesn't work that way. Where does the cumulative percentage growth come from? Accumulation of human capital, infrastructure, capital - it doesn't magically automatically appear out of nowhere.

    And agricultural exports are very bad are contributing to cumulative growth.

    Meanwhile, here in the real world, when you sell anything, and get more money for it and are able to save or spend that money[and by extension other people are able to save or spend that money], that is growth and when it continues to happen because you can expand your production due to the increased amount of capital coming into the area, its cumulative.

    So short answer, yes it fucking works like that. What do you think that people in third would nations would just burn the extra money they made from exporting food rather than buying fertilizer, planting nitrogen fixing trees, building irrigation, and buying industrial equipment?
    Mexico has a comparative advantage in "labor-intensive crops such as fruits, nuts, vegetables, coffee and sugar cane", Wikipedia tells me - which might not happen due to structural problems like urban crime or badly-designed protectionism.

    Good fucking lord no. Comparative advantages take into account structural problems like ubran crime... which should have no effect on labor intensive crops in the first place. And protectionism benefits the industries protected and the local economy in general[so long as you don't count it as a factor for foreign protectionism] The things that stop Mexico from exporting these things is that U.S. protectionist policies. Otherwise known as sugar subsidies and tariffs.
    As for Mexico, well, Mexican corn farmers go out of a job, while all of Mexico's other export industries cheer them on

    NO NO NO NO. Mexican consumers cheer them on, not Mexico's exports. That shit does nothing to Mexico's exports except make all the people who would have been making and exporting corn maxing and exporting something else(or doing nothing), possibly driving down prices as competition increases(though it would be maginal in most cases).

    The only people who will explicitly gain from this[aside from consumers] are the people in whatever industry that has the corn producers subsidized out of.(and even then, probably only marginally) and the people getting subsidized.
    Labor-intensive agriculture doesn't result in human capital accumulation.

    This is the stupidest thing i have ever read. ALL LABOR results in capital accumulation so long as the wages for that labor minus the consumption of the producer is greater than their capital depreciation. And just so everyone is abundantly clear about what happens when the U.S. subsidizes agricultural products and imposes tariffs on their import. The prices of the good goes down, reducing the wages of the people in question, necessarily negatively impacting their capital accumulation rate[/b]

    A subsidy on exports is a subsidy on imports.

    Earlier i said that something was the stupidest thing i have ever read. I take that back. The subsidy may reduce nominal prices of some incoming goods[as foreign producers shift into more competitive markets], but since it requires taxing to do so, real prices rise.

    Lets be absolutely clear here. For the most part, when you subsidize a good that does not have external benefits associated with it, everyone loses except the people consuming that good, and the people producing that good. Everyone else pays for it in some way.

    Except in this case there are external costs associated with it, so the consumers don't even benefit[in the absence of corn subsidies food in general would be more expensive for U.S. consumers, but it would be better for us and non corn products would be cheaper than they are now.] which just means that everyone is fucked except the corn lobby. The only question is "how fucked?" and the answer is "its third world nations that pay for it most"
    Do explain.

    Well, besides the cultural norm spreading there is this little thing called "the global market" where people can buy and sell all sorts of goods. And when you change the prices of those goods the buying habits of the people will change... And the United States is changing the prices of those goods...

    How much might be an argument to make, but that they've been distorted it is not even a question.

  • ronyaronya Arrrrrrf. the ivory tower's basementRegistered User regular
    edited June 2009
    Spoiler:

    Dude, chill. Anyway...

    Wow, that was a very confused view of growth. Um. Where do I start.

    I'll try and pick apart your core misconceptions and see if I can get get through to you. I'll start with the "stupidest things you've ever read":
    Labor-intensive agriculture doesn't result in human capital accumulation.
    This is the stupidest thing i have ever read. ALL LABOR results in capital accumulation so long as the wages for that labor minus the consumption of the producer is greater than their capital depreciation.

    Uh, no. Your definition of capital is ripped from accounting; you need the one from development econ. Human capital is the potential productivity of labor, and labor-intensive agriculture doesn't make labor more productive, principally because all the interesting methods to grow crops using an endless amount of human muscle were already discovered a long time ago.

    You're thinking of this from the wrong perspective. It is true from the perspective of an individual worker that all work makes him richer, less his 'depreciation' due to age or whatever. This is why this definition is used in finance and corporate accounting. But as far economics goes, we are not thinking of a given individual worker but the average worker for that industry, and a thousand workers who turn 30 with a tidy pile of savings to invest* - individual capital - merely means that a thousand fresh workers turn 18 and join the industry. Average human capital doesn't change, and doesn't accumulate.

    The only way to increase (economic) human capital is education and other such social conditions: career training, work experience, basic healthcare. Work experience is why developing countries grant tax holidays; it makes initial investment profitable, and a few thousand workers get to learn the ropes; thereafter labor productivity for that industry will have risen enough to make it profitable even under tax. But labor-intensive agriculture doesn't benefit from this; it is, virtually by definition, focused on cheap unskilled labor. Ten years later you just have essentially the same workforce.

