yes KS and blade flurry stacks, but useless to stack for single target fights. Use as soon as the cooldown is up.
Negative, stack as much haste as possible whilst killing spreeing. You still auto-attack and all damage done whilst killing spree is active is increased by 20%.
I'm a bit upset about this, as I had quite an awesome Mace spec in mind.
Edit:
So, what's the consensus on Rogue gemming? I always figured AGI... but I'm being told that AP or ArP are better. Thoughts? My Rogue is pretty fresh on epics, mostly out of ToC and HToC
Your gemming kind of depends on your gear as the EP values of certain stats will vary depending on what your stats are.
If you're Combat and close to the ArP soft cap before Grim Toll/Mjolnir you may want to gem to reach that.
I've found attack power and Agility to be pretty much equal for both specs. Personally, I gem for Agility to help with cycle stabilization, as crits equal more energy for Assassination and more combo points for both Assassination and Combat.
I personally prefer agil over AP, extra bit of dodge may help you dodge that errant cleave.
Meta: Agil/crit damage
Red Slots: Agil or ArP if you are between 450-700 ArP with a grim toll/mjolnir
Yellow Slots: Agil/Crit (If an item has a blue and a yellow slot, use Agil/ArP as above)
Blue Slots: Agil (or ArP as above), except for the token +10 all stats.
I personally prefer agil over AP, extra bit of dodge may help you dodge that errant cleave.
Meta: Agil/crit damage
Red Slots: Agil or ArP if you are between 450-700 ArP with a grim toll/mjolnir
Yellow Slots: Agil/Crit (If an item has a blue and a yellow slot, use Agil/ArP as above)
Blue Slots: Agil (or ArP as above), except for the token +10 all stats.
indeed Agility is your freind as a rogue since day 1
I used a agility/hit yellow gem in the 25 man tier 7 gloves on my rogue
Holy god, yes sir yes sir. Fan of Knives any time there are 3-4+ mobs. Get the glyph, as well. It's just amazing.
Other than that, welcome to Assassination, I hope you enjoy your stay. Work on getting the two Rondel's from the Black Knight in HToC.
Huge groups of mobs are simply orgasmic. Spamming fan of knives easilly puts me around 3.5 to 4k DPS when lots of groups are involved. Single target is good, as well, as I can typically burn one elite heroic mob down as an "off-tank" if need be, pretty quickly. Ambush will open for 6k, Mutilate will double-crit for about 5k (2.5k x2), full envenom will crit in the 9-10k range.
Stick with Ambush on the open, though, it's just too much damage to pass up (then again, my spec is a little different than yours... as I skipped HfB for more crit and hit, check sig to compare)
Garrote and SnD seem like wastes of combo points if you aren't in raids. Regular and heroics benefit more from the major bursts.
So I decided to quit WoW for awhile back when 3.2 was about to hit and showed me the utter futility of busting my ass for months to have my equipment turn to garbage only weeks after its mostly complete.
But looking at the gear for the Colosseum, it was my guess that the stats heavily favored Combat and Rogues would see Mutilate get hugely outclassed. Is that how things are or does Mutilate keep up well? The stuff was very heavy on ArPen and Hit rating across most pieces, which is terrible for Mut overall.
They increased envenoms damage, and changed master poisoner to 33/66/100% chance to not remove deadly poison when envenoming.
Edit: Should probably clarify, that mutilate outpaces combat on a boss where you can stand still and dps the fuck out of it. A lot of the high end rogues still run as combat because it is slightly better for target switching and a significant amount better for gimmick fights where you can pop a cooldown where it counts.
Edit 2: I run as combat simply to put the 4% physical damage increase debuff on the boss, if it weren't for that I'd be all over mutilate like white on rice.
I have conflicting feelings about Cataclysm. On the one hand, I really like the sounds of the new phasing changes with regards to questing. OTOH I loved to raid and they've basically ruined that and I see no reason to believe that will change with the new expansion. It's just too much work for too little payoff now before you have to completely redo your gear again. Blizzard has 100% sold out to the casual retards now.
