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Let's talk about rape culture.

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Posts

  • TubularLuggageTubularLuggage Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    Hachface wrote: »
    Hachface wrote: »

    All right. Well. If rape is so deeply condemned by our society, then why are rapes underreported, and why is the conviction rate for rape charges so low?

    Yes, because something sometimes goes unreported, it must mean our society actively encourages it.
    Can you hear yourself? Seriously, read your own sentence back to yourself there.

    A lot of car accidents go unreported too, and those aren't encouraged or acceptable either.
    It's condemned in the sense that any sane, stable person is completely against it.

    That's kind of a dodge. You would think that if sexual violence was condemned and taken seriously, there'd be a lot more support for women who have been raped, and the people accused of rape would be convicted more often. Why do you think women often don't report rapes?

    I don't know because it's probably different in each case. Society doesn't tend to look down on rape victims though; rather society tends to be very sympathetic towards them.
    As for why more rapists aren't convicted; though obviously a terrible crime, it can often be very difficult to prove. You can't throw a person in jail because "Come on, you just know this guy is guilty!". You need hard evidence, and sometimes there isn't any. Also, because it can be such a traumatizing experience, the victim is often not a reliable eye witness. It sounds terrible, but it's true.

    One thing that makes it very difficult to prove is people who have falsely claimed to have been raped when they weren't. I knew a guy in highschool whose ex-girlfriend claimed that he'd raped her after he broke up with her. It turned out that she was full of shit, and that he hadn't even been in town the night she claimed it had happened. There have also been cases where people will consent, but claim rape later to save face with their family. It's people like them that make it more difficult for real victims to prove lack of consent.

  • IncenjucarIncenjucar QA Tester -> Game Producer Seattle, WARegistered User regular
    edited October 2009
    I don't know because it's probably different in each case. Society doesn't tend to look down on rape victims though; rather society tends to be very sympathetic towards them.
    As for why more rapists aren't convicted; though obviously a terrible crime, it can often be very difficult to prove. You can't throw a person in jail because "Come on, you just know this guy is guilty!". You need hard evidence, and sometimes there isn't any. Also, because it can be such a traumatizing experience, the victim is often not a reliable eye witness. It sounds terrible, but it's true.

    Someone who has been raped is very likely to be put in the "damaged goods" category by those who are aware of it.

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  • CptHamiltonCptHamilton Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    Incenjucar wrote: »
    I think the bigger issue is sex-as-status, and sex-as-power.

    Yup. That's rape culture.

    I don't see how that follows. If having sex literally gave you status and power then sure, rape would be the means to the top, but sex-as-status and sex-as-power imply that the ability to cause desire give you status and power. You are powerful and famous if you can make many people want to have sex with you, which may not mean actually having sex with anyone. Prostitutes have a lot of sex but are neither famous nor powerful. An extremely attractive, seductive media personality could be a virgin and still be equally successful in modern, sex-focused American society.

    It only leads to rape if you assume that rape is a tool for men to get the sex that they want, rather than being a dominance crime performed by an unbalanced personality.

    OptimusZed wrote: »
    Jesus, people. This thread is like a running gunbattle with stupid bullets.
  • adytumadytum Registered User regular
    edited August 2011
    ...

    adytum on
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  • FeralFeral Who needs a medical license when you've got style? Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    Rape and sexual assault are still thankfully condemned by our culture.

    Not always. Sometimes it's played off for laughs. (Warning - TVTropes link. Don't click if you have things to do today.)

    I'd also argue that a lot of mainstream porn, particularly demeaning stuff like Bang Bros., treads uncomfortably close to rape. Yes, I recognize that there's a difference between demeaning sex and rape, but once you establish a schema that sex can still be fun even while the woman isn't enjoying it, you've broken down one of the psychological barriers against rape.

    So even though rape is explicitly condemned, I'd argue that there are enough mixed messages to warrant discussion of the topic.

    I recognize that sexual assault isn't applauded in the way we might applaud a home run or getting a new job, but that's not what we mean when we talk about rape culture. We're talking about a culture that treats rape victims with indifference, amusement, disbelief, or shame just enough to enable rapists to function.
    It's more a mix of poorly educated individuals and shameless unrealistic marketing colliding. You still have to be a fucking idiot, incredibly warped, or both, to think rape is acceptable. No intelligent, stable person is going to be led to rape someone by our culture.