    * It might be tempting to suggest that this is where cumulative investment comes from, but this doesn't work, either - history demonstrates that a multitude of factors nullify this effect. Population growth outpaces such savings, and the margins of labor-intensive agriculture are too lean for workers to have a substantial sum to put away anyway. See my original post.
    A subsidy on exports is a subsidy on imports.

    Earlier i said that something was the stupidest thing i have ever read. I take that back. The subsidy may reduce nominal prices of some incoming goods[as foreign producers shift into more competitive markets], but since it requires taxing to do so, real prices rise.

    Yeah, no.

    Outline of the subsidy/tariff effect: the mechanism is the exchange rate* - subsidizing an export means that more people want your currency to buy that export. The value of your currency rises. Imports therefore become that much cheaper to your domestic consumers: a de facto subsidy. That's it. Hence: a subsidy on exports is a subsidy on imports, there is no 'may' in it. Forex markets are liquid enough to ensure that this is always the case.

    As for tax... I'll await your brilliant illustration of why tax leads a rise in the aggregate real price level (protip: it does not). Aggregate, mind you. I hope you're not going to commit that macro/micro error again (yes a tax will increase the real price of one good. This is not the real price level).

    * actually it applies even with a fixed exchange rate, in which case it just works through the money supply instead. Identical effect.
    Do explain.

    Well, besides the cultural norm spreading there is this little thing called "the global market" where people can buy and sell all sorts of goods. And when you change the prices of those goods the buying habits of the people will change... And the United States is changing the prices of those goods...

    How much might be an argument to make, but that they've been distorted it is not even a question.

    Astonishingly, I agree it's distorted. I however think you're being a pedantic ass by pretending that this distortion of global dietary habits is significant at any economic level - "How much" is precisely the point. The United States may be a superpower, but it's not that large, thanks - that there are 95% percent of us on Earth elsewhere means that the global market distortion will have to be pretty damn big to shift global habits. Subsidies are offset partially by shifts in the exchange rate (see: above), among other factors. e.g., the United States's subsidy on corn is enough to shift the US sweetener market towards corn syrup, but it hasn't brought the rest of the world with it.

  • GoumindongGoumindong Registered User regular
    edited June 2009
    ronya wrote: »
    Human capital is the potential productivity of labor, and labor-intensive agriculture doesn't make labor more productive, principally because all the interesting methods to grow crops using an endless amount of human muscle were already discovered a long time ago.

    I don't think you understand what is happening here. You are literally claiming that people with more money cannot possibly invest it in anything. Do you understand how retarded that is?

    Besides the obvious problems that the more effective labor techniques, like crop rotation, nitrogen based fertilizers and nitrogen fixing trees have been discovered does not meant that people have the available resources to USE them, because the fertilizer is too expensive for them to use because crop prices are so low... because of agriculture subsidies in developed nations and tariffs to importing[among other things, like necessary consumption levels].
    * It might be tempting to suggest that this is where cumulative investment comes from, but this doesn't work, either - history demonstrates that a multitude of factors nullify this effect. Population growth outpaces such savings, and the margins of labor-intensive agriculture are too lean for workers to have a substantial sum to put away anyway. See my original post.

    Maybe you don't get what is happening but the subsidies for U.S. corn producers lowers the margins for labor intensive agriculture where they would otherwise have a comparative advantage
    As for tax... I'll await your brilliant illustration of why tax leads a rise in the aggregate real price level (protip: it does not). Aggregate, mind you. I hope you're not going to commit that macro/micro error again (yes a tax will increase the real price of one good. This is not the real price level).

    A tax, an income tax, reduces incomes. REAL price level(for consumers) is normal to incomes. In short, the tax is on everything and as such all prices rise because it increases the real price of the one good that was taxed increased, which was everything.[there are two ways to see it, either incomes were reduced, which increases the price level on everything(I.E. purchasing power went down), or everything was taxed, which increases the price level on everything]
    The United States may be a superpower, but it's not that large, thanks - that there are 95% percent of us on Earth elsewhere means that the global market distortion will have to be pretty damn big to shift global habits.

    There are 95% of you, but you don't matter as much. The IMF estimates that the United States was 23.4% of WORLD GDP in 2008, combined with the EU, which is another massive agriculture subsidizer we make up half of the worlds GDP. The U.S. alone had roughly 126 billion in agriculture of various sorts during that time. This meant that the U.S. alone made more food than everything any non-oil producing African nation made. The EU had roughly 380 billion in agriculture production. [And if a simple quote from Wikipedia will suffice(cited from the NAO, but the link is dead) "The Common Agricultural Policy (CAP) is a system of European Union agricultural subsidies and programs. It represents 48% of the EU's budget, €49.8 billion in 2006 (up from €48.5 billion in 2005)."] To put this in perspective, combined, the EU and U.S. subsidizes agriculture to the effect of a greater amount of raw money than the GDP of the bottom 117 nations.