Yeah but casuals and/or retards are 95% of their playerbase. I like the new system to be honest, herioc raids are the original raiding difficulty and normal raids are the new, easy option. I wish they'd cut the bullshit and make the loot the same between 10/25 mans though, it's going to happen eventually anyway. Herioc 10 man giving the same loot as normal 25 man is pretty insulting since normal anything is a faceroll.
Rami on
Steam / Xbox Live: WSDX NNID: W-S-D-X 3DS FC: 2637-9461-8549
I skipped it for more Crits and Hit rating. I'm not a theorycrafter and I don't do calculations to see what's better and more efficient... I just liked the points elsewhere. Got a little Armor reduction in Sub, and other damage increasing talents. It may or may not outweight the difference.
GPIA7R on
0
GrobianWhat's on sale?Pliers!Registered Userregular
The way I saw it when I started my Rogue:
When you go Assassination you get Mutilate, so Daggers are a must.
Subtlety has lots of talents buffing Ambush and Backstab, so Daggers make the most sense.
In Combat you are pretty much free to choose whatever, but most take Swords (or I guess Axes now?) as the bonus attack proc is the best of the weapon specialization talents.
The way I saw it when I started my Rogue:
When you go Assassination you get Mutilate, so Daggers are a must.
Subtlety has lots of talents buffing Ambush and Backstab, so Daggers make the most sense.
In Combat you are pretty much free to choose whatever, but most take Swords (or I guess Axes now?) as the bonus attack proc is the best of the weapon specialization talents.
I think Combat is the common leveling spec.
Actually Fist/Dagger still outperforms a sword spec.
The way I saw it when I started my Rogue:
When you go Assassination you get Mutilate, so Daggers are a must.
Subtlety has lots of talents buffing Ambush and Backstab, so Daggers make the most sense.
In Combat you are pretty much free to choose whatever, but most take Swords (or I guess Axes now?) as the bonus attack proc is the best of the weapon specialization talents.
I think Combat is the common leveling spec.
I always assumed Subtlety was the levelling spec, due to being able to kill things in 2-3 hits.
I skipped it for more Crits and Hit rating. I'm not a theorycrafter and I don't do calculations to see what's better and more efficient... I just liked the points elsewhere. Got a little Armor reduction in Sub, and other damage increasing talents. It may or may not outweight the difference.
I don't muck through spreadsheets calculating such things either, but a flat 18% increased damage... there is no other talent that gives that.
The way I saw it when I started my Rogue:
When you go Assassination you get Mutilate, so Daggers are a must.
Subtlety has lots of talents buffing Ambush and Backstab, so Daggers make the most sense.
In Combat you are pretty much free to choose whatever, but most take Swords (or I guess Axes now?) as the bonus attack proc is the best of the weapon specialization talents.
I think Combat is the common leveling spec.
I always assumed Subtlety was the levelling spec, due to being able to kill things in 2-3 hits.
Either that or Mutilation... same deal, 2-3 hits.
Combat would have more downtime.
Well bear in mind:
Mutilate - Can't get this until level 50 I think at the earliest, so Daggers are right out. Daggers = Slooow leveling, trust me on that.
Subtlety - If you do some weapon swapping you can start off with a nice Ambush (though you don't get that until level 15 or 20 I think) which starts the fight of decently, but you have to be stealthed and you're talking one mob at a time that way.
Combat - Fastest leveling spec by a long shot, with Adrenaline Rush and Blade Flurry, you're taking down huge groups of mobs at once. Granted they're on long-ish cooldowns (well, one of them is), but it's still a long ways better than any alternative, at least until you get high enough level to get Mutilate.
I'm no fan of Combat really, but for leveling you really can't beat it for straight output.
Mutilate, once you can get it, is amazing leveling. Every few dudes you just pull with garrote+hfb, once you have it, and mutilate gets so many wacky % multipliers added into it that it wrecks bitches quite well.
Combat's great for leveling, though, that's for sure.
Mut was great for grinding out Eternals and such if you get the Improved Camo and Ambush. Able to restealth before attacking each one for Overkill -- they basically only hit you once and they die.
JediNight on
0
reVerseAttack and Dethrone GodRegistered Userregular
edited October 2009
I leveled as Muti+Prep PvP spec. It was nice.
