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[WoW] Rogues:Cheat Death: 100% chance to stab yourself in the groin.

tyrannustyrannus Registered User regular
edited November 2007 in MMO Extravaganza
worstshopever.jpg

This is a fairly old post, but relevant.
Feel free to ask any questions to people like Wavechaser, and the like. I don't play WoW anymore.

This is not an end all post, I do not think I can make it as such. I just want to give you a broad overview.

Why would I make a rogue?
Control, damage, and a fantastic world PvP class. Ganking some feral druid who thinks he's badass when he as 15% hp is excellent. Bypassing content with a friendly druid who thinks your ass is cute is also quite fun.

If I want damage, I'd play a mage
Perhaps, but the damage a rogue offers is fun on demand burst damage so much so that it can become something you can rely on. Also, it's more fun then standing back spamming fireball. PVP is even more fun with as many tricks and aces a rogue has.

You can't gank in the expansion, people have like 10,000hp
You'll still be able to dish out some mean ganking damage. And abuse improved sap, which has been increased to 100% for 2 points. You'll be hard pessed to find a reason to not get it, unless you really like burning blinding powder faster than Azou goes through Big Macs.

You still haven't sold me, but fine, I bite. Tell me, what should I use for leveling?
All joking aside, you can really level anyway you want. From experience though, I'd shoot for your 31 point talent as quick as possible and get a nice pair of swords. You can actually go from a Wingblade to a Outlaw Sabre to a Jade Broadsword and Sword of Omen to a Vanquisher's sword to a Thrash Blade to Dal' Rends to BC content gear, or old MC style stuff. Swords are fantastic to level with.

What race should I be? undead, right?
Yes. Cannibilize reduces downtime grindng, underwater breathing is fun for escaping players (you'll be doing this a lot) and ganking (Imp sap + gnome + water = hilarity), and WoTF frees up a trinket slot.

But yeah, you can be any race but with the recent nerf to thistle tea, blood elf is looking pretty hot, too. But I like undead, even if we wear socks to war.

Explain to me the trees, because I am horrible

Assassination is something to make your finishers deadlier with stuff to generally increase your yellow damage's potential, be it combo point generation (Seal Fate, Mutilate) or increased damage (Imp Evis, Imp Kidney shot, Find Weakness)

Combat is basically white damage and energy management. Making things cost less energy, do more damage, and add to a weird tempo of energy (Combat potency, Adrenaline rush), or adding to your white AND yellow abilities potency, like, +to hit, + to offhand damage, +parry, +dodge, etc.

Subtlety is the utility and opener tree. It doesn't offer a lot of extra damage like Assassination or Combat does, so it also offers things to overall and boradly increase your damage. Deadliness, Sinister Calling, Shadowstep, all amazing talents. In a 20ass/0cbt/41Sub build, your damage will not be lacking, and your opening combo point generation will be fantastic. You will, by far, have your first 5 combo points faster than any build that doesn't go at least 30 points into subtlety, and usually those are the most important.

These are just overviews, if you have questions, I'll gladly answer them and update this guide.

You're a fag. How are rogues in PvP? I hear they bitch a lot.

Each spec you play with is different. With hemo, you'll have an astounding amount of control and reasonable damage and fantastic combo point generation, allowing for multiple finishers per fight.

With full combat, you will be more deadly out of stealth and be just a walking force to be reckoned with. Melee will cry, casters will bitch, and warlocks will post on forums about how you killed them in a stunlock.

With any dagger build, your modem will be your best friend, alongside crippling poison. A good ping and crippling are usually required for daggers, which explains the reasoning behind mutilate (a tad) REWARDING the player for doing something he'd ordinarily do.

The best build is the most fun build, and whichever you decide is a fun build is the best build. Personally, however, I am in a toss up between 31/0/30 and 30/0/31 - a 20 energy cheap shot (basically), or 5 combo points immediately is a tough decision for me.

The rogues that bitch a lot suffer delusions induced by a lack of available cooldowns, or are just not that great at the class, or are good at understanding what they need to do but their micromanagement is horrible.
There are just some classes, too, that are just insane to fight as certain specs. A combat rogue (exluding daggers) might not fare so well against a frost mage willing to burn cold snap, but will be far more comfortable taking on that warrior with 10,000 hp.

