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Let's talk about rape culture.

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Posts

  • HachfaceHachface Registered User regular
    Chanus wrote: »
    lenore beadsman wrote: »
    Chanus wrote: »

    What's being stolen is a bit more "shameful" in the case of rape.


    (Note: I don't think it's shameful at all, but I've also never been a rape victim)

    My point is why is that more shameful (not from your perspective, but from society's? Why is it shameful for a woman to have been sexually violated? That is a symptom of rape culture.

    Society doesn't shame the victim, the victim shames him/herself.

    It's shame and fear brought on by feelings of weakness and powerlessness, and fear of retribution (if they "tell").

    All right. Where does the victim get the idea in her head that she ought to be ashamed? Do you think there is a gene responsible for being ashamed of being raped?

    Listen to History Lessons With Caleb, Mike & Terry, a podcast for the ill-informed.
    • Agree Awesome
  • IncenjucarIncenjucar Registered User regular
    lenore beadsman wrote: »
    Wait what? Coercion has nothing to do with rape?

    :?

    Dishonorable activity to obtain sex for the sake of sex and not for the sake of mutual benefit. Things exist in a range.

    freefallagent.jpg
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  • scrivenerjonesscrivenerjones Registered User regular
    Hey yall, read this post. you can follow the link for supporting links for basically everything mentioned. rape culture is real and it is terrifying.
    http://shakespearessister.blogspot.com/2009/10/rape-culture-101.html


    [Trigger warning.]

    Frequently, I receive requests to provide a definition of the term "rape culture." I've referred people to the Wikipedia entry on rape culture, which is pretty good, and I like the definition provided in Transforming a Rape Culture:

    "A rape culture is a complex of beliefs that encourages male sexual aggression and supports violence against women. It is a society where violence is seen as sexy and sexuality as violent. In a rape culture, women perceive a continuum of threatened violence that ranges from sexual remarks to sexual touching to rape itself. A rape culture condones physical and emotional terrorism against women as the norm."

    In a rape culture both men and women assume that sexual violence is a fact of life, inevitable as death or taxes. This violence, however, is neither biologically nor divinely ordained. Much of what we accept as inevitable is in fact the expression of values and attitudes that can change.

    But my correspondents—whether they are dewy noobs just coming to feminism, advanced feminists looking for a source, or disbelievers in the existence of the rape culture—always seem to be looking for something more comprehensive and less abstract: What is the rape culture? What are its borders? What does it look like and sound like and feel like?

    It is not a definition for which they're looking; not really. It's a description. It's something substantive enough to reach out and touch, in all its ugly, heaving, menacing grotesquery.

    Rape culture is encouraging male sexual aggression. Rape culture is regarding violence as sexy and sexuality as violent. Rape culture is treating rape as a compliment, as the unbridled passion stirred in a healthy man by a beautiful woman, making irresistible the urge to rip open her bodice or slam her against a wall, or a wrought-iron fence, or a car hood, or pull her by her hair, or shove her onto a bed, or any one of a million other images of fight-fucking in movies and television shows and on the covers of romance novels that convey violent urges are inextricably linked with (straight) sexuality.

    Rape culture is treating straight sexuality as the norm. Rape culture is lumping queer sexuality into nonconsensual sexual practices like pedophilia and bestiality. Rape culture is privileging heterosexuality because ubiquitous imagery of two adults of the same-sex engaging in egalitarian partnerships without gender-based dominance and submission undermines (erroneous) biological rationales for the rape culture's existence.

    Rape culture is rape being used as a weapon, a tool of war and genocide and oppression. Rape culture is rape being used as a corrective to "cure" queer women. Rape culture is a militarized culture and "the natural product of all wars, everywhere, at all times, in all forms."

    Rape culture is 1 in 33 men being sexually assaulted in their lifetimes. Rape culture is encouraging men to use the language of rape to establish dominance over one another ("I'll make you my bitch"). Rape culture is making rape a ubiquitous part of male-exclusive bonding. Rape culture is ignoring the cavernous need for men's prison reform in part because the threat of being raped in prison is considered an acceptable deterrent to committing crime, and the threat only works if actual men are actually being raped.

    Rape culture is 1 in 6 women being sexually assaulted in their lifetimes. Rape culture is not even talking about the reality that many women are sexually assaulted multiple times in their lives. Rape culture is the way in which the constant threat of sexual assault affects women's daily movements. Rape culture is telling girls and women to be careful about what you wear, how you wear it, how you carry yourself, where you walk, when you walk there, with whom you walk, whom you trust, what you do, where you do it, with whom you do it, what you drink, how much you drink, whether you make eye contact, if you're alone, if you're with a stranger, if you're in a group, if you're in a group of strangers, if it's dark, if the area is unfamiliar, if you're carrying something, how you carry it, what kind of shoes you're wearing in case you have to run, what kind of purse you carry, what jewelry you wear, what time it is, what street it is, what environment it is, how many people you sleep with, what kind of people you sleep with, who your friends are, to whom you give your number, who's around when the delivery guy comes, to get an apartment where you can see who's at the door before they can see you, to check before you open the door to the delivery guy, to own a dog or a dog-sound-making machine, to get a roommate, to take self-defense, to always be alert always pay attention always watch your back always be aware of your surroundings and never let your guard down for a moment lest you be sexually assaulted and if you are and didn't follow all the rules it's your fault.

