Hey Gabriel, I effed around, and well, maybe not the best thing to use. I need some proper vector software, trying to figure out Photoshop vector tools will give me nightmares.
Thanks, that looks great and I appreciate the help.
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Librarian's ghostLibrarian, Ghostbuster, and TimSporkRegistered Userregular
it was a scheduled league game...I had to play him. It started at 6ish and lasted until past 10:30. 1850. Think thats ridiculous? READ ON!
The killer, was he was all infantry, so he had 0 vehicles. Tertiary Objective was to kill all the opponents vehicles for +4 points. If they had no vehicles, you were automatically awarded the points. So, going into the match I had +4.
Primary was to capture table quarters.. He had so many troops and holed them up in one table quarter. I didn't have the firepower to remove him from his quarter, that much I knew. So, I pushed units against him to keep him in the corner while I tried to take the other 3.
Secondary was to secretly choose a table quarter to capture as your secondary. I chose the one across from my deployment zone, along his long edge.
At the last turn of the game, he flanked Vets into my secondary objective quarter, to move against them meant instant death to Hellguns... so, I moved a unit in to contest and tried to jump my assault marines down back into my deployment to hold it. They needed a run roll of 2. I rolled a 1, so the majority of the unit didn't make it in. On the other side of the table, I had a lone marine shielded by a baal predator and a rhino, making his way back to the quarter adjacent to my deployment zone along my own table edge. One of his units was still able to draw a bead on him and got shots off. I failed my saves and he died. The rest of my power units were locked in CC.
SO! The killer was that at the end of the game, we tied primary, tied secondary, and I won tertiary for a whopping 4 points. I could have saved over 4 hours of my life, had I just looked at his list, said "I win tertiary, I'm going home"
I assume you mean Stormtroopers and not vets. Vets don't get hellguns.
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I was reading on dakka about people marking there squads in some way and always keeping those models together in the same squad. Is this a normal thing? I mean I could see it with marines and guard but there are people talking about tyranids and orks. Personally I have never done it even with my sisters and my old guard army, I would never even consider it with my tyranids.
its pretty normal around here. Local Dark Angels player has different colored stripes across shoulder pads. I know an Ork player that differentiates squads by shirt color and helmet styles. Chaos Marine player that uses the same style of heads for each squad (one with the linked horns, one with the separate horns, one with no horns, etc). Marine player that has colored rings around the sides of the bases.
Nax on
The following people are amazing and I love them: Wildcat, Timspork, Kias, Denada, susan, Sharp101, [GHSC]Ryctor, Matev, Matrias, ItBurns, Slapnuts, Dayspring, see317, and the unknown poster that sent me a box of Death Company! If you get them as Santees you should buy them amazing things!
So, Back in the day I remember these 40k threads were good for general information about upcoming releases, and I thought I might as well ask about The space wolves.
when i get the painting skill im going to attempt to mark each of my squads according to their 2nd company identifiers in the SM codex. Just seems to be the fluffy thing to do.
Anyone else see that TL Assault Cannon + Assault Cannon sponsons rumor with accompanying conversion picture? It was pretty golden
SPACE WOLVES?! MORE LIKE OP WOLVES!
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All of this slow IG talk has me feeling very self-conscious. I only have a handful of games under my belt and just played my second game with the new codex last week. Both games with the new codex were 1500 points and took about 3.5 hours. I am a bit slow during shooting, I admit, but I'll be damned if there weren't more than a few times that my opponents were yukking it up with people when it was their turn, my waiting patiently for my army to get slaughtered.
As for squad marking: My Guardsmen all have the same color/camo scheme, but I differentiate the platoons by base colors. My full-time vet squad are Vostroyans, so they are hard to misidentify.
When someone takes nine Medusas (or Lemans, doesn't matter really) and a couple huge blob platoons with commissars attached to screen them, plus miscellanious other junk, there's not a whole hell of a lot you can do except watch a squad or two evaporate a turn. You don't need to capture objectives if you table your opponent.
So you haven't played with or against these lists have you. I've played a nine Russ list and Sj has played against me. You get to shoot with three units per turn. With Guard BS you'll hit with about half.
Each squadron fires as a barrage, don't they? So you only have to hit with one, and then oh hey look your three squads of six that just podded in are now three squads of one. Whoops.
