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determinism

1246711

Posts

  • edited August 2009
    bongi wrote: »
    Tabasco wrote: »
    Tabasco wrote: »
    I really can't see how free will can exist. I do believe that humans are all just animals with no souls as well, so it's a pretty easy belief to have.

    so you are sixteen

    That's silly. When I was 16, most people I knew were religious and believed in souls. When you are younger, you are more inclined to believe in imaginary things as far as I can tell.

    no I am fairly certain that most adolescents these days go through a period of "we're just animals and biology is my religion" before they begin to find deeper meaning later in life

    yes, little kids are more likely to believe in imaginary things, but most hardcore atheists I know are teenagers

    although I will grant that things were probably the other way around forty years ago
    how delightfully arrogant of you to suppose that hardcore atheists are missing a 'deeper meaning'

    well I guess I mean the kinds of atheists who are like "fuck religion/spirituality is retarded and we're all just chemical processes and science is as deep as anything gets"

    the guys who are really vitriolic about their atheism

    that did sound pretty arrogant, I'm sorry :[
    you don't really mean they're missing a deeper meaning at all

    you mean that they're being brash

  • Me Too!Me Too! __BANNED USERS regular
    edited August 2009
    Shank, EitS is amazing and all, but I think it's pointless trying to argue that point against someone else's musical tastes.

    Look

    This is me

    I am the guy who enjoyed making fun of post-rock and was like what the fuck is this shit literally six months ago

    How Strange, Innocence, is in my top five albums right now

  • TabascoTabasco Registered User
    edited August 2009
    Tabasco wrote: »
    Tabasco wrote: »
    I really can't see how free will can exist. I do believe that humans are all just animals with no souls as well, so it's a pretty easy belief to have.

    so you are sixteen

    That's silly. When I was 16, most people I knew were religious and believed in souls. When you are younger, you are more inclined to believe in imaginary things as far as I can tell.

    no I am fairly certain that most adolescents these days go through a period of "we're just animals and biology is my religion" before they begin to find deeper meaning later in life

    yes, little kids are more likely to believe in imaginary things, but most hardcore atheists I know are teenagers

    although I will grant that things were probably the other way around forty years ago

    I'm only 24 dude. I also find plenty of deep and beautiful meaning in life. I have just never seen evidence for the existence of a soul. I also fail to see how we are anything other than the most complex lifeforms on the planet. Why is life any less beautiful or meaningful that way? Simplicity is truth and truth is beauty after all.

    Life is too important to be taken seriously.
    -Oscar Wilde
  • Charles KinboteCharles Kinbote Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    Shank, EitS is amazing and all, but I think it's pointless trying to argue that point against someone else's musical tastes.

    yes I know you goof

    I don't expect Meiz to go "oh fuck you're right I forgot"

    www.twitter.com/amazingwarlock
  • #pipe#pipe Cocky Stride, Musky odours Pope of Chili TownRegistered User regular
    edited August 2009
    Koshian wrote: »
    illinoise.jpg

    is that really that album's cover art?

    it's hideous

    regular%20sig.png
  • Tweaked_Bat_Tweaked_Bat_ Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    Me Too! wrote: »
    Shank, EitS is amazing and all, but I think it's pointless trying to argue that point against someone else's musical tastes.

    Look

    This is me

    I am the guy who enjoyed making fun of post-rock and was like what the fuck is this shit literally six months ago

    How Strange, Innocence, is in my top five albums right now

    Yes I am surprised by your admission, but in the end, it's still just

    OPINIONS

  • Tweaked_Bat_Tweaked_Bat_ Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    t Pipe: Yes it is. It's a nice record, but I prefer The Avalanche I think.

