The content of the comedy show is important as well.
For instance, if I have a comedy show about sports and then one day I make an unfunny, blatantly racist comment, then I am merely racist. You don't get to be racist simply under the guise of being a comedian. However, if the point of your show is poking fun as other races or is a parody of racism, that's quite different.
There's no double standard here, TheCanMan.
Imus is considered a 'shock jock' akin to a Howard Stern type of character. This isn't a news or sports broadcaster saying a blatantly racist thing, it's a shock jock trying (and failing) to convey his thoughts in funny manner.
EDIT: I'm not trying to say that racism doesn't exist, or that Imus isn't a racist. What I'm trying to say is that saying 'nappy headed hos' doesn't automatically make someone racist.
It's still a racially-oriented comment. He's not being kicked out for "being a racist," he's being kicked out for making a racist comment. I can make racist comments without believing them.
The content of the comedy show is important as well.
For instance, if I have a comedy show about sports and then one day I make an unfunny, blatantly racist comment, then I am merely racist. You don't get to be racist simply under the guise of being a comedian. However, if the point of your show is poking fun as other races or is a parody of racism, that's quite different.
There's no double standard here, TheCanMan.
The only thing that proves is that you are completely ignorant of Imus' show. The point of his show was to make fun of EVERYONE.
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Anyone remember the name of that DJ/talk radio guy who got tossed off the air a number of years ago after making a joke about the black person who got dragged behind a truck by some guys in Texas?
Man that wasn't racist. I'm sure that the dude got dragged behind a pickup in Texas on the merits of his personal character.
The content of the comedy show is important as well.
For instance, if I have a comedy show about sports and then one day I make an unfunny, blatantly racist comment, then I am merely racist. You don't get to be racist simply under the guise of being a comedian. However, if the point of your show is poking fun as other races or is a parody of racism, that's quite different.
There's no double standard here, TheCanMan.
The only thing that proves is that you are completely ignorant of Imus' show. The point of his show was to make fun of EVERYONE.
Okay, Imus.
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FencingsaxIt is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understandingGNU Terry PratchettRegistered Userregular
Anyone remember the name of that DJ/talk radio guy who got tossed off the air a number of years ago after making a joke about the black person who got dragged behind a truck by some guys in Texas?
Man that wasn't racist. I'm sure that the dude got dragged behind a pickup in Texas on the merits of his personal character.
Just like that gay kid who was beat up and left for dead in Nebraska. (yes, yes, I know I'm not being terribly specific, but still. Pick one)
He chose his words poorly, for sure, but what if he just said the looked 'disheveled'? No one would care. Because he chose to use a colloqualism that is not associated with his own race, all of a sudden what he said is massively racist and insulting to all black people. Do you see what I'm getting at here?
Yes, that's what I'm getting at. It is considered improper for a non-black to speak of black people using terms of familiarity instead of the utmost formality and respect. That's why the words themselves are a big part of the issue. If a black person asks me, "which one of those guys over there do I need to ask to get a newspaper," and I realize that the easiest way to point out the person they need to talk to is by race, I am usually stuttered. I'm like, "well, the, um, African American gentleman" which is fine because that's a polite way to say it. But I'm even afraid to use a rather neutral, "the black guy," because it is a rather familiar and informal way to refer to him. But it's okay in most other circumstances for me or any other race of person to point someone out as "the white guy" or, if being nonchalant or funny or irreverent, even "the whitey" or "the cracker."
That is the issue here. "Nappy-headed hos" was an instance of a high-profile person referring to black people and things which are considered uniquely black, in terms that denote some amount of familiarity and informality, which is a big no-no.
It could be likened to a child who doesn't refer to an elder as "Mr." or "Sir." That is the crime here. It sure as hell isn't "agism" when a young child refers to his elder as "that dude" or even "that wrinkly guy." It's a lack of showing respect.
It isn't just a "double standard." It's establishing a privileged class.
Anyone remember the name of that DJ/talk radio guy who got tossed off the air a number of years ago after making a joke about the black person who got dragged behind a truck by some guys in Texas?
