The US has some of the strongest free speech protections in the world. It takes a lot for someone to actually lose a slander/libel/etc case.
Well, the biggest thing is that in the US, the truth is an absolute defense. In a lot of other countries, it isn't, so you can tell the full truth and still get fucked over by the courts. (I know it's a different country, but the McLibel case was a great example of that.) Secondly, even if you prove that the person was lying, you then have to prove malice - either actual (the defendant wanted to hurt you) or reckless (the defendant showed depraved indifference regarding hurting you.) Finally, you have to show you were actually hurt - it's not uncommon to hear of someone successfully prosecuting a libel tort in the US only to receive damages of $1 (the legal system's way of saying "thanks for wasting our time, asshole.")
I caught a bit of this on the nightly news. According to the segment, she has several options, none of which seem very rosy:
Appeal the verdict. Given how badly this case was handled from the get-go and how none of that seemed to matter in the end, overturning the lower court decision seems unlikely (to me, anyway).
Serve the entire 26 years in a U.S. prison, without the possibility of parole (only if Italian authorities agree to a handover).
Serve time in an Italian prison in the hope of gaining a commuted sentence.
An American co-convicted of killing a Briton in Italy. No wonder it took two years to reach a verdict. The legal wrangling must've been staggering.
After having read about this case, I have concluded that it is held together by turds wrapped in red tape. Italy's court system is like a Rube Goldberg machine with galeas and gavels that gets interrupted near the end by a drunk Roman who just gave up on finding the bathroom.
After having read about this case, I have concluded that it is held together by turds wrapped in red tape. Italy's court system is like a Rube Goldberg machine with galeas and gavels that gets interrupted near the end by a drunk Roman who just gave up on finding the bathroom.
Pretty much. Of course, the "ugly American" issue probably didn't help either. In that aspect, I'm sort of reminded of the Corby case in Indonesia.
Its hardly surprising that American media coverage has portrayed her as being innocent. Same deal happens here when an attractive white girl is tried overseas. Everyone attacks the court system of whichever country it happens to be and makes the assumption that ours is the best and the only one that could ever deliver reasonable justice.
Its hardly surprising that American media coverage has portrayed her as being innocent. Same deal happens here when an attractive white girl is tried overseas. Everyone attacks the court system of whichever country it happens to be and makes the assumption that ours is the best and the only one that could ever deliver reasonable justice.
After the rape apologist verdict in Italy, it's not even remotely difficult to demonstrate that their system sucks. Let me be the first to tell you I am not a huge fan of the American court system, but it is miles and leagues ahead of this shit.
Paragon on
0
Casually HardcoreOnce an Asshole. Trying to be better.Registered Userregular
edited December 2009
I dont really know what to think about this case.
On one hand, we have the crowd screaming "She is white! She is pretty! She is innocent! It was that god damn black guy who did it!"
and
On the other hand, we have the crowd screaming "She's filthy American who think she can get away with everything!"
Eitherway, it appears to me that she's a bit on the batshit crazy end of things.
I guess the morale of the story is "Always know the safe word when you start having kinky sex with pointy sharp objects."
Its hardly surprising that American media coverage has portrayed her as being innocent. Same deal happens here when an attractive white girl is tried overseas. Everyone attacks the court system of whichever country it happens to be and makes the assumption that ours is the best and the only one that could ever deliver reasonable justice.
After the rape apologist verdict in Italy, it's not even remotely difficult to demonstrate that their system sucks. Let me be the first to tell you I am not a huge fan of the American court system, but it is miles and leagues ahead of this shit.
Seriously. Things like the glacial speed of the trial, the fact that the "jury" wasn't sequestered, etc. aren't "differences", they're obvious deficiencies. The US system may have its flaws (case in point - Grace, Nancy, and the career thereof), but at the least we understand that slow justice is no justice and that keeping a jury impartial is key.
"Her statement, at the end of an overnight without the assistance of either a lawyer or interpreter, interrogation was ruled inadmissible by Italy's highest court."
What the fuck? Seriously? Out of everything, this seems most ridiculous. I suppose they had they whole intimidation factor on their side (given that's what they were going for...), but why would Knox even say anything.
