I'm not arguing that men have a harder time socially overall - thats just as hard for everyone. However, I do think that the fact men often are expected to do the chasing and this chase can be uncomfortable can put people off completely.
Essentially I'd say that if I was to be out socially like everyone else but not approach women i'd stay single. While if I was a women and went out the same amount I'd at least have people come talk to me. Maybe i'm simplifying it to much. Again i'd like to stress this is regarding meeting people and in relation to my social setting. If its different where you live maybe I need to move...
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MorninglordI'm tired of being Batman,so today I'll be Owl.Registered Userregular
edited August 2009
There are no significant enough differences in personality or intelligence between men and women to make a claim that anybody has it easier.
If you make that claim you are in fantasy land.
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So, putting all the sexist misogynistic bullshit aside, if PUAs teach dudes to ignore their faults and have enough self-confidence to truly believe that they're hot shit and they have a right to a loving relationship, I'd say they are an objectively good thing
That's not what they teach.
Instead they teach that all women are "bitches" (literally, this is terminology here) and that men are entitled to have sex with them and there are a few simple rules to follow and any woman will jump on their wang.
Let's not get carried away. There are different camps and what not inside of the community. Some are more chauvinistic than others.
Do any of them regard women as human beings on the same level as men, whose right to choose is both respected and desired?
Yes.
they're very much an exception though, and more importantly they're still charging for stuff you can learn for free
I think charging for stuff that's free has been the name of the game for years.
Honestly as a socially inept male with extraordinarily low self-esteem/cyclical depression (which I'm getting treatment for) I can really sympathize with this story
I think a lot of "us" (socially inept males) have the belief, mistaken or not, that they're worthless at a majority of the things we do, and thus don't deserve any significant relationship with the other sex. Even though objectively I'm probably a "catch" (I'm hard-working, honest, polite, friendly, able to converse fairly well) my hang-ups (I'm clumsy, extremely forgetful, I say the wrong things unintentionally/ get tongue-tied easily, I'm awkward around people when I first meet them) put me in the position where I believe I'm a worthless persona and therefore a worthless boyfriend who doesn't deserve happiness
So, putting all the sexist misogynistic bullshit aside, if PUAs teach dudes to ignore their faults and have enough self-confidence to truly believe that they're hot shit and they have a right to a loving relationship, I'd say they are an objectively good thing
But I dunno
You don't have a right to anything. Pretending banging chicks is your inalienable "right" basically denies women the right to chose to say no. you can visibly see guys who take this approach get angry when they are rejected because they feel they're owed sex for doing the right things.
Also PUA philosophy have NOTHING TO DO WITH CONFIDENCE. It has everything to do with putting up false fronts and appearances. To someone with low self-esteem you're basically telling them "you're the guy girls don't want here pretend to be someone else and you'll get women".
Right
Because I said that "banging chicks is an inalienable right"
Or implied it
Or something
Instead of you strawmanning my arguement that "good guys with no self-confidence deserve to have a loving relationship instead of torturing themselves with the pretense that they're worthless human beings"
I mean seriously what the fuck?
OK why does someone deserve a relationship? Why does the world owe people things all the sudden?
That's great (no sarcasm intended at all) but I'm surprised people who thought that would have anything to do with people who describe themselves as Pick Up Artists.
This was always the wall Ege ran into. He'd insist on using the term to describe himself and link to all these screaming douchebags, then spend twenty pages slowly backing away from all the common beliefs associated with the subculture. In the end, he was a dude who believed in presenting oneself well in order to score, and that shouldn't have been nearly as controversial as he made it.
meeting people is often incredibly difficult for people, actually. y'all don't get to single yourselves out as special over this.
I would argue that females have a significantly easier time approaching males for the purposes of a relationship than males
and you would be absolutely wrong
also, why should this scariness be confined to sexual relationships? Are they the only ones worth talking about?
Yeah, I doubt that, considering the "online dating" thread(s) we have here and how women post something along the lines of "All I had to do was put my picture up and I already had 12 responses!"
And I'm not even talking about sexual relationships
Like, at all
I honestly don't care about one-night stands, nor bagging women, nor any of that stupid sexist bullshit (and considering that I'm in the military, in which the women are generally...to put it kindly...loose, it's not from lack of options); I care about and actual deep, meaningful relationship founded on mutual trust and respect. Sex is just a bonus
The PUA subculture is fucked up because it doesn't actually help anyone. It just gives lost boys a pre-fabricated bag of tricks to try to get laid, instead of telling them to actually get good at something of importance and improve their self confidence first.
The Game is an awesome book, and pretty much the most honest takedown of the PUA culture that I know of.
There are no significant enough differences in personality or intelligence between men and women to make a claim that anybody has it easier.
If you make that claim you are in fantasy land.
Seriously. You guys need to stop that shit this instant.
