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The Israeli Lobby and the Overuse of the Anti-Semite Card

SyphonBlueSyphonBlue Registered User regular
edited June 2009 in Debate and/or Discourse
Jacobkosh wrote: »
Emanon wrote: »
wwtMask wrote: »
You know, I'm not sure we ought to be throwing around that word so casually. I mean, it's somewhat like the n word, right?

It is but as half-Jew myself I only use it around my fellow kykes, kyke please, so you can't use it. Because you know us Jews don't deserve a Jewish history month as we only suffered through slavery twice and a holocaust. I guess our minority is less interesting in the US. Sorry about the tangent but I hate when other minorities still play the victim.

I know you struggle mightily with rather basic concepts, but you do realize the US never enslaved Jews, nor did we perpetrate the Holocaust, nor have Jews in the US been denied the basic dignity of their own culture by having their names, histories, and countries of origin taken away from them. So yeah, blacks get a "history month" - I suggest you cry about it.

May says "What the fuck are you two idiots talking about"

SyphonBlue on
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Posts

  • EvanderEvander Registered User regular
    edited June 2009
    wwtMask wrote: »
    You know, I'm not sure we ought to be throwing around that word so casually. I mean, it's somewhat like the n word, right?

    eh, you have my permission

    Personally, I feel like the best way to deal with the word kike is to have people say it until it loses all meaning.



    I subscribe to a magazine called HEEB. If there was a KIKE or a SHEENY, I'd probably subscribe to those too.



    for the record, kike is probably one of the most absurd racial slurs ever. it's origin comes from Jewish immigrants who refused to write an X for a signature on their immigration papers (because it was too close to a cross), and instead insisted on drawing a circle, or "kikel"

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  • ThanatosThanatos Registered User regular
    edited June 2009
    Emanon wrote: »
    wwtMask wrote: »
    You know, I'm not sure we ought to be throwing around that word so casually. I mean, it's somewhat like the n word, right?
    It is but as half-Jew myself I only use it around my fellow kykes, kyke please, so you can't use it. Because you know us Jews don't deserve a Jewish history month as we only suffered through slavery twice and a holocaust. I guess our minority is less interesting in the US. Sorry about the tangent but I hate when other minorities still play the victim.
    Last I checked, Jews were massively over-represented in the U.S. Congress, along with the high side of the income scale. I'm not saying that anti-semitism doesn't exist in this country, but given the responses one garners when one has the slightest negative thing to say about Israel, I'd say reverse-anti-semitism ("anti-gentilism," if you will) is a far greater problem.

    The opposite is true of many other minorities in the U.S., including blacks and hispanics.

  • Captain CarrotCaptain Carrot P'burg, MTRegistered User regular
    edited June 2009
    Thanatos wrote: »
    Emanon wrote: »
    wwtMask wrote: »
    You know, I'm not sure we ought to be throwing around that word so casually. I mean, it's somewhat like the n word, right?
    It is but as half-Jew myself I only use it around my fellow kykes, kyke please, so you can't use it. Because you know us Jews don't deserve a Jewish history month as we only suffered through slavery twice and a holocaust. I guess our minority is less interesting in the US. Sorry about the tangent but I hate when other minorities still play the victim.
    Last I checked, Jews were massively over-represented in the U.S. Congress, along with the high side of the income scale. I'm not saying that anti-semitism doesn't exist in this country, but given the responses one garners when one has the slightest negative thing to say about Israel, I'd say reverse-anti-semitism ("anti-gentilism," if you will) is a far greater problem.

    The opposite is true of many other minorities in the U.S., including blacks and hispanics.

    Israel!=Jews. Two different issues there.

    Spoiler:
  • wwtMaskwwtMask Registered User regular
    edited June 2009
    I think the most important point to take away from this is that Emanon has a persecution complex and apparently wants to be able to say the n-word without suffering negative repercussions.

    Evander, I think I'll continue to not use the word. I've never heard it used in any way that wasn't derogatory.

    When he dies, I hope they write "Worst Affirmative Action Hire, EVER" on his grave. His corpse should be trolled.
    Twitter - @liberaltruths | Google+ - http://gplus.to/wwtMask | Occupy Tallahassee
  • ThanatosThanatos Registered User regular
    edited June 2009
    wwtMask wrote: »
    I think the most important point to take away from this is that Emanon has a persecution complex and apparently wants to be able to say the n-word without suffering negative repercussions.