    No, i am sure the price level set by that market means nothing

    Look, Jeffery Sachs is not a fringe economist. And while his prescription also calls for capital infusions via direct aid packages that does not mean that the subsidy and tariff effects are not large and important.

    See also: Joseph Stiglitz for more information about the negative externalities imposed on developing nations due to these policies.
    subsidizing an export means that more people want your currency to buy that export

    Only if demand for your product is elastic(or if there were zero exports of the good before the subsidy which is not a behavior that is typically seen). If its inelastic demand for your currency would actually drop(since the increase in exports would be made up for by the lower prices). Are these foods really elastic goods?

    edit: The survey says no, probably not [except for a very few nations for beverages and cigarettes]. This means that the quantity increases will not offset the price reductions and the demand for the currency will go down.

    edit: I know its handy to assume infinite elasticity for world imports and purchases for looking at tariff and subsidy effects, but the world can only work like that as an approximation for what domestic markets see, it does not work like that when you're talking about the entire world(if you were looking for an easy approximation you would set domestic production as perfectly elastic and then look at your revenues to check for currency demand based on world demand rates). And it certainly does not work like that when you're talking about so much raw volume of the market.

  • ronyaronya Arrrrrrf. the ivory tower's basementRegistered User regular
    edited June 2009
    Goumindong wrote: »
    ronya wrote: »
    Human capital is the potential productivity of labor, and labor-intensive agriculture doesn't make labor more productive, principally because all the interesting methods to grow crops using an endless amount of human muscle were already discovered a long time ago.

    I don't think you understand what is happening here. You are literally claiming that people with more money cannot possibly invest it in anything. Do you understand how retarded that is?

    You are still failing to grasp the difference between an individual's household capital and national aggregate capital, never mind the difference between human and other types of capital. I am not claiming that people with more money cannot invest it in the future: this is something that individual households do, but it doesn't apply to national aggregates. You're committing a fallacy of composition.

    You seem to have read Sach's The End of Poverty, so I'll pick an example from there and try to explain this as patiently as I can.
    Saving

    The household might decide to consume only three out of the four tons of maize, and take one ton to market. With the $150, the household invests in livestock (perhaps chickens or sheep or a bull or dairy cow). The livestock generate a new stream of income, whether from improved food yields by using the bull for manure and animal traction, or the cow for sales of milk, or the animals for meat, eggs, or hides. In economic jargon, the saving has led to capital accumulation (in the form of livestock), which in turn has raised household productivity.

    All this is right - for that household. However, from a national-growth perspective, all it has done is outbid another household for that livestock. National output does not change. You're just swapping cows from one farm to the other.

    The only way to affect national output is to argue: perhaps this household is better than that household at extracting output from this livestock (returns to specialization, etc. etc.). However, like I pointed out earlier, labor-intensive agriculture is very bad at providing such returns: it is, by definition, reliant on cheap unskilled labor rather than capital.

    To reiterate: labor does not bring national growth. Increasing the productivity of said labor brings national growth.
    Besides the obvious problems that the more effective labor techniques, like crop rotation, nitrogen based fertilizers and nitrogen fixing trees have been discovered does not meant that people have the available resources to USE them, because the fertilizer is too expensive for them to use because crop prices are so low... because of agriculture subsidies in developed nations and tariffs to importing[among other things, like necessary consumption levels].

    If only development economics was so simple - we could just hand out loans and everyone would switch to capital-intensive agriculture? Right? They're only not switching because they can't afford to switch?

    No. They're using labor-intensive agriculture because domestic labor is cheap, cheaper than using capital-intensive methods. That's it. There are these things called loans which allow people to buy capital if they can get profit out of it; even if individual farmers cannot get a loan at a decent rate (due to instability, lack of collateral, whatever), you can't plausibly argue that giant US-based multinational corporations can't get such loans, and these MNCs grow numerous crops across the third world.

    Once you grasp this point, it should be obvious the tariff argument is fallacious: if capital-intensive agriculture were more cost-effective than labor-intensive methods under no subsidies and tariffs, it's still going to be more cost effective than labor under some subsidies and tariffs. It may be that both become unprofitable, but you're making the o_O assertion that tariffs make one physical method more cost-effective than the other. Uh, no. The relevant differences between the third and first world is in infrastructural and human capital: that unskilled labor is cheaper in the third than first, and skilled relatively more expensive in the third than first, and the prerequisite infrastructure (highways, electricity, fuel) for switching to machinery doesn't yet exist. These obviously change relative real costs. Subsidies and tariffs don't. o_O
    * It might be tempting to suggest that this is where cumulative investment comes from, but this doesn't work, either - history demonstrates that a multitude of factors nullify this effect. Population growth outpaces such savings, and the margins of labor-intensive agriculture are too lean for workers to have a substantial sum to put away anyway. See my original post.

    Maybe you don't get what is happening but the subsidies for U.S. corn producers lowers the margins for labor intensive agriculture where they would otherwise have a comparative advantage

    Yes. So? The subsidy provides more benefits to the average thirdworlder than losses. I did already say that corn farmers elsewhere will go out of a job.