Some good tips for using daggers -
In a situation where he's crippled and you're not, run/jump through him. Don't dick around running around him, that takes time and could have you running around with full energy like an asshole for awhile.

When you're crippled and he's not, blind or vanish, depending on the fight.

I will go into class versus class details in this thread, but that task is gigantic.

I want more general tips, you convulsing asstard.
All I really know is that nova = blind. feared? break and blind before you eat an intercept. NS heal to full? Kill his faggy poison cleansing totem and searing totem and blind + bandage. Rogue open on you, but suck at stunlock? Blind. Druid runs into caster form and not cast abolish poison on himself? You get the picture. It's a way to get them to stay the fuck still. All your fearsome damage is done up close. Just need to use some control and know your energy.

Do not kidney shot if below 30/20 energy unless you have some way of getting back a good chunk of that energy. Use your energy ticks of timing for when your stun will run out. Use StunWatch if you're lazy.

Restealth when you can.

You need +10 energy in some manner or form if you want to truly stunlock. vigor, 1/2 dirty deeds, NS 5 piece bonus. use blind as a link between CS and gouge diminishing returns. An epic stunlock will, on live, do a LOT of damage. Level 63 rogues are able to 100->0 (Stunlock someone from full HP to no HP without them getting a shot in) by abusing blind.

You can get blinding powder and other poison stuff from junkboxes off of humanoid mobs.

Engineering is also amazing to link stunlocks, stop runners, and all around just a fun rogue profession.

More tips to be added as this is just going as a flow.

This isn't going anywhere, you should've had some outline

Yeah, well, you're a dick. I need you to ask questions and inspire me to put more stuff in the guide after going over with you personally about it.

Well, asshead, okay. If I do raid, what kind of shit can I expect?

What a wonderful question, I'll let one of those gays answer it for you.
Originally typed by that douchebag Unai
Well, unfortunately, Blizzard has decided to continue the trend of tier 4 to tier 5 by making every single class except for warlocks gheyer than tree droods (and making druids even gayer)How is that even possible? -Tyr.

The rogue tier 5 can only be described by a cross between Shredder from Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles and a slightly more chubby and flamboyant Skeletor from He-man. Also, blizzard hates Undead Rogues so they will continue to wear socks. Enjoy your future raiding rogue!

TO BE CONTINUED

Questions and answers
As you see it, would the ZG trinket make up the diff between a BE and a UD? Since the UD would have a free spot because of WoTF.
Both TT and the Trinket are nerfed. DEE COLON.

Certainly both are races that most casters will moan and complan about. It doesn't really answer your question, but know that I've broken fear and seduce a LOT and use cannabilize all the time. I'd say the diff between a BE and an UD is what classes they'll do well against.
Ive heard people say fists are better DPS than swords for combat. Your opinion? Also Maces yea or neah?

I've heard this spread about as common knowledge, but as I see it, it's just as good. An offhand sword can proc a MH spec. But, it resets the swing timer for the main hand. But, the neat thing I think is that, instead of attacking 1.0 seconds later, you attack that very second. It still gives you more hits than you would get with a fist-spec, although with the scaling down of crit gear, the +5 crit is going to be nice for raiding. The only way to check is to do some crazy math I'm not ready for yet. But with a Hand of Justice and sword spec, a GM quickblade and a nice MH sword and windfury, you'll just be OOZING white damage.

Maces are alright, they're not as bad as people say they are but mace spec is kinda on and off. It offers not really anything in terms of raiding anymore, even with the talent being merged into its own form of Weapon Expertise. And, as Jelu mentions, Fist spec is usually amazing, but I find that pure, unadulterated damage comes in the form of combat daggers. I look at other guild's damage meters and using their CD rogue is on top of the other rogues, but I'm sure someone in the thread will note some other anecdoctal evidence to claim otherwise.
As a combat rogue what kind of gear would I be looking for? Would it be different from a dagger rogues? same question visa-versa?
Whore your AP and hit. You want at least 12% before you go with crit. AP adds to all your damage, yellow and white. AP and hit with a bit of crit. You want a good balance of crit and hit and AP because a non-crit backstab for 700 will be better than a critical backstab of 1000.

