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Pickup artists (related to Monday's front-page convo)

Spiffy McBangSpiffy McBang Registered User regular
edited August 2009 in Debate and/or Discourse
Linky: http://community.feministing.com/2009/08/updated-george-sodini-and-the.html

Right off the bat you might see the site name and say, "Ah christ, they're not going to be neutral at all." And that's true. In fact, I'm not a huge fan of the linked post myself- as I say in the comments there, the points are correct, but it's very negative, unnecessarily so.

But if the back-and-forth between Tycho and Gabe about pickup artists and their methods versus feminine wiles and whatnot got you thinking even a little bit, I encourage you to follow the link and read both the post and the comments. Please try not to jump on the couple of people who appear to overreact- I haven't been going to that site very long and I've still seen several instances where guys jump in and get all defensive when there's no need, and the regulars there are understandably tired of it. Read it over, get a feel for how the members of that site view the issue; it may well be considerably different from what you're used to hearing from others or thinking yourself.

Also, although the George Sodini case is only mentioned in passing (despite it being in the title), think about the size of the leap it takes to go from simply frustrated to murderously so. Think about some of the uberdorks you might know who obsess over finding a girlfriend but just can't figure out how to do it. A lot of them remain perfectly respectful, but some start getting angry at the women because they can't determine how they themselves are failing. And our culture, while enormously less accepting of violence against women than it once was, still often fails to treat it as a serious problem. Sodini was a batshit psycho, no doubt. But this is a case where it's possible to piece together where his frayed logic stemmed from. In those instances, we need to be aware that the same result could strike others, and if we know someone potentially like that, try to help them and steer them away from bitterness.

(If you don't know who George Sodini is, he's the guy that shot several women, killing three, in a fitness club near Pittsburgh. If that doesn't ring a bell, Google it.)

Hopefully this doesn't bomb off the first page in ten minutes. I'll be interested to see what people think, if this goes anywhere.

Spiffy McBang on
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Posts

  • RentRent I'm always right Fuckin' deal with itRegistered User regular
    edited August 2009
    Rent wrote: »
    The Cat wrote: »
    meeting people is often incredibly difficult for people, actually. y'all don't get to single yourselves out as special over this.

    I would argue that females have a significantly easier time approaching males for the purposes of a relationship than males

    bullshit

    its a two way street of nervousness

    Yes but one side is a 12-lane superhighway of nervousness and the other is one lane of anxiety

  • The CatThe Cat Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited August 2009
    poshniallo wrote: »
    Duffel wrote: »
    Rent wrote: »
    So, putting all the sexist misogynistic bullshit aside, if PUAs teach dudes to ignore their faults and have enough self-confidence to truly believe that they're hot shit and they have a right to a loving relationship, I'd say they are an objectively good thing
    That's not what they teach.

    Instead they teach that all women are "bitches" (literally, this is terminology here) and that men are entitled to have sex with them and there are a few simple rules to follow and any woman will jump on their wang.

    Let's not get carried away. There are different camps and what not inside of the community. Some are more chauvinistic than others.

    Do any of them regard women as human beings on the same level as men, whose right to choose is both respected and desired?

    Yes.

    they're very much an exception though, and more importantly they're still charging for stuff you can learn for free

    tmsig.jpg
  • DasUberEdwardDasUberEdward Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    poshniallo wrote: »
    poshniallo wrote: »
    Duffel wrote: »
    Rent wrote: »
    So, putting all the sexist misogynistic bullshit aside, if PUAs teach dudes to ignore their faults and have enough self-confidence to truly believe that they're hot shit and they have a right to a loving relationship, I'd say they are an objectively good thing
    That's not what they teach.

    Instead they teach that all women are "bitches" (literally, this is terminology here) and that men are entitled to have sex with them and there are a few simple rules to follow and any woman will jump on their wang.

    Let's not get carried away. There are different camps and what not inside of the community. Some are more chauvinistic than others.

    Do any of them regard women as human beings on the same level as men, whose right to choose is both respected and desired?

    Yes.

    That's great (no sarcasm intended at all) but I'm surprised people who thought that would have anything to do with people who describe themselves as Pick Up Artists.

    I won't get into it but PUA is a newer label that gained popularity. The whole thing started off under lots of different names.

    steam_sig.png
  • DuffelDuffel Registered User
    edited August 2009
    Just going to quote this.

