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Robots, AI, and how we treat them

PonyPony Registered User regular
edited January 2010 in Debate and/or Discourse
So, this was linked to me by a buddy of mine:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i7NhBEx6Ank

It's nothing really amazing, in and of itself. It's a Real-Doll with some upgrades to make noise and a few other features. It's certainly not a sex-droid on par with what is seen in sci-fi.

But it's a step. It's a step towards things you and I are likely to see in our lifetime.

Ultimately, something like in the above video is a masturbatory aid. It's on the same level as fleshlights, Real-Dolls, and a watermelon lightly heated in the microwave with a hole cut in it.

Doesn't have any appeal to me, but some people are into that sort of thing in the privacy of their own bedroom and stuff. That's fine. If you are the sort of dude who finds your own hand insufficient and needs a device or a machine, well, that's your business.

But here's the thing: This is the beginning of "progress" in a certain direction.

A direction of fuckable robots.

While the above "robot" is barely such, that won't always be the case. Progress marches on, and so on. People will build on ideas like this, advance them, refine them.

There's a market for sex-droids. We all know there is. Even if that market doesn't include you, and doesn't include me, it includes lots of people and if there's a reasonable market for something, eventually people will come along and develop product for that market.

So, as progress marches on, eventually these kinds of sex-bots will become ambulatory. They will have movement, expression, and more deep and complex capabilities for expressions and programmable... "interests".

This is just a thing that's going to happen.

Here's my issue with this sort of thing: While most people are familiar with the "Uncanny Valley" as it relates to the appearance of not-human things trying to look human, there's also an intelligence Uncanny Valley.

Any kind of sex-robot is going to need some kind of programmed behavior. They're going to need some kind of rudimentary "AI", even if on the most basic level that AI is just "play moan.wav once entered"

As these sorts of machines are developed to have more mechanical functions, they will have more software complexity as well.

Where that intelligence Uncanny Valley comes in is when you have created a robotic facsimile of a human that can exhibit an eerily similar approximation of human behaviors, but without being aware of them or really "feeling" them in any sapient way.

It wouldn't be a person, it would be a machine, but it would appear to act and move like a person. It doesn't even have to be to the level that it can pass a Turing Test to be creepy as fuck on a primal emotional level for a lot of people (myself included!) but what is more important to me is the ethical questions these things start to raise when you get to that level.

I'm not talking about "robotic people". I'm not talking about sentient and sapient AI that are capable of saying "Why do I exist?" I'm not chicken-littling over the idea of one day our sex-droids "going Skynet" or some damn thing.

That's sci-fi. The likelihood of us seeing human-equivalent AI in our lifetime is not exactly high, and isn't a component of what I am talking about here.

No, what I'm talking about is a much closer point we are rapidly approaching in artificial intelligence and robotics: Machines that are capable of appearing sentient, sapient, emotional, or otherwise "feeling", regardless of the objectivity of asking whether or not such things are "real".

Consider this: You have a robot that is capable of moving and vocally responding to sex as if it was a person. It's not going to pass any kind of Turing muster, but it's pretty close. Some dude owns, and fucks, this robot. Really, this isn't much different than an overly complex real-doll or fleshlight.

Now, given public sensibilities about privacy and not wanting to gross out your friends and neighbors, chances are most people who own a thing like this are going to keep it out of sight when it's not in use, and it's likely he'll never speak of it to his friends or anything.

Again, reasonable, and not much different than the masturbatory aids we have today.

There's not much in the way of ethical issues at work here. If the dude just sorta leaves his sex-bot lying out on the couch naked with semen stains on it when company comes over, or insists that his friends acknowledge his sex-droid as his "girlfriend", obviously reasonable people are going to find him an unpleasant creep and shit, but that's no different than a guy leaving his sticky porn mags on the coffee table when he invites you over or something. Creeps are creeps. Owning a sex-droid wouldn't necessarily make him a creep, especially if you never know about it.

But, there's icky places this starts to go.

