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Pickup artists (related to Monday's front-page convo)

Spiffy McBangSpiffy McBang Registered User regular
edited August 2009 in Debate and/or Discourse
Linky: http://community.feministing.com/2009/08/updated-george-sodini-and-the.html

Right off the bat you might see the site name and say, "Ah christ, they're not going to be neutral at all." And that's true. In fact, I'm not a huge fan of the linked post myself- as I say in the comments there, the points are correct, but it's very negative, unnecessarily so.

But if the back-and-forth between Tycho and Gabe about pickup artists and their methods versus feminine wiles and whatnot got you thinking even a little bit, I encourage you to follow the link and read both the post and the comments. Please try not to jump on the couple of people who appear to overreact- I haven't been going to that site very long and I've still seen several instances where guys jump in and get all defensive when there's no need, and the regulars there are understandably tired of it. Read it over, get a feel for how the members of that site view the issue; it may well be considerably different from what you're used to hearing from others or thinking yourself.

Also, although the George Sodini case is only mentioned in passing (despite it being in the title), think about the size of the leap it takes to go from simply frustrated to murderously so. Think about some of the uberdorks you might know who obsess over finding a girlfriend but just can't figure out how to do it. A lot of them remain perfectly respectful, but some start getting angry at the women because they can't determine how they themselves are failing. And our culture, while enormously less accepting of violence against women than it once was, still often fails to treat it as a serious problem. Sodini was a batshit psycho, no doubt. But this is a case where it's possible to piece together where his frayed logic stemmed from. In those instances, we need to be aware that the same result could strike others, and if we know someone potentially like that, try to help them and steer them away from bitterness.

(If you don't know who George Sodini is, he's the guy that shot several women, killing three, in a fitness club near Pittsburgh. If that doesn't ring a bell, Google it.)

Hopefully this doesn't bomb off the first page in ten minutes. I'll be interested to see what people think, if this goes anywhere.

Spiffy McBang on
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Posts

  • TinuzTinuz Registered User
    edited August 2009
    Ehm....how about: That article is terribly written?

    Other than that.....good point, but ooooooooooold. Really, pick up artists and their misogynistic ways, treating women like objects for sex etc.....where's the news? Okay, so one went nuts and killed a bunch of people...the law of large numbers can be blamed for that, I guess. So again, no news.

    Quelreth wrote:
    .....when you made it sound like turning on a blacklight in your room would be like setting off a flashbang.
  • The CatThe Cat Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited August 2009
    obligatory "pandagon did it better" post. Feministing's way too earnest and self-impressed for me, and the comments sections are troll central.

    And really, PUA's preyed on Sodini and continue to prey on guys like him, for nothing more than money. He was different from most victims of their scams in that probably always going to kill someone, but spending years and years taking his money and then convincing him that women owed him sex just because he washed and had a job just compounded the guy's frustrations to the point where this became not only possible, but highly probable.

    tmsig.jpg
  • The CatThe Cat Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited August 2009
    ...also, hoo boy, I kind of feel sorry for Gabe after reading the front page. "Men have nothing women want"? Like yourself more, dude.

    tmsig.jpg
  • RecklessReckless Registered User
    edited August 2009
    I don't see what, exactly, is to be said here. This dude was probably generally unstable and unbalanced. Are we blaming the PUA guys for sending him over the edge?

    Arch wrote: »
    That much sex will make you stay with ANY kind of crazy bitch.
  • The CatThe Cat Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited August 2009
    Reckless wrote: »
    I don't see what, exactly, is to be said here. This dude was probably generally unstable and unbalanced. Are we blaming the PUA guys for sending him over the edge?
    Giving him a hearty pat on the shoulder but a simultaneous kick in the back of the knee, so yeah pretty much. And its kind of hard to argue against once you link through and read some of those posts in the piece I linked :/

    tmsig.jpg
  • nexuscrawlernexuscrawler Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    Nah she's saying the PUA guys make tons of money off of exploiting guys with low self esteem

  • The CatThe Cat Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited August 2009
    Nah she's saying the PUA guys make tons of money off of exploiting guys with low self esteem
    oh, that too. Its amazing how much bank they make out of peddling common knowledge with a dose of confirmation bias

    also, they're dreadfully creepy fellows, the creepy is contagious, and I like my men non-creepy kthnx

    tmsig.jpg
  • DuffelDuffel Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    Yeah, the posts on the front page are a little bit TMI...