    Rape culture is victim-blaming. Rape culture is a judge blaming a child for her own rape. Rape culture is a minister blaming his child victims. Rape culture is accusing a child of enjoying being held hostage, raped, and tortured. Rape culture is spending enormous amounts of time finding any reason at all that a victim can be blamed for hir own rape.

    Rape culture is judges banning the use of the word rape in the courtroom. Rape culture is the media using euphemisms for sexual assault. Rape culture is stories about rape being featured in the Odd News.

    Rape culture is tasking victims with the burden of rape prevention. Rape culture is encouraging women to take self-defense as though that is the only solution required to preventing rape. Rape culture is admonishing women to "learn common sense" or "be more responsible" or "be aware of barroom risks" or "avoid these places" or "don't dress this way," and failing to admonish men to not rape.

    Rape culture is "nothing" being the most frequent answer to a question about what people have been formally taught about rape.

    Rape culture is boys under 10 years old knowing how to rape.

    Rape culture is the idea that only certain people rape—and only certain people get raped. Rape culture is ignoring that the thing about rapists is that they rape people. They rape people who are strong and people who are weak, people who are smart and people who are dumb, people who fight back and people who submit just to get it over with, people who are sluts and people who are prudes, people who rich and people who are poor, people who are tall and people who are short, people who are fat and people who are thin, people who are blind and people who are sighted, people who are deaf and people who can hear, people of every race and shape and size and ability and circumstance.

    Rape culture is the narrative that sex workers can't be raped. Rape culture is the assertion that wives can't be raped. Rape culture is the contention that only nice girls can be raped.

    Rape culture is refusing to acknowledge that the only thing that the victim of every rapist shares in common is bad fucking luck. Rape culture is refusing to acknowledge that the only thing a person can do to avoid being raped is never be in the same room as a rapist. Rape culture is avoiding talking about what an absurdly unreasonable expectation that is, since rapists don't announce themselves or wear signs or glow purple.

    Rape culture is people meant to protect you raping you instead—like parents, teachers, doctors, ministers, cops, soldiers, self-defense instructors.

    Rape culture is a serial rapist being appointed to a federal panel that makes decisions regarding women's health.

    Rape culture is a ruling that says women cannot withdraw consent once sex commences.

    Rape culture is a collective understanding about classifications of rapists: The "normal" rapist (whose crime is most likely to be dismissed with a "boys will be boys" sort of jocular apologia) is the man who forces himself on attractive women, women his age in fine health and form, whose crime is disturbingly understandable to his male defenders. The "real sickos" are the men who go after children, old ladies, the disabled, accident victims languishing in comas—the sort of people who can't fight back, whose rape is difficult to imagine as titillating, unlike the rape of "pretty girls," so easily cast in a fight-fuck fantasy of squealing and squirming and eventual relenting to the "flattery" of being raped.

    Rape culture is the insistence on trying to distinguish between different kinds of rape via the use of terms like "gray rape" or "date rape."

    Rape culture is pervasive narratives about rape that exist despite evidence to the contrary. Rape culture is pervasive imagery of stranger rape, even though women are three times more likely to be raped by someone they know than a stranger, and nine times more likely to be raped in their home, the home of someone they know, or anywhere else than being raped on the street, making what is commonly referred to as "date rape" by far the most prevalent type of rape. Rape culture is pervasive insistence that false reports are common, although they are less common (1.6%) than false reports of auto theft (2.6%). Rape culture is pervasive claims that women make rape accusations willy-nilly, when 61% of rapes remain unreported.

    Rape culture is the pervasive narrative that there is a "typical" way to behave after being raped, instead of the acknowledgment that responses to rape are as varied as its victims, that, immediately following a rape, some women go into shock; some are lucid; some are angry; some are ashamed; some are stoic; some are erratic; some want to report it; some don't; some will act out; some will crawl inside themselves; some will have healthy sex lives; some never will again.

    Rape culture is the pervasive narrative that a rape victim who reports hir rape is readily believed and well-supported, instead of acknowledging that reporting a rape is a huge personal investment, a difficult process that can be embarrassing, shameful, hurtful, frustrating, and too often unfulfilling. Rape culture is ignoring that there is very little incentive to report a rape; it's a terrible experience with a small likelihood of seeing justice served.

    Rape culture is hospitals that won't do rape kits, disbelieving law enforcement, unmotivated prosecutors, hostile judges, victim-blaming juries, and paltry sentencing.

    Rape culture is the fact that higher incidents of rape tend to correlate with lower conviction rates.

    Rape culture is silence around rape in the national discourse, and in rape victims' homes. Rape culture is treating surviving rape as something of which to be ashamed. Rape culture is families torn apart because of rape allegations that are disbelieved or ignored or sunk to the bottom of a deep, dark sea in an iron vault of secrecy and silence.

    Rape culture is the objectification of women, which is part of a dehumanizing process that renders consent irrelevant. Rape culture is treating women's bodies like public property. Rape culture is street harassment and groping on public transportation and equating raped women's bodies to a man walking around with valuables hanging out of his pockets. Rape culture is most men being so far removed from the threat of rape that invoking property theft is evidently the closest thing many of them can imagine to being forcibly subjected to a sexual assault.

    Rape culture is treating 13-year-old girls like trophies for men regarded as great artists.

    Rape culture is ignoring the way in which professional environments that treat sexual access to female subordinates as entitlements of successful men can be coercive and compromise enthusiastic consent.