Man that wasn't racist. I'm sure that the dude got dragged behind a pickup in Texas on the merits of his personal character.
Just like that gay kid who was beat up and left for dead in Nebraska. (yes, yes, I know I'm not being terribly specific, but still. Pick one)
I found it! "The Greaseman" was the guy's name. And he said, after playing a Lauren Hill song "and they wonder why we drag them behind trucks".
Needless to say, he also lost his job, but being lesser known, I don't believe there was a shitstorm like this Imus thing has been.
The content of the comedy show is important as well.
For instance, if I have a comedy show about sports and then one day I make an unfunny, blatantly racist comment, then I am merely racist. You don't get to be racist simply under the guise of being a comedian. However, if the point of your show is poking fun as other races or is a parody of racism, that's quite different.
There's no double standard here, TheCanMan.
Imus is considered a 'shock jock' akin to a Howard Stern type of character. This isn't a news or sports broadcaster saying a blatantly racist thing, it's a shock jock trying (and failing) to convey his thoughts in funny manner.
EDIT: I'm not trying to say that racism doesn't exist, or that Imus isn't a racist. What I'm trying to say is that saying 'nappy headed hos' doesn't automatically make someone racist.
It's still a racially-oriented comment. He's not being kicked out for "being a racist," he's being kicked out for making a racist comment. I can make racist comments without believing them.
YOU.ARE.MISSING.THE.POINT.
What I'm trying to say is that the phrase CANNOT be inherently racist if it is used by the race it's supposed to insult. The INTENT may have been racist, but the phrase itself should not be considered that way. Do you think if people avoided any racial sterotypes, and never used a phrase that contained a racial word, that racism would just go away? If anything, I'm pretty sure the underlying problem would just get worse. Ignoring a problem doesn't make it go away, and giving power to words only gives power to those who use those words with malicious intent. A word itself cannot be racist, only the person who says the word.
Imus did not say "Rutgers is a bunch of nappy headed hos, and that's why black people are inferior to white people". I'm pretty sure he was just commenting (however mean it was) on the team's appearance. He just chose a phrase that is usually relegated to use by the black community. I think assuming that anytime a white person says such a phrase they say it with a racist undertone is pretty ignorant.
Nickel, have you read this thread? Pretty much everything you're talking about has been covered extensively already. You can try to make the point of semantics and intent, but barring the appearance of some Jean Grey psychic powers, we're gonna have to evaluate his comments like we would anyone else's, and that's by matching them up with prior behavior. Pleading ignorance on that part doesn't cut it either, since Elkamil supplied plenty of evidence and a quick google search will get you much of the same. There's absolutely no reason for you to be making that statement in here.
And no one is saying that those women can't be criticized. They absolutely can and Imus is within his rights to say what he wants. The problem is that we, as a society, do not welcome or accept assholery of this nature, especially from prominent figures in our society. Having been targetted for this kind of behavior before, having been a prominent figure in radio for some time, and (I'm assuming) not being a complete retard, Imus should've known better.
I've read the thread, and I haven't seen my exact argument made. What I'm arguing is that society shouldn't attached stigma's on words, especially stigmas that only apply when a particular race says those words. The fact that I was ignorant of what Imus did in the past is irrelevant. The phrase "nappy headed ho" could be said by a black commentator on E! Television doing a report on the fashion on the red carpet, and no one would bat an eye, or like in my example above, Tyra Banks. From what I've heard (and I've mostly tried to keep my opinion out of this) of the quote in context, he said the phrase simply as a comment on the team's appearance, and not as an attack on black people as a whole. He chose unfortunate words, it would seem, but I don't think this particular comment was meant to be degrading to ALL black people. Sure, I'll grant that he was insulting the team, and it was mean of him to do so, but I don't think he meant it in a "let's burn all these nappy headed hoes" kind of way.
In this case, taken all by itself, it would appear people are up in arms over the words he used to express himself, rather than what he was trying to express.
EDIT (Again): Also, please stop saying IMUS is a sports broadcaster. I know enough about him to know he's just a general talk show host, which means he can talk about any topic he wants regardless of it's relevance to sports. People can talk about Picasso without exclusively talking about his paintings.