Remember, a non-crit backstab is worse for you to get than a dodged backstab, which was the misinformed gripe about surprise attacks. As it was, people assumed a 1 tiered hit/crit/dodge thing. If it was dodged, then SA would say it hit, therefore it couldn't crit. But that's not how it works. It’s a two tiered system. It was a fine talent, but it’s still pretty good now.
is imp expose armor worth it? explain why?
Fuck yes, think of expose armor (improved) as a 35% increase in all damage done to the target as long as the debuff is there. It's necessary to dps down a holy priest obsessed with healing and getting through the mitigation of a shadow priest, for burning down a shaman or paladin, and just generally a fun little insult to use on mages.

Premed-CS->Expose->Gouge/Blind->Shadowstep->Ambush is a FUCKTON of protential damage.
Which is better DPS Shiv or Sinister Strike?
Hopefully I can be shed some more light on this but as it seems in a 41 talent point combat build, as long as you have a quick offhand and LOTS of poison and vile poison, shiv'll out damage SS. Why? Because shiv is yellow damage, so it has to be normalized, and it's normalized at 2.4 for AP. Also, it'll instaly apply your gay old instant poison. It really excells at high armor targets (dur, poison > armor), and adds combo points and costs less energy than SS, so even on low armor targets, the combo point gen from shiv'll make up for SS. I'm sure they'll do something to change it, but still, it's nice.
You said engineering is a good profession for rogues would you recommend any others considering the info youve collected in the beta.

Weaponsmithing for instance. being able to make and use those sick maces or swords. or Tailoring nets, jewelcrafting trinkets, etc.
Sure. There's a ton of options now and for me to suggest one would be presumptuous of how I think you should spend your money.

in reference to Azou's dumbassery
YOU ARE SO FUCKING WRONG!

But a lot of people misunderstand how the dual wield penalty works. If you dual wield, you have only an 85% chance to hit with both the mainhand and offhand before talents and gear. Your offhand also suffers a -50% to damage before talents. +15% to hit will allow you to attack a mob your same level and never miss with white damage. +23.9% hit will allow you to attack a level 63 mob and never miss with white damage. +5% will allow you to attack a mob your same level and never miss with yellow damage.

Over 50% of a rogues damage comes from white hits which is why PvE rogues enjoy stacking so much hit instead of crit.
With ordinary auto-attack ("white damage") weapon strikes, Dual Wielding adds an additional 19% to the attacker's miss rate. This penalty applies both to auto-attack strikes with the off-hand weapon and to auto-attack strikes with the main hand weapon. Since the base miss rate of all characters is 5%, dual-wielding will increase your miss rate to 24%(19%+5%).

(This applies when the target's Defense skill equals the attacker's weapon skill. For each point the target's Defense skill exceeds the attacker's weapon skill, the miss chance increases by 0.04%. For each point the attacker's Weapon skill exceeds the target's Defense skill, the miss chance decreases by 0.04%. See Formulas:Weapon Skill.)

Important note: Prior to version 1.8, dual wield's miss chance had a hard cap of 19%, meaning that all dual-wield auto-attacks had a minimum 19% miss chance regardless of how much +hit% gear was equipped. In version 1.8, this hard cap was removed. The exact wording of the 1.8 patch note was:

"Items which provide +hit chance will now be allowed to counteract the increased miss chance penalty of dual-wielding."

Take a rogue for example vs. a 63 monster, he has 5%+(0.04%*15)= 5.6% base miss chance (assuming he has 300 weapon skill and the monster has no special internal Defense skill bonuses), plus 19% dual wield miss chance, leaving us with a total miss chance of 24.6%.

Note that the +19% miss chance for dual-wielding only applies to ordinary auto-attack melee attacks. It does not apply to any special attack powers that cost rage, energy, or mana -- neither instant attacks such as Sinister Strike, nor on next swing attacks such as Heroic Strike, incur the dual wield miss penalty. So, with 6% +hit from gear/talents a dual-wielder will never miss with an instant attack (although the attack can still be dodged, parried, or blocked -- see the Attack table article). However, a dual-wielder would need 25% +hit if he wants to remove the miss chance for auto-attack/white damage totally.

Hey, look, shit about hitting and missing! Not sure if it's accurate, but...

http://evilempireguild.org/guides/attacks.php

I'm still bad! Your guide fucking sucks!
Watch some rogue videos, if you can find Ming's stuff, those are good.

Unsouled's videos are fantastic, and Nerf Sap 8 is good as well.




Give me some links, you talking red baboon-ass.