Say, for example, this fellow has his sex-droid designed to move and vocally respond as if it's being raped, instead of simple consensual sex? That's a fetish for him, and he's had his robot programmed to respond to that and act in a way that fulfills his fetish. People have rape fetishes. These people exist, and might be more numerous than you think. For the most part, these people are more fascinated with the idea of rape, rather than the actual act, and won't actually become a rapist and wouldn't want to be raped for real.

But they'll watch simulated rape porn, and jerk it while fantasizing about rape. This might make you recoil in disgust (I know it makes me sick!) but the reality is that many of these people are just fantasizing, and are no more likely to actually rape someone as anyone else. They won't watch actual footage of rape, but things designed to emulate it certainly turns their crank.

Watching rape-simulation porn, or even fucking a sex-bot designed to emulate being raped, isn't the equivalent to rape of a human being. The robot, in this example, isn't a person. It doesn't have sentient or sapient intelligence, it's not even comparable to an animal.

Yet, is fucking a sex-droid that is emulating being raped the same thing as simulated rape porn? The argument that people make in defense of things like simulated rape porn is that it isn't real. And certainly, the sex-droid isn't really being raped.

However, we are creatures motivated by our sensory responses. If the robot can emulate the physical and vocal responses of a rape victim, at what point does your "it's not real!" defense become a little shakey? It's one thing to look at images of something, knowing it's actors performing and not real, but it seems like it's quite another to start directly emulating the act yourself on an object.

People's grips on the "real" are not as iron-clad as some folk might romantically like to think. While I'm not arguing that a person who jerks it to simulated rape porn, or "rapes" a sex robot, is de facto on the road to becoming a rapist... I think it would be a little naive to say that it's impossible that this sort of line-blurring via machines won't result in... something deplorable.

Human beings are empathetic. We empathize with each other. Despite what some folk might like to argue, the primary motivation for ethical human behavior isn't fear of divine retribution. People don't need necessarily churches or religions to be moral. They just need society and culture to reinforce their basic emotional capacity to feel compassion for others.

If a person surronds themselves with sensory input that is directly contrary to this, it is in fact very possible it will damage their ability to adequately empathize with others. This is the "desensitization" argument, essentially.

I'm not Jack Thompson or something, arguing that "murder simulators" are going to turn our children into spree-shooters. I'm not even arguing that people who jerk it to simulated rape porn are going to become rapists.

But, what I am saying is that the progression of robotics and AI, and more importantly how we treat them, is potentially damaging to basic human empathy.

The closer robots get to humans, the more important it becomes that we maintain awareness of this fact. It's hard to argue that a man is going to lose his grip on the separation between reality and fantasy and move from having a rape fetish to becoming a rapist when all he does is jerk it in front of a computer monitor.

However, when he's fully engrossing himself in the physical experience of the act, it's hard to argue that it's not at least starting to desensitize him to the real deal. It's one thing to watch something, but if you find yourself able to grab, restrain, physically overpower and ignore the extremely accurate vocal protestations of your synthetic "victim" and still maintain arousal and enjoy the act... I think that sensory input can damage your empathy, in the long term.

You might find yourself saying "But, that's no different than a couple consensually simulating a rape scenario. If a man is having a rape fantasy with his wife, and they've got safety words and other elements in place that keeps it just a fantasy, how is the robot any different?"

Because the robot can't give consent, it's not a person. Even as a husband is working out a rape fantasy with his wife, he's still a conscious level of detachment from actual rape because he knows, consciously, that his wife is still consenting and that she's still a person who wants it and is capable of actually stopping it if she doesn't.

The reality is, things like rape aren't just about sex, they're about power and actual rapists are usually seeking power over their victims, not just sexual gratification. Rapists don't generally see their victims as people. They don't see what they did as wrong, because "she really wanted it", or because "it doesn't matter, she's just a whore".

It's power by objectifying your victim. When your "victim" is already an object, this makes it a different thing than a consensual participant you know and acknowledge as a person.