On one hand, we have the crowd screaming "She is white! She is pretty! She is innocent! It was that god damn nigga who did it!"
and
On the other hand, we have the crowd screaming "She's filthy American who think she can get away with everything!"
Eitherway, it appears to me that she's a bit on the batshit crazy end of things.
I guess the morale of the story is "Always know the safe word when you start having kinky sex with pointy sharp objects."
I almost think that they whole 'pretty and innocent' thing is irrelevant nowadays. Does anyone really go for that with a girl of her age? I do understand the 'filthy American' train of thought though.
But, yes, I agree that Knox must have had a few screws loose. :P
So she's already been in jail for 2 years before being found guilty. That seems like a double whammy. I mean, what happens if she were to be found innocent? Sorry for unnecessarily wasting 2 years of your life because we didn't want to inconvenience ourselves with a reasonably paced trial?
So she's already been in jail for 2 years before being found guilty. That seems like a double whammy. I mean, what happens if she were to be found innocent? Sorry for unnecessarily wasting 2 years of your life because we didn't want to inconvenience ourselves with a reasonably paced trial?
She gets to leave with a complimentary computer simulation of what her life would have been like if they hadn't held her in jail for two years.
So It Goes on
0
BarcardiAll the WizardsUnder A Rock: AfganistanRegistered Userregular
edited December 2009
Anyone that is interested in this case should read The Monster of Florance. It is about essentially the killings that inspired the hannable lecter series, in italy. Only it turns out there was a police power grab as well, projecting the people that just put Knox in jail, into power.
During past events they plated evidence, accused over 15 people of a serial killing, claimed a cult was responcible, claimed the journalist that uncovered police corruption was the murderer, bullied and bribed witnesses, just made up evidence on the spot... and on and on and on.
edit: bonus, dispite all of that they never caught the killer
tldr this is a massive police ego search + xenophobia + a prosecutor that believes psychics can predict killings ++ i am not sure that he is still being prosecuted, but the prosecutor is under investigation for corruption
Preston gives us a troubling afterword on Amanda Knox. She’s on trial for the murder of Meredith Kercher, a murder which it is highly unlikely that either she or her boyfriend had anything to do with. She has been demonised by the media (inside and outside Italy) to a horrible extent, in ways which put (or should put) the journalists involved to shame. Lied to in the course of interrogations (coordinated and led by Mignini), allegedly mistreated both physically and psychologically, not given access to a lawyer or a translator, the American student seems to have been effectively set up. Mignini, true to form, has been throwing around accusations of “rites” and dark forces in his case against her. It’s a case which requires an acceptance of hysterical, gothic improbabilities in order to stand up. The alternatives, which Preston goes through calmly and carefully, seem to make a hell of a lot more sense.
So she's already been in jail for 2 years before being found guilty. That seems like a double whammy. I mean, what happens if she were to be found innocent? Sorry for unnecessarily wasting 2 years of your life because we didn't want to inconvenience ourselves with a reasonably paced trial?
She gets to leave with a complimentary computer simulation of what her life would have been like if they hadn't held her in jail for two years.
I like that. A LOT.
But, it would have been unreasonable to just let her go, while she is being charged for murder. What is wrong with this situation is that the trial should not have taken that long.
I saw a news report on this case about 6 months back. Pretty sure it was a 60 minutes-esque show. Definitely American-based, regardless.
I can't remember the specifics, but I was just appalled by the way their police/court systems are setup. The Lead Prosecutor dude is notorious for witch hunts, apparently, and during the Knox trial was facing charges of his own. I'm pretty sure that over here in North America that wouldn't be allowed.
Needless to say he's a dodgy fuck, and was like a rabid dog with this case, according to the news report.
saint2e on
0
BarcardiAll the WizardsUnder A Rock: AfganistanRegistered Userregular
I saw a news report on this case about 6 months back. Pretty sure it was a 60 minutes-esque show. Definitely American-based, regardless.
I can't remember the specifics, but I was just appalled by the way their police/court systems are setup. The Lead Prosecutor dude is notorious for witch hunts, apparently, and during the Knox trial was facing charges of his own. I'm pretty sure that over here in North America that wouldn't be allowed.
Needless to say he's a dodgy fuck, and was like a rabid dog with this case, according to the news report.
Witch hunts? That is so absurd that I can't help but love it.
Absolutely everything seems wrong with the was the case went down.