Your ignorance of Imus' past isn't irrelevant. You're basically saying that you can judge the comments without historical perspective on the person that said them. What the shit?
The Tyra comment (source?) is, again, irrelevant. We're not talking about her comments, we're talking about his.
The content of the comedy show is important as well.
For instance, if I have a comedy show about sports and then one day I make an unfunny, blatantly racist comment, then I am merely racist. You don't get to be racist simply under the guise of being a comedian. However, if the point of your show is poking fun as other races or is a parody of racism, that's quite different.
There's no double standard here, TheCanMan.
Imus is considered a 'shock jock' akin to a Howard Stern type of character. This isn't a news or sports broadcaster saying a blatantly racist thing, it's a shock jock trying (and failing) to convey his thoughts in funny manner.
EDIT: I'm not trying to say that racism doesn't exist, or that Imus isn't a racist. What I'm trying to say is that saying 'nappy headed hos' doesn't automatically make someone racist.
It's still a racially-oriented comment. He's not being kicked out for "being a racist," he's being kicked out for making a racist comment. I can make racist comments without believing them.
YOU.ARE.MISSING.THE.POINT.
What I'm trying to say is that the phrase CANNOT be inherently racist if it is used by the race it's supposed to insult. The INTENT may have been racist, but the phrase itself should not be considered that way. Do you think if people avoided any racial sterotypes, and never used a phrase that contained a racial word, that racism would just go away? If anything, I'm pretty sure the underlying problem would just get worse. Ignoring a problem doesn't make it go away, and giving power to words only gives power to those who use those words with malicious intent.
Imus did not say "Rutgers is a bunch of nappy headed hos, and that's why black people are inferior to white people". I'm pretty sure he was just commenting (however mean it was) on the team's appearance. He just chose a phrase that is usually relegated to use by the black community. I think assuming that anytime a white person says such a phrase they say it with a racist undertone is pretty ignorant.
And I think that's a very limited and lazy point of view. I don't care if black people call each other "n****r" playfully or not. It's still racist when a white person uses the term. Emotions and society aren't algebraic. There's a very complex formula at work and blanket rules don't work. They fail. They have no function. Sorry, but the insistence that a certain race using a certain phrase or word among each other suddenly makes it okay for anyone to use the phrase is just silly and shows a lack of understand in how racism works.
I disagree. First, I don't see Leno or Jon Stewart being retarded enough to do such a thing. Second, if they did, you can bet your ass that they'd catch shit for it. Especially since the comment was directed to a specific group of women and degraded them. Say what you want about Chappelle, but he's not singling out specific white people or black people, nor does his past commentary make it appear that he is making jokes in a mean-spirited or hateful fashion. Howard Stern catches shit for occasional racial stupidity, but he's not getting this sort of reaction for the same reason. People know for a fact that he's a shock jock and he's going out of his way to be shocking. I've never gotten that feeling at all from Imus (admittedly, I've only heard the show a few times).
How can you argue that Imus was being racist while stating the above? Sure he said something mean-spirited about the team's appearance. You said yourself it was directed at a specific group of people, which means it wouldn't be degrading to the race. He chose his words poorly, for sure, but what if he just said the looked 'disheveled'? No one would care. Because he chose to use a colloqualism that is not associated with his own race, all of a sudden what he said is massively racist and insulting to all black people. Do you see what I'm getting at here?
How can you argue that he wasn't being racist. Here's a hint: you don't have to make racist statements about the whole race to be racist.
Poorly chosen words. That's an interesting way to put the spin on this. Man, it's not like this guy has ever "poorly chosen" words like this in the past. Stop acting like this is an isolated incident. More so, stop acting like this was only insulting to black people. It's also insulting to people who aren't douchebags.
Nickel, have you read this thread? Pretty much everything you're talking about has been covered extensively already. You can try to make the point of semantics and intent, but barring the appearance of some Jean Grey psychic powers, we're gonna have to evaluate his comments like we would anyone else's, and that's by matching them up with prior behavior. Pleading ignorance on that part doesn't cut it either, since Elkamil supplied plenty of evidence and a quick google search will get you much of the same. There's absolutely no reason for you to be making that statement in here.
