I'm pretty sure Omen was as well. My point is that it would be exceedingly difficult to figure out the targeting methodology without something telling you where each tank and DPS sits on threat.
forty on
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Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
edited November 2009
its because due to the prevalence of addons blizzard is now either forced to design fights assuming that you have a few basic ones, or design fights assuming you don't, and give the people who do use them a big advantage.
I don't quite get what that has to do with Patchwerk's design.
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Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
edited November 2009
Well, the way Patchwerk is designed, using a threat-based mechanic, it almost requires a threat meter to be able to maximise DPS on such an DPS intensive fight, and without threat meters, even the barely accurate ones of vanilla WoW, that fight would have been ridiculously difficult and entirely down to guesswork.
thats the kind of thing we wont see ever again and it makes me sad.
trying to figure out a boss entirely by guesswork that is
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You don't know if I am joking or not.
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Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
edited November 2009
thats the point though, you wouldn't be figuring out the design by guesswork, it would be guesswork to actually execute the fight. Am I getting close to the third tank? You could still be 30% off, but you have a feel that you might be getting close so you slow down, then wipe to enrage at 2%, and if you'd pushed harder you would have got it.
i agree, figuring out a boss strategy for yourself is a lot more fun than just learning and executing a well-known one, but thats not what patchwerk sans threat meters would be about...every single time you did the fight it would be about guesswork.
thats the kind of thing we wont see ever again and it makes me sad.
trying to figure out a boss entirely by guesswork that is
I could in theory enjoy figuring out a boss, but only if there was no repair cost, no consumable cost, a very brief run back to the fight, and almost instant buffing. Because figuring out a boss by guesswork would take forever.
Designing an encounter around stuff like voice chat or DBM stuff like buff/debuff announcments is one thing. You can at least still figure them out and get past them without the help, it might just be a bit harder to do. A threat based one though just seems especially silly to do. Because like it was said, how would you ever figure that shit out unless somebody else told you first?
The Wolfman on
"The sausage of Green Earth explodes with flavor like the cannon of culinary delight."
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Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
edited November 2009
i actually had some experience figuring out bosses by guesswork when Ulduar was first released, because although there were basic strategies for some fights up on the net from the PTR, they were far from accurate or exhaustive, so we had to figure everything out ourselves. and it didn't actually take that long for most fights, you could usually see what killed you and take steps to modify your strategy.
hell, the first time we did XT on 10man, we didn't realise that damaging his heart damaged him, so we killed him without touching the heart at all, since we'd heard that killing the heart activated hard mode.
however, for a fight like Patchwerk, figuring that out by guesswork without having a threat meter would be ridiculous. he looks like a tank and spank fight, and if you didn't know what Hateful Strikes were (most people in WoW know by now that a hateful strike is something a boss does to people high on threat (Gruul etc) it could be very difficult to figure out why exactly your melee DPS kept exploding.
thats the point though, you wouldn't be figuring out the design by guesswork, it would be guesswork to actually execute the fight. Am I getting close to the third tank? You could still be 30% off, but you have a feel that you might be getting close so you slow down, then wipe to enrage at 2%, and if you'd pushed harder you would have got it.
i agree, figuring out a boss strategy for yourself is a lot more fun than just learning and executing a well-known one, but thats not what patchwerk sans threat meters would be about...every single time you did the fight it would be about guesswork.
that is not fun.
For anyone that raided 40-man style, throttling DPS to prevent an untimely death was kind of ingrained in you by the time Naxx was an option.
I definitely wouldn't put that responsibility in front of someone now, though.
i actually had some experience figuring out bosses by guesswork when Ulduar was first released, because although there were basic strategies for some fights up on the net from the PTR, they were far from accurate or exhaustive, so we had to figure everything out ourselves. and it didn't actually take that long for most fights, you could usually see what killed you and take steps to modify your strategy.
hell, the first time we did XT on 10man, we didn't realise that damaging his heart damaged him, so we killed him without touching the heart at all, since we'd heard that killing the heart activated hard mode.
however, for a fight like Patchwerk, figuring that out by guesswork without having a threat meter would be ridiculous. he looks like a tank and spank fight, and if you didn't know what Hateful Strikes were (most people in WoW know by now that a hateful strike is something a boss does to people high on threat (Gruul etc) it could be very difficult to figure out why exactly your melee DPS kept exploding.
Yeah, this is pretty much exactly what I'm talking about.