    Rape culture is a convicted rapist getting a standing ovation at Cannes, a cameo in a hit movie, and a career resurgence in which he can joke about how he hates seeing people get hurt.

    Rape culture is when running dogfights is said to elicit more outrage than raping a woman would.

    Rape culture is blurred lines between persistence and coercion. Rape culture is treating diminished capacity to consent as the natural path to sexual activity.

    Rape culture is pretending that non-physical sexual assaults, like peeping tomming, is totally unrelated to brutal and physical sexual assaults, rather than viewing them on a continuum of sexual assault.

    Rape culture is diminishing the gravity of any sexual assault, attempted sexual assault, or culture of actual or potential coercion in any way.

    Rape culture is using the word "rape" to describe something that has been done to you other than a forced or coerced sex act. Rape culture is saying things like "That ATM raped me with a huge fee" or "The IRS raped me on my taxes."

    Rape culture is rape being used as entertainment, in movies and television shows and books and in video games.

    Rape culture is television shows and movies leaving rape out of situations where it would be a present and significant threat in real life.

    Rape culture is Amazon offering to locate "rape" products for you.

    Rape culture is rape jokes. Rape culture is rape jokes on t-shirts, rape jokes in college newspapers, rape jokes in soldiers' home videos, rape jokes on the radio, rape jokes on news broadcasts, rape jokes in magazines, rape jokes in viral videos, rape jokes in promotions for children's movies, rape jokes on Page Six (and again!), rape jokes on the funny pages, rape jokes on TV shows, rape jokes on the campaign trail, rape jokes on Halloween, rape jokes in online content by famous people, rape jokes in online content by non-famous people, rape jokes in headlines, rape jokes onstage at clubs, rape jokes in politics, rape jokes in one-woman shows, rape jokes in print campaigns, rape jokes in movies, rape jokes in cartoons, rape jokes in nightclubs, rape jokes on MTV, rape jokes on late-night chat shows, rape jokes in tattoos, rape jokes in stand-up comedy, rape jokes on websites, rape jokes at awards shows, rape jokes in online contests, rape jokes in movie trailers, rape jokes on the sides of buses, rape jokes on cultural institutions…

    Rape culture is people objecting to the detritus of the rape culture being called oversensitive, rather than people who perpetuate the rape culture being regarded as not sensitive enough.

    Rape culture is the myriad ways in which rape is tacitly and overtly abetted and encouraged having saturated every corner of our culture so thoroughly that people can't easily wrap their heads around what the rape culture actually is.

    That's hardly everything. It's merely the tip of an unfathomable iceberg.

    • Agree Awesome
  • TubularLuggageTubularLuggage Registered User regular
    lenore beadsman wrote: »
    CptHamilton wrote: »

    True, but women are being increasingly shown as dominant figures both in and out of sexual situations in modern culture. Yes there are a lot of songs about having sex with bitches, but there are a lot of songs by female vocalists about how they give or deny sex to men, too. There are increasingly many TV shows and movies which portray women as the figure of power in a sexual relationship.

    If cultural cues indicating that women should be submissive were the cause of sexual assaults then I would expect such assaults to be decreasing with the rise in popularity of media depicting women as strong, dominant individuals in positions of both sexual and non-sexual power.

    If a woman's power comes from denying sex to men, that just fits into the broader cultural narrative of women remaining "pure" while men are somehow naturally driven to want sex.

    Or it's, you know, because men typically have a more active sex drive than women. It has nothing to do with purity; it's about one person denying something the other person wants more than they do to gain leverage. People do that with all sorts of things, not just sex.

    • Agree Awesome
  • HachfaceHachface Registered User regular
    Modern Man wrote: »
    But, in terms of getting convictions, keep in mind most rapes involve a person that the victim knows. Given that fact, making the legal case for rape in such a situation is difficult. If it comes down to a question of "he said, she said" when it comes to the question of consent (lack of which is a requirement for rape to occur), it is fairly easy for a defense counsel to establish reasonable doubt. That is, in cases where the victim and alleged rapist knew each other and there is no clear evidence of force or the threat thereof, it is tough to get a conviction.

    This is all true, and I addressed it in the OP. I remain incredulous, however, that this alone would account for 94% of rape charges ending without conviction.

    Listen to History Lessons With Caleb, Mike & Terry, a podcast for the ill-informed.
    • Agree Awesome
  • IncenjucarIncenjucar Registered User regular
    Hachface wrote: »
    All right. Where does the victim get the idea in her head that she ought to be ashamed? Do you think there is a gene responsible for being ashamed of being raped?

    People tend to get stereotyped as damaged goods after being raped.

    Like divorcées.

    --

    Of course, a lot of this thread doesn't touch very much on rape by family and such.

    freefallagent.jpg
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  • enlightenedbumenlightenedbum Registered User regular
    Hachface wrote: »
    Chanus wrote: »
    lenore beadsman wrote: »
    Chanus wrote: »

    What's being stolen is a bit more "shameful" in the case of rape.


    (Note: I don't think it's shameful at all, but I've also never been a rape victim)

    My point is why is that more shameful (not from your perspective, but from society's? Why is it shameful for a woman to have been sexually violated? That is a symptom of rape culture.

    Society doesn't shame the victim, the victim shames him/herself.

    It's shame and fear brought on by feelings of weakness and powerlessness, and fear of retribution (if they "tell").