FINE. FINE. FUCK YOU.

http://roguecrap.blogspot.com/ Theorycraft for rogues. Updates regularly, but not daily.

http://www.worldofming.com Arrogant rogue, but useful. Offers in depth talent guides.

http://shadowpanther.net/ Incldues FR gear, NR gear, anything and a method of comparing gear, in case you can't decide if you like stormshroud over devilsaur.

tyrannus on
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Posts

  • CaptHighSpeedCaptHighSpeed Registered User
    edited April 2007
    Nax wrote: »
    Gnovaries r about 2 b all up ons ur fase.

    get back to leveling your 50th warrior :)

    i need to play my rogue more... mace spec for the win

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • BrainleechBrainleech Registered User regular
    edited April 2007
    As a rogue it's fun to sneak into the aldor terrace and kill the various npcs this also applies to the Alter of the Sha'Tar in Shadow moon

    But as for my misadventures with my blood elf rogue; arcane torrent is all kinds of fun with casters
    and the comments of "ick it's a blood elf rogue" are always so helpful

    A.jpg
  • GrimDog420GrimDog420 Registered User
    edited April 2007
    i hate my rogue, but hes all i have left.

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • exisexis Registered User regular
    edited April 2007
    GrimDog420 wrote: »
    i hate my rogue, but hes all i have left.

    Blizzard disabled your ability to make a new character? It's like I'm on the official priest forum.

    XBL: ecksys | LoL: deyur | Path of Exile: deyur | Check out our Kiwi games podcast
    camo_sig2.png
  • TransporterTransporter Registered User regular
    edited April 2007
    Whoo! Finally finished up WSG for the Protector's Sword. It was a long and hard decision, but I finally decided to go with the level 38 version. Can't pass up having the the 38 P-Sword AND The Vanquisher's blade at 39/40. Of course, that also means that these last few levels are going to be...well....interesting

    First off, I hate that I'm a fucking Nelf. Sword of Omen rapes the Serenity blade of sissyness. And the Outlaw Sabre is a QUEST reward for you guys. I been using a CB with FIREY for christssakes. And a fucking PRISON shank.

    Well, at least the Zelot Blade is OH MY GOD THAT'S HALF MY MOUNTS COST.

    Sooo.....one Jade Serpentblade it is....

  • DisruptorX2DisruptorX2 Registered User regular
    edited April 2007
    Meh, unless you are camping BGs, vanquisher's sword/sword of serenity works just fine for a long time. And if you are camping BGs, daggers are better anyway.

    1208768734831.jpg
  • fadingathedgesfadingathedges Registered User regular
    edited April 2007
    Rentilius wrote: »

    NO





    ok i've never seen that so apologies if im mistaken on that front, however this one anomaly in the one-roll theory doesnt have me buying into multiple rolls just yet, personally. in reality, i doubt we'll ever get a 100% accurate picture without someone haxing into bliz, and for all intents and purposes one-roll matches up to what we see in game. id more readily believe something like~

    (simplified)
    1-5 miss
    6-10 parry
    11-15 blocked crit
    16-50 crit
    etc

    built into a single roll.

    Win some blizzard Comic-Constuff: http://splur.gy/r/97y9q/r/2NRMzn3qxnH
  • GrimDog420GrimDog420 Registered User
    edited April 2007
    exis wrote: »
    GrimDog420 wrote: »
    i hate my rogue, but hes all i have left.

    Blizzard disabled your ability to make a new character? It's like I'm on the official priest forum.

    not all of us have unlimited time to grind up new chars to 70

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • DerrickDerrick Registered User regular
    edited April 2007
    GrimDog420 wrote: »
    exis wrote: »
    GrimDog420 wrote: »
    i hate my rogue, but hes all i have left.

    Blizzard disabled your ability to make a new character? It's like I'm on the official priest forum.

    not all of us have unlimited time to grind up new chars to 70

    I have the time.

    I just don't have the goddamn inclination.

    "The welfare of each of us is dependent fundamentally upon the welfare of all of us."
    Spoiler:
    -Theodore Roosevelt
  • tyrannustyrannus Registered User regular
    edited April 2007
    I really believe it's not a single roll system.

    I need to find what Kalman said about it.

  • MedopineMedopine __BANNED USERS
    edited April 2007
    Iskander wrote: »
    laffncry wrote: »
    Nice thread here. But I think Leonidas is a warrior not a rogue. Respect to you rogues here, I am thinking of making a rogue too. Does a Tauren Rogue would do good or are there any race that would fit better?