    Well, yes, by definition a rapist is "warped." But they didn't become warped in a vacuum. If you're arguing that their culture didn't contribute to warping them, what did?

    every person who doesn't like an acquired taste always seems to think everyone who likes it is faking it. it should be an official fallacy.
    the "no true scotch, man" fallacy.
  • CptHamiltonCptHamilton Registered User regular
    edited October 2009

    Edit: Also, the above (and the post I was responding to) assumes that the rape happens as a man desiring sexual conquest. Most sexual assaults are about personal dominance, not sex. In that case the rapist is doing it completely because he's fucked in the head, not because society said any particularly thing about women or sex.

    It is true that sexual assault is about dominance. And when the cultural narrative is that men are dominant and women are passive, sex itself becomes about dominance.

    True, but women are being increasingly shown as dominant figures both in and out of sexual situations in modern culture. Yes there are a lot of songs about having sex with bitches, but there are a lot of songs by female vocalists about how they give or deny sex to men, too. There are increasingly many TV shows and movies which portray women as the figure of power in a sexual relationship.

    If cultural cues indicating that women should be submissive were the cause of sexual assaults then I would expect such assaults to be decreasing with the rise in popularity of media depicting women as strong, dominant individuals in positions of both sexual and non-sexual power.

    OptimusZed wrote: »
    Jesus, people. This thread is like a running gunbattle with stupid bullets.
  • ChanusChanus Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    If cultural cues indicating that women should be submissive were the cause of sexual assaults then I would expect such assaults to be decreasing

    Are they / Are they not?

  • lenore beadsmanlenore beadsman Registered User
    edited October 2009
    Okay some evidence for rape culture that might be more compelling to those of you who think that rape culture is somehow divorced from cultural narratives re: sex:

    Gender norms in our society are pretty stifling, and there are consequences for transgressing them. Men who do certain things--talk a certain way, dress a certain way, or are sexually penetrated, just as a few examples, have their masculinity called into question. This is because men are defined as not-women, and those are all qualities society ascribes to ladyfolk.

    Sex and sexuality are structured along gender lines. In general, the idea is that men ought to be aggressive about getting sex and women are supposed to be passive (does anyone watch Mad Men? In the episode before last, Betty told her daughter "You don't kiss boys. Boys kiss you").

    At the same time, there's this cultural idea that women are naturally sexy, and women's bodies are somehow private property. Most women will be whistled or hollered at on a busy street at some point in their lives. This sends the message that just by walking down the street, they are giving men permission to ogle their figure--and men get the message that women are there to be ogled. So this tempting/passive woman exists in the cultural narrative, and the role of men is to win her over. pickup artistry is a whole cottage industry built around the idea that men can trick or coerce sex out of women while trying to paint the endeavor as something other than deeply creepy.

    Men are supposed to collect conquests, and women are supposed to remain pure. Think of the cliche question "why is it that men who sleep around are studs and women who do the same are sluts?" This double standard reinforces the idea that men are supposed to take sex from women, and that sometimes no means yes.

  • IncenjucarIncenjucar QA Tester -> Game Producer Seattle, WARegistered User regular
    edited October 2009
    I don't see how that follows. If having sex literally gave you status and power then sure, rape would be the means to the top, but sex-as-status and sex-as-power imply that the ability to cause desire give you status and power. You are powerful and famous if you can make many people want to have sex with you, which may not mean actually having sex with anyone. Prostitutes have a lot of sex but are neither famous nor powerful. An extremely attractive, seductive media personality could be a virgin and still be equally successful in modern, sex-focused American society.

    It only leads to rape if you assume that rape is a tool for men to get the sex that they want, rather than being a dominance crime performed by an unbalanced personality.

    People take shortcuts. Rape can be something of a cheat code for people who play the game to win and not to have fun, if that terrible analogy makes any sense. When people feel a desire for power they might feel it is easier to seize it than to earn it.

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  • lenore beadsmanlenore beadsman Registered User
    edited October 2009
    adytum wrote: »

    How much support do you think there is? Besides rape counseling, rape support groups, etc., that are available in EVERY CITY OF ANY SIZE EVERYWHERE.