The mistake men make is looking at it from the perspective that if whichever women they find utterly desireable were to make a move on them, they'd go for it. It seems easy if you presuppose the conclusion.
meeting people is often incredibly difficult for people, actually. y'all don't get to single yourselves out as special over this.
I would argue that females have a significantly easier time approaching males for the purposes of a relationship than males
and you would be absolutely wrong
also, why should this scariness be confined to sexual relationships? Are they the only ones worth talking about?
agh. I'm not trying to minimise how some of you clearly feel, but you have to realise that you're not any more or less hard done by than any other person in a similar position of social isolation.
You might be surprised at how many men think of their female friends sexually. This isn't to say we all want to bang our friends and are only interested in being friends with people we'd bang, but based on the number of guys I've talked to about this, it is absolutely something that we've thought about. Therefor, nearly every relationship outside of purely professional and family is colored to some degree by sexuality.
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RentI'm always rightFuckin' deal with itRegistered Userregular
There are no significant enough differences in personality or intelligence between men and women to make a claim that anybody has it easier.
If you make that claim you are in fantasy land.
I'm not talking about personality nor intelligence
Cultural expectation, however, places the onus on men to usually do most of the heavy lifting to initiate a relationship
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MorninglordI'm tired of being Batman,so today I'll be Owl.Registered Userregular
meeting people is often incredibly difficult for people, actually. y'all don't get to single yourselves out as special over this.
I would argue that females have a significantly easier time approaching males for the purposes of a relationship than males
and you would be absolutely wrong
also, why should this scariness be confined to sexual relationships? Are they the only ones worth talking about?
Yeah, I doubt that, considering the "online dating" thread(s) we have here and how women post something along the lines of "All I had to do was put my picture up and I already had 12 responses!"
You're missing the part where 8 of them are from dudes 30 years older than you, 2 are messages from obese shut-ins commenting critically on your profile picture, one appears to live in a swamp in alabama with his pet gator, and the other is trying to sell you genuine rolexes for ten dollars
The PUA subculture is fucked up because it doesn't actually help anyone. It just gives lost boys a pre-fabricated bag of tricks to try to get laid, instead of telling them to actually get good at something of importance and improve their self confidence first.
The Game is an awesome book, and pretty much the most honest takedown of the PUA culture that I know of.
Eh it helps some people.
But from what I understand those people also generally get into for a reason other than having as much sex as possible in the shortest amount of time.
You read the book and all but yeah it is a pretty decent depiction of the whole scene. Thankfully it doesn't glamorize things too much and it reveals just how fucked up a lot of those dudes are.
Especially Mystery. Sad sad mystery.
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RentI'm always rightFuckin' deal with itRegistered Userregular
OK why does someone deserve a relationship? Why does the world owe people things all the sudden?
The world doesn't owe people shit
However men with low-to-no self esteem believe the exact opposite- they don't deserve any relationship of any type with the opposite sex, which is just as irrational
meeting people is often incredibly difficult for people, actually. y'all don't get to single yourselves out as special over this.
I would argue that females have a significantly easier time approaching males for the purposes of a relationship than males
and you would be absolutely wrong
also, why should this scariness be confined to sexual relationships? Are they the only ones worth talking about?
agh. I'm not trying to minimise how some of you clearly feel, but you have to realise that you're not any more or less hard done by than any other person in a similar position of social isolation.
You might be surprised at how many men think of their female friends sexually. This isn't to say we all want to bang our friends and are only interested in being friends with people we'd bang, but based on the number of guys I've talked to about this, it is absolutely something that we've thought about. Therefor, nearly every relationship outside of purely professional and family is colored to some degree by sexuality.
You think women aren't the same? You're so charmingly naive come here and let me ruffle your hair*!
*while subtly checking out your ass. Seriously, dude, "you might be surprised"? Could you be any more condescending?
You might be surprised at how many men think of their female friends sexually. This isn't to say we all want to bang our friends and are only interested in being friends with people we'd bang, but based on the number of guys I've talked to about this, it is absolutely something that we've thought about. Therefor, nearly every relationship outside of purely professional and family is colored to some degree by sexuality.
I think this applies to relationships with people of the same gender as well, regardless of sexuality however. Maybe less overtly, but I mean, I have definitely rated male friends in terms of attractiveness in my head. I mean, people tend to wonder about what people are like sexually.
You might be surprised at how many men think of their female friends sexually. This isn't to say we all want to bang our friends and are only interested in being friends with people we'd bang, but based on the number of guys I've talked to about this, it is absolutely something that we've thought about. Therefor, nearly every relationship outside of purely professional and family is colored to some degree by sexuality.
I think this applies to relationships with people of the same gender as well, regardless of sexuality however. Maybe less overtly, but I mean, I have definitely rated male friends in terms of attractiveness in my head. I mean, people tend to wonder about what people are like sexually.
Now now, the prospect that women might have sexual thoughts too is clearly news to the poor guy. You don't want to freak him out completely!