So, a person emulating the act in such a way is gaining all the sensory input of the act. They are getting the sensation and feeling of the act, but removing that crucial element of consent from the fantasy. While they aren't equivalent to people performing the real crime, they're basically exposing themselves to an identical mindset and stimulae and enjoying it. I think that this is probably not a good thing for a person's psychological state and empathetic relationships to others.

This doesn't just apply to rape fetishists, either, though. This can also be applied to people interacting with robots and AI that are on that level of being human simulations in other socially and emotionally reprehensible ways.

Some people play a game like the Sims only to torture the little digital folk. They build houses without exits and watch the Sims go mad with isolation. They starve them to death. They watch in amusement as the Sims accidentally set fires, panic, and burn to death. They'll trap them in a pool they can't climb out of, and watch them eventually fatigue themselves into drowning.

This is sorta morbid, but really isn't all that ethically repugnant and is hardly going to turn the person into a sociopath. It might lead to them torturing goldfish or some other kind of similar creature, but that's unlikely.

But, what's important to note here is that people are watching the Sims emulate suffering because the Sims are designed to be able to emulate suffering. Even if a Sim's AI is programmed to acknowledge that "if my Hunger bar empties, I will starve to death and die, and that is bad", it won't automatically start emulating the visible emulations of how we starve... unless we program it to do so.

A Sim that is starving will clutch its stomach, moan in pain, and even refuse to obey commands to do anything. It will emulate suffering, in a way we humans recognize, even though it doesn't have to in order to function. We've made it look like it is suffering. It's not "really" suffering on a level we can equate to a living thing, but golly... it looks like it.

Torturing Sims isn't going to lead to you torturing people... but torturing human-facsimile robots sure as fuck might.

Why?

Because Sims are little clusters of polygons on your computer screen. A robot is a physical being, in front of you. We are sense-oriented creatures, and when something can emulate nearly all the sensory input of something, we can in fact lose touch of it "not being real".

A person watching an actor have a special FX facsimile of an eyeball being ripped out of their head in the movie "Hostel" knows what they are seeing is fake. Might be a little morbid to enjoy such a thing, but it's certainly not the same thing as doing it and isn't likely to lead to you acting it out on folk.

However, the same person ripping the eyeball out of a very human-appearing robot (complete with fake blood!) while it screams in (simulated) agony is probably not doing something healthy to their psychological state. Even though the person knows the robot isn't real, even though they know consciously that the robot isn't a person and is only emulating these respones and isn't "really" feeling them... it's still desensitizing them to the act. They are still going through the identical motions of the act.

Simulation can be dangerous when it's so real it desensitizes you to the real thing. It doesn't mean you will lose sight of reality entirely, and see the simulation as what is real, but it does mean your emotional and empathetic reaction to the real presentation will be blunted.

I don't think that's healthy!

Human-simulation robotics, in my opinion, is dangerous territory in this regard. As it becomes more and more advanced and makes human simulation more convincing, I think it can be ultimately damaging to the societal value of human life.

So, I see videos like the one at the top of this post, and I become very uncomfortable.

How do you feel?

Pony on
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Posts

  • Caulk Bite 6Caulk Bite 6 Registered User regular
    edited January 2010
  • ArchArch HELLO YES THIS IS BUG Registered User regular
    edited January 2010
    yessss postin in this thread
    (much more to come later after I read your stuff, think about it, and then maek poast later with responses and etc)

  • UBSUBS __BANNED USERS
    edited January 2010
    How would you feel about using robots to simulate live targets at the shooting range?

    Because that's exactly the direction one company is heading.

    a life for aiur
  • Raiden333Raiden333 Registered User regular
    edited January 2010
    That's quite possibly the biggest OP I've ever seen. Still read it though, because it's Pony.

    Great stuff and definite food for thought.

    camo_sig2.png
  • PonyPony Registered User regular
    edited January 2010
    UBS wrote: »
    How would you feel about using robots to simulate live targets at the shooting range?

    Because that's exactly the direction one company is heading.