  • Charles KinboteCharles Kinbote Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    bongi wrote: »
    bongi wrote: »
    Tabasco wrote: »
    Tabasco wrote: »
    I really can't see how free will can exist. I do believe that humans are all just animals with no souls as well, so it's a pretty easy belief to have.

    so you are sixteen

    That's silly. When I was 16, most people I knew were religious and believed in souls. When you are younger, you are more inclined to believe in imaginary things as far as I can tell.

    no I am fairly certain that most adolescents these days go through a period of "we're just animals and biology is my religion" before they begin to find deeper meaning later in life

    yes, little kids are more likely to believe in imaginary things, but most hardcore atheists I know are teenagers

    although I will grant that things were probably the other way around forty years ago
    how delightfully arrogant of you to suppose that hardcore atheists are missing a 'deeper meaning'

    well I guess I mean the kinds of atheists who are like "fuck religion/spirituality is retarded and we're all just chemical processes and science is as deep as anything gets"

    the guys who are really vitriolic about their atheism

    that did sound pretty arrogant, I'm sorry :[
    you don't really mean they're missing a deeper meaning at all

    you mean that they're being brash

    yes

    I mean I do think there's a correlation between brash atheists and vehemently denying the possibility of any "meaning" in life

    and as these brash atheists get older they begin to feel that this sort of lifestyle isn't benefiting them as much as they think it does and they begin to (almost grudgingly) turn from their strictly scientific set of beliefs

    maybe this is just a weird localized thing that only I have experienced though

    www.twitter.com/amazingwarlock
  • KoshianKoshian __BANNED USERS regular
    edited August 2009
  • edited August 2009
    bongi wrote: »
    bongi wrote: »
    Tabasco wrote: »
    Tabasco wrote: »
    I really can't see how free will can exist. I do believe that humans are all just animals with no souls as well, so it's a pretty easy belief to have.

    so you are sixteen

    That's silly. When I was 16, most people I knew were religious and believed in souls. When you are younger, you are more inclined to believe in imaginary things as far as I can tell.

    no I am fairly certain that most adolescents these days go through a period of "we're just animals and biology is my religion" before they begin to find deeper meaning later in life

    yes, little kids are more likely to believe in imaginary things, but most hardcore atheists I know are teenagers

    although I will grant that things were probably the other way around forty years ago
    how delightfully arrogant of you to suppose that hardcore atheists are missing a 'deeper meaning'

    well I guess I mean the kinds of atheists who are like "fuck religion/spirituality is retarded and we're all just chemical processes and science is as deep as anything gets"

    the guys who are really vitriolic about their atheism

    that did sound pretty arrogant, I'm sorry :[
    you don't really mean they're missing a deeper meaning at all

    you mean that they're being brash

    yes

    I mean I do think there's a correlation between brash atheists and vehemently denying the possibility of any "meaning" in life

    and as these brash atheists get older they begin to feel that this sort of lifestyle isn't benefiting them as much as they think it does and they begin to (almost grudgingly) turn from their strictly scientific set of beliefs

    maybe this is just a weird localized thing that only I have experienced though
    To be honest I'm not entirely sure what you mean.

  • Mr. Henry BemisMr. Henry Bemis Registered User
    edited August 2009
    bongi wrote: »
    bongi wrote: »
    bongi wrote: »
    Tabasco wrote: »
    Tabasco wrote: »
    I really can't see how free will can exist. I do believe that humans are all just animals with no souls as well, so it's a pretty easy belief to have.

    so you are sixteen

    That's silly. When I was 16, most people I knew were religious and believed in souls. When you are younger, you are more inclined to believe in imaginary things as far as I can tell.

    no I am fairly certain that most adolescents these days go through a period of "we're just animals and biology is my religion" before they begin to find deeper meaning later in life

    yes, little kids are more likely to believe in imaginary things, but most hardcore atheists I know are teenagers

    although I will grant that things were probably the other way around forty years ago
    how delightfully arrogant of you to suppose that hardcore atheists are missing a 'deeper meaning'

    well I guess I mean the kinds of atheists who are like "fuck religion/spirituality is retarded and we're all just chemical processes and science is as deep as anything gets"

    the guys who are really vitriolic about their atheism

    that did sound pretty arrogant, I'm sorry :[
    you don't really mean they're missing a deeper meaning at all

    you mean that they're being brash

    yes

    I mean I do think there's a correlation between brash atheists and vehemently denying the possibility of any "meaning" in life

    and as these brash atheists get older they begin to feel that this sort of lifestyle isn't benefiting them as much as they think it does and they begin to (almost grudgingly) turn from their strictly scientific set of beliefs

    maybe this is just a weird localized thing that only I have experienced though
    To be honest I'm not entirely sure what you mean.
    all shank is describing is a person becoming more open minded as they age