    Regardless, the individual laborer's share of profit, even without the distortion imposed by subsidies, is already marginal - simply because there is a lot of such labor.
    As for tax... I'll await your brilliant illustration of why tax leads a rise in the aggregate real price level (protip: it does not). Aggregate, mind you. I hope you're not going to commit that macro/micro error again (yes a tax will increase the real price of one good. This is not the real price level).

    A tax, an income tax, reduces incomes. REAL price level(for consumers) is normal to incomes. In short, the tax is on everything and as such all prices rise because it increases the real price of the one good that was taxed increased, which was everything.[there are two ways to see it, either incomes were reduced, which increases the price level on everything(I.E. purchasing power went down), or everything was taxed, which increases the price level on everything]

    ... did you miss your macroeconomics lectures? You're committing the fallacy of composition everywhere. This is a pretty basic macroeconomic concept.

    Tax is spent - in this case, on a subsidy (you're the one who invoked equivalence to begin with, so I'm going to assume it holds). Stop looking at individual households and follow the money. If I take a dollar from everyone else, everyone else's income decreases, but now I have a lot of dollars: there is no change in the general level of real income. While very many people now have a decreased income, I must by definition now have a much larger income, large enough to offset everyone else's impact on the real price level: where else would the dollars go?

    This is a simple accounting identity - under the equivalence of tax and spending, it is flatly not possible for a tax to change the real price level or the real income level. A tax imposes exactly two effects: a wealth transfer (from everyone else to corn farmers) and a deadweight loss (market distortion). Neither of these change real prices nor incomes.
    Look, Jeffery Sachs is not a fringe economist. And while his prescription also calls for capital infusions via direct aid packages that does not mean that the subsidy and tariff effects are not large and important.

    See also: Joseph Stiglitz for more information about the negative externalities imposed on developing nations due to these policies.

    I'm happy that you're reading economics books, but you seem to be reading only the popular texts and hence walking away with a bizarre misunderstanding of the underlying theory. I'll engage with your assertions about the finer points of international trade after you've corrected your core misconceptions; otherwise, I don't think I can get very far!
    subsidizing an export means that more people want your currency to buy that export

    Only if demand for your product is elastic(or if there were zero exports of the good before the subsidy which is not a behavior that is typically seen). If its inelastic demand for your currency would actually drop(since the increase in exports would be made up for by the lower prices). Are these foods really elastic goods?

    edit: The survey says no, probably not [except for a very few nations for beverages and cigarettes]. This means that the quantity increases will not offset the price reductions and the demand for the currency will go down.

    edit: I know its handy to assume infinite elasticity for world imports and purchases for looking at tariff and subsidy effects, but the world can only work like that as an approximation for what domestic markets see, it does not work like that when you're talking about the entire world(if you were looking for an easy approximation you would set domestic production as perfectly elastic and then look at your revenues to check for currency demand based on world demand rates). And it certainly does not work like that when you're talking about so much raw volume of the market.

    Are you really arguing that export demand is inelastic and then saying that subsidized cheap American corn is flooding the third world? O_o Can you even say that with a straight face?

    Look, elasticity of global demand is irrelevant. We're talking law of one price, here - America is not the sole exporter of corn. It doesn't matter whether the global demand is inelastic; if the US makes US corn cheaper, then countries which would otherwise import Mexican corn, import US corn, and keep doing so until nobody else sells corn, or export demand has risen until prices equalise again - and, again, the US is not the sole exporter of corn, so we can see that export demand is elastic. It is for this reason that elasticity is taken as given: it's pretty dang obvious!

  • GoumindongGoumindong Registered User regular
    edited June 2009
    ronya wrote: »


    You are still failing to grasp the difference between an individual's household capital and national aggregate capital, never mind the difference between human and other types of capital. I am not claiming that people with more money cannot invest it in the future: this is something that individual households do, but it doesn't apply to national aggregates. You're committing a fallacy of composition.

    So now you're saying that if individuals have more money they can invest it, but if you add all of those increases together you don't get an increase in capital.

    By what magical system does 1+1 = 0?

    You're also failing to understand that the only one harping about human capital is you, people with more money can invest it wherever they need to. If the prices for their goods are higher they will have more money.

    edit: look, no one is treating national economies as firms. All they're saying is that an increase in prices for export goods in developed nations will increase the production that those nations. Its not "an increase in prices for one firm in the nation" its not "an increase in capital for one firm in the nation" its "when prices rise the producers who attain those price increases reap the benefits" This is a macro level examination with a micro level explanation because some people do not seem to realize that our subsidies which reduce world prices for food harm developing nations which would otherwise be making and selling food on the world market but have no capital with which to develop other industries[which are also typically highly tariff protected, E.G. Textiles in Europe] that would be the typical response to the loss of a competitive advantage in a particular field.

    All this is right - for that household. However, from a national-growth perspective, all it has done is outbid another household for that livestock. National output does not change. You're just swapping cows from one farm to the other.