That isn't nearly enough shooting to kill enough stuff to prevent the enemy from getting in close to your tanks.
Unless you're playing a comparatively low model-count army, like Noise Marines or Crimson Fists. Yes, orks will get to you and push your shit right in. Not everyone plays orks.
Nine Medusas are 1215 points. There is no way you can get "a couple huge blob platoons with commissars attached to screen them, plus miscellanious other junk" with nine Medusas and definitely not with the nine russ list.
Company Command w/Missile Launcher
2xPlatoon Command w/Missile Launcher
6xInfantry Squad w/Missile Launcher, Commissar (deployed as two blobs of 30)
2x3 Sentinels
3x3 Medusas
1815 points. Another fifty to throw around on wargear. I generally play at 2k.
Oh and look, the Medusa is only 36" range. Just sit out farther with some anti-tank and kill their incredibly weak armor, or just move up and cap objective since there's nothing a nine heavy support army can do to capture them back.
Standard board is 48" wide. That means if they deploy at the front, nine Medusas can basically hit anything on the board, especially since you can scatter past max range. Also keep in mind that with a few very rare exceptions a dedicated AT unit can only shoot at a single squadron a turn, and that line units who move up to melta range are vulnerable to countercharge by the blob (which can be exploited but which is tricky.)
An Armored Company can be countered, yes... by a list built to do so (or which is naturally strong against AC such as footsloggin' Orks.) It is extremely difficult to shut down by a take-all-comers list, which cannot heavily invest in AT weapons (because of Orks.)
All of this slow IG talk has me feeling very self-conscious. I only have a handful of games under my belt and just played my second game with the new codex last week. Both games with the new codex were 1500 points and took about 3.5 hours. I am a bit slow during shooting, I admit, but I'll be damned if there weren't more than a few times that my opponents were yukking it up with people when it was their turn, my waiting patiently for my army to get slaughtered.
As for squad marking: My Guardsmen all have the same color/camo scheme, but I differentiate the platoons by base colors. My full-time vet squad are Vostroyans, so they are hard to misidentify.
being slow because you're new and learning is entirely different from being slow because you're just slow.
The guy I was talking about has been playing 40k since the Rogue Trader days.
Nax on
The following people are amazing and I love them: Wildcat, Timspork, Kias, Denada, susan, Sharp101, [GHSC]Ryctor, Matev, Matrias, ItBurns, Slapnuts, Dayspring, see317, and the unknown poster that sent me a box of Death Company! If you get them as Santees you should buy them amazing things!
All of this slow IG talk has me feeling very self-conscious. I only have a handful of games under my belt and just played my second game with the new codex last week. Both games with the new codex were 1500 points and took about 3.5 hours. I am a bit slow during shooting, I admit, but I'll be damned if there weren't more than a few times that my opponents were yukking it up with people when it was their turn, my waiting patiently for my army to get slaughtered.
As for squad marking: My Guardsmen all have the same color/camo scheme, but I differentiate the platoons by base colors. My full-time vet squad are Vostroyans, so they are hard to misidentify.
It really is terrible when people are like we need to hurry this game and than go off and do something else or talk and delay the game themselves.
Of course, there is always the fact that squadron'd tanks are easier to destroy than standalone tanks. 4+ is a destroy result, and pen/glane results need to be allocated around.
My Death Company love squadron'd vehicles and walkers :P
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ApogeeLancks In Every Game EverRegistered Userregular
I was reading on dakka about people marking there squads in some way and always keeping those models together in the same squad. Is this a normal thing? I mean I could see it with marines and guard but there are people talking about tyranids and orks. Personally I have never done it even with my sisters and my old guard army, I would never even consider it with my tyranids.
I made a decision not to with Sisters, since they can ceom in squads from 5-20, making it rather hard to keep them in static squads. Best to let them mingle with whoever they want.
Thanks Nax and Ziac. It's hard not to feel self-conscious while playing these long games as a newbie, still. My opponents were veterans who play 2-hour games in tournies and I can sometimes feel their impatience as I take my time. I try to be nice and casual and allow them "hang-out" time during their turns, but yeah, don't be blaming only me for the slow game. I've known them for a while and it's all good and friendly in the end, but I still strive to be sure and quick in my turns. I guess experience will do that. At least for me, I hope. Maybe not for some people (like Mr. Rogue Trader guy).