Before level 50, though, I was Combat. Jesus Christ that is the most boring spec ever.
reVerse on
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SenshiBALLING OUT OF CONTROLWavefrontRegistered Userregular
edited October 2009
Combat is amazingly boring. I now laugh at people who raid as combat because I generally out-dps them even in somewhat worse gear as Mutilate.
Hello everyone!
I'm new to this forum although I've been a long time reader and my room mate said he got a lot about playing his class from these forums so I figured I'd ask this here since I can't seem to get a solid answer.
I'm raiding Ulduar 10 currently and I'm combat, I was using Fist/dagger from nax and the fast off hand fist weapon dropped off of flame leviathan. It's significantly higher dps than the off hand dagger I was using but it doesn't seem like my dps actually increased when I equipped it. I've been searching around for some inkling as to why fist/dagger is said to be better than fist/fast fist and couldn't find anything. Anyone know the low down on this?
Thanks much!
The actual weapon in your offhand doesn't matter, fist or dagger, they both get benefits from CQC. The reason its normally fist/dagger is that the offhand fists are slower than daggers, and for combat you really want a fast weapon in your offhand to maximise the potential number of combat potency procs.
I'm guessing you went from a librarians paper cutter (1.3 speed dagger) to the kinetic ripper (1.5 speed fist). So even tho the ripper is approx 20 dps better, its 0.2 speed slower, you get a dps loss in terms of lost energy from a reduced amount of combat potency procs (i.e. less sinister strikes).
Edit - I'd just like to confirm that the ripper is still an upgrade, its just like you said, less of a dps increase to what you were expecting.
KafkaAU on
Origin: KafkaAU B-Net: Kafka#1778
0
GrobianWhat's on sale?Pliers!Registered Userregular
The way I saw it when I started my Rogue:
When you go Assassination you get Mutilate, so Daggers are a must.
Subtlety has lots of talents buffing Ambush and Backstab, so Daggers make the most sense.
In Combat you are pretty much free to choose whatever, but most take Swords (or I guess Axes now?) as the bonus attack proc is the best of the weapon specialization talents.
I think Combat is the common leveling spec.
I always assumed Subtlety was the levelling spec, due to being able to kill things in 2-3 hits.
Either that or Mutilation... same deal, 2-3 hits.
Combat would have more downtime.
Well bear in mind:
Mutilate - Can't get this until level 50 I think at the earliest, so Daggers are right out. Daggers = Slooow leveling, trust me on that.
Subtlety - If you do some weapon swapping you can start off with a nice Ambush (though you don't get that until level 15 or 20 I think) which starts the fight of decently, but you have to be stealthed and you're talking one mob at a time that way.
Combat - Fastest leveling spec by a long shot, with Adrenaline Rush and Blade Flurry, you're taking down huge groups of mobs at once. Granted they're on long-ish cooldowns (well, one of them is), but it's still a long ways better than any alternative, at least until you get high enough level to get Mutilate.
I'm no fan of Combat really, but for leveling you really can't beat it for straight output.
I can compare Combat and Sub somewhat as I'm leveling dual rogues with my girlfriend and she is Combat and I'm Sub specced. From my experience, Halfmex is correct. You get insane burst with Sub, but you always have to stealth and position yourself behind the mob. Shadowstep helps, but that's only at 50. Combat is just the easygoing grind spec where you don't care about anything. It also has the only "AoE" while leveling (Blade Flurry). I have to do more work to get comparable dps, but we also leveled without heirlooms, so she always had better weapons (there are simply more swords than daggers)
I'm getting bored with Sub now, as it's basically: If Ambush crits, the mob is dead in 3 hits, if it doesn't (or even get's dodged), I can't really do anything great anymore. I'm thinking of switching to Mutilate to avoid the positioning problems.
Combat also eventually gets the advantage of undodgeable finishers, which is pretty handy.