    While I think that the whole PUA thing is definitely a problem it's not the only problem. Grossly inappropriate behavior toward the opposite sex (esp. re: men toward women) is reinforced in our society and media from day one. The PUA community is just the honest about what it is and what beliefs undergird their worldview. Although they take them to a creepy and disturbing extreme, the ideas that underly their 'philosophy' are hardly uncommon. Sodini would have undoubtedly held these beliefs had he never been exposed to PUA, they just wouldn't have been so definite and explicit.

  • MimMim Return of Saturn Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2009/08/06/mens-rights-activists-anti-feminists-and-other-misogynists-comment-on-george-sodini/

    Seriously disturbing comments. NSFBP (Not Safe for Blood Pressure)

    I don't think PUAs are what we should be concerned with when there are tons of men out there you believe THIS crap and haven't come into contact with PUAs but just are that way through possibly cultural means. The man felt he was owed sex and companionship because he was a man and that women really needed to wrap their heads around that. Apparently this thought process has a following, and these "people" are telling others that they shouldn't be surprised if more women get shot for being independent and choosing who they want to be with because they are women and don't really have a say in the matter.

  • electricitylikesmeelectricitylikesme Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    I'm going to elect not to read that because there's a risk I may take a life myself. Hey hey! I think the PUAs really are the problem!

  • RecklessReckless Registered User
    edited August 2009
    That attitude absolutely sickens me. Dudes like that must have absolutely zero self-confidence.

    Arch wrote: »
    That much sex will make you stay with ANY kind of crazy bitch.
  • The CatThe Cat Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited August 2009
    possibly cultural? its all cultural; people usually have to be taught to be such assholes. The relevant messages are out there wherever you look, to varying degrees of subtlety, and more importantly there isn't a strong opposing viewpoint occupying the same mental space.

    tmsig.jpg
  • DasUberEdwardDasUberEdward Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    I don't think every individual in the PUA community is a complete misogynist. Some of em are just lonely socially inept folks who are basically looking for a strategy guide for life. Unfortunately what they end up finding is manipulative and shallow but the problem is that it can be effective and when something as disturbing as the PUA perspective manages to provide them with what they've been looking for (i use the word provide in a very lose sense here. it's awfully illusory and misguided) they will naturally overlook just how terrible it is.

    It's a very sad place and if you look at all of the founders and what not the majority of them either broke down or realized just how childish they were and moved on.

    steam_sig.png
  • ImprovoloneImprovolone Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    I can see where Gabe is coming from, but I feel like he is missing the point that giving shy nervous men confidence to talk to women is more of a side effect for programs like this. Sure they will advertise it as the purpose, but I've heard interviews with prominent people in this "community" (I hate that word for this). It's teaching people how to be confident and manipulative with one goal in mind; banging a hot chick, not being a better well rounded person. I am all for helping people become more confident.

    Voice actor for hire. My time is free if your project is!
  • DuffelDuffel Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    ...when did the idea begin that "buying drinks = you must fuck me"?

    It seems like anybody, even the creepiest perv on the bus who puts his hands down his pants every time a college student gets on, should realize what a strange nonsequitur this is. But apparently there are whole swathes of the male population who seem to believe that going up to a bartender, handing him a few dollars and telling him who to give it to gives them instant vaginal access?

    I suppose it's just a residual belief in that "good girls are at home = women in public are whores = whores will have sex with you if adequately compensated" (in this case, with about $15 worth of drinks, apparently).

  • The CatThe Cat Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited August 2009
    Eh, its the same phenomenon as those guys who go nuts after a divorce, same root cause, same development of bewildered schmuck into creepy nutbar and all

    In detail: a goodly percentage of the above are really awful dudes with histories of abuse and massive entitlement issues, but another significant fraction are just kind of clueless, let their relationship slide without realising it, and then got blindsided by their partner leaving

    so they go online looking for a little emotional support (because they also don't have many other strong RL ties now that their wife no longer mediates their social life), stumble into the wrong end of the internet, and find themselves being told over and over that they're being screwed over by the evil harpy and that the best cure is revenge, via an extended campaign of lawyer-assisted harassment

    of course, half the people posting in that corner of the internet are said horrible dudes, and the rest are lawyers indulging in a new and interesting form of ambulance-chasing. Substitute PUA guys for lawyers, and bada bing

    epic clusterfuck

    tmsig.jpg
  • SpindizzySpindizzy Registered User
    edited August 2009
    http://www.amazon.co.uk/Game-Undercover-Society-Pick-up-Artists/dp/1841957518/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1249997824&sr=8-3

    I was reading this book when sitting in my local library and I have to agree the PUA community seems a little sad and messed up.