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MorninglordI'm tired of being Batman,so today I'll be Owl.Registered Userregular
There are no significant enough differences in personality or intelligence between men and women to make a claim that anybody has it easier.
If you make that claim you are in fantasy land.
There are some pretty significant cultural differences. Not that anyone has it easier but often the challenges faced are often different in nature.
that doesn't mean they are easier, that the anxiety is magically lesser or the stress reduced.
At all.
How the fuck would you like it if you had to wait all the fucking time when you liked someone.
I think I'd find it intolerable.
Don't go off on a defensive "But but its different" tangent. Sure it's different. This doesn't make women be less nervous or have it any easier, which is what was originally said.
There's no room for woe is mens in these differences. It's woe is everyone, equally.
Morninglord on
(PSN: Morninglord) (Steam: Morninglord) (WiiU: Morninglord22) I like to record and toss up a lot of random gaming videos here.
meeting people is often incredibly difficult for people, actually. y'all don't get to single yourselves out as special over this.
I would argue that females have a significantly easier time approaching males for the purposes of a relationship than males
and you would be absolutely wrong
also, why should this scariness be confined to sexual relationships? Are they the only ones worth talking about?
Yeah, I doubt that, considering the "online dating" thread(s) we have here and how women post something along the lines of "All I had to do was put my picture up and I already had 12 responses!"
You're missing the part where 8 of them are from dudes 30 years older than you, 2 are messages from obese shut-ins commenting critically on your profile picture, one appears to live in a swamp in alabama with his pet gator, and the other is trying to sell you genuine rolexes for ten dollars
life is hard for everyone.
This is absofuckinglutely a grass is greener scenario. There are a ton of weird creepy people out there, even more so on-line. I've read messages my female friends get on OKC, it's ridiculous.
Whats also ridiculous is sending messages to dozens of women to see if you connect over something you liked in their profile (for conversation, not fucking), and to get no responses.
Hell, most men I know will even respond to messages from the women they have zero interest just because they know what its like to be constantly ignored.
Improvolone on
Voice actor for hire. My time is free if your project is!
The world doesn't owe people shit
However men with low-to-no self esteem believe the exact opposite- they don't deserve any relationship of any type with the opposite sex, which is just as irrational
The problem with assuming that someone "deserves" a relationship is that it puts the responsibility to be in that relationship on someone else.
Who else? Well, who knows. But assuming that such a relationship is deserved tends to make people very frustrated and angry when nobody they meet wants to be in this relationship - which in turn makes the frustrated individual even more angry, etc. At which point they're usually fair game for the PUA sleazebags to make some money off of who tell them how to claim what they supposedly deserve.
A much healthier way to look at it is for someone to make oneself into the sort of person others would want to be in a relationship with.
meeting people is often incredibly difficult for people, actually. y'all don't get to single yourselves out as special over this.
I would argue that females have a significantly easier time approaching males for the purposes of a relationship than males
and you would be absolutely wrong
also, why should this scariness be confined to sexual relationships? Are they the only ones worth talking about?
Yeah, I doubt that, considering the "online dating" thread(s) we have here and how women post something along the lines of "All I had to do was put my picture up and I already had 12 responses!"
You're missing the part where 8 of them are from dudes 30 years older than you, 2 are messages from obese shut-ins commenting critically on your profile picture, one appears to live in a swamp in alabama with his pet gator, and the other is trying to sell you genuine rolexes for ten dollars
life is hard for everyone.
This is absofuckinglutely a grass is greener scenario. There are a ton of weird creepy people out there, even more so on-line. I've read messages my female friends get on OKC, it's ridiculous.
Whats also ridiculous is sending messages to dozens of women to see if you connect over something you liked in their profile (for conversation, not fucking), and to get no responses.
Hell, most men I know will even respond to messages from the women they have zero interest just because they know what its like to be constantly ignored.
Stop it.
Just because you can't relate doesn't mean that difficulties don't exist. My goodness don't be so self absorbed.
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RentI'm always rightFuckin' deal with itRegistered Userregular
meeting people is often incredibly difficult for people, actually. y'all don't get to single yourselves out as special over this.
I would argue that females have a significantly easier time approaching males for the purposes of a relationship than males
and you would be absolutely wrong
also, why should this scariness be confined to sexual relationships? Are they the only ones worth talking about?
Yeah, I doubt that, considering the "online dating" thread(s) we have here and how women post something along the lines of "All I had to do was put my picture up and I already had 6 responses!"
You're missing the part where 3 of them are from BBWs 30 years and 50 pds bigger than you, 1 is a message from an/b] obese shut-in commenting critically on your profile picture, one appears to live in a swamp in alabama with her two kids, and the other is trying to sell you "male enhancement" pills for ten dollars
life is hard for everyone.