    While not every story is a story about promoting confidence, social skills, and improved well being they do exist.
    I will admit that I have never read PUA literature, but even the supposedly "good" aspects I've heard about of these things involve inherently misogynistic sentiments like, "Leave her better than you found her", which implies that women somehow a) need to be improved by outside forces and b) that it's up to the reader to determine when, where and how without the woman's choosing to do so.

  • SpindizzySpindizzy Registered User
    edited August 2009
    I'm not arguing that men have a harder time socially overall - thats just as hard for everyone. However, I do think that the fact men often are expected to do the chasing and this chase can be uncomfortable can put people off completely.

    Essentially I'd say that if I was to be out socially like everyone else but not approach women i'd stay single. While if I was a women and went out the same amount I'd at least have people come talk to me. Maybe i'm simplifying it to much. Again i'd like to stress this is regarding meeting people and in relation to my social setting. If its different where you live maybe I need to move...

  • MorninglordMorninglord Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    There are no significant enough differences in personality or intelligence between men and women to make a claim that anybody has it easier.

    If you make that claim you are in fantasy land.

    My Dark Souls 2 Diary
    (PSN: Morninglord) (Steam: Morninglord) I like to record and toss up a lot of random gaming videos here.
  • DasUberEdwardDasUberEdward Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    The Cat wrote: »
    poshniallo wrote: »
    Duffel wrote: »
    Rent wrote: »
    So, putting all the sexist misogynistic bullshit aside, if PUAs teach dudes to ignore their faults and have enough self-confidence to truly believe that they're hot shit and they have a right to a loving relationship, I'd say they are an objectively good thing
    That's not what they teach.

    Instead they teach that all women are "bitches" (literally, this is terminology here) and that men are entitled to have sex with them and there are a few simple rules to follow and any woman will jump on their wang.

    Let's not get carried away. There are different camps and what not inside of the community. Some are more chauvinistic than others.

    Do any of them regard women as human beings on the same level as men, whose right to choose is both respected and desired?

    Yes.

    they're very much an exception though, and more importantly they're still charging for stuff you can learn for free

    I think charging for stuff that's free has been the name of the game for years.

    steam_sig.png
  • DasUberEdwardDasUberEdward Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    There are no significant enough differences in personality or intelligence between men and women to make a claim that anybody has it easier.

    If you make that claim you are in fantasy land.


    Seriously. You guys need to stop that shit this instant.

    steam_sig.png
  • nexuscrawlernexuscrawler Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    Rent wrote: »
    Rent wrote: »
    Honestly as a socially inept male with extraordinarily low self-esteem/cyclical depression (which I'm getting treatment for) I can really sympathize with this story
    I think a lot of "us" (socially inept males) have the belief, mistaken or not, that they're worthless at a majority of the things we do, and thus don't deserve any significant relationship with the other sex. Even though objectively I'm probably a "catch" (I'm hard-working, honest, polite, friendly, able to converse fairly well) my hang-ups (I'm clumsy, extremely forgetful, I say the wrong things unintentionally/ get tongue-tied easily, I'm awkward around people when I first meet them) put me in the position where I believe I'm a worthless persona and therefore a worthless boyfriend who doesn't deserve happiness

    So, putting all the sexist misogynistic bullshit aside, if PUAs teach dudes to ignore their faults and have enough self-confidence to truly believe that they're hot shit and they have a right to a loving relationship, I'd say they are an objectively good thing

    But I dunno

    You don't have a right to anything. Pretending banging chicks is your inalienable "right" basically denies women the right to chose to say no. you can visibly see guys who take this approach get angry when they are rejected because they feel they're owed sex for doing the right things.

    Also PUA philosophy have NOTHING TO DO WITH CONFIDENCE. It has everything to do with putting up false fronts and appearances. To someone with low self-esteem you're basically telling them "you're the guy girls don't want here pretend to be someone else and you'll get women".

    Right
    Because I said that "banging chicks is an inalienable right"
    Or implied it
    Or something
    Instead of you strawmanning my arguement that "good guys with no self-confidence deserve to have a loving relationship instead of torturing themselves with the pretense that they're worthless human beings"
    I mean seriously what the fuck?

    OK why does someone deserve a relationship? Why does the world owe people things all the sudden?