    However, the reason I started to read the book is because although the execution of these guys is wrong they do have a point - one that Gabe made too, meeting girls can be incredibly difficult for guys. Essentially, though most people subscribe to ideas of equality i'd argue that in most situations were strangers meet the onus is on the man to make an initial move. This means that women have the right to say yes or no and not have that impact upon their self esteem.

    I know this isn't the absolute iron cast way of things but in general at least men are putting themselves out there and risk emotional discomfort some people grow thickskins and treat women as objects and others retreat from the whole operation.

    Though I think the whole PUA thing is a scam I've always wondered about the possibility of running a sexual politics university course...

  • RentRent I'm always right Fuckin' deal with itRegistered User regular
    edited August 2009
    Honestly as a socially inept male with extraordinarily low self-esteem/cyclical depression (which I'm getting treatment for) I can really sympathize with this story
    I think a lot of "us" (socially inept males) have the belief, mistaken or not, that they're worthless at a majority of the things we do, and thus don't deserve any significant relationship with the other sex. Even though objectively I'm probably a "catch" (I'm hard-working, honest, polite, friendly, able to converse fairly well) my hang-ups (I'm clumsy, extremely forgetful, I say the wrong things unintentionally/ get tongue-tied easily, I'm awkward around people when I first meet them) put me in the position where I believe I'm a worthless persona and therefore a worthless boyfriend who doesn't deserve happiness

    So, putting all the sexist misogynistic bullshit aside, if PUAs teach dudes to ignore their faults and have enough self-confidence to truly believe that they're hot shit and they have a right to a loving relationship, I'd say they are an objectively good thing

    But I dunno

  • The CatThe Cat Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited August 2009
    meeting people is often incredibly difficult for people, actually. y'all don't get to single yourselves out as special over this.

    tmsig.jpg
  • DuffelDuffel Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    Rent wrote: »
    So, putting all the sexist misogynistic bullshit aside, if PUAs teach dudes to ignore their faults and have enough self-confidence to truly believe that they're hot shit and they have a right to a loving relationship, I'd say they are an objectively good thing
    That's not what they teach.

    Instead they teach that all women are "bitches" (literally, this is terminology here) and that men are entitled to have sex with them and there are a few simple rules to follow and any woman will jump on their wang.

  • DasUberEdwardDasUberEdward Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    Yeah to say that "putting yourself out there" is something that only men have to do is pretty damn silly.

    steam_sig.png
  • RentRent I'm always right Fuckin' deal with itRegistered User regular
    edited August 2009
    The Cat wrote: »
    meeting people is often incredibly difficult for people, actually. y'all don't get to single yourselves out as special over this.

    I would argue that females have a significantly easier time approaching males for the purposes of a relationship than males

  • ImprovoloneImprovolone Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    The Cat wrote: »
    Eh, its the same phenomenon as those guys who go nuts after a divorce, same root cause, same development of bewildered schmuck into creepy nutbar and all

    In detail: a goodly percentage of the above are really awful dudes with histories of abuse and massive entitlement issues, but another significant fraction are just kind of clueless, let their relationship slide without realising it, and then got blindsided by their partner leaving
    Having dealt with separation on this level... it's pretty fucking easy for the guy to feel like he was totally fucked. This goes beyond him being an asshole and beyond him being clueless. Sure women can feel this way too, but only in the last couple of years have men started to get equal rights when it comes to child rights. It could cost me thousands of dollars in attorney and court fees to get back my stuff that I had in college before I eve met my ex. Can't help but feel totally fucked over by a cunt of a woman when everything is factored in. Unless the people split up because "hey, you're great but this isn't working", someone is going to get reamed.
    I am more or less agreeing with you, just expanding on what its like to be a man.

    Voice actor for hire. My time is free if your project is!
  • DasUberEdwardDasUberEdward Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    Duffel wrote: »
    Rent wrote: »
    So, putting all the sexist misogynistic bullshit aside, if PUAs teach dudes to ignore their faults and have enough self-confidence to truly believe that they're hot shit and they have a right to a loving relationship, I'd say they are an objectively good thing
    That's not what they teach.