    All things appear and disappear because of the concurrence of causes and conditions. Nothing ever exists entirely alone; everything is in relation to everything else.
  • edited August 2009
    bongi wrote: »
    bongi wrote: »
    bongi wrote: »
    Tabasco wrote: »
    Tabasco wrote: »
    I really can't see how free will can exist. I do believe that humans are all just animals with no souls as well, so it's a pretty easy belief to have.

    so you are sixteen

    That's silly. When I was 16, most people I knew were religious and believed in souls. When you are younger, you are more inclined to believe in imaginary things as far as I can tell.

    no I am fairly certain that most adolescents these days go through a period of "we're just animals and biology is my religion" before they begin to find deeper meaning later in life

    yes, little kids are more likely to believe in imaginary things, but most hardcore atheists I know are teenagers

    although I will grant that things were probably the other way around forty years ago
    how delightfully arrogant of you to suppose that hardcore atheists are missing a 'deeper meaning'

    well I guess I mean the kinds of atheists who are like "fuck religion/spirituality is retarded and we're all just chemical processes and science is as deep as anything gets"

    the guys who are really vitriolic about their atheism

    that did sound pretty arrogant, I'm sorry :[
    you don't really mean they're missing a deeper meaning at all

    you mean that they're being brash

    yes

    I mean I do think there's a correlation between brash atheists and vehemently denying the possibility of any "meaning" in life

    and as these brash atheists get older they begin to feel that this sort of lifestyle isn't benefiting them as much as they think it does and they begin to (almost grudgingly) turn from their strictly scientific set of beliefs

    maybe this is just a weird localized thing that only I have experienced though
    To be honest I'm not entirely sure what you mean.
    all shank is describing is a person becoming more open minded as they age
    Right but I don't really understand what 'strictly scientific beliefs' means and how far they slide. Maybe I'm being too philosophical.

    edit:I also have a personal pet peeve with misuse of the term 'open minded'.

  • #pipe#pipe Cocky Stride, Musky odours Pope of Chili TownRegistered User regular
    edited August 2009
    man these hipsters

    even their cover art is ironic

    regular%20sig.png
  • PiptheFairPiptheFair Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    or maybe you're be not too philisophical enough

    STEAM
    Spoiler:
  • Charles KinboteCharles Kinbote Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    bongi wrote: »
    bongi wrote: »
    bongi wrote: »
    bongi wrote: »
    Tabasco wrote: »
    Tabasco wrote: »
    I really can't see how free will can exist. I do believe that humans are all just animals with no souls as well, so it's a pretty easy belief to have.

    so you are sixteen

    That's silly. When I was 16, most people I knew were religious and believed in souls. When you are younger, you are more inclined to believe in imaginary things as far as I can tell.

    no I am fairly certain that most adolescents these days go through a period of "we're just animals and biology is my religion" before they begin to find deeper meaning later in life

    yes, little kids are more likely to believe in imaginary things, but most hardcore atheists I know are teenagers

    although I will grant that things were probably the other way around forty years ago
    how delightfully arrogant of you to suppose that hardcore atheists are missing a 'deeper meaning'

    well I guess I mean the kinds of atheists who are like "fuck religion/spirituality is retarded and we're all just chemical processes and science is as deep as anything gets"

    the guys who are really vitriolic about their atheism

    that did sound pretty arrogant, I'm sorry :[
    you don't really mean they're missing a deeper meaning at all

    you mean that they're being brash

    yes

    I mean I do think there's a correlation between brash atheists and vehemently denying the possibility of any "meaning" in life

    and as these brash atheists get older they begin to feel that this sort of lifestyle isn't benefiting them as much as they think it does and they begin to (almost grudgingly) turn from their strictly scientific set of beliefs

    maybe this is just a weird localized thing that only I have experienced though
    To be honest I'm not entirely sure what you mean.
    all shank is describing is a person becoming more open minded as they age
    Right but I don't really understand what 'strictly scientific beliefs' means and how far they slide. Maybe I'm being too philosophical.