    Evander, I think I'll continue to not use the word. I've never heard it used in any way that wasn't derogatory.
    One of my friends met a rabbi once who was wearing a shirt that said "Kike: Just Jew It."

  • EvanderEvander Registered User regular
    edited June 2009
    Thanatos wrote: »
    Emanon wrote: »
    wwtMask wrote: »
    You know, I'm not sure we ought to be throwing around that word so casually. I mean, it's somewhat like the n word, right?
    It is but as half-Jew myself I only use it around my fellow kykes, kyke please, so you can't use it. Because you know us Jews don't deserve a Jewish history month as we only suffered through slavery twice and a holocaust. I guess our minority is less interesting in the US. Sorry about the tangent but I hate when other minorities still play the victim.
    Last I checked, Jews were massively over-represented in the U.S. Congress, along with the high side of the income scale. I'm not saying that anti-semitism doesn't exist in this country, but given the responses one garners when one has the slightest negative thing to say about Israel, I'd say reverse-anti-semitism ("anti-gentilism," if you will) is a far greater problem.

    The opposite is true of many other minorities in the U.S., including blacks and hispanics.

    You sound JUST like Glenn Beck.

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  • ThanatosThanatos Registered User regular
    edited June 2009
    Evander wrote: »
    Thanatos wrote: »
    Emanon wrote: »
    wwtMask wrote: »
    You know, I'm not sure we ought to be throwing around that word so casually. I mean, it's somewhat like the n word, right?
    It is but as half-Jew myself I only use it around my fellow kykes, kyke please, so you can't use it. Because you know us Jews don't deserve a Jewish history month as we only suffered through slavery twice and a holocaust. I guess our minority is less interesting in the US. Sorry about the tangent but I hate when other minorities still play the victim.
    Last I checked, Jews were massively over-represented in the U.S. Congress, along with the high side of the income scale. I'm not saying that anti-semitism doesn't exist in this country, but given the responses one garners when one has the slightest negative thing to say about Israel, I'd say reverse-anti-semitism ("anti-gentilism," if you will) is a far greater problem.

    The opposite is true of many other minorities in the U.S., including blacks and hispanics.
    You sound JUST like Glenn Beck.
    You sound just like Avigdor Lieberman.

  • EvanderEvander Registered User regular
    edited June 2009
    wwtMask wrote: »
    Evander, I think I'll continue to not use the word. I've never heard it used in any way that wasn't derogatory.

    Fair enough. My point was more to say, though that "kike" really has lost most of its derision over time, where as the n-word still holds a lot of power for many people (although, personally, I believe that the best way to deal with the n-word is to overuse it until it's meaningless as well. I'm not going to be the first to pick it up, though, nor do I want to be.)

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  • EvanderEvander Registered User regular
    edited June 2009
    Thanatos wrote: »
    Evander wrote: »
    Thanatos wrote: »
    Emanon wrote: »
    wwtMask wrote: »
    You know, I'm not sure we ought to be throwing around that word so casually. I mean, it's somewhat like the n word, right?
    It is but as half-Jew myself I only use it around my fellow kykes, kyke please, so you can't use it. Because you know us Jews don't deserve a Jewish history month as we only suffered through slavery twice and a holocaust. I guess our minority is less interesting in the US. Sorry about the tangent but I hate when other minorities still play the victim.
    Last I checked, Jews were massively over-represented in the U.S. Congress, along with the high side of the income scale. I'm not saying that anti-semitism doesn't exist in this country, but given the responses one garners when one has the slightest negative thing to say about Israel, I'd say reverse-anti-semitism ("anti-gentilism," if you will) is a far greater problem.

    The opposite is true of many other minorities in the U.S., including blacks and hispanics.
    You sound JUST like Glenn Beck.
    You sound just like Avigdor Lieberman.

    When?