    Is this whole thread you trolling? Are you stopping to consider what you're writing?

    You're honestly asking why police have difficulty convicting people on a crime that, often, has no evidence of having occurred besides the testimony of the accuser? Or why women, having been the victim of an individually targeted crime, might not want to report it to the police, especially when there is little evidence of the actual crime?

    Jesus christ.

    Why don't women want to report the crime? People don't hesitate to report robberies.

  • MaceraMacera Registered User
    edited October 2009
    adytum wrote: »

    How much support do you think there is? Besides rape counseling, rape support groups, etc., that are available in EVERY CITY OF ANY SIZE EVERYWHERE.

    Is this whole thread you trolling? Are you stopping to consider what you're writing?

    You're honestly asking why police have difficulty convicting people on a crime that, often, has no evidence of having occurred besides the testimony of the accuser? Or why women, having been the victim of an individually targeted crime, might not want to report it to the police, especially when there is little evidence of the actual crime?

    Jesus christ.

    Why don't women want to report the crime? People don't hesitate to report robberies.

    They...those aren't really similar.

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  • ChanusChanus Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    adytum wrote: »

    How much support do you think there is? Besides rape counseling, rape support groups, etc., that are available in EVERY CITY OF ANY SIZE EVERYWHERE.

    Is this whole thread you trolling? Are you stopping to consider what you're writing?

    You're honestly asking why police have difficulty convicting people on a crime that, often, has no evidence of having occurred besides the testimony of the accuser? Or why women, having been the victim of an individually targeted crime, might not want to report it to the police, especially when there is little evidence of the actual crime?

    Jesus christ.

    Why don't women want to report the crime? People don't hesitate to report robberies.

    What's being stolen is a bit more "shameful" in the case of rape.


    (Note: I don't think it's shameful at all, but I've also never been a rape victim)

  • IncenjucarIncenjucar QA Tester -> Game Producer Seattle, WARegistered User regular
    edited October 2009
    This is also part of a larger issue of sexual exploitation. It has been long acceptable for men to basically guilt women into putting out - there is a whole genre of poetry spanning eras devoted to it. And, of course, once a girl has put out, she's suddenly not as interesting anymore because she has been "tarnished."

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  • TubularLuggageTubularLuggage Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    Sex and sexuality are structured along gender lines. In general, the idea is that men ought to be aggressive about getting sex and women are supposed to be passive (does anyone watch Mad Men? In the episode before last, Betty told her daughter "You don't kiss boys. Boys kiss you").
    You know that show is based in the 1960s, right? I'm not saying it was okay back then, but things have definitely changed since then.

  • scrivenerjonesscrivenerjones Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    adytum wrote: »
    You're honestly asking why police have difficulty convicting people on a crime that, often, has no evidence of having occurred besides the testimony of the accuser? Or why women, having been the victim of an individually targeted crime, might not want to report it to the police, especially when there is little evidence of the actual crime?

    the answer to both of these questions is 'because of the pervasive effects of rape culture', just fyi.

  • IncenjucarIncenjucar QA Tester -> Game Producer Seattle, WARegistered User regular
    edited October 2009
    You know that show is based in the 1960s, right? I'm not saying it was okay back then, but things have definitely changed since then.

    Never as much as we'd like to think

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  • adytumadytum Registered User regular
    edited August 2011
    ...

    adytum on
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  • ChanusChanus Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    Incenjucar wrote: »
    This is also part of a larger issue of sexual exploitation. It has been long acceptable for men to basically guilt women into putting out - there is a whole genre of poetry spanning eras devoted to it. And, of course, once a girl has put out, she's suddenly not as interesting anymore because she has been "tarnished."

    That really has absolutely nothing to do with rape.

  • FeralFeral Who needs a medical license when you've got style? Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    Sex and sexuality are structured along gender lines. In general, the idea is that men ought to be aggressive about getting sex and women are supposed to be passive (does anyone watch Mad Men? In the episode before last, Betty told her daughter "You don't kiss boys. Boys kiss you").

    In general, I agree with your overall point. However, I do want to point out that Mad Men is a bad example - it's a period piece; it's supposed to be about outmoded gender roles.

    In response to your post and Cpt's above, I'd also argue that starting with the notion that "sex is power" and then shifting power away from men to women doesn't actually cure anything, at least in the short term. By shifting power away from men, some men will react to the perception of powerlessness through violence.

