I really can't see how free will can exist. I do believe that humans are all just animals with no souls as well, so it's a pretty easy belief to have.
so you are sixteen
That's silly. When I was 16, most people I knew were religious and believed in souls. When you are younger, you are more inclined to believe in imaginary things as far as I can tell.
no I am fairly certain that most adolescents these days go through a period of "we're just animals and biology is my religion" before they begin to find deeper meaning later in life
yes, little kids are more likely to believe in imaginary things, but most hardcore atheists I know are teenagers
although I will grant that things were probably the other way around forty years ago
I'm only 24 dude. I also find plenty of deep and beautiful meaning in life. I have just never seen evidence for the existence of a soul. I also fail to see how we are anything other than the most complex lifeforms on the planet. Why is life any less beautiful or meaningful that way? Simplicity is truth and truth is beauty after all.
Tabasco on
Life is too important to be taken seriously.
-Oscar Wilde
I really can't see how free will can exist. I do believe that humans are all just animals with no souls as well, so it's a pretty easy belief to have.
so you are sixteen
That's silly. When I was 16, most people I knew were religious and believed in souls. When you are younger, you are more inclined to believe in imaginary things as far as I can tell.
no I am fairly certain that most adolescents these days go through a period of "we're just animals and biology is my religion" before they begin to find deeper meaning later in life
yes, little kids are more likely to believe in imaginary things, but most hardcore atheists I know are teenagers
although I will grant that things were probably the other way around forty years ago
how delightfully arrogant of you to suppose that hardcore atheists are missing a 'deeper meaning'
well I guess I mean the kinds of atheists who are like "fuck religion/spirituality is retarded and we're all just chemical processes and science is as deep as anything gets"
the guys who are really vitriolic about their atheism
that did sound pretty arrogant, I'm sorry :[
you don't really mean they're missing a deeper meaning at all
you mean that they're being brash
yes
I mean I do think there's a correlation between brash atheists and vehemently denying the possibility of any "meaning" in life
and as these brash atheists get older they begin to feel that this sort of lifestyle isn't benefiting them as much as they think it does and they begin to (almost grudgingly) turn from their strictly scientific set of beliefs
maybe this is just a weird localized thing that only I have experienced though
I really can't see how free will can exist. I do believe that humans are all just animals with no souls as well, so it's a pretty easy belief to have.
so you are sixteen
That's silly. When I was 16, most people I knew were religious and believed in souls. When you are younger, you are more inclined to believe in imaginary things as far as I can tell.
no I am fairly certain that most adolescents these days go through a period of "we're just animals and biology is my religion" before they begin to find deeper meaning later in life
yes, little kids are more likely to believe in imaginary things, but most hardcore atheists I know are teenagers
although I will grant that things were probably the other way around forty years ago
how delightfully arrogant of you to suppose that hardcore atheists are missing a 'deeper meaning'
well I guess I mean the kinds of atheists who are like "fuck religion/spirituality is retarded and we're all just chemical processes and science is as deep as anything gets"
the guys who are really vitriolic about their atheism
that did sound pretty arrogant, I'm sorry :[
you don't really mean they're missing a deeper meaning at all
you mean that they're being brash
yes
I mean I do think there's a correlation between brash atheists and vehemently denying the possibility of any "meaning" in life
and as these brash atheists get older they begin to feel that this sort of lifestyle isn't benefiting them as much as they think it does and they begin to (almost grudgingly) turn from their strictly scientific set of beliefs
maybe this is just a weird localized thing that only I have experienced though
I really can't see how free will can exist. I do believe that humans are all just animals with no souls as well, so it's a pretty easy belief to have.
so you are sixteen
That's silly. When I was 16, most people I knew were religious and believed in souls. When you are younger, you are more inclined to believe in imaginary things as far as I can tell.
no I am fairly certain that most adolescents these days go through a period of "we're just animals and biology is my religion" before they begin to find deeper meaning later in life
yes, little kids are more likely to believe in imaginary things, but most hardcore atheists I know are teenagers
although I will grant that things were probably the other way around forty years ago
how delightfully arrogant of you to suppose that hardcore atheists are missing a 'deeper meaning'
well I guess I mean the kinds of atheists who are like "fuck religion/spirituality is retarded and we're all just chemical processes and science is as deep as anything gets"
the guys who are really vitriolic about their atheism
that did sound pretty arrogant, I'm sorry :[
you don't really mean they're missing a deeper meaning at all
you mean that they're being brash
yes
I mean I do think there's a correlation between brash atheists and vehemently denying the possibility of any "meaning" in life
and as these brash atheists get older they begin to feel that this sort of lifestyle isn't benefiting them as much as they think it does and they begin to (almost grudgingly) turn from their strictly scientific set of beliefs
maybe this is just a weird localized thing that only I have experienced though
To be honest I'm not entirely sure what you mean.