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  • ThanatosThanatos Registered User regular
    edited June 2009
    Evander wrote: »
    Thanatos wrote: »
    Evander wrote: »
    Thanatos wrote: »
    Emanon wrote: »
    wwtMask wrote: »
    You know, I'm not sure we ought to be throwing around that word so casually. I mean, it's somewhat like the n word, right?
    It is but as half-Jew myself I only use it around my fellow kykes, kyke please, so you can't use it. Because you know us Jews don't deserve a Jewish history month as we only suffered through slavery twice and a holocaust. I guess our minority is less interesting in the US. Sorry about the tangent but I hate when other minorities still play the victim.
    Last I checked, Jews were massively over-represented in the U.S. Congress, along with the high side of the income scale. I'm not saying that anti-semitism doesn't exist in this country, but given the responses one garners when one has the slightest negative thing to say about Israel, I'd say reverse-anti-semitism ("anti-gentilism," if you will) is a far greater problem.

    The opposite is true of many other minorities in the U.S., including blacks and hispanics.
    You sound JUST like Glenn Beck.
    You sound just like Avigdor Lieberman.
    When?
    Right now, when you accused me of being insane for suggesting that Jews aren't a particularly oppressed minority in the U.S.

  • EvanderEvander Registered User regular
    edited June 2009
    Thanatos wrote: »
    I'm not saying that anti-semitism doesn't exist in this country, but given the responses one garners when one has the slightest negative thing to say about Israel, I'd say reverse-anti-semitism ("anti-gentilism," if you will) is a far greater problem.

    I'm quoting this for posterity.

    Not only does Thantos not know the difference between pro-Israel and pro-Jewish, but he is accusing Jews hating non-Jews to be a far greater problem than people hating Jews.



    Just like the "Reverse Holocaust", I guess.

    And that incident, a couple weeks ago, when that Jewish guy tried to go shoot up the "Gentile Museum"

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  • EvanderEvander Registered User regular
    edited June 2009
    Thanatos wrote: »
    Evander wrote: »
    Thanatos wrote: »
    Evander wrote: »
    Thanatos wrote: »
    Emanon wrote: »
    wwtMask wrote: »
    You know, I'm not sure we ought to be throwing around that word so casually. I mean, it's somewhat like the n word, right?
    It is but as half-Jew myself I only use it around my fellow kykes, kyke please, so you can't use it. Because you know us Jews don't deserve a Jewish history month as we only suffered through slavery twice and a holocaust. I guess our minority is less interesting in the US. Sorry about the tangent but I hate when other minorities still play the victim.
    Last I checked, Jews were massively over-represented in the U.S. Congress, along with the high side of the income scale. I'm not saying that anti-semitism doesn't exist in this country, but given the responses one garners when one has the slightest negative thing to say about Israel, I'd say reverse-anti-semitism ("anti-gentilism," if you will) is a far greater problem.

    The opposite is true of many other minorities in the U.S., including blacks and hispanics.
    You sound JUST like Glenn Beck.
    You sound just like Avigdor Lieberman.
    When?
    Right now, when you accused me of being insane for suggesting that Jews aren't a particularly oppressed minority in the U.S.

    No, I accused you of being insane for preaching a load of "reverse racism" bullshit, just with Jews replaced for black people.

    georgersig.jpg
  • EvanderEvander Registered User regular
    edited June 2009
    You can try to hide behind the excuse of "I meant Israel", but that's not what you said.

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  • HamHamJHamHamJ Registered User regular
    edited June 2009
    Evander wrote: »
    Not only does Thantos not know the difference between pro-Israel and pro-Jewish

    The correlation between these seems pretty obvious.

    While racing light mechs, your Urbanmech comes in second place, but only because it ran out of ammo.
  • The Muffin ManThe Muffin Man Registered User regular
    edited June 2009
    HamHamJ wrote: »
    Evander wrote: »
    Not only does Thantos not know the difference between pro-Israel and pro-Jewish

    The correlation between these seems pretty obvious.
    But despite the fact that the Jewish people come from Israel or that you'd be hard pressed to find a Jew that DOESN'T support Israel in the matter, THAT DOESN'T MAKE IT RIGHT!

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  • ThanatosThanatos Registered User regular
    edited June 2009
    Evander wrote: »
    Thanatos wrote: »
    Spoiler:
    Right now, when you accused me of being insane for suggesting that Jews aren't a particularly oppressed minority in the U.S.
    No, I accused you of being insane for preaching a load of "reverse racism" bullshit, just with Jews replaced for black people.
    Given that the Anti-Defamation League, the foremost Jewish interest group which works against anti-semitism, has accused both Jimmy Carter and Joe Klein (who happens to be Jewish) of being anti-semites, yeah, I think it's a fucking problem.