    Okay are you dumb or what?

    That poster continues to amuse and amaze me.

    I think he's an alien imposter.

  • fadingathedgesfadingathedges Registered User regular
    edited April 2007
    Rentilius wrote: »
    I really believe it's not a single roll system.

    I need to find what Kalman said about it.

    id be interested to see, if you dig it up linky

    Win some blizzard Comic-Constuff: http://splur.gy/r/97y9q/r/2NRMzn3qxnH
  • JadedJaded Registered User
    edited April 2007
    laffncry wrote: »
    Rentilius wrote: »
    worstshopever.jpg

    Nice thread here. But I think Leonidas is a warrior not a rogue. Respect to you rogues here, I am thinking of making a rogue too. Does a Tauren Rogue would do good or are there any race that would fit better?



    Would you name him invisi-bull?

    I can't think of anything clever.
  • TheCrumblyCrackerTheCrumblyCracker Registered User
    edited April 2007
    Combat daggers OR DIE.

  • AngryAngry Slang Pope Breakbeat MinisterRegistered User regular
    edited April 2007
    i specced combat daggers for about an hour after i got my shanker.

    pretty much the worst experience i've had in the game.

    GW2: Doomunit.5462
  • TheCrumblyCrackerTheCrumblyCracker Registered User
    edited April 2007
    Angry wrote: »
    i specced combat daggers for about an hour after i got my shanker.

    pretty much the worst experience i've had in the game.



    Your tears sustain me.













    Seriously.

  • WavechaserWavechaser Registered User regular
    edited April 2007
    Angry wrote: »
    i specced combat daggers for about an hour after i got my shanker.

    pretty much the worst experience i've had in the game.

    Yeah Combat Daggers is for people who enjoy self mutilation. It's pretty much reserved for DPS whores who like to stroke their epeen while playing the most boring Rogue build ever conceived.

    PierceNeck wrote: »
    People still do the anal thing?
  • TheCrumblyCrackerTheCrumblyCracker Registered User
    edited April 2007
    Wavechaser wrote: »
    Angry wrote: »
    i specced combat daggers for about an hour after i got my shanker.

    pretty much the worst experience i've had in the game.

    Yeah Combat Daggers is for people who enjoy self mutilation. It's pretty much reserved for DPS whores who like to stroke their epeen while playing the most boring Rogue build ever conceived.

    PVE is so uncool nowadays. World PVP is where its at (ROFL), no one should spec a PvE build because you can't get good gear from there.

  • TransporterTransporter Registered User regular
    edited April 2007
    Wavechaser wrote: »
    Angry wrote: »
    i specced combat daggers for about an hour after i got my shanker.

    pretty much the worst experience i've had in the game.

    Yeah Combat Daggers is for people who enjoy self mutilation. It's pretty much reserved for DPS whores who like to stroke their penis while playing the most boring Rogue build ever conceived.

    Slight fix there.

  • AngryAngry Slang Pope Breakbeat MinisterRegistered User regular
    edited April 2007
    i still wear 4 pieces of assassination when raiding because my 'epics' are nothing more then a side grade and when set bonus is taken into consideration a downgrade.

    so yeah you got it pretty spot on.

    GW2: Doomunit.5462
  • SeptusSeptus Registered User regular
    edited April 2007
    Wavechaser wrote: »
    Angry wrote: »
    i specced combat daggers for about an hour after i got my shanker.

    pretty much the worst experience i've had in the game.

    Yeah Combat Daggers is for people who enjoy self mutilation. It's pretty much reserved for DPS whores who like to stroke their epeen while playing the most boring Rogue build ever conceived.

    Nothing more than stroking their epeens? I thought it was common practice among moderate to hardcore raiding guilds to spec for maximizing raiding usefulness. It's not like you'd suffer in 5 mans. You'd just be less flexible in solo pve(but still very effective, unlike a healing spec in solo pve), and mostly suffer a loss in pvp. The latter doesn't bother a great many players.

    rodq.jpg
  • TheCrumblyCrackerTheCrumblyCracker Registered User
    edited April 2007
    Angry wrote: »
    i still wear 4 pieces of assassination when raiding because my 'epics' are nothing more then a side grade and when set bonus is taken into consideration a downgrade.

    so yeah you got it pretty spot on.