  • The CatThe Cat Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited August 2009
    poshniallo wrote: »
    That's great (no sarcasm intended at all) but I'm surprised people who thought that would have anything to do with people who describe themselves as Pick Up Artists.
    This was always the wall Ege ran into. He'd insist on using the term to describe himself and link to all these screaming douchebags, then spend twenty pages slowly backing away from all the common beliefs associated with the subculture. In the end, he was a dude who believed in presenting oneself well in order to score, and that shouldn't have been nearly as controversial as he made it.

    tmsig.jpg
  • poshnialloposhniallo Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    There are no significant enough differences in personality or intelligence between men and women to make a claim that anybody has it easier.

    If you make that claim you are in fantasy land.

    I don't think anyone has it easier (in this particular area anyway), but they do have it different.

    And before you leap in, try not to forget that society exists.

    I figure I could take a bear.
  • RentRent I'm always right Fuckin' deal with itRegistered User regular
    edited August 2009
    The Cat wrote: »
    Rent wrote: »
    The Cat wrote: »
    meeting people is often incredibly difficult for people, actually. y'all don't get to single yourselves out as special over this.

    I would argue that females have a significantly easier time approaching males for the purposes of a relationship than males
    and you would be absolutely wrong

    also, why should this scariness be confined to sexual relationships? Are they the only ones worth talking about?
    Yeah, I doubt that, considering the "online dating" thread(s) we have here and how women post something along the lines of "All I had to do was put my picture up and I already had 12 responses!"

    And I'm not even talking about sexual relationships
    Like, at all
    I honestly don't care about one-night stands, nor bagging women, nor any of that stupid sexist bullshit (and considering that I'm in the military, in which the women are generally...to put it kindly...loose, it's not from lack of options); I care about and actual deep, meaningful relationship founded on mutual trust and respect. Sex is just a bonus

  • geckahngeckahn Registered User
    edited August 2009
    The PUA subculture is fucked up because it doesn't actually help anyone. It just gives lost boys a pre-fabricated bag of tricks to try to get laid, instead of telling them to actually get good at something of importance and improve their self confidence first.

    The Game is an awesome book, and pretty much the most honest takedown of the PUA culture that I know of.

  • electricitylikesmeelectricitylikesme Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    There are no significant enough differences in personality or intelligence between men and women to make a claim that anybody has it easier.

    If you make that claim you are in fantasy land.


    Seriously. You guys need to stop that shit this instant.

    The mistake men make is looking at it from the perspective that if whichever women they find utterly desireable were to make a move on them, they'd go for it. It seems easy if you presuppose the conclusion.

    Dis' wrote: »
    Cancer is when cells stop letting the body mooch off their hard work - clearly a community of like-minded cells should isolate themselves and do the best job each can do, even if the rest of the body collapses!
  • ImprovoloneImprovolone Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    The Cat wrote: »
    Rent wrote: »
    The Cat wrote: »
    meeting people is often incredibly difficult for people, actually. y'all don't get to single yourselves out as special over this.

    I would argue that females have a significantly easier time approaching males for the purposes of a relationship than males
    and you would be absolutely wrong

    also, why should this scariness be confined to sexual relationships? Are they the only ones worth talking about?

    agh. I'm not trying to minimise how some of you clearly feel, but you have to realise that you're not any more or less hard done by than any other person in a similar position of social isolation.

    You might be surprised at how many men think of their female friends sexually. This isn't to say we all want to bang our friends and are only interested in being friends with people we'd bang, but based on the number of guys I've talked to about this, it is absolutely something that we've thought about. Therefor, nearly every relationship outside of purely professional and family is colored to some degree by sexuality.

    Voice actor for hire. My time is free if your project is!
  • RentRent I'm always right Fuckin' deal with itRegistered User regular
    edited August 2009
    There are no significant enough differences in personality or intelligence between men and women to make a claim that anybody has it easier.

    If you make that claim you are in fantasy land.

    I'm not talking about personality nor intelligence
    Cultural expectation, however, places the onus on men to usually do most of the heavy lifting to initiate a relationship

  • MorninglordMorninglord Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    poshniallo wrote: »
    There are no significant enough differences in personality or intelligence between men and women to make a claim that anybody has it easier.

    If you make that claim you are in fantasy land.

    I don't think anyone has it easier (in this particular area anyway), but they do have it different.