    Instead they teach that all women are "bitches" (literally, this is terminology here) and that men are entitled to have sex with them and there are a few simple rules to follow and any woman will jump on their wang.

    Let's not get carried away. There are different camps and what not inside of the community. Some are more chauvinistic than others.

    steam_sig.png
  • nexuscrawlernexuscrawler Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    Rent wrote: »
    Honestly as a socially inept male with extraordinarily low self-esteem/cyclical depression (which I'm getting treatment for) I can really sympathize with this story
    I think a lot of "us" (socially inept males) have the belief, mistaken or not, that they're worthless at a majority of the things we do, and thus don't deserve any significant relationship with the other sex. Even though objectively I'm probably a "catch" (I'm hard-working, honest, polite, friendly, able to converse fairly well) my hang-ups (I'm clumsy, extremely forgetful, I say the wrong things unintentionally/ get tongue-tied easily, I'm awkward around people when I first meet them) put me in the position where I believe I'm a worthless persona and therefore a worthless boyfriend who doesn't deserve happiness

    So, putting all the sexist misogynistic bullshit aside, if PUAs teach dudes to ignore their faults and have enough self-confidence to truly believe that they're hot shit and they have a right to a loving relationship, I'd say they are an objectively good thing

    But I dunno

    You don't have a right to anything. Pretending banging chicks is your inalienable "right" basically denies women the right to chose to say no. you can visibly see guys who take this approach get angry when they are rejected because they feel they're owed sex for doing the right things.

    Also PUA philosophy have NOTHING TO DO WITH CONFIDENCE. It has everything to do with putting up false fronts and appearances. To someone with low self-esteem you're basically telling them "you're the guy girls don't want here pretend to be someone else and you'll get women".

  • RentRent I'm always right Fuckin' deal with itRegistered User regular
    edited August 2009
    Duffel wrote: »
    Rent wrote: »
    So, putting all the sexist misogynistic bullshit aside, if PUAs teach dudes to ignore their faults and have enough self-confidence to truly believe that they're hot shit and they have a right to a loving relationship, I'd say they are an objectively good thing
    That's not what they teach.

    Instead they teach that all women are "bitches" (literally, this is terminology here) and that men are entitled to have sex with them and there are a few simple rules to follow and any woman will jump on their wang.

    Oh well then that's fucked up then

  • DasUberEdwardDasUberEdward Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    The Cat wrote: »
    Eh, its the same phenomenon as those guys who go nuts after a divorce, same root cause, same development of bewildered schmuck into creepy nutbar and all

    In detail: a goodly percentage of the above are really awful dudes with histories of abuse and massive entitlement issues, but another significant fraction are just kind of clueless, let their relationship slide without realising it, and then got blindsided by their partner leaving

    so they go online looking for a little emotional support (because they also don't have many other strong RL ties now that their wife no longer mediates their social life), stumble into the wrong end of the internet, and find themselves being told over and over that they're being screwed over by the evil harpy and that the best cure is revenge, via an extended campaign of lawyer-assisted harassment

    of course, half the people posting in that corner of the internet are said horrible dudes, and the rest are lawyers indulging in a new and interesting form of ambulance-chasing. Substitute PUA guys for lawyers, and bada bing

    epic clusterfuck

    Yeah this. Most people don't want to accept that they are at fault by default (tee-hee) so when they stumble upon other people saying.

    You're so right! You're totally not at fault at all!

    They latch on.

    steam_sig.png
  • AdrienAdrien Registered User
    edited August 2009
    The Cat wrote: »
    obligatory "pandagon did it better" post. Feministing's way too earnest and self-impressed for me, and the comments sections are troll central.

    And really, PUA's preyed on Sodini and continue to prey on guys like him, for nothing more than money. He was different from most victims of their scams in that probably always going to kill someone, but spending years and years taking his money and then convincing him that women owed him sex just because he washed and had a job just compounded the guy's frustrations to the point where this became not only possible, but highly probable.

    I think that's what's essentially wrong with their philosophy. It's all about covering up the simple fact that people will have sex with you. Full stop. If people are not having sex with you, it's not because you're not asking the right way-- it's because you're not asking, period.

    tmkm.jpg
  • poshnialloposhniallo Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    Duffel wrote: »
    Rent wrote: »
    So, putting all the sexist misogynistic bullshit aside, if PUAs teach dudes to ignore their faults and have enough self-confidence to truly believe that they're hot shit and they have a right to a loving relationship, I'd say they are an objectively good thing
    That's not what they teach.