Reflected on males, but my general point is this- no matter how true the statement is (which it most certainly is, Cat) the problem with that is is that women get messaged a whole lot more than men do, so even if the ratio of crap-to-actually good is the same (which I would argue it is), women have a lot more leniency of choice than men
And besides that even in the technological future there's still the expectation that men should generally initiate contact- which is maddening
Of course, none of this is an excuse for males with low self-esteem to not even put themselves out there, but to argue that the experience isn't easier for females as opposed to males is, in my opinion, naive
meeting people is often incredibly difficult for people, actually. y'all don't get to single yourselves out as special over this.
I would argue that females have a significantly easier time approaching males for the purposes of a relationship than males
and you would be absolutely wrong
also, why should this scariness be confined to sexual relationships? Are they the only ones worth talking about?
agh. I'm not trying to minimise how some of you clearly feel, but you have to realise that you're not any more or less hard done by than any other person in a similar position of social isolation.
You might be surprised at how many men think of their female friends sexually. This isn't to say we all want to bang our friends and are only interested in being friends with people we'd bang, but based on the number of guys I've talked to about this, it is absolutely something that we've thought about. Therefor, nearly every relationship outside of purely professional and family is colored to some degree by sexuality.
You think women aren't the same? You're so charmingly naive come here and let me ruffle your hair*!
*while subtly checking out your ass. Seriously, dude, "you might be surprised"? Could you be any more condescending?
Yes. I think women hate sex. I'm glad my point was made...
/sarcasm
I said "you might be surprised" based on the number of women I've had this conversation with who were very surprised to not only hear this, but to have it confirmed by the other men in the room. I have not done a professional amount of research, no.
So if you feel the same way, then maybe I misunderstood your comment about sexual relationships (since you seem to be agreeing that all relationships are colored by sex).
Improvolone on
Voice actor for hire. My time is free if your project is!
Oh and as for the making money thing. Tons of the material is free but it's the "super secret fail proof final kaioken technique" that some of them try to make money off of. Then there's the seminars. . .which. Ew.
meeting people is often incredibly difficult for people, actually. y'all don't get to single yourselves out as special over this.
I would argue that females have a significantly easier time approaching males for the purposes of a relationship than males
and you would be absolutely wrong
also, why should this scariness be confined to sexual relationships? Are they the only ones worth talking about?
Yeah, I doubt that, considering the "online dating" thread(s) we have here and how women post something along the lines of "All I had to do was put my picture up and I already had 6 responses!"
You're missing the part where 3 of them are from BBWs 30 years and 50 pds bigger than you, 1 is a message from an/b] obese shut-in commenting critically on your profile picture, one appears to live in a swamp in alabama with her two kids, and the other is trying to sell you "male enhancement" pills for ten dollars
life is hard for everyone.
Reflected on males, but my general point is this- no matter how true the statement is (which it most certainly is, Cat) the problem with that is is that women get messaged a whole lot more than men do, so even if the ratio of crap-to-actually good is the same (which I would argue it is), women have a lot more leniency of choice than men
And besides that even in the technological future there's still the expectation that men should generally initiate contact- which is maddening
Of course, none of this is an excuse for males with low self-esteem to not even put themselves out there, but to argue that the experience isn't easier for females as opposed to males is, in my opinion, naive
So because you would like more messages you make the assumption that having more messages must be preferable for all people?
meeting people is often incredibly difficult for people, actually. y'all don't get to single yourselves out as special over this.
I would argue that females have a significantly easier time approaching males for the purposes of a relationship than males
and you would be absolutely wrong
also, why should this scariness be confined to sexual relationships? Are they the only ones worth talking about?
Yeah, I doubt that, considering the "online dating" thread(s) we have here and how women post something along the lines of "All I had to do was put my picture up and I already had 12 responses!"
You're missing the part where 8 of them are from dudes 30 years older than you, 2 are messages from obese shut-ins commenting critically on your profile picture, one appears to live in a swamp in alabama with his pet gator, and the other is trying to sell you genuine rolexes for ten dollars
life is hard for everyone.
This is absofuckinglutely a grass is greener scenario. There are a ton of weird creepy people out there, even more so on-line. I've read messages my female friends get on OKC, it's ridiculous.
Whats also ridiculous is sending messages to dozens of women to see if you connect over something you liked in their profile (for conversation, not fucking), and to get no responses.
Hell, most men I know will even respond to messages from the women they have zero interest just because they know what its like to be constantly ignored.
Stop it.
Just because you can't relate doesn't mean that difficulties don't exist. My goodness don't be so self absorbed.
I thought "grass is greener" implies that while it looks better to be on the other side, it's probably just as difficult but you have no way of knowing. As far as I know, I'm agreeing with you.
Improvolone on
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There are no significant enough differences in personality or intelligence between men and women to make a claim that anybody has it easier.
If you make that claim you are in fantasy land.