Cynic Jester on
0
GrobianWhat's on sale?Pliers!Registered Userregular
edited October 2009
On the topic of getting bored with Subtlety:
How do you guys use Shadowdance? We recently dinged 60 and Shadowdance now requires me to put "Stealth only" abilities on my non-Stealth action bars. I guess I could just put Ambush on there somewhere and don't worry about the rest but it feels clumsy to have an ability on a "good" keybind that I can only use once a minute.
Grobian on
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reVerseAttack and Dethrone GodRegistered Userregular
edited October 2009
Pretty sure Shadow Dance has its own bar, no?
reVerse on
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GrobianWhat's on sale?Pliers!Registered Userregular
edited October 2009
I need to check that, it definitely didn't switch to my stealth bar like I expected it. Maybe it's just a misconfigured bar addon.
/edit: D'uh, that was it. I just had to configure Bongos right. Problem solved, thanks.
Posts
Negative, stack as much haste as possible whilst killing spreeing. You still auto-attack and all damage done whilst killing spree is active is increased by 20%.
Origin: KafkaAU B-Net: Kafka#1778
A Priest took it, then ran off and logged.
I'm a bit upset about this, as I had quite an awesome Mace spec in mind.
Edit:
So, what's the consensus on Rogue gemming? I always figured AGI... but I'm being told that AP or ArP are better. Thoughts? My Rogue is pretty fresh on epics, mostly out of ToC and HToC
http://us.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Shadow+Council&n=Serephim
If you're Combat and close to the ArP soft cap before Grim Toll/Mjolnir you may want to gem to reach that.
I've found attack power and Agility to be pretty much equal for both specs. Personally, I gem for Agility to help with cycle stabilization, as crits equal more energy for Assassination and more combo points for both Assassination and Combat.
Meta: Agil/crit damage
Red Slots: Agil or ArP if you are between 450-700 ArP with a grim toll/mjolnir
Yellow Slots: Agil/Crit (If an item has a blue and a yellow slot, use Agil/ArP as above)
Blue Slots: Agil (or ArP as above), except for the token +10 all stats.
Origin: KafkaAU B-Net: Kafka#1778
indeed Agility is your freind as a rogue since day 1
I used a agility/hit yellow gem in the 25 man tier 7 gloves on my rogue
Normally I open obviously with garrotte, hit HfB, SnD and spam fok. It leaves me with much to be desired.
Other than that, welcome to Assassination, I hope you enjoy your stay. Work on getting the two Rondel's from the Black Knight in HToC.
Huge groups of mobs are simply orgasmic. Spamming fan of knives easilly puts me around 3.5 to 4k DPS when lots of groups are involved. Single target is good, as well, as I can typically burn one elite heroic mob down as an "off-tank" if need be, pretty quickly. Ambush will open for 6k, Mutilate will double-crit for about 5k (2.5k x2), full envenom will crit in the 9-10k range.
Stick with Ambush on the open, though, it's just too much damage to pass up (then again, my spec is a little different than yours... as I skipped HfB for more crit and hit, check sig to compare)
Garrote and SnD seem like wastes of combo points if you aren't in raids. Regular and heroics benefit more from the major bursts.
Umm wtf? You skipped +18% damage? Why?
Origin: KafkaAU B-Net: Kafka#1778
But looking at the gear for the Colosseum, it was my guess that the stats heavily favored Combat and Rogues would see Mutilate get hugely outclassed. Is that how things are or does Mutilate keep up well? The stuff was very heavy on ArPen and Hit rating across most pieces, which is terrible for Mut overall.
Origin: KafkaAU B-Net: Kafka#1778
I'm guessing they're gonna leave Hunger for Blood as a pathetic filler placeholder for the entirety of Wrath? lol...
They increased envenoms damage, and changed master poisoner to 33/66/100% chance to not remove deadly poison when envenoming.
Edit: Should probably clarify, that mutilate outpaces combat on a boss where you can stand still and dps the fuck out of it. A lot of the high end rogues still run as combat because it is slightly better for target switching and a significant amount better for gimmick fights where you can pop a cooldown where it counts.
Edit 2: I run as combat simply to put the 4% physical damage increase debuff on the boss, if it weren't for that I'd be all over mutilate like white on rice.
Origin: KafkaAU B-Net: Kafka#1778
I ask because I want to try something new and I have a crap ton of badges to buy heirloom gear and I want to purchase wisely.