    And before you leap in, try not to forget that society exists.

    Which one.

    My Dark Souls 2 Diary
    (PSN: Morninglord) (Steam: Morninglord) I like to record and toss up a lot of random gaming videos here.
  • Jealous DevaJealous Deva Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    There are no significant enough differences in personality or intelligence between men and women to make a claim that anybody has it easier.

    If you make that claim you are in fantasy land.

    There are some pretty significant cultural differences. Not that anyone has it easier but often the challenges faced are often different in nature.

  • The CatThe Cat Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited August 2009
    Rent wrote: »
    The Cat wrote: »
    Rent wrote: »
    The Cat wrote: »
    meeting people is often incredibly difficult for people, actually. y'all don't get to single yourselves out as special over this.

    I would argue that females have a significantly easier time approaching males for the purposes of a relationship than males
    and you would be absolutely wrong

    also, why should this scariness be confined to sexual relationships? Are they the only ones worth talking about?
    Yeah, I doubt that, considering the "online dating" thread(s) we have here and how women post something along the lines of "All I had to do was put my picture up and I already had 12 responses!"
    You're missing the part where 8 of them are from dudes 30 years older than you, 2 are messages from obese shut-ins commenting critically on your profile picture, one appears to live in a swamp in alabama with his pet gator, and the other is trying to sell you genuine rolexes for ten dollars ;)

    life is hard for everyone.

    tmsig.jpg
  • DasUberEdwardDasUberEdward Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    geckahn wrote: »
    The PUA subculture is fucked up because it doesn't actually help anyone. It just gives lost boys a pre-fabricated bag of tricks to try to get laid, instead of telling them to actually get good at something of importance and improve their self confidence first.

    The Game is an awesome book, and pretty much the most honest takedown of the PUA culture that I know of.

    Eh it helps some people.

    But from what I understand those people also generally get into for a reason other than having as much sex as possible in the shortest amount of time.

    You read the book and all but yeah it is a pretty decent depiction of the whole scene. Thankfully it doesn't glamorize things too much and it reveals just how fucked up a lot of those dudes are.

    Especially Mystery. Sad sad mystery.

    steam_sig.png
  • RentRent I'm always right Fuckin' deal with itRegistered User regular
    edited August 2009
    OK why does someone deserve a relationship? Why does the world owe people things all the sudden?
    The world doesn't owe people shit
    However men with low-to-no self esteem believe the exact opposite- they don't deserve any relationship of any type with the opposite sex, which is just as irrational

  • The CatThe Cat Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited August 2009
    The Cat wrote: »
    Rent wrote: »
    The Cat wrote: »
    meeting people is often incredibly difficult for people, actually. y'all don't get to single yourselves out as special over this.

    I would argue that females have a significantly easier time approaching males for the purposes of a relationship than males
    and you would be absolutely wrong

    also, why should this scariness be confined to sexual relationships? Are they the only ones worth talking about?

    agh. I'm not trying to minimise how some of you clearly feel, but you have to realise that you're not any more or less hard done by than any other person in a similar position of social isolation.

    You might be surprised at how many men think of their female friends sexually. This isn't to say we all want to bang our friends and are only interested in being friends with people we'd bang, but based on the number of guys I've talked to about this, it is absolutely something that we've thought about. Therefor, nearly every relationship outside of purely professional and family is colored to some degree by sexuality.

    You think women aren't the same? You're so charmingly naive :D come here and let me ruffle your hair*!

    *while subtly checking out your ass. Seriously, dude, "you might be surprised"? Could you be any more condescending?

    tmsig.jpg
  • electricitylikesmeelectricitylikesme Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    You might be surprised at how many men think of their female friends sexually. This isn't to say we all want to bang our friends and are only interested in being friends with people we'd bang, but based on the number of guys I've talked to about this, it is absolutely something that we've thought about. Therefor, nearly every relationship outside of purely professional and family is colored to some degree by sexuality.
    I think this applies to relationships with people of the same gender as well, regardless of sexuality however. Maybe less overtly, but I mean, I have definitely rated male friends in terms of attractiveness in my head. I mean, people tend to wonder about what people are like sexually.