The point is though its not about who's perception of the situation is harder, thats harder to determine or probably impossible. What we're trying to say is that the approaching of women for men can be a huge stumbling block.
Were talking about the pressures of socially standard roles in making relationships (sexual or otherwise). As someone mentioned before maybe trying to see how guys and gals approach the situation would be useful.
With potential to open up myself to ridicule heres how a situation would be in my head if I was to walk into a bar with some friends and try to get talking to a women:
[in my head] Ok my friends are sat over there enjoying themselves I'll grab a drink. Oh look theres a nice looking lady I'd love to chat to her. Oh crap she's with friends. Who's that better looking guy than me over there next to them. Nobody likes some weirdo to ruin your night, i'll try and talk to her while she's alone. Crap that means i'm stalking her! Do I look ok, I knew I should have shaved. I can't leave my mates in the lurch like this. Maybe a drink would help.
a few drinks later...
ok she's alone maybe it would be cool to speak to her. Ok what do I say? What happens if she just brushes me aside, thats going to be shit, why the hell would I put myself through that? What happens If I make a tit of myself or she thinks I'm boring. I'll try extra hard. But what happens if I scare her away, how cool is cool blah blah...
[end]
ad infinatum not a perfect example but these situations can be like that especially if you've just come out of a rough relationship or there are alot of people there. I'm sometimes amazed that people ever get with other people.
I'd really love to know how it is for you girls?
Also Morninglord I felt you think were saying this is fact. What were saying isn't claiming to be anything other than how men of a nervous disposition may view things.
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MorninglordI'm tired of being Batman,so today I'll be Owl.Registered Userregular
edited August 2009
Man, you think it's hard talking ot them now, imagine how hard it is when doing so is actively frowned on but you really really want to.
Easier my ass.
No, I'm getting angry, because women aren't mysterious at all. They think the exact same way you do, have the same emotions, the same nervousness. And there's this huge shortsightedness about the whole conversation I find absolutely repellent. There's this underlying assumption that they aren't aware of the cultural expectations put on them and are just snugly sitting at home or on their profile happily waiting for replies.
It's disgusting.
Morninglord on
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Yes. I think women hate sex. I'm glad my point was made...
/sarcasm
Sure, that's what I meant! You still haven't explained why you felt the need to bring up this tangent in the first place, by the way. Dudes have libidos, so... profit?
I said "you might be surprised" based on the number of women I've had this conversation with who were very surprised to not only hear this, but to have it confirmed by the other men in the room. I have not done a professional amount of research, no.
So if you feel the same way, then maybe I misunderstood your comment about sexual relationships (since you seem to be agreeing that all relationships are colored by sex).
Yeah I think we can safely establish by this point that you don't hang out with what could be called a representative subset of the female population on a regular basis
That's not an indictment, just be aware that anecdotes aren't data.
Yes. I think women hate sex. I'm glad my point was made...
/sarcasm
Sure, that's what I meant! You still haven't explained why you felt the need to bring up this tangent in the first place, by the way. Dudes have libidos, so... profit?
I said "you might be surprised" based on the number of women I've had this conversation with who were very surprised to not only hear this, but to have it confirmed by the other men in the room. I have not done a professional amount of research, no.
So if you feel the same way, then maybe I misunderstood your comment about sexual relationships (since you seem to be agreeing that all relationships are colored by sex).
Yeah I think we can safely establish by this point that you don't hang out with what could be called a representative subset of the female population on a regular basis
That's not an indictment, just be aware that anecdotes aren't data.
Roughly the same, with the added bonuses of trying to stay upright in heels while keeping one's drink free of roofies
really, how many times do we have to reiterate that the meat market that is your average nightclub is hell on earth for anyone with a shred of introspective personality?
Man, you think it's hard talking ot them now, imagine how hard it is when doing so is actively frowned on but you really really want to.
Easier my ass.
I would be shocked for a woman to come up to me to strike up a conversation (not because I don't think I'm worth talking to), but because of how unexpected it is.
That would be fucking great.
I had no idea this was frowned upon. Why do you think that is?
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RentI'm always rightFuckin' deal with itRegistered Userregular
The world doesn't owe people shit
However men with low-to-no self esteem believe the exact opposite- they don't deserve any relationship of any type with the opposite sex, which is just as irrational
The problem with assuming that someone "deserves" a relationship is that it puts the responsibility to be in that relationship on someone else.
Who else? Well, who knows. But assuming that such a relationship is deserved tends to make people very frustrated and angry when nobody they meet wants to be in this relationship - which in turn makes the frustrated individual even more angry, etc. At which point they're usually fair game for the PUA sleazebags to make some money off of who tell them how to claim what they supposedly deserve.
A much healthier way to look at it is for someone to make oneself into the sort of person others would want to be in a relationship with.