I guess I just don't think that the threat surfing designed into Patchwerk is a very good mechanic. It's certainly not a fun one.
thats the point though, you wouldn't be figuring out the design by guesswork, it would be guesswork to actually execute the fight. Am I getting close to the third tank? You could still be 30% off, but you have a feel that you might be getting close so you slow down, then wipe to enrage at 2%, and if you'd pushed harder you would have got it.
i agree, figuring out a boss strategy for yourself is a lot more fun than just learning and executing a well-known one, but thats not what patchwerk sans threat meters would be about...every single time you did the fight it would be about guesswork.
that is not fun.
For anyone that raided 40-man style, throttling DPS to prevent an untimely death was kind of ingrained in you by the time Naxx was an option.
I definitely wouldn't put that responsibility in front of someone now, though.
The problem was that throttling DPS on Patchwerk led to berserk wipes. Damned if you do, damned if you don't is pretty lame.
The problem was that throttling DPS on Patchwerk led to berserk wipes. Damned if you do, damned if you don't is pretty lame.
Same thing with Vaelestrasz, though, for the most part, but people managed. In those days we had more problems with tank healing because of how unfriendly mana regen was to a intense spam fight like that.
Maybe I'm being nostalgic, but I really wish more people had experienced that since threat is becoming more and more of an issue as DPS scales in Wrath. I doubt it'll ever be as difficult as it was, of course.
Pfft, back in the day on Patchwerk before anyone knew what a hateful strike was one of the attempted strats was for Hunters to kite his ass around. I think a guild on my old server even downed him this way.
JustinSane07 on
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Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
edited November 2009
that would be epic.
Dhalphir on
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SenshiBALLING OUT OF CONTROLWavefrontRegistered Userregular
Gag Order makes Heroic Throw so dang awesome, that I'll sometimes use it in a DPS spec and stand confused for a moment on why that caster is still standing there casting.
The Wolfman on
"The sausage of Green Earth explodes with flavor like the cannon of culinary delight."
Hi, first time poster here - what glyphs do you all recommend for heroic tanking? I'm using the deep wounds tank spec from the OP atm, with the following glyphs i slotted in ages ago without much though:
Shockwave is a pretty poor glyph, most AOE pulls wont live long enough to see the second one. I prefer cleaving and resonating power for AOE threat and blocking as the third.
Change out vigilance/shockwave with cleaving/blocking. Cleaving is awesome for heroics(3 target cleave), Blocking is just great because it's pretty much a permanent 10% increase to block value.
For minors you I would recommend changing Bloodrage for Charge. The extra 5 yards on charge is wonderful to have, and you really shouldn't need to bloodrage often anyway with charge every 15 seconds and at least 2/5 shield spec in heroics. Plus, even if you do the HP cost of bloodrage is negligible.
Wow thanks for all the tips. I'll take care of that now (guess this means I need to find a place to fit cleave into my tank bar and stop nubbing it up so hard)
EDIT: Whats the best tanking weapon enchant? I'm still using a weapon chain but slapping a mongoose on there doesn't look half bad.
There is no real clear winner for tank enchants. I think most people think Mongoose is the all around best one, then Blade Ward and Blood Draining are both considered kinda weak but have their own proponents. Weapon chain/precision aren't bad, 26 agi is a little dodge.
Really it's just a personal preference. I put blade ward on my current tank weapon, and I'll probably go for Mongoose on my next one to see if I prefer it.
Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
edited November 2009
i still say Accuracy, but I've never liked proc enchants and I tend to favour iLevel for enchants.
Dhalphir on
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Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
edited November 2009
blood draining is not an EH enchant i hate this misconception.
tankspot are dumb.
EH helps you survive hits. Blood Draining, which kicks in after you take the hit, therefore is not EH since it will not help you survive a hit which otherwise would kill you. And if you're taken so low by a hit that the next attack will kill you, you're gonna die by a lot more than 2k hp.
The problem with Accuracy is that for the benefit over Titanium Weapon Chain (25 crit rating) the mats are astronomical on many servers.
I picked up the sword last night from Anub 10 man Hard, the one with armor, and I'm not sure what I'm gonna put on it yet.
JustinSane07 on
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Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
edited November 2009
Yeah Accuracy is way too expensive for what it gives over weapon chain, but thats the way with all enchants.
There's a medium enchant, which is say 10g then a very good enchant, which is 100, then the best, which is 1000g. (numbers made up to illustrate proportion). And the difference between the very good and the best is often very small.
And if you're taken so low by a hit that the next attack will kill you, you're gonna die by a lot more than 2k hp.
On a typical boss' two-second swing timer, there's time to recover from a hit like that. I don't like to hedge my bets on small amounts of avoidance like what Mongoose gives, so the best option is Blood Draining. It's by no means a bad enchantment, and it's not frequently a life-saver, but what is really?