And no one is saying that those women can't be criticized. They absolutely can and Imus is within his rights to say what he wants. The problem is that we, as a society, do not welcome or accept assholery of this nature, especially from prominent figures in our society. Having been targetted for this kind of behavior before, having been a prominent figure in radio for some time, and (I'm assuming) not being a complete retard, Imus should've known better.
I've read the thread, and I haven't seen my exact argument made. What I'm arguing is that society shouldn't attached stigma's on words, especially stigmas that only apply when a particular race says those words. The fact that I was ignorant of what Imus did in the past is irrelevant. The phrase "nappy headed ho" could be said by a black commentator on E! Television doing a report on the fashion on the red carpet, and no one would bat an eye, or like in my example above, Tyra Banks. From what I've heard (and I've mostly tried to keep my opinion out of this) of the quote in context, he said the phrase simply as a comment on the team's appearance, and not as an attack on black people as a whole. He chose unfortunate words, it would seem, but I don't think this particular comment was meant to be degrading to ALL black people. Sure, I'll grant that he was insulting the team, and it was mean of him to do so, but I don't think he meant it in a "let's burn all these nappy headed hoes" kind of way.
In this case, taken all by itself, it would appear people are up in arms over the words he used to express himself, rather than what he was trying to express.
EDIT (Again): Also, please stop saying IMUS is a sports broadcaster. I know enough about him to know he's just a general talk show host, which means he can talk about any topic he wants regardless of it's relevance to sports. People can talk about Picasso without exclusively talking about his paintings.
Your ignorance of Imus' past isn't irrelevant. You're basically saying that you can judge the comments without historical perspective on the person that said them. What the shit?
The Tyra comment (source?) is, again, irrelevant. We're not talking about her comments, we're talking about his.
I love how you keep talking about other people's ignorance of Imus' history when you yourself are completely ignorant of the type of show he does.
I love how you keep talking about other people's ignorance of Imus' history when you yourself are completely ignorant of the type of show he does.
Most of us seem to be at a disadvantage. The show is canceled, and it's not the kind of thing people are eager to toss up on bittorrent trackers, or host entirely on their own.
A transcript of a show or two would help, but video gives more insight in to the tone and context of things he says.
I'm not arguing about Imus' actions, persay, so my knowlege of his history is completely irrelevant. What I'm saying is this: When you say that whenever a black person uses the phrase 'nappy headed hos' they can ONLY be joking, and whenever a white person says the same phrase they can ONLY be derogatory. Who's the racist, again?
You are trying to tell me that a white person could NEVER say "What's up, my n*****?" with the same exact intent as when a black person says it? You're automatically assuming that the white person is saying "What's up, my slave" when in reality he's just trying to say "What's up my friend" in the same way that black people do.
Anyone remember the name of that DJ/talk radio guy who got tossed off the air a number of years ago after making a joke about the black person who got dragged behind a truck by some guys in Texas?
Man that wasn't racist. I'm sure that the dude got dragged behind a pickup in Texas on the merits of his personal character.
Just like that gay kid who was beat up and left for dead in Nebraska. (yes, yes, I know I'm not being terribly specific, but still. Pick one)
I found it! "The Greaseman" was the guy's name. And he said, after playing a Lauren Hill song "and they wonder why we drag them behind trucks".
Needless to say, he also lost his job, but being lesser known, I don't believe there was a shitstorm like this Imus thing has been.
I've never heard of him, but I've never heard of Lauren Hill, either.
The content of the comedy show is important as well.
For instance, if I have a comedy show about sports and then one day I make an unfunny, blatantly racist comment, then I am merely racist. You don't get to be racist simply under the guise of being a comedian. However, if the point of your show is poking fun as other races or is a parody of racism, that's quite different.
There's no double standard here, TheCanMan.
Imus is considered a 'shock jock' akin to a Howard Stern type of character. This isn't a news or sports broadcaster saying a blatantly racist thing, it's a shock jock trying (and failing) to convey his thoughts in funny manner.