    Dis' wrote: »
    Cancer is when cells stop letting the body mooch off their hard work - clearly a community of like-minded cells should isolate themselves and do the best job each can do, even if the rest of the body collapses!
  • The CatThe Cat Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited August 2009
    You might be surprised at how many men think of their female friends sexually. This isn't to say we all want to bang our friends and are only interested in being friends with people we'd bang, but based on the number of guys I've talked to about this, it is absolutely something that we've thought about. Therefor, nearly every relationship outside of purely professional and family is colored to some degree by sexuality.
    I think this applies to relationships with people of the same gender as well, regardless of sexuality however. Maybe less overtly, but I mean, I have definitely rated male friends in terms of attractiveness in my head. I mean, people tend to wonder about what people are like sexually.
    Now now, the prospect that women might have sexual thoughts too is clearly news to the poor guy. You don't want to freak him out completely!

    tmsig.jpg
  • MorninglordMorninglord Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    There are no significant enough differences in personality or intelligence between men and women to make a claim that anybody has it easier.

    If you make that claim you are in fantasy land.

    There are some pretty significant cultural differences. Not that anyone has it easier but often the challenges faced are often different in nature.

    that doesn't mean they are easier, that the anxiety is magically lesser or the stress reduced.

    At all.

    How the fuck would you like it if you had to wait all the fucking time when you liked someone.
    I think I'd find it intolerable.

    Don't go off on a defensive "But but its different" tangent. Sure it's different. This doesn't make women be less nervous or have it any easier, which is what was originally said.

    There's no room for woe is mens in these differences. It's woe is everyone, equally.

    My Dark Souls 2 Diary
    (PSN: Morninglord) (Steam: Morninglord) I like to record and toss up a lot of random gaming videos here.
  • ImprovoloneImprovolone Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    The Cat wrote: »
    Rent wrote: »
    The Cat wrote: »
    Rent wrote: »
    The Cat wrote: »
    meeting people is often incredibly difficult for people, actually. y'all don't get to single yourselves out as special over this.

    I would argue that females have a significantly easier time approaching males for the purposes of a relationship than males
    and you would be absolutely wrong

    also, why should this scariness be confined to sexual relationships? Are they the only ones worth talking about?
    Yeah, I doubt that, considering the "online dating" thread(s) we have here and how women post something along the lines of "All I had to do was put my picture up and I already had 12 responses!"
    You're missing the part where 8 of them are from dudes 30 years older than you, 2 are messages from obese shut-ins commenting critically on your profile picture, one appears to live in a swamp in alabama with his pet gator, and the other is trying to sell you genuine rolexes for ten dollars ;)

    life is hard for everyone.

    This is absofuckinglutely a grass is greener scenario. There are a ton of weird creepy people out there, even more so on-line. I've read messages my female friends get on OKC, it's ridiculous.
    Whats also ridiculous is sending messages to dozens of women to see if you connect over something you liked in their profile (for conversation, not fucking), and to get no responses.
    Hell, most men I know will even respond to messages from the women they have zero interest just because they know what its like to be constantly ignored.

    Voice actor for hire. My time is free if your project is!
  • DuffelDuffel Registered User
    edited August 2009
    Rent wrote: »
    The world doesn't owe people shit
    However men with low-to-no self esteem believe the exact opposite- they don't deserve any relationship of any type with the opposite sex, which is just as irrational
    The problem with assuming that someone "deserves" a relationship is that it puts the responsibility to be in that relationship on someone else.

    Who else? Well, who knows. But assuming that such a relationship is deserved tends to make people very frustrated and angry when nobody they meet wants to be in this relationship - which in turn makes the frustrated individual even more angry, etc. At which point they're usually fair game for the PUA sleazebags to make some money off of who tell them how to claim what they supposedly deserve.

    A much healthier way to look at it is for someone to make oneself into the sort of person others would want to be in a relationship with.

  • DasUberEdwardDasUberEdward Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    The Cat wrote: »
    Rent wrote: »
    The Cat wrote: »
    Rent wrote: »
    The Cat wrote: »
    meeting people is often incredibly difficult for people, actually. y'all don't get to single yourselves out as special over this.

    I would argue that females have a significantly easier time approaching males for the purposes of a relationship than males
    and you would be absolutely wrong

    also, why should this scariness be confined to sexual relationships? Are they the only ones worth talking about?
    Yeah, I doubt that, considering the "online dating" thread(s) we have here and how women post something along the lines of "All I had to do was put my picture up and I already had 12 responses!"
    You're missing the part where 8 of them are from dudes 30 years older than you, 2 are messages from obese shut-ins commenting critically on your profile picture, one appears to live in a swamp in alabama with his pet gator, and the other is trying to sell you genuine rolexes for ten dollars ;)

    life is hard for everyone.