all shank is describing is a person becoming more open minded as they age
I really can't see how free will can exist. I do believe that humans are all just animals with no souls as well, so it's a pretty easy belief to have.
so you are sixteen
That's silly. When I was 16, most people I knew were religious and believed in souls. When you are younger, you are more inclined to believe in imaginary things as far as I can tell.
no I am fairly certain that most adolescents these days go through a period of "we're just animals and biology is my religion" before they begin to find deeper meaning later in life
yes, little kids are more likely to believe in imaginary things, but most hardcore atheists I know are teenagers
although I will grant that things were probably the other way around forty years ago
how delightfully arrogant of you to suppose that hardcore atheists are missing a 'deeper meaning'
well I guess I mean the kinds of atheists who are like "fuck religion/spirituality is retarded and we're all just chemical processes and science is as deep as anything gets"
the guys who are really vitriolic about their atheism
that did sound pretty arrogant, I'm sorry :[
you don't really mean they're missing a deeper meaning at all
you mean that they're being brash
yes
I mean I do think there's a correlation between brash atheists and vehemently denying the possibility of any "meaning" in life
and as these brash atheists get older they begin to feel that this sort of lifestyle isn't benefiting them as much as they think it does and they begin to (almost grudgingly) turn from their strictly scientific set of beliefs
maybe this is just a weird localized thing that only I have experienced though
To be honest I'm not entirely sure what you mean.
all shank is describing is a person becoming more open minded as they age
Right but I don't really understand what 'strictly scientific beliefs' means and how far they slide. Maybe I'm being too philosophical.
edit:I also have a personal pet peeve with misuse of the term 'open minded'.
bongi on
0
#pipeCocky Stride, Musky odoursPope of Chili TownRegistered Userregular
I really can't see how free will can exist. I do believe that humans are all just animals with no souls as well, so it's a pretty easy belief to have.
so you are sixteen
That's silly. When I was 16, most people I knew were religious and believed in souls. When you are younger, you are more inclined to believe in imaginary things as far as I can tell.
no I am fairly certain that most adolescents these days go through a period of "we're just animals and biology is my religion" before they begin to find deeper meaning later in life
yes, little kids are more likely to believe in imaginary things, but most hardcore atheists I know are teenagers
although I will grant that things were probably the other way around forty years ago
how delightfully arrogant of you to suppose that hardcore atheists are missing a 'deeper meaning'
well I guess I mean the kinds of atheists who are like "fuck religion/spirituality is retarded and we're all just chemical processes and science is as deep as anything gets"
the guys who are really vitriolic about their atheism
that did sound pretty arrogant, I'm sorry :[
you don't really mean they're missing a deeper meaning at all
you mean that they're being brash
yes
I mean I do think there's a correlation between brash atheists and vehemently denying the possibility of any "meaning" in life
and as these brash atheists get older they begin to feel that this sort of lifestyle isn't benefiting them as much as they think it does and they begin to (almost grudgingly) turn from their strictly scientific set of beliefs
maybe this is just a weird localized thing that only I have experienced though
To be honest I'm not entirely sure what you mean.
all shank is describing is a person becoming more open minded as they age
Right but I don't really understand what 'strictly scientific beliefs' means and how far they slide. Maybe I'm being too philosophical.
It means people who believe that we are bags of meat that are born and when we die our consciousness is extinguished and there's no such things as souls or energy or God or any greater meaning
people who ground the entirety of their beliefs in science
I really can't see how free will can exist. I do believe that humans are all just animals with no souls as well, so it's a pretty easy belief to have.
so you are sixteen
That's silly. When I was 16, most people I knew were religious and believed in souls. When you are younger, you are more inclined to believe in imaginary things as far as I can tell.
no I am fairly certain that most adolescents these days go through a period of "we're just animals and biology is my religion" before they begin to find deeper meaning later in life
yes, little kids are more likely to believe in imaginary things, but most hardcore atheists I know are teenagers
although I will grant that things were probably the other way around forty years ago
how delightfully arrogant of you to suppose that hardcore atheists are missing a 'deeper meaning'
well I guess I mean the kinds of atheists who are like "fuck religion/spirituality is retarded and we're all just chemical processes and science is as deep as anything gets"
the guys who are really vitriolic about their atheism
that did sound pretty arrogant, I'm sorry :[
you don't really mean they're missing a deeper meaning at all
you mean that they're being brash
yes
I mean I do think there's a correlation between brash atheists and vehemently denying the possibility of any "meaning" in life
and as these brash atheists get older they begin to feel that this sort of lifestyle isn't benefiting them as much as they think it does and they begin to (almost grudgingly) turn from their strictly scientific set of beliefs
maybe this is just a weird localized thing that only I have experienced though
To be honest I'm not entirely sure what you mean.
all shank is describing is a person becoming more open minded as they age
Right but I don't really understand what 'strictly scientific beliefs' means and how far they slide. Maybe I'm being too philosophical.
edit:I also have a personal pet peeve with misuse of the term 'open minded'.