    Yea a few bad itemized( most of tier 4 ) pieces makes all epic lewtz useless. I didn't know you could get assassination from PVP? Sure they are not from heroics, but I like giving it my all when my guild does them. Being PVE specd is not for everyone, but considering the state of the class (eg, Heroic BF = hell on Outlands for rogues) pushing your class to the envelope is required to not suck.(By suck I mean doing enough damage to compensate for the amount of healing we soak up)

  • korodullinkorodullin What. Registered User regular
    edited April 2007
    Wavechaser wrote: »
    Angry wrote: »
    i specced combat daggers for about an hour after i got my shanker.

    pretty much the worst experience i've had in the game.

    Yeah Combat Daggers is for people who enjoy self mutilation. It's pretty much reserved for DPS whores who like to stroke their epeen while playing the most boring Rogue build ever conceived.

    I find Combat Swords the most boring piece of shit ever.

    impale.png
    Steam
    3DS: 1822-0538-1100
  • TransporterTransporter Registered User regular
    edited April 2007
    korodullin wrote: »
    Wavechaser wrote: »
    Angry wrote: »
    i specced combat daggers for about an hour after i got my shanker.

    pretty much the worst experience i've had in the game.

    Yeah Combat Daggers is for people who enjoy self mutilation. It's pretty much reserved for DPS whores who like to stroke their epeen while playing the most boring Rogue build ever conceived.

    I find Combat Swords the most boring piece of shit ever.


    Well, that is your opinion, and your certainly entitled to it.

    However.

    GIGANTIC GOLD AND SILVER WANGS.

    Automatically invalidates anything you have ever said ever.

    Sorry about that.

  • WavechaserWavechaser Registered User regular
    edited April 2007
    Septus wrote: »
    Wavechaser wrote: »
    Angry wrote: »
    i specced combat daggers for about an hour after i got my shanker.

    pretty much the worst experience i've had in the game.

    Yeah Combat Daggers is for people who enjoy self mutilation. It's pretty much reserved for DPS whores who like to stroke their epeen while playing the most boring Rogue build ever conceived.

    Nothing more than stroking their epeens? I thought it was common practice among moderate to hardcore raiding guilds to spec for maximizing raiding usefulness. It's not like you'd suffer in 5 mans. You'd just be less flexible in solo pve(but still very effective, unlike a healing spec in solo pve), and mostly suffer a loss in pvp. The latter doesn't bother a great many players.

    The epeen stroking was a bitch harsh, but in all honesty Combat Daggers is so god damn boring that I just don't see any reason anyone would ever spec into it. There are so many alternatives for maximizing raid usefullness, sacrificing your fun in a class does not need to be one of them.

    Combat Swords/Fists/Whatever gives you DPS equal to a combat dagger build, but you have a lot more CP generation to play with (OMG there are finishers other than SnD!?!?). If you get a couple of slow daggers, 41,20,0 Mutilate offers excellent raid damage thanks to Dual Wield Spec.

    PierceNeck wrote: »
    People still do the anal thing?
  • AngryAngry Slang Pope Breakbeat MinisterRegistered User regular
    edited April 2007
    you don't need any points in combat for mutilate to be excellent raid damage. i was third on gruul with 682dps with 43/0/18.

    GW2: Doomunit.5462
  • SeptusSeptus Registered User regular
    edited April 2007
    Angry wrote: »
    you don't need any points in combat for mutilate to be excellent raid damage. i was third on gruul with 682dps with 43/0/18.

    I always thought the point of combat was to buff white damage, which makes up a vast portion of a rogue's damage.

    rodq.jpg
  • WavechaserWavechaser Registered User regular
    edited April 2007
    Angry wrote: »
    you don't need any points in combat for mutilate to be excellent raid damage. i was third on gruul with 682dps with 43/0/18.

    True, a 41,0,XX build is still good but definitely more geared towards PvP. In the long run the 41,20,0 build will beat the other Mutilate build on DPS. The only reason I didn't mention it was because people were referring to maximizing raid usefullness. While Mutilate definitely fills both roles, the combat tree is more geared for raiding situations.

    PierceNeck wrote: »
    People still do the anal thing?
  • AngryAngry Slang Pope Breakbeat MinisterRegistered User regular
    edited April 2007
    wouldn't 41/20/0 be able to beat combat dagger on any mob that wasn't poison immune?