    This is absofuckinglutely a grass is greener scenario. There are a ton of weird creepy people out there, even more so on-line. I've read messages my female friends get on OKC, it's ridiculous.
    Whats also ridiculous is sending messages to dozens of women to see if you connect over something you liked in their profile (for conversation, not fucking), and to get no responses.
    Hell, most men I know will even respond to messages from the women they have zero interest just because they know what its like to be constantly ignored.

    Stop it.

    Just because you can't relate doesn't mean that difficulties don't exist. My goodness don't be so self absorbed.

    steam_sig.png
  • RentRent I'm always right Fuckin' deal with itRegistered User regular
    edited August 2009
    The Cat wrote: »
    Rent wrote: »
    The Cat wrote: »
    Rent wrote: »
    The Cat wrote: »
    meeting people is often incredibly difficult for people, actually. y'all don't get to single yourselves out as special over this.

    I would argue that females have a significantly easier time approaching males for the purposes of a relationship than males
    and you would be absolutely wrong

    also, why should this scariness be confined to sexual relationships? Are they the only ones worth talking about?
    Yeah, I doubt that, considering the "online dating" thread(s) we have here and how women post something along the lines of "All I had to do was put my picture up and I already had 6 responses!"
    You're missing the part where 3 of them are from BBWs 30 years and 50 pds bigger than you, 1 is a message from an/b] obese shut-in commenting critically on your profile picture, one appears to live in a swamp in alabama with her two kids, and the other is trying to sell you "male enhancement" pills for ten dollars ;)

    life is hard for everyone.
    Reflected on males, but my general point is this- no matter how true the statement is (which it most certainly is, Cat) the problem with that is is that women get messaged a whole lot more than men do, so even if the ratio of crap-to-actually good is the same (which I would argue it is), women have a lot more leniency of choice than men
    And besides that even in the technological future there's still the expectation that men should generally initiate contact- which is maddening

    Of course, none of this is an excuse for males with low self-esteem to not even put themselves out there, but to argue that the experience isn't easier for females as opposed to males is, in my opinion, naive

  • ImprovoloneImprovolone Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    The Cat wrote: »
    The Cat wrote: »
    Rent wrote: »
    The Cat wrote: »
    meeting people is often incredibly difficult for people, actually. y'all don't get to single yourselves out as special over this.

    I would argue that females have a significantly easier time approaching males for the purposes of a relationship than males
    and you would be absolutely wrong

    also, why should this scariness be confined to sexual relationships? Are they the only ones worth talking about?

    agh. I'm not trying to minimise how some of you clearly feel, but you have to realise that you're not any more or less hard done by than any other person in a similar position of social isolation.

    You might be surprised at how many men think of their female friends sexually. This isn't to say we all want to bang our friends and are only interested in being friends with people we'd bang, but based on the number of guys I've talked to about this, it is absolutely something that we've thought about. Therefor, nearly every relationship outside of purely professional and family is colored to some degree by sexuality.

    You think women aren't the same? You're so charmingly naive :D come here and let me ruffle your hair*!

    *while subtly checking out your ass. Seriously, dude, "you might be surprised"? Could you be any more condescending?

    Yes. I think women hate sex. I'm glad my point was made...
    /sarcasm
    I said "you might be surprised" based on the number of women I've had this conversation with who were very surprised to not only hear this, but to have it confirmed by the other men in the room. I have not done a professional amount of research, no.
    So if you feel the same way, then maybe I misunderstood your comment about sexual relationships (since you seem to be agreeing that all relationships are colored by sex).

    Voice actor for hire. My time is free if your project is!
  • DasUberEdwardDasUberEdward Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    Oh and as for the making money thing. Tons of the material is free but it's the "super secret fail proof final kaioken technique" that some of them try to make money off of. Then there's the seminars. . .which. Ew.

    steam_sig.png
  • DasUberEdwardDasUberEdward Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    Rent wrote: »
    The Cat wrote: »
    Rent wrote: »
    The Cat wrote: »
    Rent wrote: »
    The Cat wrote: »
    meeting people is often incredibly difficult for people, actually. y'all don't get to single yourselves out as special over this.