It means people who believe that we are bags of meat that are born and when we die our consciousness is extinguished and there's no such things as souls or energy or God or any greater meaning
people who ground the entirety of their beliefs in science
I ground my beliefs in my experience and I still don't believe there are souls.
tBemis: I don't like it when 'open-minded' is used to mean 'happy to accept wishful thinking and conjecture' rather than 'open to having their mind changed'. For example, it's not 'open minded' to believe in ghosts, it's irrational. On the other hand, if you accept someone's point of view, and adopt it, based on a strong argument or evidence for it, even if you have to reject a preconception, that's open minded. That's how I see it, in any case.
bongi there's an excellent video from. . .I can't recall who, who goes into that in more detail. Open-mindedness is no good without critical thinking skills.
It means people who believe that we are bags of meat that are born and when we die our consciousness is extinguished and there's no such things as souls or energy or God or any greater meaning
people who ground the entirety of their beliefs in science
I ground my beliefs in my experience and I still don't believe there are souls.
tBemis: I don't like it when 'open-minded' is used to mean 'happy to accept wishful thinking and conjecture' rather than 'open to having their mind changed'. For example, it's not 'open minded' to believe in ghosts, it's irrational. That's how I see it, in any case.
It means people who believe that we are bags of meat that are born and when we die our consciousness is extinguished and there's no such things as souls or energy or God or any greater meaning
people who ground the entirety of their beliefs in science
I ground my beliefs in my experience and I still don't believe there are souls.
yes but I also haven't seen behavior in you that would indicate that you're the type of vitriolic atheist who believes that religion is worthless and spirituality is unconditionally stupid
It means people who believe that we are bags of meat that are born and when we die our consciousness is extinguished and there's no such things as souls or energy or God or any greater meaning
people who ground the entirety of their beliefs in science
I ground my beliefs in my experience and I still don't believe there are souls.
yes but I also haven't seen behavior in you that would indicate that you're the type of vitriolic atheist who believes that religion is worthless and spirituality is unconditionally stupid
Ah, so you think it's specifically the vitriolic physicalists who tend to later renounce physicalism?
bongi on
0
#pipeCocky Stride, Musky odoursPope of Chili TownRegistered Userregular
bongi there's an excellent video from. . .I can't recall who, who goes into that in more detail. Open-mindedness is no good without critical thinking skills.
It means people who believe that we are bags of meat that are born and when we die our consciousness is extinguished and there's no such things as souls or energy or God or any greater meaning
people who ground the entirety of their beliefs in science
I ground my beliefs in my experience and I still don't believe there are souls.
yes but I also haven't seen behavior in you that would indicate that you're the type of vitriolic atheist who believes that religion is worthless and spirituality is unconditionally stupid
Ah, so you think it's specifically the vitriolic physicalists who tend to later renounce physicalism?
well that's what I'm referring to
that as people grow older they are more likely to go from die-hard atheist/physicalists (I don't know that term) to a more spiritual or at least less vitriolic point of view
Charles Kinbote on
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#pipeCocky Stride, Musky odoursPope of Chili TownRegistered Userregular
Bongi I think you might be over-thinking what Shank said.
Shank is just saying there are people who believe in a certain thing vehemently for a long time then come to realise that maybe, just maybe, they weren't so right all along, and they shift their viewpoints accordingly.
edit: In this case the the "thing" is atheism or what have you.
Shank, that might be true in the case of teenagers who take on those atheist beliefs as a teenage rebellion of their upbringing, but I doubt anybody who decides their are an atheist based on their own critical thinking is going to become more spiritual just by aging.
It means people who believe that we are bags of meat that are born and when we die our consciousness is extinguished and there's no such things as souls or energy or God or any greater meaning
people who ground the entirety of their beliefs in science
I ground my beliefs in my experience and I still don't believe there are souls.
yes but I also haven't seen behavior in you that would indicate that you're the type of vitriolic atheist who believes that religion is worthless and spirituality is unconditionally stupid
Ah, so you think it's specifically the vitriolic physicalists who tend to later renounce physicalism?
well that's what I'm referring to
that as people grow older they are more likely to go from die-hard atheist/physicalists (I don't know that term) to a more spiritual or at least less vitriolic point of view
it's just a more advanced form of materialism, essentially
Shank, that might be true in the case of teenagers who take on those atheist beliefs as a teenage rebellion of their upbringing, but I doubt anybody who decides their are an atheist based on their own critical thinking is going to become more spiritual just by aging.