    It means people who believe that we are bags of meat that are born and when we die our consciousness is extinguished and there's no such things as souls or energy or God or any greater meaning

    people who ground the entirety of their beliefs in science

    www.twitter.com/amazingwarlock
  • Mr. Henry BemisMr. Henry Bemis Registered User
    edited August 2009
    bongi wrote: »
    bongi wrote: »
    bongi wrote: »
    bongi wrote: »
    Tabasco wrote: »
    Tabasco wrote: »
    I really can't see how free will can exist. I do believe that humans are all just animals with no souls as well, so it's a pretty easy belief to have.

    so you are sixteen

    That's silly. When I was 16, most people I knew were religious and believed in souls. When you are younger, you are more inclined to believe in imaginary things as far as I can tell.

    no I am fairly certain that most adolescents these days go through a period of "we're just animals and biology is my religion" before they begin to find deeper meaning later in life

    yes, little kids are more likely to believe in imaginary things, but most hardcore atheists I know are teenagers

    although I will grant that things were probably the other way around forty years ago
    how delightfully arrogant of you to suppose that hardcore atheists are missing a 'deeper meaning'

    well I guess I mean the kinds of atheists who are like "fuck religion/spirituality is retarded and we're all just chemical processes and science is as deep as anything gets"

    the guys who are really vitriolic about their atheism

    that did sound pretty arrogant, I'm sorry :[
    you don't really mean they're missing a deeper meaning at all

    you mean that they're being brash

    yes

    I mean I do think there's a correlation between brash atheists and vehemently denying the possibility of any "meaning" in life

    and as these brash atheists get older they begin to feel that this sort of lifestyle isn't benefiting them as much as they think it does and they begin to (almost grudgingly) turn from their strictly scientific set of beliefs

    maybe this is just a weird localized thing that only I have experienced though
    To be honest I'm not entirely sure what you mean.
    all shank is describing is a person becoming more open minded as they age
    Right but I don't really understand what 'strictly scientific beliefs' means and how far they slide. Maybe I'm being too philosophical.

    edit:I also have a personal pet peeve with misuse of the term 'open minded'.
    care to elucidate

    All things appear and disappear because of the concurrence of causes and conditions. Nothing ever exists entirely alone; everything is in relation to everything else.
  • scarlet st.scarlet st. Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    Koshian wrote: »
    allow me to share my opinions on this topic:

    kitties.png

    I guess these are close enough to the jism police.

    japsig.jpg
  • AbracadanielAbracadaniel Certified BrimperRegistered User regular
    edited August 2009
    if bongi is going to explain what I think he is, I will <3 him

    sites: personal | tumblr | abracadaniel dot com | coolguy.me
    services I recommend: tonx coffee *highly recommended* | everlane
    Secret Satan Wishlists: Regular List Coffee Stuff
    FUNTENDO DS BROCODE: 2337-4364-1683
  • scarlet st.scarlet st. Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    Smart Hero wrote: »
    if bongi is going to explain what I think he is, I will <3 him

    from 50 yards anyway

    japsig.jpg
  • edited August 2009
    It means people who believe that we are bags of meat that are born and when we die our consciousness is extinguished and there's no such things as souls or energy or God or any greater meaning

    people who ground the entirety of their beliefs in science
    I ground my beliefs in my experience and I still don't believe there are souls.

    tBemis: I don't like it when 'open-minded' is used to mean 'happy to accept wishful thinking and conjecture' rather than 'open to having their mind changed'. For example, it's not 'open minded' to believe in ghosts, it's irrational. On the other hand, if you accept someone's point of view, and adopt it, based on a strong argument or evidence for it, even if you have to reject a preconception, that's open minded. That's how I see it, in any case.