But my point is is that they already are a desirable person, however their self-image is so skewed that they can't see it
So they need to bullshit themselves with false confidence until they start to believe their own hype
Example (spoilered for personal)
I've been having problems with depression for a while, and I'm deployed in Iraq (as my location indicates)
Several weeks ago I was severly depressed, to the point of suicidal, so I went to get treated at the mental health clinic here
One of the first things we talked about how was was that I would personally torture myself over every little mistake I made on the job, which fed into my feelings of worthlessness, making me depressed
My therapist told me to 1) let that stupid shit go, 2) to realize that in the grand scheme of things minor mistakes are not all that big a problem as I let on 3) that I had very little confidence in myself, so thus set myself up for failure (by believing coming into a situation that I couldn't complete the task)
Thus his solution for the third problem was to bullshit myself into think I was very good at my job and could complete it well ("fake it till I make it"), which in turn would cyclically influence myself to truly believe that I was actually good at my job, building confidence
It worked pretty well for me, so I can't see why it wouldn't work well in a dating environment
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KalTorakOne way or another, they all end up inthe Undercity.Registered Userregular
There are no significant enough differences in personality or intelligence between men and women to make a claim that anybody has it easier.
If you make that claim you are in fantasy land.
Seriously. You guys need to stop that shit this instant.
The mistake men make is looking at it from the perspective that if whichever women they find utterly desireable were to make a move on them, they'd go for it. It seems easy if you presuppose the conclusion.
Pretty much this. How many times have I heard guys say "Man, I wish women would come up to me and ask me out/ask for sex the way guys are expected to! That'd be totally awesome!" (OK probably not since high school when we were all feeling hard done by). Inside the thought bubble is "Super hot woman asks me for sex. WOOO!" Except the 5% of women who fit into the "super hot" categorization you've constructed generally aren't the ones with confidence problems, just like the 5% of super hot guys don't have as hard a time chatting up women. How about the vast majority of people that aren't 100% confident and secure in their physical and social appearance? Odds are you're in that group, so are most guys, and so are most women.
Everyone feels nervous about initializing social contact. Women don't "have it easier" just because guys might be expected to make an opening move in the hypothetical bar scene. The most physically attractive women probably get approached a lot. The most physically attractive men also probably get approached a lot. For the rest of us? Guy or girl, sitting around and waiting to be approached won't work as often. That means taking a risk and going out there yourself, and probably getting nervous about it.
Man, you think it's hard talking ot them now, imagine how hard it is when doing so is actively frowned on but you really really want to.
Easier my ass.
I would be shocked for a woman to come up to me to strike up a conversation (not because I don't think I'm worth talking to), but because of how unexpected it is.
That would be fucking great.
I had no idea this was frowned upon. Why do you think that is?
I'm assuming in the same areas that these significant cultural differences being harped on about exist.
You know, where society and other convenient bullshit is.
I'm being hyperbolic, I think it's all retarded. We're all human beings at the core, with some different bits that don't make a big enough difference to talk about.
Morninglord on
(PSN: Morninglord) (Steam: Morninglord) (WiiU: Morninglord22) I like to record and toss up a lot of random gaming videos here.
Pickup stuff is a creepy game that people who aren't psychologists play by reading about psychology.
It's really not something I'd want to base any sort of relationship off of. How do you start dating a person when your first thought is "Ha! I tricked that moron!"
Edit: Oh, and is morninglord talking about women having a hard time talking to guys? I've definitely run into a few people who were annoyed by how they were expected to wait for him to play catch-up. I know if my girlfriend hadn't just said "DO YOU WANT A DATE WE CAN KISS OR SOMETHING" I'd probably still be dancing around the issue.
Yes. I think women hate sex. I'm glad my point was made...
/sarcasm
Sure, that's what I meant! You still haven't explained why you felt the need to bring up this tangent in the first place, by the way. Dudes have libidos, so... profit?
I said "you might be surprised" based on the number of women I've had this conversation with who were very surprised to not only hear this, but to have it confirmed by the other men in the room. I have not done a professional amount of research, no.
So if you feel the same way, then maybe I misunderstood your comment about sexual relationships (since you seem to be agreeing that all relationships are colored by sex).
Yeah I think we can safely establish by this point that you don't hang out with what could be called a representative subset of the female population on a regular basis
That's not an indictment, just be aware that anecdotes aren't data.
also, why should this scariness be confined to sexual relationships? Are they the only ones worth talking about?
To me, this implied that you think there are non-sexual social relationships. I posed a different line of thought based on my experiences, you (while coming down on me for it) agreed with me.
I'm getting two totally different reads on you. Maybe you can clear it up.
Do you hang out with a representative subset of the female population? Have you questioned them to get their point of view? Is anyone here speaking from anything but personal experience and anecdotes?
Improvolone on
Voice actor for hire. My time is free if your project is!