    If "sex is power and men have the power" is the thesis, and "sex is power and women have the power" is the antithesis, then the synthesis is more sophisticated view of the interaction of sex and power. Sex should not necessarily imply power - neither having sex nor withholding it inherently implies that you are more powerful.

    every person who doesn't like an acquired taste always seems to think everyone who likes it is faking it. it should be an official fallacy.
    the "no true scotch, man" fallacy.
  • CptHamiltonCptHamilton Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    Incenjucar wrote: »
    I don't see how that follows. If having sex literally gave you status and power then sure, rape would be the means to the top, but sex-as-status and sex-as-power imply that the ability to cause desire give you status and power. You are powerful and famous if you can make many people want to have sex with you, which may not mean actually having sex with anyone. Prostitutes have a lot of sex but are neither famous nor powerful. An extremely attractive, seductive media personality could be a virgin and still be equally successful in modern, sex-focused American society.

    It only leads to rape if you assume that rape is a tool for men to get the sex that they want, rather than being a dominance crime performed by an unbalanced personality.

    People take shortcuts. Rape can be something of a cheat code for people who play the game to win and not to have fun, if that terrible analogy makes any sense. When people feel a desire for power they might feel it is easier to seize it than to earn it.

    But rapes are almost never about guys using a shortcut into a girl's pants. They are, as you said, about people seizing power that they feel they need but are otherwise lacking the ability to achieve. That has nothing to do with sex or sexualization. Even in the case of godawful fuckwads like the guys discussing the Pick-Up Artists culture thread of a while back, they admit that if a girl says no then that means no. Rapists are, almost universally, not just guys who really, really want sex. They're psychologically unbalanced individuals who are using a violent action to assert dominance and power over people whom they would otherwise perceive themselves as being subordinate to.

    OptimusZed wrote: »
    Jesus, people. This thread is like a running gunbattle with stupid bullets.
  • HeartlashHeartlash Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    Incenjucar wrote: »
    I don't see how that follows. If having sex literally gave you status and power then sure, rape would be the means to the top, but sex-as-status and sex-as-power imply that the ability to cause desire give you status and power. You are powerful and famous if you can make many people want to have sex with you, which may not mean actually having sex with anyone. Prostitutes have a lot of sex but are neither famous nor powerful. An extremely attractive, seductive media personality could be a virgin and still be equally successful in modern, sex-focused American society.

    It only leads to rape if you assume that rape is a tool for men to get the sex that they want, rather than being a dominance crime performed by an unbalanced personality.

    People take shortcuts. Rape can be something of a cheat code for people who play the game to win and not to have fun, if that terrible analogy makes any sense. When people feel a desire for power they might feel it is easier to seize it than to earn it.

    Did you really just imply that people look at rapists with respect? I know you didn't, and that you meant to imply that people may rape due to some misguided belief that it will give them "status". But seriously, do you think that people openly encourage that? Or that MOST people would do that in our society? Even CLOSE to most people?

    What the fuck is going on in this thread?

    TiSBcast.com - Home of This is Serious Business, a weekly roundtable podcast involving media, beer, and general merriment.
  • TubularLuggageTubularLuggage Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    Men are supposed to collect conquests, and women are supposed to remain pure. Think of the cliche question "why is it that men who sleep around are studs and women who do the same are sluts?" This double standard reinforces the idea that men are supposed to take sex from women, and that sometimes no means yes.
    I don't think that's as universally true as you'd think. Often men who sleep around a lot are seen more as manwhores, and others will assume that they have negative issues to be that way. Some may celebrate that kind of behavior, but many don't, and I'd say it's actually becoming less and less acceptable in our society.

  • IncenjucarIncenjucar QA Tester -> Game Producer Seattle, WARegistered User regular
    edited October 2009
    Chanus wrote: »
    Incenjucar wrote: »
    This is also part of a larger issue of sexual exploitation. It has been long acceptable for men to basically guilt women into putting out - there is a whole genre of poetry spanning eras devoted to it. And, of course, once a girl has put out, she's suddenly not as interesting anymore because she has been "tarnished."

    That really has absolutely nothing to do with rape.

    It is an example of how sexuality is viewed by some.