  • AbracadanielAbracadaniel Certified BrimperRegistered User regular
    edited August 2009
    nah it's most like 8000 miles or so dogg


    bongi there's an excellent video from. . .I can't recall who, who goes into that in more detail. Open-mindedness is no good without critical thinking skills.

    sites: personal | tumblr | abracadaniel dot com | coolguy.me
    services I recommend: tonx coffee *highly recommended* | everlane
    Secret Satan Wishlists: Regular List Coffee Stuff
    FUNTENDO DS BROCODE: 2337-4364-1683
  • Mr. Henry BemisMr. Henry Bemis Registered User
    edited August 2009
    bongi wrote: »
    It means people who believe that we are bags of meat that are born and when we die our consciousness is extinguished and there's no such things as souls or energy or God or any greater meaning

    people who ground the entirety of their beliefs in science
    I ground my beliefs in my experience and I still don't believe there are souls.

    tBemis: I don't like it when 'open-minded' is used to mean 'happy to accept wishful thinking and conjecture' rather than 'open to having their mind changed'. For example, it's not 'open minded' to believe in ghosts, it's irrational. That's how I see it, in any case.
    oh i thought you meant how i used it

    yes i agree with that pretty completely

    All things appear and disappear because of the concurrence of causes and conditions. Nothing ever exists entirely alone; everything is in relation to everything else.
  • Charles KinboteCharles Kinbote Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    bongi wrote: »
    It means people who believe that we are bags of meat that are born and when we die our consciousness is extinguished and there's no such things as souls or energy or God or any greater meaning

    people who ground the entirety of their beliefs in science
    I ground my beliefs in my experience and I still don't believe there are souls.

    yes but I also haven't seen behavior in you that would indicate that you're the type of vitriolic atheist who believes that religion is worthless and spirituality is unconditionally stupid

    www.twitter.com/amazingwarlock
  • AbracadanielAbracadaniel Certified BrimperRegistered User regular
    edited August 2009
    Found it! It's by Dawkins, who can be kind of an ass, but it's a good video to check out.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T69TOuqaqXI&feature=player_embedded

    sites: personal | tumblr | abracadaniel dot com | coolguy.me
    services I recommend: tonx coffee *highly recommended* | everlane
    Secret Satan Wishlists: Regular List Coffee Stuff
    FUNTENDO DS BROCODE: 2337-4364-1683
  • edited August 2009
    bongi wrote: »
    It means people who believe that we are bags of meat that are born and when we die our consciousness is extinguished and there's no such things as souls or energy or God or any greater meaning

    people who ground the entirety of their beliefs in science
    I ground my beliefs in my experience and I still don't believe there are souls.

    yes but I also haven't seen behavior in you that would indicate that you're the type of vitriolic atheist who believes that religion is worthless and spirituality is unconditionally stupid
    Ah, so you think it's specifically the vitriolic physicalists who tend to later renounce physicalism?

  • #pipe#pipe Cocky Stride, Musky odours Pope of Chili TownRegistered User regular
    edited August 2009
    Smart Hero wrote: »
    nah it's most like 8000 miles or so dogg


    bongi there's an excellent video from. . .I can't recall who, who goes into that in more detail. Open-mindedness is no good without critical thinking skills.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T69TOuqaqXI

    edit: oops
    oh dang it's by dawkins? that guy is a dick

    regular%20sig.png
  • KoshianKoshian __BANNED USERS regular
    edited August 2009
    Koshian wrote: »
    allow me to share my opinions on this topic:

    kitties.png

    I guess these are close enough to the jism police.

    kitty police!

    kitty jism?