    Also, I got called a Nazi for signing a petition to get the city of Seattle to divest from Israel, which is something I don't particularly appreciate. It's not my fault that the ADL has hopelessly intertwined themselves with the interests of Israel to the point that they're virtually indistinguishable from AIPAC. It's fucking bullshit, and every time I hear the Jewish lobby try to play the "persecuted minority" card, I throw up in my mouth a little, given the disproportionate number of Jewish people in power in our society.

  • EvanderEvander Registered User regular
    edited June 2009
    HamHamJ wrote: »
    Evander wrote: »
    Not only does Thantos not know the difference between pro-Israel and pro-Jewish

    The correlation between these seems pretty obvious.

    if you want to correlate them, then anti-Israel becomes Anti-Jewish.



    Which is something that I don't PERSONALLY believe, and also something that I know Thanatos doesn't want to put out there.






    Also, as far as Jews being "over represented in government", you can't blame us for that. Were only a couple percent of the population. SOME ONE is voting for us.

    georgersig.jpg
  • IncenjucarIncenjucar QA Tester -> Game Producer Seattle, WARegistered User regular
    edited June 2009
    Are we talking Jewish people as a race or a culture or a religion...?

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  • EvanderEvander Registered User regular
    edited June 2009
    Thanatos wrote: »
    every time I hear the Jewish lobby try to play the "persecuted minority" card, I throw up in my mouth a little, given the disproportionate number of Jewish people in power in our society.

    And there's a black president now, so anti-black racism is ALSO over, right?

    georgersig.jpg
  • ThanatosThanatos Registered User regular
    edited June 2009
    HamHamJ wrote: »
    Evander wrote: »
    Not only does Thantos not know the difference between pro-Israel and pro-Jewish
    The correlation between these seems pretty obvious.
    But despite the fact that the Jewish people come from Israel or that you'd be hard pressed to find a Jew that DOESN'T support Israel in the matter, THAT DOESN'T MAKE IT RIGHT!
    There are plenty of Jews in the U.S. who don't support Israel; hell, some of them moved here from Israel.

  • The Muffin ManThe Muffin Man Registered User regular
    edited June 2009
    Thanatos wrote: »
    HamHamJ wrote: »
    Evander wrote: »
    Not only does Thantos not know the difference between pro-Israel and pro-Jewish
    The correlation between these seems pretty obvious.
    But despite the fact that the Jewish people come from Israel or that you'd be hard pressed to find a Jew that DOESN'T support Israel in the matter, THAT DOESN'T MAKE IT RIGHT!
    There are plenty of Jews in the U.S. who don't support Israel; hell, some of them moved here from Israel.
    Well it stands to reason that many who moved FORM Israel moved because they're sick of their country jabbing the maladjusted kid and then crying when he bites them.


    And by "crying" I mean "retaliating in an equally excessive show of force".

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  • EvanderEvander Registered User regular
    edited June 2009
    So, Thanatos, tell me how "anti-gentilism" is tearing this nation apart.

    Better yet, tell THIS man:

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  • Der Waffle MousDer Waffle Mous WALK 3X FASTER New Yark, New Yark.Registered User regular
    edited June 2009
    Wow.

    I thought the "How dare other minorities play the victim card, we have it WORSE" mindset was something unique to my people.

    zaku.png
    Steam PSN: DerWaffleMous Origin: DerWaffleMous Bnet: WaffleMous#1483
  • The Muffin ManThe Muffin Man Registered User regular
    edited June 2009
    I think I'm gonna step out and watch Evander and Thanatos go at it.

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  • ThanatosThanatos Registered User regular
    edited June 2009
    Evander wrote: »
    Thanatos wrote: »
    every time I hear the Jewish lobby try to play the "persecuted minority" card, I throw up in my mouth a little, given the disproportionate number of Jewish people in power in our society.
    And there's a black president now, so anti-black racism is ALSO over, right?
    I never said that anti-semitism was over; I just said that the reverse presents more of a problem, mostly because anytime anyone tries to do anything which has the slightest chance of ending thousands upon thousands upon thousands of deaths that Israel has inflicted upon Palestine, they get called an "anti-semite."