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  • lenore beadsmanlenore beadsman Registered User
    edited October 2009

    True, but women are being increasingly shown as dominant figures both in and out of sexual situations in modern culture. Yes there are a lot of songs about having sex with bitches, but there are a lot of songs by female vocalists about how they give or deny sex to men, too. There are increasingly many TV shows and movies which portray women as the figure of power in a sexual relationship.

    If cultural cues indicating that women should be submissive were the cause of sexual assaults then I would expect such assaults to be decreasing with the rise in popularity of media depicting women as strong, dominant individuals in positions of both sexual and non-sexual power.

    If a woman's power comes from denying sex to men, that just fits into the broader cultural narrative of women remaining "pure" while men are somehow naturally driven to want sex.

  • lenore beadsmanlenore beadsman Registered User
    edited October 2009
    Chanus wrote: »

    What's being stolen is a bit more "shameful" in the case of rape.


    (Note: I don't think it's shameful at all, but I've also never been a rape victim)

    My point is why is that more shameful (not from your perspective, but from society's? Why is it shameful for a woman to have been sexually violated? That is a symptom of rape culture.

  • adytumadytum Registered User regular
    edited August 2011
    ...

    adytum on
    etxvv5.jpg
  • IncenjucarIncenjucar QA Tester -> Game Producer Seattle, WARegistered User regular
    edited October 2009
    Heartlash wrote: »
    Did you really just imply that people look at rapists with respect? I know you didn't, and that you meant to imply that people may rape due to some misguided belief that it will give them "status". But seriously, do you think that people openly encourage that? Or that MOST people would do that in our society? Even CLOSE to most people?

    What the fuck is going on in this thread?

    I can see you are new to this kind of discourse.

    While certainly in some groups, people do brag about rape, people do not need to share their activities with others to feel that they have gained status from them. Not everyone needs to post their scores on leaderboards, as it were.

    As for the rest, don't imagine statements into what I have said. If I did not say it I did not mean it.

    freefallagentad_zps635a83ed.png
  • lenore beadsmanlenore beadsman Registered User
    edited October 2009
    Incenjucar wrote: »
    I don't see how that follows. If having sex literally gave you status and power then sure, rape would be the means to the top, but sex-as-status and sex-as-power imply that the ability to cause desire give you status and power. You are powerful and famous if you can make many people want to have sex with you, which may not mean actually having sex with anyone. Prostitutes have a lot of sex but are neither famous nor powerful. An extremely attractive, seductive media personality could be a virgin and still be equally successful in modern, sex-focused American society.

    It only leads to rape if you assume that rape is a tool for men to get the sex that they want, rather than being a dominance crime performed by an unbalanced personality.

    People take shortcuts. Rape can be something of a cheat code for people who play the game to win and not to have fun, if that terrible analogy makes any sense. When people feel a desire for power they might feel it is easier to seize it than to earn it.

    But rapes are almost never about guys using a shortcut into a girl's pants. They are, as you said, about people seizing power that they feel they need but are otherwise lacking the ability to achieve. That has nothing to do with sex or sexualization. Even in the case of godawful fuckwads like the guys discussing the Pick-Up Artists culture thread of a while back, they admit that if a girl says no then that means no. Rapists are, almost universally, not just guys who really, really want sex. They're psychologically unbalanced individuals who are using a violent action to assert dominance and power over people whom they would otherwise perceive themselves as being subordinate to.

    What do you think date rape is?

  • adytumadytum Registered User regular
    edited August 2011
    ...

    adytum on
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  • SheepSheep Registered User, __BANNED USERS
    edited October 2009
    Hachface wrote: »
    Sheep wrote: »
    We don't live in a "rape culture", but many live in a highly sexualized one.

    But really, I think what those kids did was terrible and is a result from the fairly selfish attitude about sex that many media outlets and the internet have kinda fostered.

    The bolded part--how is that not rape culture?

    Because having a selfish attitude about sex isn't rape?
    Not sure, was it in one of his movies? The only one's I've seen almost always involve a love story.

    I think he's referring to that one movie about a pathetic psychopath who has sex with a seriously impaired woman.
    All right. Well. If rape is so deeply condemned by our society, then why are rapes underreported, and why is the conviction rate for rape charges so low?