    All right. Where does the victim get the idea in her head that she ought to be ashamed? Do you think there is a gene responsible for being ashamed of being raped?

    Also the main defense used for accused rapists is that the victim was a whore so obviously would have said yes and her claiming she said no can't possible be true.

    My cousin made this game: Gem Pop. It's legitimately fun, particularly for people who enjoy Bejewled, Dr. Mario, Tetris, etc. kinds of games. Only two bucks! If you try it out, PM me with what you think of it.
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  • ChanusChanus Registered User regular
    Hachface wrote: »
    All right. Where does the victim get the idea in her head that she ought to be ashamed? Do you think there is a gene responsible for being ashamed of being raped?

    Victim's shame first, due to socially instituted... er... memes? (for lack of a better word)

    Not the other way around, where society actively shames the victim.

    Feck, shite, feck, shite, feck, shite, arse!
    Sarksus wrote: »
    Chanus take my quote out of your signature anyway. It's out of context and makes people think I'm afraid or hate vaginas!
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  • adytumadytum Registered User regular
    ...

    adytum on
    etxvv5.jpg
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  • FeralFeral Who needs a medical license when you've got style? Registered User regular
    adytum wrote: »
    Feral wrote: »

    I'd also argue that a lot of mainstream porn, particularly demeaning stuff like Bang Bros., treads uncomfortably close to rape. Yes, I recognize that there's a difference between demeaning sex and rape, but once you establish a schema that sex can still be fun even while the woman isn't enjoying it, you've broken down one of the psychological barriers against rape.

    So even though rape is explicitly condemned, I'd argue that there are enough mixed messages to warrant discussion of the topic.

    Hopefully you realize that rape fantasies are one of the more common fantasies.. of women.

    Sure? That's not a counterargument.

    I am comforted by Richard Dawkins’ theory of memes. Those are mental units: thoughts, ideas, gestures, notions, songs, beliefs, rhymes, ideals, teachings, sayings, phrases, clichés that move from mind to mind as genes move from body to body. After a lifetime of writing, teaching, broadcasting and telling too many jokes, I will leave behind more memes than many. They will all also eventually die, but so it goes. - Roger Ebert, I Do Not Fear Death
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  • CptHamiltonCptHamilton Registered User regular
    lenore beadsman wrote: »
    CptHamilton wrote: »
    But rapes are almost never about guys using a shortcut into a girl's pants. They are, as you said, about people seizing power that they feel they need but are otherwise lacking the ability to achieve. That has nothing to do with sex or sexualization. Even in the case of godawful fuckwads like the guys discussing the Pick-Up Artists culture thread of a while back, they admit that if a girl says no then that means no. Rapists are, almost universally, not just guys who really, really want sex. They're psychologically unbalanced individuals who are using a violent action to assert dominance and power over people whom they would otherwise perceive themselves as being subordinate to.

    What do you think date rape is?

    I think that date rape is, in most cases, the same as any other rape. Men don't go on dates with a pocket full of ruphies (sp?) thinking, "Well, I'll just take these along in case things go badly." Date rapists are the same twisted individuals as jump-you-in-the-parking-lot rapists, only not quite as incapable of social interaction since they are still sufficiently savvy to get their target into a private situation before raping them.

    Note that I'm not talking here about men who take advantage of drunk women or cases were both parties are impaired. Those are problems and forms of rape, but they're a whole other kettle of fish from pre-meditated date (or otherwise) rapists.

    OptimusZed wrote: »
    Jesus, people. This thread is like a running gunbattle with stupid bullets.
    • Agree Awesome
  • IncenjucarIncenjucar Registered User regular
    TubularLuggage wrote: »
    Or it's, you know, because men typically have a more active sex drive than women.

    This is actually something of a myth.

    freefallagent.jpg
    • Agree Awesome
  • TubularLuggageTubularLuggage Registered User regular
    Hachface wrote: »
    Chanus wrote: »
    lenore beadsman wrote: »
    Chanus wrote: »

    What's being stolen is a bit more "shameful" in the case of rape.


    (Note: I don't think it's shameful at all, but I've also never been a rape victim)

    My point is why is that more shameful (not from your perspective, but from society's? Why is it shameful for a woman to have been sexually violated? That is a symptom of rape culture.

    Society doesn't shame the victim, the victim shames him/herself.

    It's shame and fear brought on by feelings of weakness and powerlessness, and fear of retribution (if they "tell").

    All right. Where does the victim get the idea in her head that she ought to be ashamed? Do you think there is a gene responsible for being ashamed of being raped?

    It's usually more out of fear than shame. Typically, when someone is victim of a traumatic event, they want to avoid anything to do with that sort of thing to some degree. Most often, it's because psychologically they don't want to deal with it, and don't want to relive it which they no doubt would have to during a court case. There's also the fear, founded or unfounded, that the rapist could come after them.

    • Agree Awesome
  • ChanusChanus Registered User regular
    TubularLuggage wrote: »
    Or it's, you know, because men typically have a more active sex drive than women.

    I'm not entirely sure that's actually true... unless you mean "displayed" by "active".