    That bothers the shit out of me and is exactly the sort of thing I find worrying!

  • emnmnmeemnmnme Heard about this on conservative radio:Registered User regular
    edited January 2010
    Pony wrote: »
    Human-simulation robotics, in my opinion, is dangerous territory in this regard. As it becomes more and more advanced and makes human simulation more convincing, I think it can be ultimately damaging to the societal value of human life.

    *queue episode of Futurama with the Lucy Liu-bot*

    People too busy sticking their penises in machines to form real relationships with real people? Preposterous! I can sorta agree that a machine replacing an Industrial Revolution workers could be parallel to a robot replacing a sex worker but I'm not seeing a downside to the latter. Strippers and ho's will have to go back to school and learn to do something more productive.

    EDIT: Was that movie Lars and the Real Girl any good?

    easybossfight_zps4752c132.gif
  • UBSUBS __BANNED USERS
    edited January 2010
    Either that or strippers and ho's step up their game.

    a life for aiur
  • PonyPony Registered User regular
    edited January 2010
    emnmnme wrote: »
    Pony wrote: »
    Human-simulation robotics, in my opinion, is dangerous territory in this regard. As it becomes more and more advanced and makes human simulation more convincing, I think it can be ultimately damaging to the societal value of human life.

    *queue episode of Futurama with the Lucy Liu-bot*

    People too busy sticking their penises in machines to form real relationships with real people? Preposterous! I can sorta agree that a machine replacing an Industrial Revolution workers could be parallel to a robot replacing a sex worker but I'm not seeing a downside to the latter. Strippers and ho's will have to go back to school and learn to do something more productive.

    EDIT: Was that movie Lars and the Real Girl any good?

    My problem isn't with any of that.

    My problem is with people using robots to simulate things which are unacceptable to do to people (murder, torture, rape, etc.) and that resulting in people becoming desensitized to those things actually happening (up to and including possibly crossing over into doing the acts on real people themselves).

  • emnmnmeemnmnme Heard about this on conservative radio:Registered User regular
    edited January 2010
    UBS wrote: »
    Either that or strippers and ho's step up their game.

    Sex robot-on-sex robot porn would be a bizarre fetish. Maybe there's room for the fleshy kind of stripper no matter how advanced the robots become.

    easybossfight_zps4752c132.gif
  • _J__J_ Festive Pedant Registered User regular
    edited January 2010
    Pony wrote: »
    How do you feel?

    I think that couching the entire conversation of ethics of AI with regard to one's personal feelings may lead to subjectivism and an inability to discern a coherent ethical stance.

  • UBSUBS __BANNED USERS
    edited January 2010
    Pony wrote: »
    emnmnme wrote: »
    Pony wrote: »
    Human-simulation robotics, in my opinion, is dangerous territory in this regard. As it becomes more and more advanced and makes human simulation more convincing, I think it can be ultimately damaging to the societal value of human life.

    *queue episode of Futurama with the Lucy Liu-bot*

    People too busy sticking their penises in machines to form real relationships with real people? Preposterous! I can sorta agree that a machine replacing an Industrial Revolution workers could be parallel to a robot replacing a sex worker but I'm not seeing a downside to the latter. Strippers and ho's will have to go back to school and learn to do something more productive.

    EDIT: Was that movie Lars and the Real Girl any good?

    My problem isn't with any of that.

    My problem is with people using robots to simulate things which are unacceptable to do to people (murder, torture, rape, etc.) and that resulting in people becoming desensitized to those things actually happening (up to and including possibly crossing over into doing the acts on real people themselves).


    Killing robots isn't going to make people into killers any more than violent video games do.

    a life for aiur
  • emnmnmeemnmnme Heard about this on conservative radio:Registered User regular
    edited January 2010
    Pony wrote: »
    My problem is with people using robots to simulate things which are unacceptable to do to people (murder, torture, rape, etc.) and that resulting in people becoming desensitized to those things actually happening (up to and including possibly crossing over into doing the acts on real people themselves).