I especially like it when I actually cause them to have to think and take their time during their turn because of something I did that threw them for a loop. Heh.
You're making salv angry. you wouldn't like him when he's angry.
You do realize that if those tanks are screened by anything at all you get a Cover save right? and if they're not you can murk them with tank hunters?
I'm not angry, just talking.
I'm also wholly incapable of making cover saves, which no doubt plays into my general distaste for that particular list.
There's other dumb stuff IG can do, as well - outflanking a half-dozen Chimeras into the backfield with Al'Raheim comes to mind, and is honestly probably worse than the mass HS.
Thanks Nax and Ziac. It's hard not to feel self-conscious while playing these long games as a newbie, still. My opponents were veterans who play 2-hour games in tournies and I can sometimes feel their impatience as I take my time. I try to be nice and casual and allow them "hang-out" time during their turns, but yeah, don't be blaming only me for the slow game. I've known them for a while and it's all good and friendly in the end, but I still strive to be sure and quick in my turns. I guess experience will do that. At least for me, I hope. Maybe not for some people (like Mr. Rogue Trader guy).
I especially like it when I actually cause them to have to think and take their time during their turn because of something I did that threw them for a loop. Heh.
I wouldnt sweat it man, im a newb and the guys at the club i play at havent given me crap. Hell they actually try and give me tips. Its as much who you play as how you play ive discovered.
You're making salv angry. you wouldn't like him when he's angry.
You do realize that if those tanks are screened by anything at all you get a Cover save right? and if they're not you can murk them with tank hunters?
I'm not angry, just talking.
I'm also wholly incapable of making cover saves, which no doubt plays into my general distaste for that particular list.
There's other dumb stuff IG can do, as well - outflanking a half-dozen Chimeras into the backfield with Al'Raheim comes to mind, and is honestly probably worse than the mass HS.
It's not bad, but since you roll each unit individually, it can come in piecemeal unless you have two astropaths.
I especially like it when I actually cause them to have to think and take their time during their turn because of something I did that threw them for a loop. Heh.
Those were my favorite moments early on when learning too :P
I remember one early game where I was playing a Tau player who had been playing for years and years. I was chasing down a Fire Warrior squad that was on foot and giving me some trouble. They had run behind a hill of sorts, and he detached some gun drones from a devilfish and sent them into the chokepoint I was running down, blocking the exit. On my turn, I jumped (they were assault troops) up onto the mountain so I could shoot pistols down on the Fire Warriors. I didn't get to assault them because of the gun drone block, but I was able to kill enough to force a morale test, which they failed. He remarked, "Hmmm, I really expected you to take the bait... Way to keep your eye on the bigger picture, a lot of people would have taken the sure charge."
Early on, I also was able to bait a veteran Dark Eldar player into bringing a Raider into range of Dante and his Veteran Assault Squad. He pulled up and took some Dark Lance shots at the side of a sheilding rhino, only to have Dante and friends jump over a hill and melta the holy hell out of the raider He kinda stepped back as he realized what I was doing and went, "Did nooooooot see that coming."
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Hey fellas and.. girls. Thoughts and comments on my 1500 tourney list?
Now this is just a firs draft. Light on troops? You betcha. But I feel the vehicular firepower should carry me through. Enough AP2 to tear apart any marines or monstrous creatures. My heavy slots can spit out 7 very painful templates, so that's basically my anti-horde. Marbo has quickly become a staple in all my lists. He's essentially a "get rid of one thing you don't like in the game, guaranteed" card. Mystics protect me from the drop pod lists and daemon lists that are so popular nowadays. Vendettas either outflank to wipe out all enemy armor, or if it's kill points they'll start on my side and just snipe things long range.
Yeah, the guys I play are helpful too. My last game I played against Space Marines. The first time I played against SM, and I don't have the new SM codex. He drop-podded in my back and for a turn, his tac squad was around the pod. I fired into the squad (killed one) but they were then left free to cause havoc at my back. The vet ork player who was watching asked me why I didn't try to take out the drop pod and explode it, thus causing the SM squad more trouble. I calmly exclaimed: "That thing is a vehicle and not terrain when on the board?? Eff!" This was not helped by the fact the SM player didn't fire the storm bolter from the pod until after his squad was clear of it. He said he forgot. I call crafty.