I saw a news report on this case about 6 months back. Pretty sure it was a 60 minutes-esque show. Definitely American-based, regardless.
I can't remember the specifics, but I was just appalled by the way their police/court systems are setup. The Lead Prosecutor dude is notorious for witch hunts, apparently, and during the Knox trial was facing charges of his own. I'm pretty sure that over here in North America that wouldn't be allowed.
Needless to say he's a dodgy fuck, and was like a rabid dog with this case, according to the news report.
Witch hunts? That is so absurd that I can't help but love it.
Absolutely everything seems wrong with the was the case went down.
I should've put quotes around "witch hunts". Apparently he believes that spirits reveal guilty people to him or some such. I'm trying to find info on it.
I should've put quotes around "witch hunts". Apparently he believes that spirits reveal guilty people to him or some such. I'm trying to find info on it.
Okay, that makes me love the situation even harder.
I should've put quotes around "witch hunts". Apparently he believes that spirits reveal guilty people to him or some such. I'm trying to find info on it.
Okay, that makes me love the situation even harder.
I should've put quotes around "witch hunts". Apparently he believes that spirits reveal guilty people to him or some such. I'm trying to find info on it.
Okay, that makes me love the situation even harder.
Sounds like Phoenix Wright in IRL?
If this guy hangs out with underage girls, that would be uncanny.
I should've put quotes around "witch hunts". Apparently he believes that spirits reveal guilty people to him or some such. I'm trying to find info on it.
Okay, that makes me love the situation even harder.
Sounds like Phoenix Wright in IRL?
Yeah.
This is the new angle that the developers should take up in the Phoenix Wright games. Set it up in Italy, stack the situation against the lawyer even more so, make the lawyer have to deal with the non sequestering, the aggressiveness of the prosecution, and all of the other things that make the system completely insane.
Why would this work? Primarily because they could have Phoenix show up in the middle of famous trials in Italian history and turn them around.
I know that this isn't precisely related to what you wrote, but the idea came from that post.
Also, yeah, broken justice system steeped in insane antiquity + broken media primarily owned by the Prime Minister = fucked up country.
Italy has a functional government now? Color me surprised. I thought they would never again have a governing coalition.
Well, if by "functioning" you mean the Prime Minister is a many time convicted felon who just happens to own most of the media in the country, I guess?
enlightenedbum on
Self-righteousness is incompatible with coalition building.
Italy has a functional government now? Color me surprised. I thought they would never again have a governing coalition.
Well, if by "functioning" you mean the Prime Minister is a many time convicted felon who just happens to own most of the media in the country, I guess?
Well if it's capable of collecting taxes, making and enforcing laws then that's loads better than the last time I checked up on Italy.
Italy has a functional government now? Color me surprised. I thought they would never again have a governing coalition.
Well, if by "functioning" you mean the Prime Minister is a many time convicted felon who just happens to own most of the media in the country, I guess?
Also trying to legislate his own immunity to prosecutions.
Anyway, the trial seems pretty fucked up, certainly by American standards of due process (well, pre-Bush standards).
It seems pretty fucked up by 2009 American standards, and pretty much any other American standards not involving witches. Start with the non-sequestering of the jury in such a high-profile case.
We have really crappy standards at the moment. Though I suppose as long as you're not Muslim they're ok.
I would say it's more we have crappy instances. Which Italy also does, and this is one of them.
For example, when
- the "victim's DNA on the knife" claim consists of a sample too small to be properly tested
- the defense is not allowed to challenge said DNA evidence
- the knife itself doesn't match a knife-shaped bloodstain from the crime scene
- experts testify that 2 of the 3 knife wounds could not have possibly been committed with the knife
- the knife is still used as the primary forensic evdience against the defendant
That would be a crappy instance.
And in terms of railroadings in the US, it's probably more dangerous to be a young black male than a Muslim.
"Her statement, at the end of an overnight without the assistance of either a lawyer or interpreter, interrogation was ruled inadmissible by Italy's highest court."
What the fuck? Seriously? Out of everything, this seems most ridiculous. I suppose they had they whole intimidation factor on their side (given that's what they were going for...), but why would Knox even say anything.