    I would argue that females have a significantly easier time approaching males for the purposes of a relationship than males
    and you would be absolutely wrong

    also, why should this scariness be confined to sexual relationships? Are they the only ones worth talking about?
    Yeah, I doubt that, considering the "online dating" thread(s) we have here and how women post something along the lines of "All I had to do was put my picture up and I already had 6 responses!"
    You're missing the part where 3 of them are from BBWs 30 years and 50 pds bigger than you, 1 is a message from an/b] obese shut-in commenting critically on your profile picture, one appears to live in a swamp in alabama with her two kids, and the other is trying to sell you "male enhancement" pills for ten dollars ;)

    life is hard for everyone.
    Reflected on males, but my general point is this- no matter how true the statement is (which it most certainly is, Cat) the problem with that is is that women get messaged a whole lot more than men do, so even if the ratio of crap-to-actually good is the same (which I would argue it is), women have a lot more leniency of choice than men
    And besides that even in the technological future there's still the expectation that men should generally initiate contact- which is maddening

    Of course, none of this is an excuse for males with low self-esteem to not even put themselves out there, but to argue that the experience isn't easier for females as opposed to males is, in my opinion, naive

    So because you would like more messages you make the assumption that having more messages must be preferable for all people?

    This is what you are doing. You should stop.

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  • ImprovoloneImprovolone Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    The Cat wrote: »
    Rent wrote: »
    The Cat wrote: »
    Rent wrote: »
    The Cat wrote: »
    meeting people is often incredibly difficult for people, actually. y'all don't get to single yourselves out as special over this.

    I would argue that females have a significantly easier time approaching males for the purposes of a relationship than males
    and you would be absolutely wrong

    also, why should this scariness be confined to sexual relationships? Are they the only ones worth talking about?
    Yeah, I doubt that, considering the "online dating" thread(s) we have here and how women post something along the lines of "All I had to do was put my picture up and I already had 12 responses!"
    You're missing the part where 8 of them are from dudes 30 years older than you, 2 are messages from obese shut-ins commenting critically on your profile picture, one appears to live in a swamp in alabama with his pet gator, and the other is trying to sell you genuine rolexes for ten dollars ;)

    life is hard for everyone.

    This is absofuckinglutely a grass is greener scenario. There are a ton of weird creepy people out there, even more so on-line. I've read messages my female friends get on OKC, it's ridiculous.
    Whats also ridiculous is sending messages to dozens of women to see if you connect over something you liked in their profile (for conversation, not fucking), and to get no responses.
    Hell, most men I know will even respond to messages from the women they have zero interest just because they know what its like to be constantly ignored.

    Stop it.

    Just because you can't relate doesn't mean that difficulties don't exist. My goodness don't be so self absorbed.

    I thought "grass is greener" implies that while it looks better to be on the other side, it's probably just as difficult but you have no way of knowing. As far as I know, I'm agreeing with you.

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  • SpindizzySpindizzy Registered User
    edited August 2009
    There are no significant enough differences in personality or intelligence between men and women to make a claim that anybody has it easier.

    If you make that claim you are in fantasy land.

    The point is though its not about who's perception of the situation is harder, thats harder to determine or probably impossible. What we're trying to say is that the approaching of women for men can be a huge stumbling block.

    Were talking about the pressures of socially standard roles in making relationships (sexual or otherwise). As someone mentioned before maybe trying to see how guys and gals approach the situation would be useful.

    With potential to open up myself to ridicule heres how a situation would be in my head if I was to walk into a bar with some friends and try to get talking to a women:

    [in my head] Ok my friends are sat over there enjoying themselves I'll grab a drink. Oh look theres a nice looking lady I'd love to chat to her. Oh crap she's with friends. Who's that better looking guy than me over there next to them. Nobody likes some weirdo to ruin your night, i'll try and talk to her while she's alone. Crap that means i'm stalking her! Do I look ok, I knew I should have shaved. I can't leave my mates in the lurch like this. Maybe a drink would help.

    a few drinks later...

    ok she's alone maybe it would be cool to speak to her. Ok what do I say? What happens if she just brushes me aside, thats going to be shit, why the hell would I put myself through that? What happens If I make a tit of myself or she thinks I'm boring. I'll try extra hard. But what happens if I scare her away, how cool is cool blah blah...