    Instead they teach that all women are "bitches" (literally, this is terminology here) and that men are entitled to have sex with them and there are a few simple rules to follow and any woman will jump on their wang.

    Let's not get carried away. There are different camps and what not inside of the community. Some are more chauvinistic than others.

    Do any of them regard women as human beings on the same level as men, whose right to choose is both respected and desired?

    I figure I could take a bear.
  • DasUberEdwardDasUberEdward Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    Duffel wrote: »
    Rent wrote: »
    So, putting all the sexist misogynistic bullshit aside, if PUAs teach dudes to ignore their faults and have enough self-confidence to truly believe that they're hot shit and they have a right to a loving relationship, I'd say they are an objectively good thing
    That's not what they teach.

    Instead they teach that all women are "bitches" (literally, this is terminology here) and that men are entitled to have sex with them and there are a few simple rules to follow and any woman will jump on their wang.

    Let's not get carried away. There are different camps and what not inside of the community. Some are more chauvinistic than others.

    Just going to quote this.

    While not every story is a story about promoting confidence, social skills, and improved well being they do exist.

    steam_sig.png
  • ImprovoloneImprovolone Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    Yeah to say that "putting yourself out there" is something that only men have to do is pretty damn silly.

    Men don't know what its like to be a woman, and women don't know what its like to be a man. Trans-gendered people are really on the forefront of figuring this shit out, but I don't know how many are here.
    This would be a great thread to go into the dating perceptions of both genders.

    Voice actor for hire. My time is free if your project is!
  • MorninglordMorninglord Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    Rent wrote: »
    The Cat wrote: »
    meeting people is often incredibly difficult for people, actually. y'all don't get to single yourselves out as special over this.

    I would argue that females have a significantly easier time approaching males for the purposes of a relationship than males

    bullshit

    its a two way street of nervousness

    Location: Sydney, Australia
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  • DasUberEdwardDasUberEdward Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    poshniallo wrote: »
    Duffel wrote: »
    Rent wrote: »
    So, putting all the sexist misogynistic bullshit aside, if PUAs teach dudes to ignore their faults and have enough self-confidence to truly believe that they're hot shit and they have a right to a loving relationship, I'd say they are an objectively good thing
    That's not what they teach.

    Instead they teach that all women are "bitches" (literally, this is terminology here) and that men are entitled to have sex with them and there are a few simple rules to follow and any woman will jump on their wang.

    Let's not get carried away. There are different camps and what not inside of the community. Some are more chauvinistic than others.

    Do any of them regard women as human beings on the same level as men, whose right to choose is both respected and desired?

    Yes.

    steam_sig.png
  • RentRent I'm always right Fuckin' deal with itRegistered User regular
    edited August 2009
    Rent wrote: »
    Honestly as a socially inept male with extraordinarily low self-esteem/cyclical depression (which I'm getting treatment for) I can really sympathize with this story
    I think a lot of "us" (socially inept males) have the belief, mistaken or not, that they're worthless at a majority of the things we do, and thus don't deserve any significant relationship with the other sex. Even though objectively I'm probably a "catch" (I'm hard-working, honest, polite, friendly, able to converse fairly well) my hang-ups (I'm clumsy, extremely forgetful, I say the wrong things unintentionally/ get tongue-tied easily, I'm awkward around people when I first meet them) put me in the position where I believe I'm a worthless persona and therefore a worthless boyfriend who doesn't deserve happiness

    So, putting all the sexist misogynistic bullshit aside, if PUAs teach dudes to ignore their faults and have enough self-confidence to truly believe that they're hot shit and they have a right to a loving relationship, I'd say they are an objectively good thing

    But I dunno

    You don't have a right to anything. Pretending banging chicks is your inalienable "right" basically denies women the right to chose to say no. you can visibly see guys who take this approach get angry when they are rejected because they feel they're owed sex for doing the right things.

    Also PUA philosophy have NOTHING TO DO WITH CONFIDENCE. It has everything to do with putting up false fronts and appearances. To someone with low self-esteem you're basically telling them "you're the guy girls don't want here pretend to be someone else and you'll get women".