    Feck, shite, feck, shite, feck, shite, arse!
    Sarksus wrote: »
    Chanus take my quote out of your signature anyway. It's out of context and makes people think I'm afraid or hate vaginas!
    • Agree Awesome
  • adytumadytum Registered User regular
    ...

    adytum on
    etxvv5.jpg
    • Agree Awesome
  • MaceraMacera Registered User
    adytum wrote: »
    Macera wrote: »
    adytum wrote: »
    Hopefully you realize that rape fantasies are one of the more common fantasies.. of women.

    [citation needed]
    Key comparisons were made regarding type of sample, context, and item wording. Community and student samples would be expected to differ somewhat on age, educational level, and perhaps on socioeconomic status (SES). Table 1 indicates that estimates of how many women have had rape fantasies are comparable for the community and student samples. Community estimates ranged from 31% to 49%, while student samples ranged from 31% to 57%. With regard to context, estimates of ever having rape fantasies with context unspecified show a range of 31% to 57%, while estimates for rape fantasies during intercourse or other sexual activities are comparable, ranging from 36% to 49%. With the possible exception of rape fantasy during masturbation, context does not appear to be a major factor. The wording of the rape fantasy item did not appear to affect results. Studies that used a variation of "overpowered or forced" showed a range of 31% to 55%, while those using the more explicit wording of "rape" ranged from 34% to 57%.

    http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m2372/is_1_45/ai_n24383385/

    Well that single study sure has me convinced that every single woman wants to be raped!

    Putting aside sarcasm, a person having a fantasy about something happening doesn't mean that they want it to happen to them in real life.

    xet8c.gif
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  • ZombiemamboZombiemambo Registered User regular
    Rape culture is 1 in 33 men being sexually assaulted in their lifetimes. Rape culture is encouraging men to use the language of rape to establish dominance over one another ("I'll make you my bitch").

    Didn't this mostly originate from prisons, where rape culture is both real and prevalent anyway?

    JKKaAGp.png
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  • GungHoGungHo Registered User regular
    Incenjucar wrote: »
    TubularLuggage wrote: »
    I don't know because it's probably different in each case. Society doesn't tend to look down on rape victims though; rather society tends to be very sympathetic towards them.
    As for why more rapists aren't convicted; though obviously a terrible crime, it can often be very difficult to prove. You can't throw a person in jail because "Come on, you just know this guy is guilty!". You need hard evidence, and sometimes there isn't any. Also, because it can be such a traumatizing experience, the victim is often not a reliable eye witness. It sounds terrible, but it's true.
    Someone who has been raped is very likely to be put in the "damaged goods" category by those who are aware of it.
    Those people who do so need to be flogged.

    "Adios, mofo" -- TX Gov Rick Perry (R)
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  • elkataselkatas Registered User regular
    Incenjucar wrote: »
    This is actually something of a myth.

    From what I have read about female psychology, it is not a myth. But it is still very cheap excuse.

    Hypnotically inclined.
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  • LeitnerLeitner Registered User regular
    Hachface wrote: »
    Modern Man wrote: »
    But, in terms of getting convictions, keep in mind most rapes involve a person that the victim knows. Given that fact, making the legal case for rape in such a situation is difficult. If it comes down to a question of "he said, she said" when it comes to the question of consent (lack of which is a requirement for rape to occur), it is fairly easy for a defense counsel to establish reasonable doubt. That is, in cases where the victim and alleged rapist knew each other and there is no clear evidence of force or the threat thereof, it is tough to get a conviction.

    This is all true, and I addressed it in the OP. I remain incredulous, however, that this alone would account for 94% of rape charges ending without conviction.

    I've read the conviction rate of murder is actually lower (The Times).

    I'll see if I can dig up the article.

    • Agree Awesome
  • HachfaceHachface Registered User regular
    Zombiemambo wrote: »
    Rape culture is 1 in 33 men being sexually assaulted in their lifetimes. Rape culture is encouraging men to use the language of rape to establish dominance over one another ("I'll make you my bitch").

    Didn't this mostly originate from prisons, where rape culture is both real and prevalent anyway?

    Did you stop reading right after that part? It talks quite a bit about prison rape.

    Listen to History Lessons With Caleb, Mike & Terry, a podcast for the ill-informed.
    • Agree Awesome
  • HachfaceHachface Registered User regular
    Leitner wrote: »
    Hachface wrote: »
    Modern Man wrote: »
    But, in terms of getting convictions, keep in mind most rapes involve a person that the victim knows. Given that fact, making the legal case for rape in such a situation is difficult. If it comes down to a question of "he said, she said" when it comes to the question of consent (lack of which is a requirement for rape to occur), it is fairly easy for a defense counsel to establish reasonable doubt. That is, in cases where the victim and alleged rapist knew each other and there is no clear evidence of force or the threat thereof, it is tough to get a conviction.

    This is all true, and I addressed it in the OP. I remain incredulous, however, that this alone would account for 94% of rape charges ending without conviction.

    I've read the conviction rate of murder is actually lower (The Times).

    I'll see if I can dig up the article.

    I'd be surprised, but hey. If you can prove it.

    Listen to History Lessons With Caleb, Mike & Terry, a podcast for the ill-informed.
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  • adytumadytum Registered User regular
    ...

    adytum on
    etxvv5.jpg
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  • flamebroiledchickenflamebroiledchicken Registered User regular
    Here's a billboard I saw in Vegas:

    sexist_vegas_billboard.jpg

    In case you can't tell, it's a man's hand cramming a disco ball into a woman's mouth, and the words "Take It All In".

    Yeah, it's a rape culture.