    [end]

    ad infinatum not a perfect example but these situations can be like that especially if you've just come out of a rough relationship or there are alot of people there. I'm sometimes amazed that people ever get with other people.

    I'd really love to know how it is for you girls?

    Also Morninglord I felt you think were saying this is fact. What were saying isn't claiming to be anything other than how men of a nervous disposition may view things.

  • MorninglordMorninglord Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    Man, you think it's hard talking ot them now, imagine how hard it is when doing so is actively frowned on but you really really want to.

    Easier my ass.

    No, I'm getting angry, because women aren't mysterious at all. They think the exact same way you do, have the same emotions, the same nervousness. And there's this huge shortsightedness about the whole conversation I find absolutely repellent. There's this underlying assumption that they aren't aware of the cultural expectations put on them and are just snugly sitting at home or on their profile happily waiting for replies.

    It's disgusting.

    My Dark Souls 2 Diary
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  • The CatThe Cat Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited August 2009
    Yes. I think women hate sex. I'm glad my point was made...
    /sarcasm
    Sure, that's what I meant! You still haven't explained why you felt the need to bring up this tangent in the first place, by the way. Dudes have libidos, so... profit?
    I said "you might be surprised" based on the number of women I've had this conversation with who were very surprised to not only hear this, but to have it confirmed by the other men in the room. I have not done a professional amount of research, no.
    So if you feel the same way, then maybe I misunderstood your comment about sexual relationships (since you seem to be agreeing that all relationships are colored by sex).
    Yeah I think we can safely establish by this point that you don't hang out with what could be called a representative subset of the female population on a regular basis ;)

    That's not an indictment, just be aware that anecdotes aren't data.

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  • nexuscrawlernexuscrawler Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    The Cat wrote: »
    Yes. I think women hate sex. I'm glad my point was made...
    /sarcasm
    Sure, that's what I meant! You still haven't explained why you felt the need to bring up this tangent in the first place, by the way. Dudes have libidos, so... profit?
    I said "you might be surprised" based on the number of women I've had this conversation with who were very surprised to not only hear this, but to have it confirmed by the other men in the room. I have not done a professional amount of research, no.
    So if you feel the same way, then maybe I misunderstood your comment about sexual relationships (since you seem to be agreeing that all relationships are colored by sex).
    Yeah I think we can safely establish by this point that you don't hang out with what could be called a representative subset of the female population on a regular basis ;)

    That's not an indictment, just be aware that anecdotes aren't data.

    Are you coming on to me?

  • The CatThe Cat Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited August 2009
    Spindizzy wrote: »
    I'd really love to know how it is for you girls?
    Roughly the same, with the added bonuses of trying to stay upright in heels while keeping one's drink free of roofies

    really, how many times do we have to reiterate that the meat market that is your average nightclub is hell on earth for anyone with a shred of introspective personality?

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  • ImprovoloneImprovolone Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    Man, you think it's hard talking ot them now, imagine how hard it is when doing so is actively frowned on but you really really want to.

    Easier my ass.

    I would be shocked for a woman to come up to me to strike up a conversation (not because I don't think I'm worth talking to), but because of how unexpected it is.
    That would be fucking great.
    I had no idea this was frowned upon. Why do you think that is?

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  • RentRent I'm always right Fuckin' deal with itRegistered User regular
    edited August 2009
    Duffel wrote: »
    Rent wrote: »
    The world doesn't owe people shit
    However men with low-to-no self esteem believe the exact opposite- they don't deserve any relationship of any type with the opposite sex, which is just as irrational
    The problem with assuming that someone "deserves" a relationship is that it puts the responsibility to be in that relationship on someone else.

    Who else? Well, who knows. But assuming that such a relationship is deserved tends to make people very frustrated and angry when nobody they meet wants to be in this relationship - which in turn makes the frustrated individual even more angry, etc. At which point they're usually fair game for the PUA sleazebags to make some money off of who tell them how to claim what they supposedly deserve.

    A much healthier way to look at it is for someone to make oneself into the sort of person others would want to be in a relationship with.

    But my point is is that they already are a desirable person, however their self-image is so skewed that they can't see it
    So they need to bullshit themselves with false confidence until they start to believe their own hype

    Example (spoilered for personal)
    Spoiler:

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