    There were around 1400 incidents of anti-semitism in the U.S. last year; down from the recent peak of around 1850 in 2004. Even assuming every single one of those incidents resulted in an injury or death (they didn't), you'd need over three years of that to get up to the number of people that Israel injured or killed in under four weeks in Palestine between December 2008 and January 2009.

    So, yeah, when that sort of policy leads to that magnitude of slaughter, I'm going to say it's worse than the comparatively minor prejudice Jews put up with in this country.

  • EvanderEvander Registered User regular
    edited June 2009
    Wow.

    I thought the "How dare other minorities play the victim card, we have it WORSE" mindset was something unique to my people.

    this isn't that

    this is the "reverse racism" card, just with special guest "Jews" filling in for "Blacks"

    georgersig.jpg
  • Der Waffle MousDer Waffle Mous WALK 3X FASTER New Yark, New Yark.Registered User regular
    edited June 2009
    Evander wrote: »
    Wow.

    I thought the "How dare other minorities play the victim card, we have it WORSE" mindset was something unique to my people.

    this isn't that

    this is the "reverse racism" card, just with special guest "Jews" filling in for "Blacks"
    I'm referring more to the quote in the OP than anything afterward.

    zaku.png
    Steam PSN: DerWaffleMous Origin: DerWaffleMous Bnet: WaffleMous#1483
  • EvanderEvander Registered User regular
    edited June 2009
    Thanatos wrote: »
    I just said that the reverse presents more of a problem, mostly because anytime anyone tries to do anything which has the slightest chance of ending thousands upon thousands upon thousands of deaths that Israel has inflicted upon Palestine, they get called an "anti-semite."

    Right.

    Because being called a name would prevent an ACTUAL workable peace plan.



    Name calling is CLEARLY worse than shooting people.

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  • IncenjucarIncenjucar QA Tester -> Game Producer Seattle, WARegistered User regular
    edited June 2009
    I think Thanatos is trying to articulate that many people use their Jewish heritage as an excuse to be horrible assholes, and because of their socio-economic stature, it's much more dangerous than when, say, the children of African-American slaves do it.

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  • EvanderEvander Registered User regular
    edited June 2009
    Evander wrote: »
    Wow.

    I thought the "How dare other minorities play the victim card, we have it WORSE" mindset was something unique to my people.

    this isn't that

    this is the "reverse racism" card, just with special guest "Jews" filling in for "Blacks"
    I'm referring more to the quote in the OP than anything afterward.

    it's not really an OP. this was split out after Thany started making his claims that name calling from a minority WITHIN a minority is some how worse than hate-crime.

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  • ThanatosThanatos Registered User regular
    edited June 2009
    Evander wrote: »
    Wow.

    I thought the "How dare other minorities play the victim card, we have it WORSE" mindset was something unique to my people.
    this isn't that

    this is the "reverse racism" card, just with special guest "Jews" filling in for "Blacks"
    Again, it's not my fault that the Jewish anti-hate groups have married themselves so strongly to the pro-Israel groups that instead of fighting actual hate, they're just hatchet-men for the pro-Israel lobby.

    And I'm goddamned well not going to take it back just because you think I'm being unfair; I'm being perfectly fucking fair, you just don't like that I'm right.

  • deadonthestreetdeadonthestreet Registered User regular
    edited June 2009
    Wow.

    I thought the "How dare other minorities play the victim card, we have it WORSE" mindset was something unique to my people.
    I had a professor in college who claimed that only Jews have a claim to the Holocaust and that any other group that claimed they were victims as well were, I don't know, stealing the Jew's tragedy thunder or something.

    I still can't believe it.

  • SyphonBlueSyphonBlue Registered User regular
    edited June 2009
    Incenjucar wrote: »
    I think Thanatos is trying to articulate that many people use their Jewish heritage as an excuse to be horrible assholes

    Yeah, I'm gonna need to see some citation of this.

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  • EvanderEvander Registered User regular
    edited June 2009
    Incenjucar wrote: »
    I think Thanatos is trying to articulate that many people use their Jewish heritage as an excuse to be horrible assholes, and because of their socio-economic stature, it's much more dangerous than when, say, the children of African-American slaves do it.

    and he is articulating it by calling it "worse" and a "greater problem".



    I'd be the FIRST to admit that many jews are too quick to play the race card. That DOESN'T serve a huge problem, though, in the way that ACTUAL hate crimes do.