    Right
    Because I said that "banging chicks is an inalienable right"
    Or implied it
    Or something
    Instead of you strawmanning my arguement that "good guys with no self-confidence deserve to have a loving relationship instead of torturing themselves with the pretense that they're worthless human beings"
    I mean seriously what the fuck?

  • The CatThe Cat Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited August 2009
    Rent wrote: »
    The Cat wrote: »
    meeting people is often incredibly difficult for people, actually. y'all don't get to single yourselves out as special over this.

    I would argue that females have a significantly easier time approaching males for the purposes of a relationship than males
    and you would be absolutely wrong

    also, why should this scariness be confined to sexual relationships? Are they the only ones worth talking about?

    agh. I'm not trying to minimise how some of you clearly feel, but you have to realise that you're not any more or less hard done by than any other person in a similar position of social isolation.

    tmsig.jpg
  • poshnialloposhniallo Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    poshniallo wrote: »
    Duffel wrote: »
    Rent wrote: »
    So, putting all the sexist misogynistic bullshit aside, if PUAs teach dudes to ignore their faults and have enough self-confidence to truly believe that they're hot shit and they have a right to a loving relationship, I'd say they are an objectively good thing
    That's not what they teach.

    Instead they teach that all women are "bitches" (literally, this is terminology here) and that men are entitled to have sex with them and there are a few simple rules to follow and any woman will jump on their wang.

    Let's not get carried away. There are different camps and what not inside of the community. Some are more chauvinistic than others.

    Do any of them regard women as human beings on the same level as men, whose right to choose is both respected and desired?

    Yes.

    That's great (no sarcasm intended at all) but I'm surprised people who thought that would have anything to do with people who describe themselves as Pick Up Artists.

    I figure I could take a bear.
  • RentRent I'm always right Fuckin' deal with itRegistered User regular
    edited August 2009
    Rent wrote: »
    The Cat wrote: »
    meeting people is often incredibly difficult for people, actually. y'all don't get to single yourselves out as special over this.

    I would argue that females have a significantly easier time approaching males for the purposes of a relationship than males

    bullshit

    its a two way street of nervousness

    Yes but one side is a 12-lane superhighway of nervousness and the other is one lane of anxiety

  • The CatThe Cat Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited August 2009
    poshniallo wrote: »
    Duffel wrote: »
    Rent wrote: »
    So, putting all the sexist misogynistic bullshit aside, if PUAs teach dudes to ignore their faults and have enough self-confidence to truly believe that they're hot shit and they have a right to a loving relationship, I'd say they are an objectively good thing
    That's not what they teach.

    Instead they teach that all women are "bitches" (literally, this is terminology here) and that men are entitled to have sex with them and there are a few simple rules to follow and any woman will jump on their wang.

    Let's not get carried away. There are different camps and what not inside of the community. Some are more chauvinistic than others.

    Do any of them regard women as human beings on the same level as men, whose right to choose is both respected and desired?

    Yes.

    they're very much an exception though, and more importantly they're still charging for stuff you can learn for free

    tmsig.jpg
  • DasUberEdwardDasUberEdward Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    poshniallo wrote: »
    poshniallo wrote: »
    Duffel wrote: »
    Rent wrote: »
    So, putting all the sexist misogynistic bullshit aside, if PUAs teach dudes to ignore their faults and have enough self-confidence to truly believe that they're hot shit and they have a right to a loving relationship, I'd say they are an objectively good thing
    That's not what they teach.

    Instead they teach that all women are "bitches" (literally, this is terminology here) and that men are entitled to have sex with them and there are a few simple rules to follow and any woman will jump on their wang.

    Let's not get carried away. There are different camps and what not inside of the community. Some are more chauvinistic than others.

    Do any of them regard women as human beings on the same level as men, whose right to choose is both respected and desired?

    Yes.

    That's great (no sarcasm intended at all) but I'm surprised people who thought that would have anything to do with people who describe themselves as Pick Up Artists.

    I won't get into it but PUA is a newer label that gained popularity. The whole thing started off under lots of different names.

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  • DuffelDuffel Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    Just going to quote this.

    While not every story is a story about promoting confidence, social skills, and improved well being they do exist.
    I will admit that I have never read PUA literature, but even the supposedly "good" aspects I've heard about of these things involve inherently misogynistic sentiments like, "Leave her better than you found her", which implies that women somehow a) need to be improved by outside forces and b) that it's up to the reader to determine when, where and how without the woman's choosing to do so.

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