I believe it's true of teenagers who take the beliefs on even if it's not "teenage rebellion"
critical thinking changes an awful lot between fifteen and thirty
Yes, but my point is that somebody who bases their beliefs on evidence and the scientific method is not going to start believing in something unless that life experience provides them with that evidence. And by evidence I mean something that stands up to the rigors of the scientific method. Somebody who is convinced by anything else obviously didn't understand the scientific method to begin with.
Edit: I am so slow, that was responding to TB way back there
I am sorry Shank but I still think your claim still comes off as more than a bit arrogant.
i'm forced to agree
you're forming a hypothesis about how a vast group behaves based on localized anecdotes and your own presumably deep understanding of how critical thinking develops as you age, even past the age you yourself have attained
edit: i suppose you were merely sharing the anecdotes and speculating, you just had some forceful language goin' on
I am sorry Shank but I still think your claim still comes off as more than a bit arrogant.
i'm forced to agree
you're forming a hypothesis about how a vast group behaves based on localized anecdotes and your own presumably deep understanding of how critical thinking develops as you age, even past the age you yourself have attained
uh, no I'm not
I'm saying that most vitriolically atheist teenagers I know have become significantly less atheistic as they have grown older
Yes, but my point is that somebody who bases their beliefs on evidence and the scientific method is not going to start believing in something unless that life experience provides them with that evidence. And by evidence I mean something that stands up to the rigors of the scientific method. Somebody who is convinced by anything else obviously didn't understand the scientific method to begin with.
Edit: I am so slow, that was responding to TB way back there
Posts
I'm only 24 dude. I also find plenty of deep and beautiful meaning in life. I have just never seen evidence for the existence of a soul. I also fail to see how we are anything other than the most complex lifeforms on the planet. Why is life any less beautiful or meaningful that way? Simplicity is truth and truth is beauty after all.
-Oscar Wilde
yes I know you goof
I don't expect Meiz to go "oh fuck you're right I forgot"
is that really that album's cover art?
it's hideous
Need some stuff designed or printed? I can help with that.
Yes I am surprised by your admission, but in the end, it's still just
OPINIONS
yes
I mean I do think there's a correlation between brash atheists and vehemently denying the possibility of any "meaning" in life
and as these brash atheists get older they begin to feel that this sort of lifestyle isn't benefiting them as much as they think it does and they begin to (almost grudgingly) turn from their strictly scientific set of beliefs
maybe this is just a weird localized thing that only I have experienced though
edit:I also have a personal pet peeve with misuse of the term 'open minded'.
even their cover art is ironic
Need some stuff designed or printed? I can help with that.
It means people who believe that we are bags of meat that are born and when we die our consciousness is extinguished and there's no such things as souls or energy or God or any greater meaning
people who ground the entirety of their beliefs in science
I guess these are close enough to the jism police.
from 50 yards anyway
tBemis: I don't like it when 'open-minded' is used to mean 'happy to accept wishful thinking and conjecture' rather than 'open to having their mind changed'. For example, it's not 'open minded' to believe in ghosts, it's irrational. On the other hand, if you accept someone's point of view, and adopt it, based on a strong argument or evidence for it, even if you have to reject a preconception, that's open minded. That's how I see it, in any case.
bongi there's an excellent video from. . .I can't recall who, who goes into that in more detail. Open-mindedness is no good without critical thinking skills.
yes i agree with that pretty completely
yes but I also haven't seen behavior in you that would indicate that you're the type of vitriolic atheist who believes that religion is worthless and spirituality is unconditionally stupid
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T69TOuqaqXI&feature=player_embedded
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T69TOuqaqXI
edit: oops
oh dang it's by dawkins? that guy is a dick
Need some stuff designed or printed? I can help with that.
well that's what I'm referring to
that as people grow older they are more likely to go from die-hard atheist/physicalists (I don't know that term) to a more spiritual or at least less vitriolic point of view
Need some stuff designed or printed? I can help with that.
Shank is just saying there are people who believe in a certain thing vehemently for a long time then come to realise that maybe, just maybe, they weren't so right all along, and they shift their viewpoints accordingly.
edit: In this case the the "thing" is atheism or what have you.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Physicalist
I believe it's true of teenagers who take the beliefs on even if it's not "teenage rebellion"
critical thinking changes an awful lot between fifteen and thirty
I guess that plays a part in shaping your views.
Huh.
it's not a claim, it's an observation
nothing arrogant about an observation
Well, it is Shank we're talking about here.
Edit: I am so slow, that was responding to TB way back there
you're forming a hypothesis about how a vast group behaves based on localized anecdotes and your own presumably deep understanding of how critical thinking develops as you age, even past the age you yourself have attained
edit: i suppose you were merely sharing the anecdotes and speculating, you just had some forceful language goin' on
uh, no I'm not
I'm saying that most vitriolically atheist teenagers I know have become significantly less atheistic as they have grown older
there's no hypothesis about a vast group in there
Yes I see your point I suppose.