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  • IncenjucarIncenjucar QA Tester -> Game Producer Seattle, WARegistered User regular
    edited June 2009
    SyphonBlue wrote: »
    Incenjucar wrote: »
    I think Thanatos is trying to articulate that many people use their Jewish heritage as an excuse to be horrible assholes

    Yeah, I'm gonna need to see some citation of this.

    Israel. :P

    --

    It's a problem when highly powerful politicians use it.

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  • SentrySentry Registered User regular
    edited June 2009
    Incenjucar wrote: »
    I think Thanatos is trying to articulate that many people use their Jewish heritage as an excuse to be horrible assholes, and because of their socio-economic stature, it's much more dangerous than when, say, the children of African-American slaves do it.

    That sounds very much like it's heading into "Jews control the world" territory, by which I mean crazytown. Is there any evidence that shows Jews are disproportionally represented among the successful?

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    wrote:
    When I was a little kid, I always pretended I was the hero,' Skip said.
    'Fuck yeah, me too. What little kid ever pretended to be part of the lynch-mob?'
  • ThanatosThanatos Registered User regular
    edited June 2009
    Evander wrote: »
    Thanatos wrote: »
    I just said that the reverse presents more of a problem, mostly because anytime anyone tries to do anything which has the slightest chance of ending thousands upon thousands upon thousands of deaths that Israel has inflicted upon Palestine, they get called an "anti-semite."
    Right.

    Because being called a name would prevent an ACTUAL workable peace plan.



    Name calling is CLEARLY worse than shooting people.
    That anti-semite cocksucker shooting people was a fucking douche, who did a horrible thing.

    The Israelis maintaining an apartheid state and slaughtering Palestinians while denying them any sort of standards of living is worse.

    And that "namecalling" leads to a culture in Washington that is afraid to address the Isrealis as the racist, genocidal motherfuckers they are.

  • EvanderEvander Registered User regular
    edited June 2009
    Thanatos wrote: »
    Evander wrote: »
    Wow.

    I thought the "How dare other minorities play the victim card, we have it WORSE" mindset was something unique to my people.
    this isn't that

    this is the "reverse racism" card, just with special guest "Jews" filling in for "Blacks"
    Again, it's not my fault that the Jewish anti-hate groups have married themselves so strongly to the pro-Israel groups that instead of fighting actual hate, they're just hatchet-men for the pro-Israel lobby.

    And I'm goddamned well not going to take it back just because you think I'm being unfair; I'm being perfectly fucking fair, you just don't like that I'm right.

    You are holding ALL Jews responsible for the actions of a minority WITHIN a minority.



    I DO NOT say this lightly, but you, sir, ARE an Anti-Semite. When you start declaring that name calling is a greater issue to this nation than ACTUAL crimes which are occurring, or start implying conspiracy (what else it the point of bringing up "the number of Jews in power"?) you are tipping your hand.



    The great irony being that the majority of Jews are actually incredibly liberal, just like you. You're unwilling to accept them as allies, though, because a couple of Jews looked at you funny, and you were offended.

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  • IncenjucarIncenjucar QA Tester -> Game Producer Seattle, WARegistered User regular
    edited June 2009
    Sentry wrote: »
    Incenjucar wrote: »
    I think Thanatos is trying to articulate that many people use their Jewish heritage as an excuse to be horrible assholes, and because of their socio-economic stature, it's much more dangerous than when, say, the children of African-American slaves do it.

    That sounds very much like it's heading into "Jews control the world" territory, by which I mean crazytown. Is there any evidence that shows Jews are disproportionally represented among the successful?

    http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1272/is_2703_132/ai_111403491/

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  • EvanderEvander Registered User regular
    edited June 2009
    Incenjucar wrote: »
    Sentry wrote: »
    Incenjucar wrote: »
    I think Thanatos is trying to articulate that many people use their Jewish heritage as an excuse to be horrible assholes, and because of their socio-economic stature, it's much more dangerous than when, say, the children of African-American slaves do it.

    That sounds very much like it's heading into "Jews control the world" territory, by which I mean crazytown. Is there any evidence that shows Jews are disproportionally represented among the successful?

    http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1272/is_2703_132/ai_111403491/

    the problem is how small a sample Jews are, comparetively. it's like comparing apples and grapes.

    georgersig.jpg
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