Everyone laughed and laughed. Nah, the guys are cool. It's just easy to feel very novice around the veterans. They are probably more patient than what I give them credit for.
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Librarian's ghostLibrarian, Ghostbuster, and TimSporkRegistered Userregular
When someone takes nine Medusas (or Lemans, doesn't matter really) and a couple huge blob platoons with commissars attached to screen them, plus miscellanious other junk, there's not a whole hell of a lot you can do except watch a squad or two evaporate a turn. You don't need to capture objectives if you table your opponent.
So you haven't played with or against these lists have you. I've played a nine Russ list and Sj has played against me. You get to shoot with three units per turn. With Guard BS you'll hit with about half.
Each squadron fires as a barrage, don't they? So you only have to hit with one, and then oh hey look your three squads of six that just podded in are now three squads of one. Whoops.
That's not a very good example since I'm firing 1215 points of stuff at, what 300 and still not killing them all. If I fire that much at anything, with any codex, it should blow it away.
Every codex has stuff that may seem "cheesy" or "broken." What it looks like you're saying to me is that you want the IG to go back to it's old codex because you don't like playing against it. I'll tell you what right now, as much as I have fondness for the old IG codex, I am NOT going back to it.
Hey fellas and.. girls. Thoughts and comments on my 1500 tourney list?
Now this is just a firs draft. Light on troops? You betcha. But I feel the vehicular firepower should carry me through. Enough AP2 to tear apart any marines or monstrous creatures. My heavy slots can spit out 7 very painful templates, so that's basically my anti-horde. Marbo has quickly become a staple in all my lists. He's essentially a "get rid of one thing you don't like in the game, guaranteed" card. Mystics protect me from the drop pod lists and daemon lists that are so popular nowadays. Vendettas either outflank to wipe out all enemy armor, or if it's kill points they'll start on my side and just snipe things long range.
Eh, while cheesy as hell, depending on your army the 9 tank lists are not that scary. Make sure you read the vehicle squad rules carefully before playing such a list. Sure 9 tanks sounds great, but squadrons carry some harsh penalties. For Marines an Ironclad dread with 2 HK missiles in a drop pod costs 190, and can potentially wreck a whole squad with some luck on the turn it arrives. Even if the Ironclad doesn't wipe the squad, a whole squad will need to shoot the shit out of it or it will assault next turn and cause even more carnage to the tanks. Or if you have your assault marines hop behind cover towards them, they get to use their krak grenades against that juicy AV10 and you only need to touch one tank to hit the whole squad.
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"I was there, I was there, the day Horus slew the Emperor." -Cpt Garviel Loken
Yeah, the guys I play are helpful too. My last game I played against Space Marines. The first time I played against SM, and I don't have the new SM codex. He drop-podded in my back and for a turn, his tac squad was around the pod. I fired into the squad (killed one) but they were then left free to cause havoc at my back. The vet ork player who was watching asked me why I didn't try to take out the drop pod and explode it, thus causing the SM squad more trouble. I calmly exclaimed: "That thing is a vehicle and not terrain when on the board?? Eff!" This was not helped by the fact the SM player didn't fire the storm bolter from the pod until after his squad was clear of it. He said he forgot. I call crafty.
Everyone laughed and laughed. Nah, the guys are cool. It's just easy to feel very novice around the veterans. They are probably more patient than what I give them credit for.
First, you were right to shoot the squad :P You've got a 1/3 chance (unless you're firing a melta, which I doubt) to get an explosion on the pod. That would be a Str3 hit on the marines. You would need 5's to wound, and he'd have his 3+ saves. The Ork player no doubt suggested it, because its been done to him before.. but you're FAR more likely to wound an ork in an exterior explosion. Str3 vs T3 is 4's to hit, and he's got 6+ saves.
Second, he's actually not allowed to fire the storm bolter on the turn it arrives, as the vehicle has moved at cruising speed and is not a fast vehicle.
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When someone takes nine Medusas (or Lemans, doesn't matter really) and a couple huge blob platoons with commissars attached to screen them, plus miscellanious other junk, there's not a whole hell of a lot you can do except watch a squad or two evaporate a turn. You don't need to capture objectives if you table your opponent.
