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Amanda Knox, acquitted of murder - Italian court orders new trial after appeal
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lol italy
A scenario based on comic books, vampires and machismo.
Sounds like an iron-clad case to me. If it was being held in the 1800s.
Please, the 1800s would have laughed at this argument. I'm not sure the people at Salem would have convicted.
Could you point out the bit where I said that "therefore, this incidence is entirely justified", please?
Imagination is so not the word you're looking for. A deduction based on evidence might rely on some degree of ingenuity in order to connect the dots, but outright imagination shouldn't enter into the picture at all. A lawyer who relies on imagination to make his or her case would, I feel, have to be putting forward a very weak case indeed.
At any rate, they're convicted on the evidence and its probable meaning, not imagination.
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I don't think it would be entirely unlikely for a prosecutor to ask a jury to imagine a scenario and ask them to convict if they believe that, based on the evidence before them, this scenario seems plausible.
Based on the evidence is the key phrase.
That key phrase is what is missing in this case.
They're not convicting based on their imaginations, though. They're convicting based on the evidence. The imagination is just there to help you understand what the evidence means.
Anyway, this feels like a semantics argument now.
The point is that this conviction, which relies on imagined scenarios that changed multiple times over the course of the case and had weak backing evidence, is not at all like the average murder trial where there's substantial evidence supporting the prosecution.
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I see a huge problem with that. It has to be beyond a reasonable doubt that a scenario happened.
You don't know that! You're just knee jerking!
Amanda Knox also changd her story multiple times, so that by itself is hardly an admission of wrongdoing.
Would have been a better post, then?
I have mentioned that in a previous post in the tree, yes.
I don't see how you can draw a comparison.
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Because ITALY! FUCK YEAH!
This.
There's this really infantile (yes, knee jerk) reaction going on how because she's American and because the prosecution supposedly did a few cock ups magically makes her innocent.
What i've been trying to say (maybe i've been too subtle) is that no one here has seen the evidence except the jury, maybe she's innocent, maybe she's guilty.. but there is this wholly ridiculous reaction going on, I mean.. seriously.. people are so eager here to mention some prosecution shenanigans but seem to be purposefully ignoring the other side of the coin like her repeatedly changing her story.
Again, to emphasize this: I do not care whether she is innocent, guilty or the easter bunny. My constant view on all of this is that there's a ridiculous view going on of "Italy bad! America good! She good!".
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I've got a spare copy of Portal, if anyone wants it message me.
Well, if both sides in a court case change their stories, then can we say that changing your story is indicative of anything?
Just the colors. I don't know if it is supposed to be more formal or what.
We can say it is indicative that we aren't sure what the hell happened, especially if the evidence is pretty flimsy.
Again, proving my point. Want to know why that is? Because it's required by law, it's like in a British court the judge and solicitors are required to wear a wig and robe. It's a traditional thing and in Italy it only happens during sentencing.
Seriously people, totally ridiculous knee jerk reactions.
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I've got a spare copy of Portal, if anyone wants it message me.
She, a 20-year-old girl, changed her story once after 14 straight hours of abuse.
Apart from the fact that you should probably hold the prosecution and the defense to a different standard since the prosecution has the burden of proof, you should definitely hold the defendant to a different standard than the prosecution. Their roles are completely different, as are what we can and should expect from them. If a defendant proves to be absolutely incompetent, that doesn't say anything about their guilt. If a prosecution demonstrates severe flaws in its reasoning and performance, however, then it is a sign that the defendant's guilt is seriously in question.
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Ah, well thanks for explaining that.
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That didn't prove any point at all. I was making a joke based on AMERICA FUCK YEAH
So, no point proven. Still.
Not that it's much of a difference.
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If a prosecutor is incompetent, that is proof of innocence?
Guilt and innocence are immutable facts that exist independent of any legal system, not dependent on anything that happens in the courtroom.
It doesn't seem like anyone is talking about innocence, people are talking about how screwed up the trial was.
dappled sunlight / strikes your butt
girl you got a / real sweet butt
Okay, I know it's not relevant, but this does bother me.
Second World nations are nations that were aligned with the Communist Bloc. Even if Italy sucks, it doesn't become a Second World Nation. It just becomes a shitty First World Nation. The definition has very little to do with standard of living, and everything to do with political alignment. Iran under the Shah was a First World nation, despite having a standard of living several times more godawful than, say, Yugoslavia or the USSR in the same time period. Taiwan was a First World Nation while it was dirt poor, because communism was illegal there.