    ....prostitution is unacceptable? Stripping is less acceptable?

    easybossfight_zps4752c132.gif
  • PonyPony Registered User regular
    edited January 2010
    _J_ wrote: »
    Pony wrote: »
    How do you feel?

    I think that couching the entire conversation of ethics of AI with regard to one's personal feelings may lead to subjectivism and an inability to discern a coherent ethical stance.

    J, you belong in a thread about robotics.

  • PonyPony Registered User regular
    edited January 2010
    emnmnme wrote: »
    Pony wrote: »
    My problem is with people using robots to simulate things which are unacceptable to do to people (murder, torture, rape, etc.) and that resulting in people becoming desensitized to those things actually happening (up to and including possibly crossing over into doing the acts on real people themselves).

    ....prostitution is unacceptable? Stripping is less acceptable?

    How does what you said have anything to do with what I said?

  • _J__J_ Festive Pedant Registered User regular
    edited January 2010
    Pony wrote: »
    _J_ wrote: »
    Pony wrote: »
    How do you feel?

    I think that couching the entire conversation of ethics of AI with regard to one's personal feelings may lead to subjectivism and an inability to discern a coherent ethical stance.

    J, you belong in a thread about robotics.

    SRSLY
    Pony wrote: »
    My problem is with people using robots to simulate things which are unacceptable to do to people (murder, torture, rape, etc.) and that resulting in people becoming desensitized to those things actually happening (up to and including possibly crossing over into doing the acts on real people themselves).

    So the problem is not with people raping robots, but rather with how these actions desensitize people?

    Ok, sensible question: What if I can rape a robot but have that action not desensitize me? Is that fine?

  • NerdgasmicNerdgasmic __BANNED USERS regular
    edited January 2010
    UBS wrote: »
    Killing robots isn't going to make people into killers any more than violent video games do.
    Did you not read the post, sir?

    @nealcm @faynor
    nerdgasmic.gif1420 6068 6113 - XBL Atomoclassic
  • wazillawazilla Registered User regular
    edited January 2010
    I don't think you can rape a robot. You can simulate the act of rape using a robot, I suppose... but that's different.

    Psn:wazukki
  • PonyPony Registered User regular
    edited January 2010
    _J_ wrote: »
    Pony wrote: »
    _J_ wrote: »
    Pony wrote: »
    How do you feel?

    I think that couching the entire conversation of ethics of AI with regard to one's personal feelings may lead to subjectivism and an inability to discern a coherent ethical stance.

    J, you belong in a thread about robotics.

    SRSLY
    Pony wrote: »
    My problem is with people using robots to simulate things which are unacceptable to do to people (murder, torture, rape, etc.) and that resulting in people becoming desensitized to those things actually happening (up to and including possibly crossing over into doing the acts on real people themselves).

    So the problem is not with people raping robots, but rather with how these actions desensitize people?

    Ok, sensible question: What if I can rape a robot but have that action not desensitize me? Is that fine?

    Probably!

    A robot that isn't sentient or sapient is just a device, and you are no more "raping" it than you are "raping" a flesh-light.

    If that sensory experience isn't desensitizing you at all, I mean, I still think that sort of thing is creepy and unacceptable in a public space, but in the privacy of your home that's your business and I don't really think it's all that important or negative.

    But, people are simply not that objective, as a lot, and are in fact very much capable of being desensitized in such a way that I consider this sort of thing disturbing because it's so likely to occur.

  • emnmnmeemnmnme Heard about this on conservative radio:Registered User regular
    edited January 2010
    Pony wrote: »
    emnmnme wrote: »
    Pony wrote: »
    My problem is with people using robots to simulate things which are unacceptable to do to people (murder, torture, rape, etc.) and that resulting in people becoming desensitized to those things actually happening (up to and including possibly crossing over into doing the acts on real people themselves).

    ....prostitution is unacceptable? Stripping is less acceptable?

    How does what you said have anything to do with what I said?