    GW2: Doomunit.5462
  • TheCrumblyCrackerTheCrumblyCracker Registered User
    edited April 2007
    Angry wrote: »
    wouldn't 41/20/0 be able to beat combat dagger on any mob that wasn't poison immune?



    Don't know about that. I have tested it out on spreadsheets before (better then a dps meter any day IMO) and combat daggers beats out Mutilate. With a fast offhand combat potency is just to hot.

    Edit: If I am able to pick up a malchezen I really do want to try mutilate. Giving up my shiv would suck though, gogo mongoose :p

  • SerpicoSerpico Registered User
    edited April 2007
    I went combat daggers once. Over a year ago.
    Can't remember how it was tbh, but my notepad for all-things-to-remember has NEVER COMBAT DAGGERS AGAIN written on it.

    In other news, Mutilate is both good and fun in raids, although I slightly prefer combat swords (probably due to having Latro's with swords vs a shtty 66 dps dagger OH with mut.).
    Respecced 30/0/31 for PvP now since we're not raiding until next week and finally went arena for real (prevuiously I had shitty teams and 10 fights/week). In 3v3 we went 1515 rating - 1665 rating, I said stop but nooo. Back down to 1507 in what was the most epic crumbling ever, before we got our shit together, salvaged 1603 and called it a night. Ambush + BS + CB evis while mage PoM - pyros = lol. Only teams we had real trouble against was a full stealth team (no focus, ended 4 - 3 to us in matches) and some imba geared plate group (2 warr, pally) who must have been a fair bith higher than us.
    Joining a guildies 3v3 team next week (all 3 of us), he's on the #2 5v5 team with 2360 or so rating, so should be epic. He has (lock) 12 k hp and 950 shadow dmg :P Still beat him in duels though.

    Well that was too long.

  • WavechaserWavechaser Registered User regular
    edited April 2007
    Serpico wrote: »
    I went combat daggers once. Over a year ago.
    Can't remember how it was tbh, but my notepad for all-things-to-remember has NEVER COMBAT DAGGERS AGAIN written on it.

    In other news, Mutilate is both good and fun in raids, although I slightly prefer combat swords (probably due to having Latro's with swords vs a shtty 66 dps dagger OH with mut.).
    Respecced 30/0/31 for PvP now since we're not raiding until next week and finally went arena for real (prevuiously I had shitty teams and 10 fights/week). In 3v3 we went 1515 rating - 1665 rating, I said stop but nooo. Back down to 1507 in what was the most epic crumbling ever, before we got our shit together, salvaged 1603 and called it a night. Ambush + BS + CB evis while mage PoM - pyros = lol. Only teams we had real trouble against was a full stealth team (no focus, ended 4 - 3 to us in matches) and some imba geared plate group (2 warr, pally) who must have been a fair bith higher than us.
    Joining a guildies 3v3 team next week (all 3 of us), he's on the #2 5v5 team with 2360 or so rating, so should be epic. He has (lock) 12 k hp and 950 shadow dmg :P Still beat him in duels though.

    Well that was too long.

    If you have the gold for a respec, I highly suggest trying out shadowstep for PvP. I had shit daggers but was having a blast completely destroying people with huge crits. My kills to deaths ratio in AV was literally about 20 to 1 by the end of any given match.

    Just don't expect to raid with it. Raid damage is absolute crap for a shadowstep build IMO. I still think Mutilate is overall more effective, but god damn Shadowstep is nothing but good times.

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  • Venkman90Venkman90 Registered User regular
    edited April 2007
    Wavechaser wrote: »
    f you have the gold for a respec, I highly suggest trying out shadowstep for PvP. I had shit daggers but was having a blast completely destroying people with huge crits. My kills to deaths ratio in AV was literally about 20 to 1 by the end of any given match.

    Just don't expect to raid with it. Raid damage is absolute crap for a shadowstep build IMO. I still think Mutilate is overall more effective, but god damn Shadowstep is nothing but good times.

    Can't remember how to lime...so just use your imagination.