    • Agree Awesome
  • ChanusChanus Registered User regular
    TubularLuggage wrote: »
    It's usually more out of fear than shame. Typically, when someone is victim of a traumatic event, they want to avoid anything to do with that sort of thing to some degree. Most often, it's because psychologically they don't want to deal with it, and don't want to relive it which they no doubt would have to during a court case. There's also the fear, founded or unfounded, that the rapist could come after them.

    This, pretty much. I had a girlfriend once who was raped while I was out of town (thank goodness not violently, at least). She didn't want to talk about it at all, to the point of hysterics and tears over very minor things. She never pressed charges even though she knew the guy (and never told me who it was for fear of exposing what happened and what I'd do to him).

    People don't just hop back on their feet after being victimized like, "Whelp! Tomorrow's another day, golly gee!" There is often severe psychological trauma involved.

    Feck, shite, feck, shite, feck, shite, arse!
    Sarksus wrote: »
    Chanus take my quote out of your signature anyway. It's out of context and makes people think I'm afraid or hate vaginas!
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  • ZombiemamboZombiemambo Registered User regular
    Hachface wrote: »
    Zombiemambo wrote: »
    Rape culture is 1 in 33 men being sexually assaulted in their lifetimes. Rape culture is encouraging men to use the language of rape to establish dominance over one another ("I'll make you my bitch").

    Didn't this mostly originate from prisons, where rape culture is both real and prevalent anyway?

    Did you stop reading right after that part? It talks quite a bit about prison rape.

    I did, actually :P Just curious as to why they try to point that out as being something very serious (the talk, not the act) when it's usually white guys trying to sound like they're tough.

    JKKaAGp.png
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  • CptHamiltonCptHamilton Registered User regular
    scrivenerjones wrote: »
    Hey yall, read this post. you can follow the link for supporting links for basically everything mentioned. rape culture is real and it is terrifying.
    http://shakespearessister.blogspot.com/2009/10/rape-culture-101.html
    Spoiler:

    There are a few good points about modern culture in there but it's full of so many completely over-the-top, BS statements that I can't in good conscious endorse it. Rape culture is treating straight sex as the norm? Straight sex is the norm. Whether you consider homosexuality or bisexuality to be perfectly fine or not (and I, personally, think it's completely A-Okay) it's still the minority. Considering a minority to be a minority is rape culture? Amazon.com offering to find you things with the key-word 'rape' is rape-culture? What the fuck does that even mean?

    OptimusZed wrote: »
    Jesus, people. This thread is like a running gunbattle with stupid bullets.
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  • FeralFeral Who needs a medical license when you've got style? Registered User regular
    adytum wrote: »
    Feral wrote: »
    adytum wrote: »
    Feral wrote: »

    I'd also argue that a lot of mainstream porn, particularly demeaning stuff like Bang Bros., treads uncomfortably close to rape. Yes, I recognize that there's a difference between demeaning sex and rape, but once you establish a schema that sex can still be fun even while the woman isn't enjoying it, you've broken down one of the psychological barriers against rape.

    So even though rape is explicitly condemned, I'd argue that there are enough mixed messages to warrant discussion of the topic.

    Hopefully you realize that rape fantasies are one of the more common fantasies.. of women.

    Sure? That's not a counterargument.

    Maybe I misread what you were trying to say.. that rape fantasy porn is a factor in real rape?

    Just like video game murders are a factor in real murder.

    If people masturbated while playing video games and thereby associated fictional murder with orgasm then maybe the analogy would fly.

    I am comforted by Richard Dawkins’ theory of memes. Those are mental units: thoughts, ideas, gestures, notions, songs, beliefs, rhymes, ideals, teachings, sayings, phrases, clichés that move from mind to mind as genes move from body to body. After a lifetime of writing, teaching, broadcasting and telling too many jokes, I will leave behind more memes than many. They will all also eventually die, but so it goes. - Roger Ebert, I Do Not Fear Death
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  • lenore beadsmanlenore beadsman Registered User
    Modern Man wrote: »
    Hachface wrote: »
    TubularLuggage wrote: »
    Hachface wrote: »

    All right. Well. If rape is so deeply condemned by our society, then why are rapes underreported, and why is the conviction rate for rape charges so low?

    Yes, because something sometimes goes unreported, it must mean our society actively encourages it.
    Can you hear yourself? Seriously, read your own sentence back to yourself there.

    A lot of car accidents go unreported too, and those aren't encouraged or acceptable either.
    It's condemned in the sense that any sane, stable person is completely against it.

    That's kind of a dodge. You would think that if sexual violence was condemned and taken seriously, there'd be a lot more support for women who have been raped, and the people accused of rape would be convicted more often. Why do you think women often don't report rapes?
    I can't speak as to why rape victims don't report the assaults more often.

    But, in terms of getting convictions, keep in mind most rapes involve a person that the victim knows. Given that fact, making the legal case for rape in such a situation is difficult. If it comes down to a question of "he said, she said" when it comes to the question of consent (lack of which is a requirement for rape to occur), it is fairly easy for a defense counsel to establish reasonable doubt. That is, in cases where the victim and alleged rapist knew each other and there is no clear evidence of force or the threat thereof, it is tough to get a conviction.

    Why isn't the default status "not consenting?" It is in New Jersey. The defense must prove that there was an affirmative declaration of consent, not just an absence of not-consent. Only yes means yes, rather than no means no.