So you haven't played with or against these lists have you. I've played a nine Russ list and Sj has played against me. You get to shoot with three units per turn. With Guard BS you'll hit with about half.
Each squadron fires as a barrage, don't they? So you only have to hit with one, and then oh hey look your three squads of six that just podded in are now three squads of one. Whoops.
That's not a very good example since I'm firing 1215 points of stuff at, what 300 and still not killing them all. If I fire that much at anything, with any codex, it should blow it away.
Well, you're firing 405 against something and if not wiping it out at least crippling it, unless it's a mob of 30 gaunts/guardsmen/orks spread at max coherency.
Every codex has stuff that may seem "cheesy" or "broken."
Hell, every codex has stuff that is cheesy or broken. Maybe not Necrons or DE, but certainly everyone else.
What it looks like you're saying to me is that you want the IG to go back to it's old codex because you don't like playing against it. I'll tell you what right now, as much as I have fondness for the old IG codex, I am NOT going back to it.
I'm saying that it's very easy for Guard to build a very durable list that throws more pie-plates downrange than can be reasonably managed without screwing yourself against a horde army. I'm not a tourney gamer per se, but I do tend to look at things from a tourney environment, and right now the need to cope with both IG Armored Companies and Horde Orks would throw me into fits. Take a bunch of missile launchers and flamers and pray, I guess.
Nobody in their right mind would take 9 tanks... That's absolutely retarded and that list will lose so fast it'll make the player's head spin. It's a really bad decision. The fact that IG can take 9 tanks, though, has a lot of people screaming cheese.
Just assault it and watch the squad kill a unit worth 5 times its cost. Also, deepstrike.
Every codex has stuff that may seem "cheesy" or "broken."
Hell, every codex has stuff that is cheesy or broken. Maybe not Necrons or DE, but certainly everyone else.
I would like to play the DE or Necron opponents you've played :P
Monolith Spam? Combat Drugs? 30+ Dark Lances in a list? :P
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I'll admit, when I first saw that Ig could have that many tanks I was a bit concerned. But I also play 2 armies that are weak on the Anti tank. The fact that I have yet to see anybody do it, and added up the points and saw that holy crap thats a ton of wasted points got rid of any fears I had. It just really isn't feasible in a normal style 40k game. Every game I have had against the new guard has been fun and balanced.
Nobody in their right mind would take 9 tanks... That's absolutely retarded and that list will lose so fast it'll make the player's head spin. It's a really bad decision. The fact that IG can take 9 tanks, though, has a lot of people screaming cheese.
Just assault it and watch the squad kill a unit worth 5 times its cost. Also, deepstrike.
"Just assault it" presumes that:
The IG player doesn't blow up the assault element. He can't rely on that, and he may not target it immediately dependent on the rest of the force, but with S10 AP2 pie-plates it's entirely possible to blow the whole thing up in one go.
The IG player hasn't castled infantry around the tanks to prevent someone from assaulting them or deep striking. Spread at max coherency, it takes only 36 models to make a line all the way across a 6' board. It'll take more to castle them in an arc around the tanks to protect your flanks, but not so much that you can't protect it - in an 1850 list you can easily take three times that number (less if you're running LRBT rather than artillery, granted.)
You have an assault element that can reliably blow up tanks. Powerfists/klaws are great, but wound allocation occaisionally means the sarge bites it early.
Look, I'm not saying it's impossible to beat, I'm saying it's a giant pain in the ass and can act as a spoiler.
First, you were right to shoot the squad :P You've got a 1/3 chance (unless you're firing a melta, which I doubt) to get an explosion on the pod. That would be a Str3 hit on the marines. You would need 5's to wound, and he'd have his 3+ saves. The Ork player no doubt suggested it, because its been done to him before.. but you're FAR more likely to wound an ork in an exterior explosion. Str3 vs T3 is 4's to hit, and he's got 6+ saves.
Second, he's actually not allowed to fire the storm bolter on the turn it arrives, as the vehicle has moved at cruising speed and is not a fast vehicle.
Hmm. I fired a squad of 3 autocannons at the tac squad, so I may have (big maybe yeah) exploded the pod if I targeted it. But yeah, with their armor saves, it probably would done nothing. Though he expoded one my my Russes with a Terminator squad and killed one his termies. What save do they get?
Thanks for the tips and info. I may play the SM player again soon. I will need to pick up the SM codex to know my "enemy".