    They're underreported because rape is largely portrayed as a shameful and embarrassing experience and, from what I've come to understand, many people aren't willing to prolong the experience through the legal process.
    Why do you think women often don't report rapes?

    Along with the above, they're often hard to prove in events that aren't violent.
    One thing that makes it very difficult to prove is people who have falsely claimed to have been raped when they weren't. I knew a guy in highschool whose ex-girlfriend claimed that he'd raped her after he broke up with her. It turned out that she was full of shit, and that he hadn't even been in town the night she claimed it had happened. There have also been cases where people will consent, but claim rape later to save face with their family. It's people like them that make it more difficult for real victims to prove lack of consent.

    Same thing happened to my brother and I can't help but feel that some poor girl that really was harmed isn't going to be taken seriously because of that.
    Not always. Sometimes it's played off for laughs. (Warning - TVTropes link. Don't click if you have things to do today.)

    Rape isn't the only terrible thing used for comedic effect.


    What do you think date rape is?

    I would say date rape isn't a short cut. It's still violent. You're poisoning someone in order to subject them to your will.

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  • CptHamiltonCptHamilton Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    Feral wrote: »
    Sex and sexuality are structured along gender lines. In general, the idea is that men ought to be aggressive about getting sex and women are supposed to be passive (does anyone watch Mad Men? In the episode before last, Betty told her daughter "You don't kiss boys. Boys kiss you").

    In general, I agree with your overall point. However, I do want to point out that Mad Men is a bad example - it's a period piece; it's supposed to be about outmoded gender roles.

    In response to your post and Cpt's above, I'd also argue that starting with the notion that "sex is power" and then shifting power away from men to women doesn't actually cure anything, at least in the short term. By shifting power away from men, some men will react to the perception of powerlessness through violence.

    If "sex is power and men have the power" is the thesis, and "sex is power and women have the power" is the antithesis, then the synthesis is more sophisticated view of the interaction of sex and power. Sex should not necessarily imply power - neither having sex nor withholding it inherently implies that you are more powerful.


    I'm not sure that the modern cultural attitude toward sex is even accurately summed as "sex is power". Men are traditionally viewed as the powerful gender, but women are traditionally viewed as the arbiters of sexual congress. The man may have the power, but the women decide who gets sex. My point was that desirability is power in modern America. People want to be wanted. For their money, their influence, their connections, or their looks. The more desirable you are, the more powerful you are perceived as being. Sexual desirability is only a facet of that.

    My point with the shifting gender roles is that while women are being increasingly portrayed as sexual creatures (rather than a gender of people who view sex as an unpleasant necessity or tool) it is actually shifting towards a point of equality. Once men realize that women are, fundamentally, the same as they are in terms of sex and sexual desire it will no longer be taboo for women to initiate romantic encounters or make men assume that attractive women are unapproachable.

    OptimusZed wrote: »
    Jesus, people. This thread is like a running gunbattle with stupid bullets.
  • lenore beadsmanlenore beadsman Registered User
    edited October 2009
    Incenjucar wrote: »
    Chanus wrote: »
    Incenjucar wrote: »
    This is also part of a larger issue of sexual exploitation. It has been long acceptable for men to basically guilt women into putting out - there is a whole genre of poetry spanning eras devoted to it. And, of course, once a girl has put out, she's suddenly not as interesting anymore because she has been "tarnished."

    That really has absolutely nothing to do with rape.

    It is an example of how sexuality is viewed by some.

    Wait what? Coercion has nothing to do with rape?

  • IncenjucarIncenjucar QA Tester -> Game Producer Seattle, WARegistered User regular
    edited October 2009
    adytum wrote: »
    Hopefully you realize that rape fantasies are one of the more common fantasies.. of women.

    It is very likely this is a result of the above issues.

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  • ChanusChanus Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    Chanus wrote: »

    What's being stolen is a bit more "shameful" in the case of rape.


    (Note: I don't think it's shameful at all, but I've also never been a rape victim)

    My point is why is that more shameful (not from your perspective, but from society's? Why is it shameful for a woman to have been sexually violated? That is a symptom of rape culture.

    Society doesn't shame the victim, the victim shames him/herself.

    It's shame and fear brought on by feelings of weakness and powerlessness, and fear of retribution (if they "tell").