Also, I am planning on doing a mix of questing and PvP for leveling.
I skipped it for more Crits and Hit rating. I'm not a theorycrafter and I don't do calculations to see what's better and more efficient... I just liked the points elsewhere. Got a little Armor reduction in Sub, and other damage increasing talents. It may or may not outweight the difference.
The way I saw it when I started my Rogue:
When you go Assassination you get Mutilate, so Daggers are a must.
Subtlety has lots of talents buffing Ambush and Backstab, so Daggers make the most sense.
In Combat you are pretty much free to choose whatever, but most take Swords (or I guess Axes now?) as the bonus attack proc is the best of the weapon specialization talents.
I think Combat is the common leveling spec.
Actually Fist/Dagger still outperforms a sword spec.
I always assumed Subtlety was the levelling spec, due to being able to kill things in 2-3 hits.
Either that or Mutilation... same deal, 2-3 hits.
Combat would have more downtime.
I don't muck through spreadsheets calculating such things either, but a flat 18% increased damage... there is no other talent that gives that.
Mutilate - Can't get this until level 50 I think at the earliest, so Daggers are right out. Daggers = Slooow leveling, trust me on that.
Subtlety - If you do some weapon swapping you can start off with a nice Ambush (though you don't get that until level 15 or 20 I think) which starts the fight of decently, but you have to be stealthed and you're talking one mob at a time that way.
Combat - Fastest leveling spec by a long shot, with Adrenaline Rush and Blade Flurry, you're taking down huge groups of mobs at once. Granted they're on long-ish cooldowns (well, one of them is), but it's still a long ways better than any alternative, at least until you get high enough level to get Mutilate.
I'm no fan of Combat really, but for leveling you really can't beat it for straight output.
Combat's great for leveling, though, that's for sure.
Before level 50, though, I was Combat. Jesus Christ that is the most boring spec ever.
I'm new to this forum although I've been a long time reader and my room mate said he got a lot about playing his class from these forums so I figured I'd ask this here since I can't seem to get a solid answer.
I'm raiding Ulduar 10 currently and I'm combat, I was using Fist/dagger from nax and the fast off hand fist weapon dropped off of flame leviathan. It's significantly higher dps than the off hand dagger I was using but it doesn't seem like my dps actually increased when I equipped it. I've been searching around for some inkling as to why fist/dagger is said to be better than fist/fast fist and couldn't find anything. Anyone know the low down on this?
Thanks much!
I'm guessing you went from a librarians paper cutter (1.3 speed dagger) to the kinetic ripper (1.5 speed fist). So even tho the ripper is approx 20 dps better, its 0.2 speed slower, you get a dps loss in terms of lost energy from a reduced amount of combat potency procs (i.e. less sinister strikes).
Edit - I'd just like to confirm that the ripper is still an upgrade, its just like you said, less of a dps increase to what you were expecting.
Origin: KafkaAU B-Net: Kafka#1778
I can compare Combat and Sub somewhat as I'm leveling dual rogues with my girlfriend and she is Combat and I'm Sub specced. From my experience, Halfmex is correct. You get insane burst with Sub, but you always have to stealth and position yourself behind the mob. Shadowstep helps, but that's only at 50. Combat is just the easygoing grind spec where you don't care about anything. It also has the only "AoE" while leveling (Blade Flurry). I have to do more work to get comparable dps, but we also leveled without heirlooms, so she always had better weapons (there are simply more swords than daggers)
I'm getting bored with Sub now, as it's basically: If Ambush crits, the mob is dead in 3 hits, if it doesn't (or even get's dodged), I can't really do anything great anymore. I'm thinking of switching to Mutilate to avoid the positioning problems.
How do you guys use Shadowdance? We recently dinged 60 and Shadowdance now requires me to put "Stealth only" abilities on my non-Stealth action bars. I guess I could just put Ambush on there somewhere and don't worry about the rest but it feels clumsy to have an ability on a "good" keybind that I can only use once a minute.
/edit: D'uh, that was it. I just had to configure Bongos right. Problem solved, thanks.