It's funny from a fluff standpoint, SM vs IG. I lost, but when somebody asked who won the game, the Ork player answered: The Imperium.
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Der Waffle MousBlame this on the misfortune of your birth.New Yark, New Yark.Registered Userregular
edited July 2009
Hm.
I wonder if I could fit the Phoenix Court of Khaine and the Ulthwe Seer Council into the same 2000pt apoc list...
I'm saying that it's very easy for Guard to build a very durable list that throws more pie-plates downrange than can be reasonably managed without screwing yourself against a horde army. I'm not a tourney gamer per se, but I do tend to look at things from a tourney environment, and right now the need to cope with both IG Armored Companies and Horde Orks would throw me into fits. Take a bunch of missile launchers and flamers and pray, I guess.
Honest to God, if you're playing marines, just take a balanced army that tends towards the horde-killing aspect (take missiles instead of heavy bolters), and you'll do fine against even armored companies a lot of the time, as long as you bought yourself the mobility to get up close to them.
First, you were right to shoot the squad :P You've got a 1/3 chance (unless you're firing a melta, which I doubt) to get an explosion on the pod. That would be a Str3 hit on the marines. You would need 5's to wound, and he'd have his 3+ saves. The Ork player no doubt suggested it, because its been done to him before.. but you're FAR more likely to wound an ork in an exterior explosion. Str3 vs T3 is 4's to hit, and he's got 6+ saves.
Second, he's actually not allowed to fire the storm bolter on the turn it arrives, as the vehicle has moved at cruising speed and is not a fast vehicle.
Hmm. I fired a squad of 3 autocannons at the tac squad, so I may have (big maybe yeah) exploded the pod if I targeted it. But yeah, with their armor saves, it probably would done nothing. Though he expoded one my my Russes with a Terminator squad and killed one his termies. What save do they get?
Thanks for the tips and info. I may play the SM player again soon. I will need to pick up the SM codex to know my "enemy".
It's funny from a fluff standpoint, SM vs IG. I lost, but when somebody asked who won the game, the Ork player answered: The Imperium.
Terminators have 2+ saves. Its certainly possible to marines in an explosion, absolutely.. but, its far less likely than just shooting the hell out of them
Shooting at the pod: 4's to hit. 5's to glance, 6's to pen. Then, on the damage table you need a 5 or a 6 for an explosion. Then, roll the radius of the explosion. Assuming that they had just disembarked and followed the rules, you'd need a 2+ to get them all (the easiest part :P). Then you roll 10 dice and need 5's to wound. He gets his 3+ saves.
Shooting at the squad: 4's to hit. 2's to wound. He gets his 3+ save, but you're far more likely to wound on the shots that hit.
I think you made the better choice, personally
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I'm saying that it's very easy for Guard to build a very durable list that throws more pie-plates downrange than can be reasonably managed without screwing yourself against a horde army. I'm not a tourney gamer per se, but I do tend to look at things from a tourney environment, and right now the need to cope with both IG Armored Companies and Horde Orks would throw me into fits. Take a bunch of missile launchers and flamers and pray, I guess.
Honest to God, if you're playing marines, just take a balanced army that tends towards the horde-killing aspect (take missiles instead of heavy bolters), and you'll do fine against even armored companies a lot of the time, as long as you bought yourself the mobility to get up close to them.
Missile Launchers can't kill Land Raiders, which are frighteningly common in my local meta.
Which I guess doesn't mean much, since nothing kills Land Raiders save for Multimeltas.
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I assume you mean Stormtroopers and not vets. Vets don't get hellguns.
Any information out yet?
Edit: In the last thread we posted a couple of sets of rumours about them here and here.
SPACE WOLVES?! MORE LIKE OP WOLVES!
"Oh what a day, what a LOVELY DAY!"
As for squad marking: My Guardsmen all have the same color/camo scheme, but I differentiate the platoons by base colors. My full-time vet squad are Vostroyans, so they are hard to misidentify.
Unless you're playing a comparatively low model-count army, like Noise Marines or Crimson Fists. Yes, orks will get to you and push your shit right in. Not everyone plays orks.
Company Command w/Missile Launcher
2xPlatoon Command w/Missile Launcher
6xInfantry Squad w/Missile Launcher, Commissar (deployed as two blobs of 30)
2x3 Sentinels
3x3 Medusas
1815 points. Another fifty to throw around on wargear. I generally play at 2k.