The defense alleged that she was subjected to a 14 hour interrogation by police and the DA (the guy under indictment for intimidation), which included verbal and physical abuse. The police first said they lost the tape of the questioning, then later changed their position to "the questioning was not taped." The police also never provided a transcript of the questioning.
On one hand, we have the crowd screaming "She is white! She is pretty! She is innocent! It was that god damn black guy who did it!"
The "god damn black guy" had DNA and fingerprints all over the crime scene, including on the victim's body and in the victim's blood. He also fled the country, he was picked up in Germany.
I suppose I just find it difficult to lecture other countries on their legal systems when we've decided we can detain people indefinitely without charges and the President has "post-acquittal detention authority."
Anyway, that's another thread.
enlightenedbum on
Self-righteousness is incompatible with coalition building.
Its hardly surprising that American media coverage has portrayed her as being innocent. Same deal happens here when an attractive white girl is tried overseas. Everyone attacks the court system of whichever country it happens to be and makes the assumption that ours is the best and the only one that could ever deliver reasonable justice.
After the rape apologist verdict in Italy, it's not even remotely difficult to demonstrate that their system sucks. Let me be the first to tell you I am not a huge fan of the American court system, but it is miles and leagues ahead of this shit.
I wasn't meaning to suggest that the Italian justice system is anything but terrible, my point was that these things follow a very familiar media narrative. Also your system tortures people and imprisons people indefinitely without trial so its only really miles ahead if you're not a Muslim.
I suppose I just find it difficult to lecture other countries on their legal systems when we've decided we can detain people indefinitely without charges and the President has "post-acquittal detention authority."
Anyway, that's another thread.
All justice systems are messed up in some manner. That doesn't mean that having someone run a trial like a 15th century inquisition is okay.
I suppose I just find it difficult to lecture other countries on their legal systems when we've decided we can detain people indefinitely without charges and the President has "post-acquittal detention authority."
I'm not trying to lecture Italy. For all I know, the trial was fucked up by Italian standards as well.
Gitmo is pretty fucked up by American standards too, Team Bush regularly got their ass kicked in federal court over it.
I suppose I just find it difficult to lecture other countries on their legal systems when we've decided we can detain people indefinitely without charges and the President has "post-acquittal detention authority."
Anyway, that's another thread.
All justice systems are messed up in some manner. That doesn't mean that having someone run a trial like a 15th century inquisition is okay.
It's not okay, it's just... a little skeevy. I dunno, I'm discomforted by it.
enlightenedbum on
Self-righteousness is incompatible with coalition building.
The US has some of the strongest free speech protections in the world. It takes a lot for someone to actually lose a slander/libel/etc case.
This is true, but I still consider "passing the buck," "pointing the finger," and attempting to shift blame or deflect any negativity away from you, an immoral and unethical thing to do.
The question should be: "Why did Knox choose this course of action?" I find it to be highly suspicious.
I suppose I just find it difficult to lecture other countries on their legal systems when we've decided we can detain people indefinitely without charges and the President has "post-acquittal detention authority."
Anyway, that's another thread.
All justice systems are messed up in some manner. That doesn't mean that having someone run a trial like a 15th century inquisition is okay.
It's not okay, it's just... a little skeevy. I dunno, I'm discomforted by it.
You have a strong feelings about hypocrisy. Pretty sure that's a good thing, man. Mine aren't as strong, and I'm a worse person for it (in general, not comparison).
I suppose I just find it difficult to lecture other countries on their legal systems when we've decided we can detain people indefinitely without charges and the President has "post-acquittal detention authority."
Anyway, that's another thread.
All justice systems are messed up in some manner. That doesn't mean that having someone run a trial like a 15th century inquisition is okay.
It's not okay, it's just... a little skeevy. I dunno, I'm discomforted by it.
You have a strong feelings about hypocrisy. Pretty sure that's a good thing, man. Mine aren't as strong, and I'm a worse person for it (in general, not comparison).
I particularly am grossed out by American exceptionalism.
enlightenedbum on
Self-righteousness is incompatible with coalition building.
The US has some of the strongest free speech protections in the world. It takes a lot for someone to actually lose a slander/libel/etc case.
This is true, but I still consider "passing the buck," "pointing the finger," and attempting to shift blame or deflect any negativity away from you, an immoral and unethical thing to do.