    The only way to affect national output is to argue: perhaps this household is better than that household at extracting output from this livestock (returns to specialization, etc. etc.). However, like I pointed out earlier, labor-intensive agriculture is very bad at providing such returns: it is, by definition, reliant on cheap unskilled labor rather than capital.

    To reiterate: labor does not bring national growth. Increasing the productivity of said labor brings national growth.

    You realize that you just claimed trade was a zero sum game right? You are overlooking the fact that the single person example is not the only change that is happening, its an example of the change for the individual that makes up the aggregate change of increased production.

    P.S. you realize that he was talking about increasing the productivity of said labor right?

    If only development economics was so simple - we could just hand out loans and everyone would switch to capital-intensive agriculture? Right? They're only not switching because they can't afford to switch?

    Did anything say anything about loans? A: No, they didn't
    It may be that both become unprofitable, but you're making the o_O assertion that tariffs make one physical method more cost-effective than the other.

    Good lord no. I never claimed anything of the sort. We have two situations currently working. 1. Labor intensive farming has a competitive advantage in these areas 2. this competitive advantage is negated by tariffs.

    Labor or capital intensive farming are not made worse or better in relation to each other, labor intensive farming is already advantaged over capital intensive farming. Tariffs and subsidies stop that labor intensive farming from being as profitable[or happening as widely as it otherwise would].

    You're entirely rejecting the idea that increased prices will increase quantity produced and its baffling me why anyone in their right mind would do this.


    Yes. So? The subsidy provides more benefits to the average thirdworlder than losses. I did already say that corn farmers elsewhere will go out of a job.

    This is not true. It only provides more benefits when they have income that isn't largely derived from affected industries. All third world farmers are out of jobs when people switch to cheaper corn. Or have you forgotten the relations of substitutes as you've forgotten the rest of the economic relationships?
    Regardless, the individual laborer's share of profit, even without the distortion imposed by subsidies, is already marginal - simply because there is a lot of such labor.

    But it can always be more or less marginal, and the firms production may not be[where its likely that no mnc will have a competitive advantage]

    Tax is spent - in this case, on a subsidy (you're the one who invoked equivalence to begin with, so I'm going to assume it holds). Stop looking at individual households and follow the money. If I take a dollar from everyone else, everyone else's income decreases, but now I have a lot of dollars: there is no change in the general level of real income. While very many people now have a decreased income, I must by definition now have a much larger income, large enough to offset everyone else's impact on the real price level: where else would the dollars go?

    This is a simple accounting identity - under the equivalence of tax and spending, it is flatly not possible for a tax to change the real price level or the real income level. A tax imposes exactly two effects: a wealth transfer (from everyone else to corn farmers) and a deadweight loss (market distortion). Neither of these change real prices nor incomes.
    Sweet, so just give all the money to me instead of the corn producers and the general price level won't change!

    A: Yes, it will, you've just shifted the price level for different people in the economy, lowering it for me and raising it for everyone else, saying "but corn producers have more money" is disingenuous. We covered this when I said "the price of corn will go down but the price of everything else will go up" Which you seemed to take exception with

    Again, as explained, you only get a benefit if what you're subsidizing has external benefits.

    Edit: And of course this happens whether or not you actually tax in order to support your subsidy, due to inflationary effects of money supply increases.

    I'm happy that you're reading economics books, but you seem to be reading only the popular texts and hence walking away with a bizarre misunderstanding of the underlying theory. I'll engage with your assertions about the finer points of international trade after you've corrected your core misconceptions; otherwise, I don't think I can get very far!
    Just pointing you to the stuff you're more likely to understand

    Are you really arguing that export demand is inelastic and then saying that subsidized cheap American corn is flooding the third world? O_o Can you even say that with a straight face?

    Look, elasticity of global demand is irrelevant. We're talking law of one price, here - America is not the sole exporter of corn. It doesn't matter whether the global demand is inelastic; if the US makes US corn cheaper, then countries which would otherwise import Mexican corn, import US corn, and keep doing so until nobody else sells corn, or export demand has risen until prices equalise again - and, again, the US is not the sole exporter of corn, so we can see that export demand is elastic. It is for this reason that elasticity is taken as given: it's pretty dang obvious!

    The effect of multiple importations is not created by high state product elasticities(I.E. demand for a specific product from a specific state). You also seem to ignore the fact that elasticities are relative to the quantity produced. Such, it is very easy for elasticity for U.S. corn exports to be inelastic while state product elasticity for a much smaller nation to be highly elastic. This is especially true for inelastic world demand.

    E.G. lets say that world demand elasticity is 0 and the U.S. makes 50 units of corn/year. Mexico by contrast makes 25. Now lets say that price changes 10% and people switch to Mexican corn. World demand is inelastic so they're still going to buy a total of 75 units of corn. But if 3 units from the U.S. are reduced and 3 units from Mexico are increased then Mexican elasticity is 1.27and U.S. elasticity is .512.