Standard board is 48" wide. That means if they deploy at the front, nine Medusas can basically hit anything on the board, especially since you can scatter past max range. Also keep in mind that with a few very rare exceptions a dedicated AT unit can only shoot at a single squadron a turn, and that line units who move up to melta range are vulnerable to countercharge by the blob (which can be exploited but which is tricky.)
An Armored Company can be countered, yes... by a list built to do so (or which is naturally strong against AC such as footsloggin' Orks.) It is extremely difficult to shut down by a take-all-comers list, which cannot heavily invest in AT weapons (because of Orks.)
being slow because you're new and learning is entirely different from being slow because you're just slow.
The guy I was talking about has been playing 40k since the Rogue Trader days.
It really is terrible when people are like we need to hurry this game and than go off and do something else or talk and delay the game themselves.
You do realize that if those tanks are screened by anything at all you get a Cover save right? and if they're not you can murk them with tank hunters?
My Death Company love squadron'd vehicles and walkers :P
I made a decision not to with Sisters, since they can ceom in squads from 5-20, making it rather hard to keep them in static squads. Best to let them mingle with whoever they want.
I especially like it when I actually cause them to have to think and take their time during their turn because of something I did that threw them for a loop. Heh.
I'm not angry, just talking.
I'm also wholly incapable of making cover saves, which no doubt plays into my general distaste for that particular list.
There's other dumb stuff IG can do, as well - outflanking a half-dozen Chimeras into the backfield with Al'Raheim comes to mind, and is honestly probably worse than the mass HS.
I wouldnt sweat it man, im a newb and the guys at the club i play at havent given me crap. Hell they actually try and give me tips. Its as much who you play as how you play ive discovered.
It's not bad, but since you roll each unit individually, it can come in piecemeal unless you have two astropaths.
Those were my favorite moments early on when learning too :P
I remember one early game where I was playing a Tau player who had been playing for years and years. I was chasing down a Fire Warrior squad that was on foot and giving me some trouble. They had run behind a hill of sorts, and he detached some gun drones from a devilfish and sent them into the chokepoint I was running down, blocking the exit. On my turn, I jumped (they were assault troops) up onto the mountain so I could shoot pistols down on the Fire Warriors. I didn't get to assault them because of the gun drone block, but I was able to kill enough to force a morale test, which they failed. He remarked, "Hmmm, I really expected you to take the bait... Way to keep your eye on the bigger picture, a lot of people would have taken the sure charge."
Early on, I also was able to bait a veteran Dark Eldar player into bringing a Raider into range of Dante and his Veteran Assault Squad. He pulled up and took some Dark Lance shots at the side of a sheilding rhino, only to have Dante and friends jump over a hill and melta the holy hell out of the raider
Now this is just a firs draft. Light on troops? You betcha. But I feel the vehicular firepower should carry me through. Enough AP2 to tear apart any marines or monstrous creatures. My heavy slots can spit out 7 very painful templates, so that's basically my anti-horde. Marbo has quickly become a staple in all my lists. He's essentially a "get rid of one thing you don't like in the game, guaranteed" card. Mystics protect me from the drop pod lists and daemon lists that are so popular nowadays. Vendettas either outflank to wipe out all enemy armor, or if it's kill points they'll start on my side and just snipe things long range.
Heavy: LRBT w/plasma cannon sponsons = 190
Heavy: Demolisher = 165
Heavy: Manticore = 160
Fast: Vendetta = 130
Fast: Vendetta = 130
Fast: Vendetta = 130
HQ: CCS w/officer of the fleet = 80
HQ: CCS w/astropath = 80
Elite: Marbo = 65
Elite: Inquisitor w/2 mystics = 32
Troops: Vets w/3 plasma guns = 115 (probably in Vendetta)
Troops: Vets w/3 plasma guns = 115 (probably in Vendetta)
Troops: Vets w/3 melta guns = 100 (probably in Vendetta)
Total: 1492
Everyone laughed and laughed. Nah, the guys are cool. It's just easy to feel very novice around the veterans. They are probably more patient than what I give them credit for.
That's not a very good example since I'm firing 1215 points of stuff at, what 300 and still not killing them all. If I fire that much at anything, with any codex, it should blow it away.