The question should be: "Why did Knox choose this course of action?" I find it to be highly suspicious.
What? Suggesting an alternate theory of the crime should be Defense 101. It's like the definition of reasonable doubt.
HamHamJ on
While racing light mechs, your Urbanmech comes in second place, but only because it ran out of ammo.
Its hardly surprising that American media coverage has portrayed her as being innocent. Same deal happens here when an attractive white girl is tried overseas. Everyone attacks the court system of whichever country it happens to be and makes the assumption that ours is the best and the only one that could ever deliver reasonable justice.
After the rape apologist verdict in Italy, it's not even remotely difficult to demonstrate that their system sucks. Let me be the first to tell you I am not a huge fan of the American court system, but it is miles and leagues ahead of this shit.
I wasn't meaning to suggest that the Italian justice system is anything but terrible, my point was that these things follow a very familiar media narrative. Also your system tortures people and imprisons people indefinitely without trial so its only really miles ahead if you're not a Muslim.
It is not my system (I'm Norwegian).
What you are saying is true; a suspected Muslim terrorist is even worse off than this girl is.
If it was up to me, Bush and everyone involved would have been in jail now for the atrocities that went on in Gitmo.
Posts
Well, the biggest thing is that in the US, the truth is an absolute defense. In a lot of other countries, it isn't, so you can tell the full truth and still get fucked over by the courts. (I know it's a different country, but the McLibel case was a great example of that.) Secondly, even if you prove that the person was lying, you then have to prove malice - either actual (the defendant wanted to hurt you) or reckless (the defendant showed depraved indifference regarding hurting you.) Finally, you have to show you were actually hurt - it's not uncommon to hear of someone successfully prosecuting a libel tort in the US only to receive damages of $1 (the legal system's way of saying "thanks for wasting our time, asshole.")
An American co-convicted of killing a Briton in Italy. No wonder it took two years to reach a verdict. The legal wrangling must've been staggering.
Pretty much. Of course, the "ugly American" issue probably didn't help either. In that aspect, I'm sort of reminded of the Corby case in Indonesia.
After the rape apologist verdict in Italy, it's not even remotely difficult to demonstrate that their system sucks. Let me be the first to tell you I am not a huge fan of the American court system, but it is miles and leagues ahead of this shit.
On one hand, we have the crowd screaming "She is white! She is pretty! She is innocent! It was that god damn black guy who did it!"
and
On the other hand, we have the crowd screaming "She's filthy American who think she can get away with everything!"
Eitherway, it appears to me that she's a bit on the batshit crazy end of things.
I guess the morale of the story is "Always know the safe word when you start having kinky sex with pointy sharp objects."
Seriously. Things like the glacial speed of the trial, the fact that the "jury" wasn't sequestered, etc. aren't "differences", they're obvious deficiencies. The US system may have its flaws (case in point - Grace, Nancy, and the career thereof), but at the least we understand that slow justice is no justice and that keeping a jury impartial is key.
What the fuck? Seriously? Out of everything, this seems most ridiculous. I suppose they had they whole intimidation factor on their side (given that's what they were going for...), but why would Knox even say anything.
I almost think that they whole 'pretty and innocent' thing is irrelevant nowadays. Does anyone really go for that with a girl of her age? I do understand the 'filthy American' train of thought though.
But, yes, I agree that Knox must have had a few screws loose. :P
She gets to leave with a complimentary computer simulation of what her life would have been like if they hadn't held her in jail for two years.
During past events they plated evidence, accused over 15 people of a serial killing, claimed a cult was responcible, claimed the journalist that uncovered police corruption was the murderer, bullied and bribed witnesses, just made up evidence on the spot... and on and on and on.
edit: bonus, dispite all of that they never caught the killer
Here is an author interview on what he thinks of the knox case, and its similarities.
http://blog.seattlepi.com/dempsey/archives/131443.asp
Here is a short description of The Monster of Florance fiasco
http://keithridgway.com/?tag=giuliano-mignini
here is the bbc talking about it before they got carried away
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7883286.stm
tldr this is a massive police ego search + xenophobia + a prosecutor that believes psychics can predict killings ++ i am not sure that he is still being prosecuted, but the prosecutor is under investigation for corruption
I like that. A LOT.