    I imagine a future where Wal-Marts have small enclosures the size of fitting rooms where people can enjoy the company of a sex bot. Wal-Mart will still not carry pornographic magazines or the like because those are pictures of real people ... but sex robots? They'll be as common as violent videogames on display. Stab a guy through the chest with a virtual sword, then have sex with a robot for fifty cents, then do your grocery shopping.

    easybossfight_zps4752c132.gif
  • UBSUBS __BANNED USERS
    edited January 2010
    Even the act of raping actual human beings won't desensitize someone who was already sensitive to it in the first place.

    Have you guys ever raped a person?

    a life for aiur
  • PonyPony Registered User regular
    edited January 2010
    wazilla wrote: »
    I don't think you can rape a robot. You can simulate the act of rape using a robot, I suppose... but that's different.

    I agree!

    But, the act of simulating it, as I explained in my post (which I hope you read!) carries with it it's own potential hazards.

  • PonyPony Registered User regular
    edited January 2010
    emnmnme wrote: »
    Pony wrote: »
    emnmnme wrote: »
    Pony wrote: »
    My problem is with people using robots to simulate things which are unacceptable to do to people (murder, torture, rape, etc.) and that resulting in people becoming desensitized to those things actually happening (up to and including possibly crossing over into doing the acts on real people themselves).

    ....prostitution is unacceptable? Stripping is less acceptable?

    How does what you said have anything to do with what I said?

    I imagine a future where Wal-Marts have small enclosures the size of fitting rooms where people can enjoy the company of a sex bot. Wal-Mart will still not carry pornographic magazines or the like because those are pictures of real people ... but sex robots? They'll be as common as violent videogames on display. Stab a guy through the chest with a virtual sword, then have sex with a robot for fifty cents, then do your grocery shopping.

    This vision of the future disturbs me.

  • UBSUBS __BANNED USERS
    edited January 2010
    Nerdgasmic wrote: »
    UBS wrote: »
    Killing robots isn't going to make people into killers any more than violent video games do.
    Did you not read the post, sir?

    Most of it.

    a life for aiur
  • PonyPony Registered User regular
    edited January 2010
    UBS wrote: »
    Nerdgasmic wrote: »
    UBS wrote: »
    Killing robots isn't going to make people into killers any more than violent video games do.
    Did you not read the post, sir?

    Most of it.

    well you should probably read all of it because I specifically address this very point.

  • thisisntwallythisisntwally Registered User regular
    edited January 2010
    emnmnme wrote: »
    EDIT: Was that movie Lars and the Real Girl any good?

    you know, it kinda was?

    #someshit
  • UBSUBS __BANNED USERS
    edited January 2010
    Pony wrote: »
    UBS wrote: »
    Nerdgasmic wrote: »
    UBS wrote: »
    Killing robots isn't going to make people into killers any more than violent video games do.
    Did you not read the post, sir?

    Most of it.

    well you should probably read all of it because I specifically address this very point.

    I wasn't making a point.

    a life for aiur
  • matt has a problemmatt has a problem Six pack on a dick Registered User regular
    edited January 2010
    Pony wrote: »
    wazilla wrote: »
    I don't think you can rape a robot. You can simulate the act of rape using a robot, I suppose... but that's different.

    I agree!

    But, the act of simulating it, as I explained in my post (which I hope you read!) carries with it it's own potential hazards.
    What about people who roleplay rape?

    h1DI1.jpg
    All my fuckin life I lived a normal fuckin life
  • PonyPony Registered User regular
    edited January 2010
    UBS wrote: »
    Pony wrote: »
    UBS wrote: »
    Nerdgasmic wrote: »
    UBS wrote: »
    Killing robots isn't going to make people into killers any more than violent video games do.
    Did you not read the post, sir?

    Most of it.

    well you should probably read all of it because I specifically address this very point.

    I wasn't making a point.

    Are you kidding?

    If you aren't reading posts or "making points", what're you doing here, exactly?