  • Charles KinboteCharles Kinbote Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    bongi wrote: »
    bongi wrote: »
    It means people who believe that we are bags of meat that are born and when we die our consciousness is extinguished and there's no such things as souls or energy or God or any greater meaning

    people who ground the entirety of their beliefs in science
    I ground my beliefs in my experience and I still don't believe there are souls.

    yes but I also haven't seen behavior in you that would indicate that you're the type of vitriolic atheist who believes that religion is worthless and spirituality is unconditionally stupid
    Ah, so you think it's specifically the vitriolic physicalists who tend to later renounce physicalism?

    well that's what I'm referring to

    that as people grow older they are more likely to go from die-hard atheist/physicalists (I don't know that term) to a more spiritual or at least less vitriolic point of view

    www.twitter.com/amazingwarlock
  • #pipe#pipe Cocky Stride, Musky odours Pope of Chili TownRegistered User regular
    edited August 2009
    that is clearly kitty ectoplasm

    regular%20sig.png
  • Tweaked_Bat_Tweaked_Bat_ Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    Bongi I think you might be over-thinking what Shank said.

    Shank is just saying there are people who believe in a certain thing vehemently for a long time then come to realise that maybe, just maybe, they weren't so right all along, and they shift their viewpoints accordingly.

    edit: In this case the the "thing" is atheism or what have you.

  • KoshianKoshian __BANNED USERS regular
    edited August 2009
  • TenTen Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    Shank, that might be true in the case of teenagers who take on those atheist beliefs as a teenage rebellion of their upbringing, but I doubt anybody who decides their are an atheist based on their own critical thinking is going to become more spiritual just by aging.

  • Mr. Henry BemisMr. Henry Bemis Registered User
    edited August 2009
    bongi wrote: »
    bongi wrote: »
    It means people who believe that we are bags of meat that are born and when we die our consciousness is extinguished and there's no such things as souls or energy or God or any greater meaning

    people who ground the entirety of their beliefs in science
    I ground my beliefs in my experience and I still don't believe there are souls.

    yes but I also haven't seen behavior in you that would indicate that you're the type of vitriolic atheist who believes that religion is worthless and spirituality is unconditionally stupid
    Ah, so you think it's specifically the vitriolic physicalists who tend to later renounce physicalism?

    well that's what I'm referring to

    that as people grow older they are more likely to go from die-hard atheist/physicalists (I don't know that term) to a more spiritual or at least less vitriolic point of view
    it's just a more advanced form of materialism, essentially

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Physicalist

    All things appear and disappear because of the concurrence of causes and conditions. Nothing ever exists entirely alone; everything is in relation to everything else.
  • MetalbourneMetalbourne Tube's Favorite Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    I just renounce all of my beliefs once every other year and start over with a new set.

  • Charles KinboteCharles Kinbote Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    Ten wrote: »
    Shank, that might be true in the case of teenagers who take on those atheist beliefs as a teenage rebellion of their upbringing, but I doubt anybody who decides their are an atheist based on their own critical thinking is going to become more spiritual just by aging.

    I believe it's true of teenagers who take the beliefs on even if it's not "teenage rebellion"

    critical thinking changes an awful lot between fifteen and thirty

    www.twitter.com/amazingwarlock
  • Tweaked_Bat_Tweaked_Bat_ Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    Also people learn and experience things as they go through life.

    I guess that plays a part in shaping your views.

    Huh.

  • edited August 2009
    I am sorry Shank but I still think your claim still comes off as more than a bit arrogant.

  • Charles KinboteCharles Kinbote Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    bongi wrote: »
    I am sorry Shank but I still think your claim still comes off as more than a bit arrogant.

    it's not a claim, it's an observation

    nothing arrogant about an observation

    www.twitter.com/amazingwarlock
  • Tweaked_Bat_Tweaked_Bat_ Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    bongi wrote: »
    I am sorry Shank but I still think your claim still comes off as more than a bit arrogant.

    Well, it is Shank we're talking about here.

  • edited August 2009
    bongi wrote: »
    I am sorry Shank but I still think your claim still comes off as more than a bit arrogant.

    it's not a claim, it's an observation

    nothing arrogant about an observation
    That's true. I guess I'm just extrapolating from your observation to "and they're better off for it!". Sorry.

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