But, it would have been unreasonable to just let her go, while she is being charged for murder. What is wrong with this situation is that the trial should not have taken that long.
I can't remember the specifics, but I was just appalled by the way their police/court systems are setup. The Lead Prosecutor dude is notorious for witch hunts, apparently, and during the Knox trial was facing charges of his own. I'm pretty sure that over here in North America that wouldn't be allowed.
Needless to say he's a dodgy fuck, and was like a rabid dog with this case, according to the news report.
this... a bit dramaticy, but yea.
Witch hunts? That is so absurd that I can't help but love it.
Absolutely everything seems wrong with the was the case went down.
I should've put quotes around "witch hunts". Apparently he believes that spirits reveal guilty people to him or some such. I'm trying to find info on it.
Thank you, I believe this is what I saw.
http://www.amazon.com/Monster-Florence-Douglas-Preston/dp/0446581275/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1259993991&sr=8-1
Damn, 42 minutes is too much of a time commitment for me right now.
Okay, that makes me love the situation even harder.
If this guy hangs out with underage girls, that would be uncanny.
Yeah.
This is the new angle that the developers should take up in the Phoenix Wright games. Set it up in Italy, stack the situation against the lawyer even more so, make the lawyer have to deal with the non sequestering, the aggressiveness of the prosecution, and all of the other things that make the system completely insane.
Why would this work? Primarily because they could have Phoenix show up in the middle of famous trials in Italian history and turn them around.
I know that this isn't precisely related to what you wrote, but the idea came from that post.
Also, yeah, broken justice system steeped in insane antiquity + broken media primarily owned by the Prime Minister = fucked up country.
Well, if by "functioning" you mean the Prime Minister is a many time convicted felon who just happens to own most of the media in the country, I guess?
Well if it's capable of collecting taxes, making and enforcing laws then that's loads better than the last time I checked up on Italy.
Also trying to legislate his own immunity to prosecutions.
I would say it's more we have crappy instances. Which Italy also does, and this is one of them.
For example, when
- the "victim's DNA on the knife" claim consists of a sample too small to be properly tested
- the defense is not allowed to challenge said DNA evidence
- the knife itself doesn't match a knife-shaped bloodstain from the crime scene
- experts testify that 2 of the 3 knife wounds could not have possibly been committed with the knife
- the knife is still used as the primary forensic evdience against the defendant
That would be a crappy instance.
And in terms of railroadings in the US, it's probably more dangerous to be a young black male than a Muslim.
The defense alleged that she was subjected to a 14 hour interrogation by police and the DA (the guy under indictment for intimidation), which included verbal and physical abuse. The police first said they lost the tape of the questioning, then later changed their position to "the questioning was not taped." The police also never provided a transcript of the questioning.
The "god damn black guy" had DNA and fingerprints all over the crime scene, including on the victim's body and in the victim's blood. He also fled the country, he was picked up in Germany.
Anyway, that's another thread.
I wasn't meaning to suggest that the Italian justice system is anything but terrible, my point was that these things follow a very familiar media narrative. Also your system tortures people and imprisons people indefinitely without trial so its only really miles ahead if you're not a Muslim.
All justice systems are messed up in some manner. That doesn't mean that having someone run a trial like a 15th century inquisition is okay.
I'm not trying to lecture Italy. For all I know, the trial was fucked up by Italian standards as well.
Gitmo is pretty fucked up by American standards too, Team Bush regularly got their ass kicked in federal court over it.
It's not okay, it's just... a little skeevy. I dunno, I'm discomforted by it.
This is true, but I still consider "passing the buck," "pointing the finger," and attempting to shift blame or deflect any negativity away from you, an immoral and unethical thing to do.
The question should be: "Why did Knox choose this course of action?" I find it to be highly suspicious.
You have a strong feelings about hypocrisy. Pretty sure that's a good thing, man. Mine aren't as strong, and I'm a worse person for it (in general, not comparison).
I particularly am grossed out by American exceptionalism.
What? Suggesting an alternate theory of the crime should be Defense 101. It's like the definition of reasonable doubt.
It is not my system (I'm Norwegian).
What you are saying is true; a suspected Muslim terrorist is even worse off than this girl is.
If it was up to me, Bush and everyone involved would have been in jail now for the atrocities that went on in Gitmo.