TL;DR--that is not how the Second World works!
In Europe a lot of law is very old and is usually ignored, seriously for example. In the case of wigs, sashes etc it's more in the lax law area. As in, at the most you're going to get a verbal spanking from a judge at most. Some judges probably just don't care because it's just a sash, hence why a couple of them not even wearing it. Hence, it's more tradition than anything else.
EDIT: You have to remember that a lot of the countries in Europe have built up lots of laws over time, our countries are a lot older than the US so we're likely to accumulate "cruft" type law. Some kind of just developed into traditions, here's another example.. the UK cannot go to war without the permission of the Queen (this is by law) however that's purely ceremonial tradition the parliament really decides on that.
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I've got a spare copy of Portal, if anyone wants it message me.
I only called Knox incompetent.
And while guilt and innocence aren't dependent on what happens in the courtroom, surely whether or not a defendant is found to be guilty or innocent is dependent on just that. As such, when the prosecution can't make a good case, it does make sense to find the defendant innocent. That's exactly what you're supposed to do.
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I love this. Its so ridiculous.
Has anyone in this thread actually said they believe her to be innocent?
I haven't talked about Knox's guilt or innocence, nor said that the trial wasn't screwed up.
Again, I haven't claimed that this was truly indicative of anything.
dappled sunlight / strikes your butt
girl you got a / real sweet butt
Did I say anyone was saying that? Seriously, there's some just plain silly Italy bashing going on, at most i've seen a couple of people say "hold on, what about what she said?" whilst the rest has been Italy bashing.
Don't get me wrong, i'd be the first to jump on the conga wagon that is Italy bashing.. but some of it is just plain silly.
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I've got a spare copy of Portal, if anyone wants it message me.
You ignored the extenuating circumstances and the difference between her role and duties and those of the prosecution in order to draw a comparison between a change in her story and the multiple stories of the prosecution.
This warranted bringing up the extenuating circumstances in order to highlight the absurdity of your comparison.
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You're the one who brought up the incompetent prosecutor as proof of innocence thing, so... yes you did?
dappled sunlight / strikes your butt
girl you got a / real sweet butt
It doesn't say anything about her innocence -- It merely derides Italy's court system.
The 'Italy bashing' that I see is really 'Italian court system bashing' which is quite natural given their court system.
Relevant quotes:
1) On the prosecution's weak evidence -
Then there is that speck of DNA on the top of the blade that is supposed to be Meredith's. But the Italian forensic lab says it has only a 20 percent probability of being hers. That is only one out of five.
So the police say, "Oh, the knife shows traces of bleach so it must have been washed to hide the crime."
But in Italy, as in the U.S., many dishwashing detergents contain bleach. Hence the unsurprising discovery of bleach on the knife.
Another example: Amanda lived in that little house. Her DNA is everywhere. It is mingled in with everything. So any blood on a surface in the apartment has a good chance of mingling with her pre-existing DNA.
Finally, some of the crucial forensic evidence was gathered a month after the murder, when the murder scene had been unaccountably rearranged and spoiled by incompetent investigators.
2. On the prosecutor's history of pushing insane conspiracy theories -
Let me give you an example of this. My co-writer Spezi and I believe the Monster of Florence is a lone psychopath. He killed seven couples, fourteen people. He mutilated the women and cut off their sex organs. Really horrifying.
A psychological profile prepared by the American FBI of the Monster stated that he is a lone killer. All the Italian forensic psychologists stated he was a lone killer. And all the evidence gathered at the crime scenes pointed to a single perpetrator.
But this is too simple for Mignini. He believes the Monster killings were the work not of a lone killer but a satanic sect dating back to the Middle Ages. His theory, based on nonexistent evidence, supposition and conspiracy logic, was that this sect was operating in high places in government and they needed female body parts to perform Black Masses.
3. On Amanda changing her story -
You have no idea what it is like to be interrogated. It is a frightening experience. It is easy to break you down.
Mignini interrogated me for two hours, demanding I confess to a crime I did not commit, and it was terrifying. He is a powerful interrogator.
I could imagine what would happen to a 20-year-old who has been pressured for 14 hours. She could break down and say things, anything, just to stop the interrogation. They really browbeat you.
You should probably stick to making specific complaints rather than vaguely alluding to misguided nationalism and expecting us to not interpret that as a response to the other conversations going on in this thread.
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