Posts
Essentially I'd say that if I was to be out socially like everyone else but not approach women i'd stay single. While if I was a women and went out the same amount I'd at least have people come talk to me. Maybe i'm simplifying it to much. Again i'd like to stress this is regarding meeting people and in relation to my social setting. If its different where you live maybe I need to move...
If you make that claim you are in fantasy land.
I think charging for stuff that's free has been the name of the game for years.
Seriously. You guys need to stop that shit this instant.
OK why does someone deserve a relationship? Why does the world owe people things all the sudden?
I don't think anyone has it easier (in this particular area anyway), but they do have it different.
And before you leap in, try not to forget that society exists.
And I'm not even talking about sexual relationships
Like, at all
I honestly don't care about one-night stands, nor bagging women, nor any of that stupid sexist bullshit (and considering that I'm in the military, in which the women are generally...to put it kindly...loose, it's not from lack of options); I care about and actual deep, meaningful relationship founded on mutual trust and respect. Sex is just a bonus
The Game is an awesome book, and pretty much the most honest takedown of the PUA culture that I know of.
The mistake men make is looking at it from the perspective that if whichever women they find utterly desireable were to make a move on them, they'd go for it. It seems easy if you presuppose the conclusion.
You might be surprised at how many men think of their female friends sexually. This isn't to say we all want to bang our friends and are only interested in being friends with people we'd bang, but based on the number of guys I've talked to about this, it is absolutely something that we've thought about. Therefor, nearly every relationship outside of purely professional and family is colored to some degree by sexuality.
I'm not talking about personality nor intelligence
Cultural expectation, however, places the onus on men to usually do most of the heavy lifting to initiate a relationship
Which one.
There are some pretty significant cultural differences. Not that anyone has it easier but often the challenges faced are often different in nature.
life is hard for everyone.
Eh it helps some people.
But from what I understand those people also generally get into for a reason other than having as much sex as possible in the shortest amount of time.
You read the book and all but yeah it is a pretty decent depiction of the whole scene. Thankfully it doesn't glamorize things too much and it reveals just how fucked up a lot of those dudes are.
Especially Mystery. Sad sad mystery.
However men with low-to-no self esteem believe the exact opposite- they don't deserve any relationship of any type with the opposite sex, which is just as irrational
You think women aren't the same? You're so charmingly naive
*while subtly checking out your ass. Seriously, dude, "you might be surprised"? Could you be any more condescending?
that doesn't mean they are easier, that the anxiety is magically lesser or the stress reduced.
At all.
How the fuck would you like it if you had to wait all the fucking time when you liked someone.
I think I'd find it intolerable.
Don't go off on a defensive "But but its different" tangent. Sure it's different. This doesn't make women be less nervous or have it any easier, which is what was originally said.
There's no room for woe is mens in these differences. It's woe is everyone, equally.
This is absofuckinglutely a grass is greener scenario. There are a ton of weird creepy people out there, even more so on-line. I've read messages my female friends get on OKC, it's ridiculous.
Whats also ridiculous is sending messages to dozens of women to see if you connect over something you liked in their profile (for conversation, not fucking), and to get no responses.
Hell, most men I know will even respond to messages from the women they have zero interest just because they know what its like to be constantly ignored.
Who else? Well, who knows. But assuming that such a relationship is deserved tends to make people very frustrated and angry when nobody they meet wants to be in this relationship - which in turn makes the frustrated individual even more angry, etc. At which point they're usually fair game for the PUA sleazebags to make some money off of who tell them how to claim what they supposedly deserve.
A much healthier way to look at it is for someone to make oneself into the sort of person others would want to be in a relationship with.
Stop it.
Just because you can't relate doesn't mean that difficulties don't exist. My goodness don't be so self absorbed.
And besides that even in the technological future there's still the expectation that men should generally initiate contact- which is maddening
Of course, none of this is an excuse for males with low self-esteem to not even put themselves out there, but to argue that the experience isn't easier for females as opposed to males is, in my opinion, naive
Yes. I think women hate sex. I'm glad my point was made...
/sarcasm
I said "you might be surprised" based on the number of women I've had this conversation with who were very surprised to not only hear this, but to have it confirmed by the other men in the room. I have not done a professional amount of research, no.
So if you feel the same way, then maybe I misunderstood your comment about sexual relationships (since you seem to be agreeing that all relationships are colored by sex).
So because you would like more messages you make the assumption that having more messages must be preferable for all people?
This is what you are doing. You should stop.
I thought "grass is greener" implies that while it looks better to be on the other side, it's probably just as difficult but you have no way of knowing. As far as I know, I'm agreeing with you.
The point is though its not about who's perception of the situation is harder, thats harder to determine or probably impossible. What we're trying to say is that the approaching of women for men can be a huge stumbling block.
Were talking about the pressures of socially standard roles in making relationships (sexual or otherwise). As someone mentioned before maybe trying to see how guys and gals approach the situation would be useful.