    Suffice to say that SS is rocking sox in PvP, I had to go back to Mutilate for Karazhan, but in the 2 weeks I peeveepee'd with a Shadowstep build...well I actually considered quiting PVE all together with my rogue and just becoming a blight upon the land, a whisper of impending peril.

    olol Premed - SS - Ambush - BS - CB - Evis - Next :P

  • exisexis Registered User regular
    edited April 2007
    I have decent daggers (Emerald Ripper and Whispering Blade of Slaying), and I was happy with my combat dagger spec for raiding. But now I've rerolled to my priest (holy), so I'm using my rogue to grind. I'd love to spec back to mutilate, but alot of my grinding is elementals for primals, so I can't use poisons. Think I should try vigor or something?

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  • Torque MonkeyTorque Monkey Registered User
    edited April 2007
    you don't need any points in combat for mutilate to be excellent raid damage. i was third on gruul with 682dps with 43/0/18.

    Gruul damage depends much more on positioning and strategy than spec for melee, though. For instance, if you use the ever so common safe spot strategy, staying in for Shatters or having a spot like, say, 5, is going to see a huge increase over someone who's running out to a spot by the door(12) or whatnot.

    Regardless, numbers will be much higher with the 20 extra points in Combat, rather than Subtlety.
    wouldn't 41/20/0 be able to beat combat dagger on any mob that wasn't poison immune?

    Quite unlikely, but possible. More than anything, it comes down to how lucky you are on your crits spreading out across Mutilate's. I did 41/20/0 for a good month and a half with Malch+ER, and I'd constantly go 6-10 without a crit, then get a double, and repeat. It made for either a lot of wasted combo points, or lost RS procs, neither of which are ever a good thing.
    Giving up my shiv would suck though, gogo mongoose :p

    While I can't confirm it from personal experience, using Pf's spreadsheet with a standard 41/20/0 build, going from Shiv to Shanker in offhand is a ~3DPS boost with my gear and the buffs(max raid) I have selected.

    You'd almost certainly be better off keeping the Shiv, especially considering you already have Mongoose on it, rather than switching to something like the Emerald Ripper.

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  • SerpicoSerpico Registered User
    edited April 2007
    Yeah, the difference in mutilate damage from offhand is pretty small, and when you consider poison procs, higher dps and a mongoose enchant, I'd say Shiv would be better. I'd personally miss those double-crits though.

    I am so damn annoyed at the blue PvP gloves needing AV marks, since I hate AV. 0 marks atm, and with the average AV lasting 3 hours+, and alliance mostly loosing, I haven't got the patience :( I guess I'll have to wait for gladiator's gloves in the far future (If I'm lucky our new 3v3 team will steamlol....yeah right).

    As for 30/0/31 vs shadowstep, it's not worth it in arenas. Quick recovery alone is too valuable to give up, add CB and your burst is just as good, and ofc I hate dagger specs w/o seal fate (but that's just preference).

  • DisruptorX2DisruptorX2 Registered User regular
    edited April 2007
    3 hours? Most AVs in my battlegroup last about 30 minutes.

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  • AngryAngry Slang Pope Breakbeat MinisterRegistered User regular
    edited April 2007
    Venkman90 wrote: »
    Wavechaser wrote: »
    f you have the gold for a respec, I highly suggest trying out shadowstep for PvP. I had shit daggers but was having a blast completely destroying people with huge crits. My kills to deaths ratio in AV was literally about 20 to 1 by the end of any given match.

    Just don't expect to raid with it. Raid damage is absolute crap for a shadowstep build IMO. I still think Mutilate is overall more effective, but god damn Shadowstep is nothing but good times.

    Can't remember how to lime...so just use your imagination.

    Suffice to say that SS is rocking sox in PvP, I had to go back to Mutilate for Karazhan, but in the 2 weeks I peeveepee'd with a Shadowstep build...well I actually considered quiting PVE all together with my rogue and just becoming a blight upon the land, a whisper of impending peril.

    olol Premed - SS - Ambush - BS - CB - Evis - Next :P

    for ganking and such ss is fine, but for arenas it's godawful.

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  • SerpicoSerpico Registered User
    edited April 2007
    AVs were 30 min alliance steamrolls for a while, when Battlegroups were new and everyone zerged past, but now it's back to endless matches that horde inevitably win. Every time I'm there atleast.

    Also 1741 rating wooo. I have no games this week though.

  • ShinyoShinyo Registered User regular
    edited April 2007
    Venkman90 wrote: »
    but in the 2 weeks I peeveepee'd with a Shadowstep build...well I actually considered quiting PVE all together with my rogue and just becoming a blight upon the land, a whisper of impending peril.

    ^^^

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