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  • adytumadytum Registered User regular
    ...

    adytum on
    etxvv5.jpg
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  • CptHamiltonCptHamilton Registered User regular
    flamebroiledchicken wrote: »
    Here's a billboard I saw in Vegas:

    sexist_vegas_billboard.jpg

    In case you can't tell, it's a man's hand cramming a disco ball into a woman's mouth, and the words "Take It All In".

    Yeah, it's a rape culture.

    Er, that doesn't look much like cramming to me. The woman looks fairly relaxed and willing and the man's hand looks to be holding the ball rather delicately. That's sexualized culture. But I guess if sex == rape, then okay.

    OptimusZed wrote: »
    Jesus, people. This thread is like a running gunbattle with stupid bullets.
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  • FeralFeral Who needs a medical license when you've got style? Registered User regular
    Chanus wrote: »
    I had a girlfriend once who was raped while I was out of town (thank goodness not violently, at least).

    ...

    I understand what you meant by that...

    ...but when we're talking about rape culture this is exactly what we're talking about.

    Rape is violence. It is not possible for rape to not be violent.

    I am comforted by Richard Dawkins’ theory of memes. Those are mental units: thoughts, ideas, gestures, notions, songs, beliefs, rhymes, ideals, teachings, sayings, phrases, clichés that move from mind to mind as genes move from body to body. After a lifetime of writing, teaching, broadcasting and telling too many jokes, I will leave behind more memes than many. They will all also eventually die, but so it goes. - Roger Ebert, I Do Not Fear Death
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  • SheepSheep Registered User, __BANNED USERS
    scrivenerjones wrote: »
    Hey yall, read this post. you can follow the link for supporting links for basically everything mentioned. rape culture is real and it is terrifying.
    http://shakespearessister.blogspot.com/2009/10/rape-culture-101.html
    Spoiler:

    Seems to be a lot of grand standing ended with "and if you don't agree you're part of the problem". Hate to kinda rain on the thesis here, but even my big barrel chested ass stops doing certain things if there's a hint of danger. You know, going to a big city and flashing cash, not going down seedy alley ways, not drawing attention to myself, not wearing ridiculously expensive clothing, etc. I avoid doing things like that when I'm in New Orleans at night because I don't want to get shot.

    That doesn't mean we're in some kind of culture that promotes violence because that happens.

    Bad things happen. Period. Be it theft, rape, murder, assault, etc. Do some people blame the victim? Yes, but those people are not indicative of society.

    If you want to see a real rape culture then go to the Congo. Don't try to highlight shitty parts of our society to paint the entire country as being of a certain mindset.

    QlBGc.jpg
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  • ChanusChanus Registered User regular
    Feral wrote: »
    Chanus wrote: »
    I had a girlfriend once who was raped while I was out of town (thank goodness not violently, at least).

    ...

    I understand what you meant by that...

    ...but when we're talking about rape culture this is exactly what we're talking about.

    Rape is violence. It is not possible for rape to not be violent.

    Yeah, I hesitated for a long time typing that because I was torn between qualifying (like, at least she didn't get the shit kicked out of her) and the exact reaction you just had...

    I absolutely believe rape is violence.

    Feck, shite, feck, shite, feck, shite, arse!
    Sarksus wrote: »
    Chanus take my quote out of your signature anyway. It's out of context and makes people think I'm afraid or hate vaginas!
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  • lenore beadsmanlenore beadsman Registered User
    CptHamilton wrote: »
    lenore beadsman wrote: »
    CptHamilton wrote: »
    But rapes are almost never about guys using a shortcut into a girl's pants. They are, as you said, about people seizing power that they feel they need but are otherwise lacking the ability to achieve. That has nothing to do with sex or sexualization. Even in the case of godawful fuckwads like the guys discussing the Pick-Up Artists culture thread of a while back, they admit that if a girl says no then that means no. Rapists are, almost universally, not just guys who really, really want sex. They're psychologically unbalanced individuals who are using a violent action to assert dominance and power over people whom they would otherwise perceive themselves as being subordinate to.

    What do you think date rape is?

    I think that date rape is, in most cases, the same as any other rape. Men don't go on dates with a pocket full of ruphies (sp?) thinking, "Well, I'll just take these along in case things go badly." Date rapists are the same twisted individuals as jump-you-in-the-parking-lot rapists, only not quite as incapable of social interaction since they are still sufficiently savvy to get their target into a private situation before raping them.

    Note that I'm not talking here about men who take advantage of drunk women or cases were both parties are impaired. Those are problems and forms of rape, but they're a whole other kettle of fish from pre-meditated date (or otherwise) rapists.

    I think date rape is the same as other kinds of rape, too. I think there's a culture that says "if he buys you dinner, you should probably put out," and teaches women that men get mad if they won't, and teaches men that that anger is legitimate. It isn't. Women are taught that they somehow owe men sex if the men do xyz. Nobody ever owes anybody sex.

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  • HeartlashHeartlash Registered User regular
    Incenjucar wrote: »
    Heartlash wrote: »
    Did you really just imply that people look at rapists with respect? I know you didn't, and that you meant to imply that people may rape due to some misguided belief that it will give them "status". But seriously, do you think that people openly encourage that? Or that MOST people would do that in our society? Even CLOSE to most people?

    What the fuck is going on in this thread?

    I can see you are new to this kind of discourse.