  • PonyPony Registered User regular
    edited January 2010
    Pony wrote: »
    wazilla wrote: »
    I don't think you can rape a robot. You can simulate the act of rape using a robot, I suppose... but that's different.

    I agree!

    But, the act of simulating it, as I explained in my post (which I hope you read!) carries with it it's own potential hazards.
    What about people who roleplay rape?

    holy christ it's like there's no point at all in putting more than a hundred words in a post because nobody will fucking read it

    i address this exact thing in the first post

    go back

    read it

    please

  • UBSUBS __BANNED USERS
    edited January 2010
    Pony wrote: »
    UBS wrote: »
    Pony wrote: »
    UBS wrote: »
    Nerdgasmic wrote: »
    UBS wrote: »
    Killing robots isn't going to make people into killers any more than violent video games do.
    Did you not read the post, sir?

    Most of it.

    well you should probably read all of it because I specifically address this very point.

    I wasn't making a point.

    Are you kidding?

    If you aren't reading posts or "making points", what're you doing here, exactly?

    I was responding to someone else's post.

    a life for aiur
  • Caulk Bite 6Caulk Bite 6 Registered User regular
    edited January 2010
    _J_ wrote: »
    Pony wrote: »
    My problem is with people using robots to simulate things which are unacceptable to do to people (murder, torture, rape, etc.) and that resulting in people becoming desensitized to those things actually happening (up to and including possibly crossing over into doing the acts on real people themselves).

    So the problem is not with people raping robots, but rather with how these actions desensitize people?

    Ok, sensible question: What if I can rape a robot but have that action not desensitize me? Is that fine?

    How would be sure that it did not? Especially that any such desensitization would likely occur over a relatively long term, rather than instantly after the first time with a rape-bot.

  • UBSUBS __BANNED USERS
    edited January 2010
    Pony wrote: »
    Pony wrote: »
    wazilla wrote: »
    I don't think you can rape a robot. You can simulate the act of rape using a robot, I suppose... but that's different.

    I agree!

    But, the act of simulating it, as I explained in my post (which I hope you read!) carries with it it's own potential hazards.
    What about people who roleplay rape?

    holy christ it's like there's no point at all in putting more than a hundred words in a post because nobody will fucking read it

    i address this exact thing in the first post

    go back

    read it

    please

    Dude,

    few people are going to read all that shit.

    It's like you pretty much said everything that needs to be said anyway.

    a life for aiur
  • NerdgasmicNerdgasmic __BANNED USERS regular
    edited January 2010
    Why did you bother posting in here, then?

    @nealcm @faynor
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  • matt has a problemmatt has a problem Six pack on a dick Registered User regular
    edited January 2010
    Pony wrote: »
    Pony wrote: »
    wazilla wrote: »
    I don't think you can rape a robot. You can simulate the act of rape using a robot, I suppose... but that's different.

    I agree!

    But, the act of simulating it, as I explained in my post (which I hope you read!) carries with it it's own potential hazards.
    What about people who roleplay rape?

    holy christ it's like there's no point at all in putting more than a hundred words in a post because nobody will fucking read it

    i address this exact thing in the first post

    go back

    read it

    please
    Except you didn't take either side. You said things like video games don't make people actually go out and kill, but simulated robo-rape carries hazards. I'm trying to figure out which side you fall on, whether you think raping a sexbot is wrong because of the chance someone might move over into the real world and actually rape, or if you're just creeped out by the thought of someone who gets off on simulated rape.

    h1DI1.jpg
    All my fuckin life I lived a normal fuckin life
  • UBSUBS __BANNED USERS
    edited January 2010
    Nerdgasmic wrote: »
    Why did you bother posting in here, then?

    The same reason everyone else did. To discuss. In my own words.

    a life for aiur
  • MalkorMalkor Registered User regular
    edited January 2010
    I guess the flip side of all this is that the people who have certain... needs that would otherwise be visited on other people can have an outlet that only hurts themselves and/or the "robot".

    sooo.... Net gain?