    As you can see with this simplification, even when world demand is perfectly inelastic the elasticities between the various products will be relative to the size of the production they're dealing with, such its quite possible that world demand is inelastic and the demand for U.S. corn is inelastic while U.S. corn production and subsidies unduly damage other export communities without increasing the demand for U.S. dollars. In fact, it is more likely that the high quantity production would be inelastic while low quantity production elastic in a situation with general inelasticity. The world is not a perfectly competitive market where everyone has as equal share of production. Stop treating it like it is.

    It is also quite possible that these scenarios are damaging for other states, especially when their prime export is agricultural goods, since an import that comes in cheaper doesn't much matter when their national income is reduced more due the reduction in exports

  • Hexmage-PAHexmage-PA Registered User regular
    edited June 2009
    Keeping with the thread title (slightly abridged with particularly important parts in bold):
    Monsanto Hid Decades Of Pollution
    PCBs Drenched Ala. Town, But No One Was Ever Told

    By Michael Grunwald
    Washington Post Staff Writer
    Tuesday, January 1, 2002; Page A01

    ANNISTON, Ala. -- On the west side of Anniston, the poor side of Anniston, the people ate dirt. They called it "Alabama clay" and cooked it for extra flavor. They also grew berries in their gardens, raised hogs in their backyards, caught bass in the murky streams where their children swam and played and were baptized. They didn't know their dirt and yards and bass and kids -- along with the acrid air they breathed -- were all contaminated with chemicals. They didn't know they lived in one of the most polluted patches
    of America.


    Now they know. They also know that for nearly 40 years, while producing the now-banned industrial coolants known as PCBs at a local factory, Monsanto Co. routinely discharged toxic waste into a west Anniston creek and dumped millions of pounds of PCBs into oozing open-pit landfills. And thousands of pages of Monsanto documents -- many emblazoned with warnings such as "CONFIDENTIAL: Read and Destroy" -- show that for decades, the corporate giant concealed what it did and what it knew.

    In 1966, Monsanto managers discovered that fish submerged in that creek turned belly-up within 10 seconds, spurting blood and shedding skin as if dunked into boiling water. They told no one. In 1969, they found fish in another creek with 7,500 times the legal PCB levels. They decided "there is little object in going to expensive extremes in limiting discharges." In 1975, a company study found that PCBs caused tumors in rats. They ordered its conclusion changed from "slightly tumorigenic" to "does not appear to
    be carcinogenic."

    Monsanto enjoyed a lucrative four-decade monopoly on PCB production in the United States, and battled to protect that monopoly long after PCBs were confirmed as a global pollutant. "We can't afford to lose one dollar of business," one internal memo concluded.

    David Carpenter, an environmental health professor at the State University of New York at Albany, has been a leading advocate of the EPA's plan to dredge the Hudson, but he says the PCB problems in Anniston are much worse.

    "I'm looking out my window at the Hudson right now, but the reality is that the people who live around the Monsanto plant have higher PCB levels than any residential population I've ever seen," said Carpenter, an expert witness for the plaintiffs in Anniston. "They're 10 times higher than the people around the Hudson."

    The Anniston lawsuits have uncovered a voluminous paper trail, revealing an unusually detailed story of secret corporate machinations in the era before strict environmental regulations and right-to-know laws. The documents -- obtained by The Washington Post from plaintiffs' attorneys and the Environmental Working Group, a chemical industry watchdog -- date as far back as the 1930s, but they expose actions with consequences that are still unfolding today.

    Today, the old plant off Monsanto Road here makes a chemical used in Tylenol. It has not reported a toxic release in four years. Robert Kaley, the environmental affairs director for Solutia who also serves as the PCB expert for the American Chemistry Council, said it is unfair to judge the company's behavior from the 1930s through 1970s by modern standards.

    "Did we do some things we wouldn't do today? Of course. But that's a little piece of a big story," he said. "If you put it all in context, I think we've got nothing to be ashamed of."

    But Monsanto's uncertain legacy is as embedded in west Anniston's psyche as it is in the town's dirt. The EPA and the World Health Organization classify PCBs as "probable carcinogens," and while no one has determined whether the people in Anniston are sicker than average, Solutia has opposed proposals for comprehensive health studies as unnecessary. And it has not apologized for any of its contamination or deception.

    "I knew something was wrong around here," he said.

    Opal Scruggs, 65, has spent her entire life in west Anniston, the last few decades in a cottage in back of a Waffle House behind the plant. But in recent years, Monsanto has bought and demolished about 100 PCB-tainted homes and mom-and-pop businesses nearby, turning her neighborhood into a virtual ghost town. Now she has elevated PCB levels in her blood -- along with Harris and many of their neighbors -- and she believes she's a "walking time bomb."

    "Monsanto did a job on this city," she said. "They thought we were stupid and illiterate people, so nobody would notice what happens to us."

    In the fall of 1966, Monsanto hired a Mississippi State University biologist named Denzel Ferguson to conduct some studies around its Anniston plant. Ferguson, who died in 1998, arrived with tanks full of bluegill fish, which he caged in cloth containers and submerged at various points along nearby creeks. This is what he reported to Monsanto about the results in Snow Creek: "All 25 fish lost equilibrium and turned on their sides in 10 seconds and all were dead in 3 1/2 minutes."