With potential to open up myself to ridicule heres how a situation would be in my head if I was to walk into a bar with some friends and try to get talking to a women:
[in my head] Ok my friends are sat over there enjoying themselves I'll grab a drink. Oh look theres a nice looking lady I'd love to chat to her. Oh crap she's with friends. Who's that better looking guy than me over there next to them. Nobody likes some weirdo to ruin your night, i'll try and talk to her while she's alone. Crap that means i'm stalking her! Do I look ok, I knew I should have shaved. I can't leave my mates in the lurch like this. Maybe a drink would help.
a few drinks later...
ok she's alone maybe it would be cool to speak to her. Ok what do I say? What happens if she just brushes me aside, thats going to be shit, why the hell would I put myself through that? What happens If I make a tit of myself or she thinks I'm boring. I'll try extra hard. But what happens if I scare her away, how cool is cool blah blah...
[end]
ad infinatum not a perfect example but these situations can be like that especially if you've just come out of a rough relationship or there are alot of people there. I'm sometimes amazed that people ever get with other people.
I'd really love to know how it is for you girls?
Also Morninglord I felt you think were saying this is fact. What were saying isn't claiming to be anything other than how men of a nervous disposition may view things.
Easier my ass.
No, I'm getting angry, because women aren't mysterious at all. They think the exact same way you do, have the same emotions, the same nervousness. And there's this huge shortsightedness about the whole conversation I find absolutely repellent. There's this underlying assumption that they aren't aware of the cultural expectations put on them and are just snugly sitting at home or on their profile happily waiting for replies.
It's disgusting.
That's not an indictment, just be aware that anecdotes aren't data.
Are you coming on to me?
really, how many times do we have to reiterate that the meat market that is your average nightclub is hell on earth for anyone with a shred of introspective personality?
I would be shocked for a woman to come up to me to strike up a conversation (not because I don't think I'm worth talking to), but because of how unexpected it is.
That would be fucking great.
I had no idea this was frowned upon. Why do you think that is?
But my point is is that they already are a desirable person, however their self-image is so skewed that they can't see it
So they need to bullshit themselves with false confidence until they start to believe their own hype
Example (spoilered for personal)
Several weeks ago I was severly depressed, to the point of suicidal, so I went to get treated at the mental health clinic here
One of the first things we talked about how was was that I would personally torture myself over every little mistake I made on the job, which fed into my feelings of worthlessness, making me depressed
My therapist told me to 1) let that stupid shit go, 2) to realize that in the grand scheme of things minor mistakes are not all that big a problem as I let on 3) that I had very little confidence in myself, so thus set myself up for failure (by believing coming into a situation that I couldn't complete the task)
Thus his solution for the third problem was to bullshit myself into think I was very good at my job and could complete it well ("fake it till I make it"), which in turn would cyclically influence myself to truly believe that I was actually good at my job, building confidence
It worked pretty well for me, so I can't see why it wouldn't work well in a dating environment
Pretty much this. How many times have I heard guys say "Man, I wish women would come up to me and ask me out/ask for sex the way guys are expected to! That'd be totally awesome!" (OK probably not since high school when we were all feeling hard done by). Inside the thought bubble is "Super hot woman asks me for sex. WOOO!" Except the 5% of women who fit into the "super hot" categorization you've constructed generally aren't the ones with confidence problems, just like the 5% of super hot guys don't have as hard a time chatting up women. How about the vast majority of people that aren't 100% confident and secure in their physical and social appearance? Odds are you're in that group, so are most guys, and so are most women.
Everyone feels nervous about initializing social contact. Women don't "have it easier" just because guys might be expected to make an opening move in the hypothetical bar scene. The most physically attractive women probably get approached a lot. The most physically attractive men also probably get approached a lot. For the rest of us? Guy or girl, sitting around and waiting to be approached won't work as often. That means taking a risk and going out there yourself, and probably getting nervous about it.
I'm assuming in the same areas that these significant cultural differences being harped on about exist.
You know, where society and other convenient bullshit is.
I'm being hyperbolic, I think it's all retarded. We're all human beings at the core, with some different bits that don't make a big enough difference to talk about.
It's really not something I'd want to base any sort of relationship off of. How do you start dating a person when your first thought is "Ha! I tricked that moron!"
Edit: Oh, and is morninglord talking about women having a hard time talking to guys? I've definitely run into a few people who were annoyed by how they were expected to wait for him to play catch-up. I know if my girlfriend hadn't just said "DO YOU WANT A DATE WE CAN KISS OR SOMETHING" I'd probably still be dancing around the issue.
You are the one who brought it up.
To me, this implied that you think there are non-sexual social relationships. I posed a different line of thought based on my experiences, you (while coming down on me for it) agreed with me.
I'm getting two totally different reads on you. Maybe you can clear it up.
Do you hang out with a representative subset of the female population? Have you questioned them to get their point of view? Is anyone here speaking from anything but personal experience and anecdotes?