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  • PonyPony Registered User regular
    edited January 2010
    Pony wrote: »
    Pony wrote: »
    wazilla wrote: »
    I don't think you can rape a robot. You can simulate the act of rape using a robot, I suppose... but that's different.

    I agree!

    But, the act of simulating it, as I explained in my post (which I hope you read!) carries with it it's own potential hazards.
    What about people who roleplay rape?

    holy christ it's like there's no point at all in putting more than a hundred words in a post because nobody will fucking read it

    i address this exact thing in the first post

    go back

    read it

    please
    Except you didn't take either side. You said things like video games don't make people actually go out and kill, but simulated robo-rape carries hazards. I'm trying to figure out which side you fall on, whether you think raping a sexbot is wrong because of the chance someone might move over into the real world and actually rape, or if you're just creeped out by the thought of someone who gets off on simulated rape.

    the former

    i think the chances of some (many?) people damaging and desensitizing their ability to empathize with humans via visiting transgressions on human-facsimile machines are high.

    i think this is a very different thing than violent video games, because a violent video game lacks the level of sensory integration and physical interaction that interacting with a human-simulation robot does.

    playing guitar hero does not make you good at guitar. in no way is it an accurate simulation of how playing guitar feels. it doesn't give you the experience of being a rock star, it doesn't give you the same level of sights, sounds, and tactile response that actually playing guitar does

    playing call of duty doesn't teach you how to shoot a M4, it doesn't have the same level of sensory experience actually being in a war does. it doesn't even get close to military simulation with BB or paintball guns.

    watching simulated rape porn isn't the same thing as experiencing what it's like to rape someone

    "raping" an android design to respond accurately as if it is being raped, however, gets really fucking close. the sensory input is near identical, and you lack the conscious divide of "this is a human being who enjoys this and can stop it if they don't" that you get from acting out a fantasy with your girlfriend.

    It's about the level of simulation. Shooting a dude in a video game is not the same as shooting a robot that looks exactly like a dude in real life. Both are "fake" and neither are equivalent to actually shooting a real person, but the latter has a far greater level of desensitizing to the actual act than the former.

    and to be honest

    i don't think that level of simulation is healthy or desirable

  • UBSUBS __BANNED USERS
    edited January 2010
    Would anyone here try raping a robot if it were possible?

    a life for aiur
  • KlorgnumKlorgnum Registered User
    edited January 2010
    Pony wrote: »
    The reality is, things like rape aren't just about sex, they're about power and actual rapists are usually seeking power over their victims, not just sexual gratification. Rapists don't generally see their victims as people. They don't see what they did as wrong, because "she really wanted it", or because "it doesn't matter, she's just a whore".

    It's a little off topic, but I just finished reading Steven Pinker's book The Blank Slate, and he spent a few pages arguing against this. I don't have the book any more and I can't remember most of his argument, but the bit I do remember is along the lines of:

    Most men like sex.
    Some men don't care about how their actions affect other people.
    They feel violence is an acceptable way to get what they want.
    These men want sex and will use violence to get it.

    Why is it that we say rape is about power, rather than the simpler explanation (that they want sex and will hurt people to get it)?
    Why do we consider the motives behind rape to be so much different from an armed robbery (where a person will use violence/threat of violence to obtain money)?

  • PonyPony Registered User regular
    edited January 2010
    Malkor wrote: »
    I guess the flip side of all this is that the people who have certain... needs that would otherwise be visited on other people can have an outlet that only hurts themselves and/or the "robot".

    sooo.... Net gain?

    Maybe. There's certainly an argument to be made for something like, say, pedophilia. It's the consensus opinion in the psychiatric community that a pedophile doesn't choose to be sexually attracted to children, they just are. Some suggest things like "chemical castration" as a way to remedy this, although some might argue that a pedophile allowed to "molest" robotic "children" might be able to keep their condition in check and not visit it upon real children.

    I... I don't think I really agree with that last bit. Porn? Maybe. But robotic simulation? I think that gets too close to normalizing the behavior for the person and makes it harder for them to consciously see it as "wrong".

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