    "I've never seen anything like it in my life," said Mack Finley, another former Ferguson grad student, now an aquatic biologist at Austin Peay State University. "Their skin would literally slough off, like a blood blister on the bottom of your foot."

    The problem, Ferguson concluded, was the "extremely toxic" wastewater flowing directly from the Monsanto plant into Snow Creek, and then into the larger Choccolocco Creek, where he noted similar "die-offs." The outflow, he calculated, "would probably kill fish when diluted 1,000 times or so." He
    warned Monsanto: "Since this is a surface stream that passes through residential areas, it may represent a potential source of danger to children." He urged Monsanto to clean up Snow Creek, and to stop dumping
    untreated waste there.

    Monsanto did not do that -- even though the warnings continued.

    In September 1969, Monsanto appointed an Aroclors Ad Hoc Committee to address the controversies swirling around its PCB monopoly, which was worth $22 million a year in sales. According to minutes of the first meeting, the committee had only two formal objectives: "Permit continued sales and profits" and "Protect image of . . . the Corporation."

    But the members agreed that the situation looked bleak. PCBs had been found across the nation in fish, oysters and even bald eagles. They had been identified in milk in Georgia and Maryland. They were implicated in a major shrimp kill in Florida. Their status as a serious pollutant, the committee concluded, was "certain."

    "Subject is snowballing," one member jotted in his notes. "Where do we go from here?"

    One option, as a member put it, was to "sell the hell out of them as long as we can." Another option was to stop making them immediately. But the committee instead recommended "The Responsible Approach" -- phasing out its PCB products, but only once it could develop alternatives.The idea was to maintain "one of Monsanto's most profitable franchises" as long as possible while taking care to "reduce our exposure in terms of liability." The committee even drew up graphs charting profits vs. liability over time, and urged more studies to poke holes in the government's case against PCBs.

    But the company's own tests on rats, chickens and even dogs proved discouraging. "The PCBs are exhibiting a greater degree of toxicity than we had anticipated," reported the committee chairman. Fish tests were worse: "Doses which were believed to be OK produced 100% kill." The chairman pressured the company's consultants for more Monsanto-friendly results, but they replied: "We are very sorry that we can't paint a brighter picture at the present time."

    At first, the committee members proposed reducing PCB releases to an "absolute minimum." But then they removed the word "absolute." They saw no benefit in a unilateral crackdown on Monsanto's PCBs when Monsanto's customers were still dumping, too: "It was agreed that until the problems of gross environmental contamination by our customers have been alleviated, there is little object in going to expensive extremes in limiting discharges."

    And before Monsanto even began to phase out its best-selling PCBs, its top customer intervened: General Electric, according to a memo by Papageorge, insisted that it needed to keep buying PCBs to prevent power outages and that the environmental threat was still "questionable." Monsanto agreed to slow down its plan, and kept making PCBs until 1977, although only for closely monitored industrial uses.

    And what, Kaley asks, is wrong with that? Corporations, after all, have obligations to their shareholders, and the federal law banning the manufacture of PCBs did not take effect until 1979. Monsanto's critics, Kaley says, do not understand capitalism.

    "Look, this was a good product," Kaley said. "Did we try to save it as long as we could? Absolutely. Was the writing on the wall when we stopped producing it? Sure. But we did stop."

    Monsanto's luck with regulators held in 1983, when the federal Soil Conservation Service found PCBs in Choccolocco Creek, but took no action. In 1985, state authorities found PCB-tainted soils around Snow Creek, but a dispute over cleanup details lingered until a new attorney general named Donald Siegelman took office in 1988. In a letter that April, Monsanto's Anniston superintendent thanked Siegelman -- who is now the state's Democratic governor -- for addressing the Alabama Chemical Association, and meeting Monsanto's lobbyists for dinner. Then he got to the point: Monsanto wanted to go forward with its own cleanup plan, dredging just a few hundred yards of Snow Creek and its tributaries.

    The larger problem finally burst into public view in 1993, after a local angler caught deformed largemouth bass in Choccolocco Creek. After studies again detected PCBs, Alabama issued the first advisories against eating fish from the area -- 27 years after Monsanto learned about those bluegills sliding out of their skins.

    By 1996, state officials and plaintiffs' attorneys were finding astronomical PCB levels in the area: as high as 940 times the federal level of concern in yard soils, 200 times that level in dust inside people's homes, 2,000 times that level in Monsanto's drainage ditches. The PCB levels in the air were also too high. And in blood tests, nearly one-third of the residents of the working-class Sweet Valley and Cobbtown neighborhoods near the plant were found to have elevated PCB levels. The communities were declared public health hazards. Near Snow Creek, the state warned, "the increased risk of cancer is estimated to be high."