So, I'm going to FINALLY get around to working on that warrior I've always dreamed of.
Two questions:
1) It'll be an Alliance side warrior. Dwarf work fine? Or is there some definite benefit to rolling Draenei, or whatever else?
2) When it comes to leveling should I just stick with Fury or Arms? Oddly enough this is the only forum my workplace doesn't ban so I can't pull up, say, the WoW forums and check on some stickied levelling threads.
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SenshiBALLING OUT OF CONTROLWavefrontRegistered Userregular
edited November 2009
Well, all specs have their advantages. It's basically
do you enjoy large swords? Arms.
do you enjoy zero downtime? Fury.
do you enjoy pulling all the mobs for the quest at once? Several times over, maybe? Prot.
and another one for fun: do you enjoy steamrolling low-level battlegrounds? Prot.
Posts
KLH Threatmeter was available for the original Naxx.
trying to figure out a boss entirely by guesswork that is
i agree, figuring out a boss strategy for yourself is a lot more fun than just learning and executing a well-known one, but thats not what patchwerk sans threat meters would be about...every single time you did the fight it would be about guesswork.
that is not fun.
I could in theory enjoy figuring out a boss, but only if there was no repair cost, no consumable cost, a very brief run back to the fight, and almost instant buffing. Because figuring out a boss by guesswork would take forever.
hell, the first time we did XT on 10man, we didn't realise that damaging his heart damaged him, so we killed him without touching the heart at all, since we'd heard that killing the heart activated hard mode.
however, for a fight like Patchwerk, figuring that out by guesswork without having a threat meter would be ridiculous. he looks like a tank and spank fight, and if you didn't know what Hateful Strikes were (most people in WoW know by now that a hateful strike is something a boss does to people high on threat (Gruul etc) it could be very difficult to figure out why exactly your melee DPS kept exploding.
I definitely wouldn't put that responsibility in front of someone now, though.
I guess I just don't think that the threat surfing designed into Patchwerk is a very good mechanic. It's certainly not a fun one.
The problem was that throttling DPS on Patchwerk led to berserk wipes. Damned if you do, damned if you don't is pretty lame.
Maybe I'm being nostalgic, but I really wish more people had experienced that since threat is becoming more and more of an issue as DPS scales in Wrath. I doubt it'll ever be as difficult as it was, of course.
Y/N/GTFO?
Gag order is also super useful when tanking in general, since it's a 10% damage increase to your highest threat move.
Major:
Devastate
Vigilance
Shockwave
Minor:
Bloodrage
Command
Thunder Clap
What should I replace?
For minors you I would recommend changing Bloodrage for Charge. The extra 5 yards on charge is wonderful to have, and you really shouldn't need to bloodrage often anyway with charge every 15 seconds and at least 2/5 shield spec in heroics. Plus, even if you do the HP cost of bloodrage is negligible.
EDIT: Whats the best tanking weapon enchant? I'm still using a weapon chain but slapping a mongoose on there doesn't look half bad.
Really it's just a personal preference. I put blade ward on my current tank weapon, and I'll probably go for Mongoose on my next one to see if I prefer it.
tankspot are dumb.
EH helps you survive hits. Blood Draining, which kicks in after you take the hit, therefore is not EH since it will not help you survive a hit which otherwise would kill you. And if you're taken so low by a hit that the next attack will kill you, you're gonna die by a lot more than 2k hp.
I picked up the sword last night from Anub 10 man Hard, the one with armor, and I'm not sure what I'm gonna put on it yet.
There's a medium enchant, which is say 10g then a very good enchant, which is 100, then the best, which is 1000g. (numbers made up to illustrate proportion). And the difference between the very good and the best is often very small.
Two questions:
1) It'll be an Alliance side warrior. Dwarf work fine? Or is there some definite benefit to rolling Draenei, or whatever else?
2) When it comes to leveling should I just stick with Fury or Arms? Oddly enough this is the only forum my workplace doesn't ban so I can't pull up, say, the WoW forums and check on some stickied levelling threads.
do you enjoy large swords? Arms.
do you enjoy zero downtime? Fury.
do you enjoy pulling all the mobs for the quest at once? Several times over, maybe? Prot.
and another one for fun: do you enjoy steamrolling low-level battlegrounds? Prot.
if you can spot a euphemism in that, it wasn't intended
Edit: well, not too low level, but anything in the mid-range is pretty much your playground. You're basically impossible to kill.
At least I was.