    While certainly in some groups, people do brag about rape, people do not need to share their activities with others to feel that they have gained status from them. Not everyone needs to post their scores on leaderboards, as it were.

    As for the rest, don't imagine statements into what I have said. If I did not say it I did not mean it.

    Sorry to bring this back a few pages later.

    I think I misunderstood the intention of your original post. If it was to say that rape culture exists, then what you said makes perfect sense. If it was to say that we (for the sake of expediency I will assume that implies US/Europe/Australian cultures) live in a rape culture, that's where I find the flaws I states in my post.

    There is an element of rape culture in the US, I'm sure. But that does not make the US a rape culture. In much the same way that there are neonazis in the US, that does not make the US a neonazi country, etc.

    Gosu.com
    11879-1.png
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  • scrivenerjonesscrivenerjones Registered User regular
    Sheep wrote: »
    Hate to kinda rain on the thesis here, but even my big barrel chested ass stops doing certain things if there's a hint of danger. You know, going to a big city and flashing cash, not going down seedy alley ways, not drawing attention to myself, not wearing ridiculously expensive clothing, etc. I avoid doing things like that when I'm in New Orleans at night because I don't want to get shot.

    I'm not sure I understand this post, are you saying that "being a woman" is one of those activities that is too dangerous to be doing in certain parts of town?

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  • Modern ManModern Man Registered User regular
    Hachface wrote: »
    Modern Man wrote: »
    But, in terms of getting convictions, keep in mind most rapes involve a person that the victim knows. Given that fact, making the legal case for rape in such a situation is difficult. If it comes down to a question of "he said, she said" when it comes to the question of consent (lack of which is a requirement for rape to occur), it is fairly easy for a defense counsel to establish reasonable doubt. That is, in cases where the victim and alleged rapist knew each other and there is no clear evidence of force or the threat thereof, it is tough to get a conviction.

    This is all true, and I addressed it in the OP. I remain incredulous, however, that this alone would account for 94% of rape charges ending without conviction.
    Are we talking about people charged with rape or the overall conviction rate for the crime? (those are different things) I did a quick search and found that the conviction rate for rape in the US is about 18.8%.

    http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/pub/html/cjusew96/cpo.htm

    That looks low, but that's a clearance rate higher than any other crime except murder.

    Keep in mind, most crimes (other than murder) aren't actually reported, so it's not surprising that a significant number of rapes don't lead to a conviction- if a rape victim doesn't report the crime, there's nothing for police to investigate. And, if she later decides that she doesn't want to go through the trauma of testifying and reliving the assault, there won't be enough evidence to convict.

    Especially in the cases of acquaintance rape, if the victim doesn't co-operate with the authorities, for whatever reason, it's next to impossible to get a conviction.

    Aetian Jupiter - 41 Gunslinger - The Old Republic
    Rigorous Scholarship

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  • lenore beadsmanlenore beadsman Registered User
    Sheep wrote: »
    Seems to be a lot of grand standing ended with "and if you don't agree you're part of the problem". Hate to kinda rain on the thesis here, but even my big barrel chested ass stops doing certain things if there's a hint of danger. You know, going to a big city and flashing cash, not going down seedy alley ways, not drawing attention to myself, not wearing ridiculously expensive clothing, etc. I avoid doing things like that when I'm in New Orleans at night because I don't want to get shot.

    That doesn't mean we're in some kind of culture that promotes violence because that happens.

    Bad things happen. Period. Be it theft, rape, murder, assault, etc. Do some people blame the victim? Yes, but those people are not indicative of society.

    If you want to see a real rape culture then go to the Congo. Don't try to highlight shitty parts of our society to paint the entire country as being of a certain mindset.

    Yeah man, this can only be a problem in one place, and it sure as shit isn't here.

    What the fuck? Rape culture can exist in two different cultures. In more than two. Hint: it does.

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  • CptHamiltonCptHamilton Registered User regular
    And another thing from the Tower of Text:
    big ass block of text wrote:
    Rape culture is rape jokes. Rape culture is rape jokes on t-shirts, rape jokes in college newspapers, rape jokes in soldiers' home videos, rape jokes on the radio, rape jokes on news broadcasts, rape jokes in magazines, rape jokes in viral videos, rape jokes in promotions for children's movies, rape jokes on Page Six (and again!), rape jokes on the funny pages, rape jokes on TV shows, rape jokes on the campaign trail, rape jokes on Halloween, rape jokes in online content by famous people, rape jokes in online content by non-famous people, rape jokes in headlines, rape jokes onstage at clubs, rape jokes in politics, rape jokes in one-woman shows, rape jokes in print campaigns, rape jokes in movies, rape jokes in cartoons, rape jokes in nightclubs, rape jokes on MTV, rape jokes on late-night chat shows, rape jokes in tattoos, rape jokes in stand-up comedy, rape jokes on websites, rape jokes at awards shows, rape jokes in online contests, rape jokes in movie trailers, rape jokes on the sides of buses, rape jokes on cultural institutions…

    How are jokes about rape rape culture? Our society, and in fact human nature, demands that we make jokes about things. Humor is a coping mechanism. Once we're done being horrified, we make a joke so that the horror is dulled. People make jokes about literally everything. The fact that you make a joke about something horrible doesn't mean that you support it.

    OptimusZed wrote: »
    Jesus, people. This thread is like a running gunbattle with stupid bullets.
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This discussion has been closed.
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