    But no one has found a link between PCBs and any cancer as definitive as the link between, say, cigarettes and lung cancer. A recent GE-funded study -- conducted by the same toxicologist who originally discovered that PCBs cause cancer in rats -- found no link to cancer in humans. And some independent scientists remain skeptical of any serious health effects from real-world PCB exposure.

    Today, Solutia is negotiating a final Anniston cleanup plan; EPA officials say the company has been aggressive in pressing for lower standards but generally cooperative. It employs 85 workers in Anniston, and donates computers and science labs to area schools. Its brochures pledge to "insure
    environmental safety and health for the community" and to hide nothing from Anniston residents: "You have a right to know, and we have a responsibility to keep you, our valued neighbor, informed."

    "We don't have horns coming out of our head," said David Cain, the current manager of the Solutia plant in Anniston. "We're not evil people."

    Pel wrote:
    Sure, you repel Godzilla the first 5 times he comes at you but then some giant mutant pillbug hits you from below or Polly the radioactive pterodactyl dive bombs your metropolis or Zippy the laser breathing gigarabbit strikes at mach 5 and you can't even hit the thing with conventional weaponry and everyone is back to square one.
  • Hexmage-PAHexmage-PA Registered User regular
    edited June 2009
    I'm interested in watching Food Inc, but it looks like its mainly playing in alternative theaters. Guess I'll have to wait until it comes out on DVD.

    Pel wrote:
    Sure, you repel Godzilla the first 5 times he comes at you but then some giant mutant pillbug hits you from below or Polly the radioactive pterodactyl dive bombs your metropolis or Zippy the laser breathing gigarabbit strikes at mach 5 and you can't even hit the thing with conventional weaponry and everyone is back to square one.
  • electricitylikesmeelectricitylikesme Registered User regular
    edited June 2009
    This is the reason I will never be a successful executive. I just absolutely could not do what those people do.

    Dis' wrote: »
    Cancer is when cells stop letting the body mooch off their hard work - clearly a community of like-minded cells should isolate themselves and do the best job each can do, even if the rest of the body collapses!
  • Hexmage-PAHexmage-PA Registered User regular
    edited June 2009
    This is the reason I will never be a successful executive. I just absolutely could not do what those people do.

    You mean invite the dark prince Lucifer into their souls and jeopardize the health of the planet's population for the sake of sustaining "the Company"?

    Pel wrote:
    Sure, you repel Godzilla the first 5 times he comes at you but then some giant mutant pillbug hits you from below or Polly the radioactive pterodactyl dive bombs your metropolis or Zippy the laser breathing gigarabbit strikes at mach 5 and you can't even hit the thing with conventional weaponry and everyone is back to square one.
  • RUNN1NGMANRUNN1NGMAN Registered User regular
    edited June 2009
    I'm down with locally grown food as soon as someone figures out a way to prevent the resultant nutrient run-off from killing all marine life. If all the food that Virginia, Delaware, Maryland, and Pennsylvania consumed was actually produced by agriculture in those states, the Chesapeake Bay would have become a dead zone years ago.

  • Hexmage-PAHexmage-PA Registered User regular
    edited June 2009
    Here's another juicy bit regarding Monsanto:
    Dumping of toxic waste in the UK

    Between 1965 and 1972, Monsanto paid contractors to illegally dump thousands of tons of highly toxic waste in UK landfill sites, knowing that their chemicals were liable to contaminate wildlife and people. The Environment Agency said the chemicals were found to be polluting groundwater and the atmosphere 30 years after they were dumped.

    The Brofiscin quarry, near Cardiff, erupted in 2003, spilling fumes over the surrounding area, but the local community was unaware that the quarry housed toxic waste.

    A UK government report shows that 67 chemicals, including Agent Orange derivatives, dioxins and PCBs exclusively made by Monsanto, are leaking from one unlined porous quarry that was not authorized to take chemical wastes. It emerged that the groundwater has been polluted since the 1970s. The government was criticised for failing to publish information about the scale and exact nature of this contamination. According to the Environment Agency it could cost £100m to clean up the site in south Wales, called "one of the most contaminated" in the UK.

    Pel wrote:
    Sure, you repel Godzilla the first 5 times he comes at you but then some giant mutant pillbug hits you from below or Polly the radioactive pterodactyl dive bombs your metropolis or Zippy the laser breathing gigarabbit strikes at mach 5 and you can't even hit the thing with conventional weaponry and everyone is back to square one.
  • HeartlashHeartlash Registered User regular
    edited June 2009
    RUNN1NGMAN wrote: »
    I'm down with locally grown food as soon as someone figures out a way to prevent the resultant nutrient run-off from killing all marine life. If all the food that Virginia, Delaware, Maryland, and Pennsylvania consumed was actually produced by agriculture in those states, the Chesapeake Bay would have become a dead zone years ago.

    I assume that depends on how much waste could be used as natural fertilizer, which in turn depends on what's being fed to the animals. Free range cows that eat grass produce waste that goes directly back into the grass, restocking their own food supply without producing major runoff.

    Waste runoff, as far as I know, didn't become a major problem until mass farms with corn based diets sprung up.

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