  • elkataselkatas Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    Hachface wrote: »
    And what is it, exactly, that makes a group of 15 boys believe that witnessing a brutal gang rape is not something that merits reporting to the police?

    I don't know the specifics of this case, but you might be looking at very grim case of "Social Proof" effect. Psychology has proven that if people don't know what they should do, they sub-consciously takes cue for correct behaviour from others around them. For example, go outside and look up for 15 mins. Nobody cares. Do with that your two friends, and within 15 mins, street should be blocked because everyone is looking up, for no logical reason whatsoever.

    In early 90's, they actually did research about heart attacks, and how large crowds would respond them. If "heart-attack" happened when there was only two people around, help was given 95 percent of time. If there was ten people around, help was given only 5 percent of time or something like that. This is unfortunately true in my experience, and it actually main reason why I jump into every situation, sometimes even humiliating myself. I know that if I don't help, nobody else won't.

    In this rape case, there was two potential ways for this effect to happen, but without knowing specific details about how crowd acted, it is hard to say. Perhaps some stupid drunk douches started to cheer, and this social effect was stamped into others. Other possibility is that some of the boys panicked and that stamped into others.

    Hypnotically inclined.
  • ChanusChanus Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    Incenjucar wrote: »
    Chanus wrote: »
    Incenjucar wrote: »
    This is also part of a larger issue of sexual exploitation. It has been long acceptable for men to basically guilt women into putting out - there is a whole genre of poetry spanning eras devoted to it. And, of course, once a girl has put out, she's suddenly not as interesting anymore because she has been "tarnished."

    That really has absolutely nothing to do with rape.

    It is an example of how sexuality is viewed by some.

    Wait what? Coercion has nothing to do with rape?

    Writing a love poem to get in a woman's pants and then experiencing the "old cow" phenomenon is not anywhere in the ballpark of rape.

  • Modern ManModern Man Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    Hachface wrote: »
    Hachface wrote: »

    All right. Well. If rape is so deeply condemned by our society, then why are rapes underreported, and why is the conviction rate for rape charges so low?

    Yes, because something sometimes goes unreported, it must mean our society actively encourages it.
    Can you hear yourself? Seriously, read your own sentence back to yourself there.

    A lot of car accidents go unreported too, and those aren't encouraged or acceptable either.
    It's condemned in the sense that any sane, stable person is completely against it.

    That's kind of a dodge. You would think that if sexual violence was condemned and taken seriously, there'd be a lot more support for women who have been raped, and the people accused of rape would be convicted more often. Why do you think women often don't report rapes?
    I can't speak as to why rape victims don't report the assaults more often.

    But, in terms of getting convictions, keep in mind most rapes involve a person that the victim knows. Given that fact, making the legal case for rape in such a situation is difficult. If it comes down to a question of "he said, she said" when it comes to the question of consent (lack of which is a requirement for rape to occur), it is fairly easy for a defense counsel to establish reasonable doubt. That is, in cases where the victim and alleged rapist knew each other and there is no clear evidence of force or the threat thereof, it is tough to get a conviction.

    Aetian Jupiter - 41 Gunslinger - The Old Republic
    Rigorous Scholarship

  • FeralFeral Who needs a medical license when you've got style? Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    Rapists are, almost universally, not just guys who really, really want sex. They're psychologically unbalanced individuals who are using a violent action to assert dominance and power over people whom they would otherwise perceive themselves as being subordinate to.

    This is an oversimplification. Studies on rapists have shown that they are more likely to be sexually stimulated by images of forced sex, and that they have a harder time distinguishing between (staged) images of forced sex and images of consensual sex.

    Yes, the overriding motivation was power, but there remains the question of why they didn't simply beat the victim, rather than rape the victim. Going that extra step from physical violence to rape requires a sexual motivation.

    Also, a significant minority of rapists - particularly in date rape - did not consider what they were doing as rape. They believed that the woman would have wanted it had she been conscious/sober.

    every person who doesn't like an acquired taste always seems to think everyone who likes it is faking it. it should be an official fallacy.
    the "no true scotch, man" fallacy.
  • MaceraMacera Registered User
    edited October 2009
    adytum wrote: »
    Hopefully you realize that rape fantasies are one of the more common fantasies.. of women.

    [citation needed]

    xet8c.gif
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