Every codex has stuff that may seem "cheesy" or "broken." What it looks like you're saying to me is that you want the IG to go back to it's old codex because you don't like playing against it. I'll tell you what right now, as much as I have fondness for the old IG codex, I am NOT going back to it.
I Like this list. I say run with it and see how it goes.
Currently painting: Slowly [flickr]
First, you were right to shoot the squad :P You've got a 1/3 chance (unless you're firing a melta, which I doubt) to get an explosion on the pod. That would be a Str3 hit on the marines. You would need 5's to wound, and he'd have his 3+ saves. The Ork player no doubt suggested it, because its been done to him before.. but you're FAR more likely to wound an ork in an exterior explosion. Str3 vs T3 is 4's to hit, and he's got 6+ saves.
Second, he's actually not allowed to fire the storm bolter on the turn it arrives, as the vehicle has moved at cruising speed and is not a fast vehicle.
Hell, every codex has stuff that is cheesy or broken. Maybe not Necrons or DE, but certainly everyone else.
I'm saying that it's very easy for Guard to build a very durable list that throws more pie-plates downrange than can be reasonably managed without screwing yourself against a horde army. I'm not a tourney gamer per se, but I do tend to look at things from a tourney environment, and right now the need to cope with both IG Armored Companies and Horde Orks would throw me into fits. Take a bunch of missile launchers and flamers and pray, I guess.
Just assault it and watch the squad kill a unit worth 5 times its cost. Also, deepstrike.
I would like to play the DE or Necron opponents you've played :P
Monolith Spam? Combat Drugs? 30+ Dark Lances in a list? :P
"Just assault it" presumes that:
The IG player doesn't blow up the assault element. He can't rely on that, and he may not target it immediately dependent on the rest of the force, but with S10 AP2 pie-plates it's entirely possible to blow the whole thing up in one go.
The IG player hasn't castled infantry around the tanks to prevent someone from assaulting them or deep striking. Spread at max coherency, it takes only 36 models to make a line all the way across a 6' board. It'll take more to castle them in an arc around the tanks to protect your flanks, but not so much that you can't protect it - in an 1850 list you can easily take three times that number (less if you're running LRBT rather than artillery, granted.)
You have an assault element that can reliably blow up tanks. Powerfists/klaws are great, but wound allocation occaisionally means the sarge bites it early.
Look, I'm not saying it's impossible to beat, I'm saying it's a giant pain in the ass and can act as a spoiler.
Hmm. I fired a squad of 3 autocannons at the tac squad, so I may have (big maybe yeah) exploded the pod if I targeted it. But yeah, with their armor saves, it probably would done nothing. Though he expoded one my my Russes with a Terminator squad and killed one his termies. What save do they get?
Thanks for the tips and info. I may play the SM player again soon. I will need to pick up the SM codex to know my "enemy".
It's funny from a fluff standpoint, SM vs IG. I lost, but when somebody asked who won the game, the Ork player answered: The Imperium.
I wonder if I could fit the Phoenix Court of Khaine and the Ulthwe Seer Council into the same 2000pt apoc list...
Honest to God, if you're playing marines, just take a balanced army that tends towards the horde-killing aspect (take missiles instead of heavy bolters), and you'll do fine against even armored companies a lot of the time, as long as you bought yourself the mobility to get up close to them.
I've never played against DE. If the Necron is taking three monoliths phase-out shouldn't be terribly difficult.
Terminators have 2+ saves. Its certainly possible to marines in an explosion, absolutely.. but, its far less likely than just shooting the hell out of them
Shooting at the pod: 4's to hit. 5's to glance, 6's to pen. Then, on the damage table you need a 5 or a 6 for an explosion. Then, roll the radius of the explosion. Assuming that they had just disembarked and followed the rules, you'd need a 2+ to get them all (the easiest part :P). Then you roll 10 dice and need 5's to wound. He gets his 3+ saves.
Shooting at the squad: 4's to hit. 2's to wound. He gets his 3+ save, but you're far more likely to wound on the shots that hit.
I think you made the better choice, personally
Missile Launchers can't kill Land Raiders, which are frighteningly common in my local meta.
Which I guess doesn't mean much, since nothing kills Land Raiders save for Multimeltas.