EDIT: I'm not trying to say that racism doesn't exist, or that Imus isn't a racist. What I'm trying to say is that saying 'nappy headed hos' doesn't automatically make someone racist.
It's still a racially-oriented comment. He's not being kicked out for "being a racist," he's being kicked out for making a racist comment. I can make racist comments without believing them.
YOU.ARE.MISSING.THE.POINT.
What I'm trying to say is that the phrase CANNOT be inherently racist if it is used by the race it's supposed to insult. The INTENT may have been racist, but the phrase itself should not be considered that way. Do you think if people avoided any racial sterotypes, and never used a phrase that contained a racial word, that racism would just go away? If anything, I'm pretty sure the underlying problem would just get worse. Ignoring a problem doesn't make it go away, and giving power to words only gives power to those who use those words with malicious intent. A word itself cannot be racist, only the person who says the word.
No word or phrase is inherently anything. Words gain meaning by the situation, tone of, and vessel of delivery (among other things). It's called context, you should look it up. In this context, Imus' words are racist. For that matter, being called nappy-headed has never been a positive thing amongst black people. Pleading ignorance is also bullshit, since using that phrase implies that you know what it means. What white person is so retarded that they honestly think they can get away with saying the same thing without repercussions? Oh right, that Imus fellow.
Imus did not say "Rutgers is a bunch of nappy headed hos, and that's why black people are inferior to white people". I'm pretty sure he was just commenting (however mean it was) on the team's appearance. He just chose a phrase that is usually relegated to use by the black community. I think assuming that anytime a white person says such a phrase they say it with a racist undertone is pretty ignorant.
Denigrating people based on racial characteristics is racist. I can't see why you're failing to get this.
I'm not arguing about Imus' actions, persay, so my knowlege of his history is completely irrelevant. What I'm saying is this: When you say that whenever a black person uses the phrase 'nappy headed hos' they can ONLY be joking, and whenever a white person says the same phrase they can ONLY be derogatory. Who's the racist, again?
You are trying to tell me that a white person could NEVER say "What's up, my n*****?" with the same exact intent as when a black person says it? You're automatically assuming that the white person is saying "What's up, my slave" when in reality he's just trying to say "What's up my friend" in the same way that black people do.
They could say it, but they should also be familiar with the social climate, so they should expect consequences.
Unfair or not, black people tend to get more freedom with words historically used to subjugate them.
I love how you keep talking about other people's ignorance of Imus' history when you yourself are completely ignorant of the type of show he does.
Most of us seem to be at a disadvantage. The show is canceled, and it's not the kind of thing people are eager to toss up on bittorrent trackers, or host entirely on their own.
A transcript of a show or two would help, but video gives more insight in to the tone and context of things he says.
Here's something from an article by some guy named Michael H. Thomas that he wrote as a semi-retraction of another article he had written before he actually listened to the show.
"Two of Imus's regulars, although never identified as such, are Rob Bartlett and Larry Kenney. Why they are never identified is that they always appear on Imus's program as someone else. Rob Bartlett is not only a comedian, but an accomplished Broadway actor. On the Imus show he appears as a burnt out "Brian Wilson" of the Beach Boys and a bald "Dr. Phil." His "Dr. Phil" impressions are remarkable and makes one believe that anyone taking the time to read a few self-help books could become a nationally known pop psychologist. One of Barlett's latest and most hilarious characters is "Lady Camilla Parker-Bowles." If you can get through the hilarity of Camilla Parker-Bowles having a full mustache, you will appreciate Bartlett's caricature of Great Britain's not so royal highness.
Larry Kenney is truly a man of a thousand voices. He can imitate almost anyone. If you don't recognize his name, you definitely have heard his voice. Ask your kids if they've ever heard of Coco Puff's Count Chocula or Sonny the Bird, yep, that's Larry Kenney! On the Imus show, Larry Kenney will show up as a drink-toting Senator Edward Kennedy, and various other characters. My favorite is a person who is supposed to control all the produce that flows into New York City each day. This character is known as "Al Tomatoes" "Tomatoes" looks like a blended cast member out of "The Godfather." Kenney is also the voice for Ross Perot, General George Patton, and Andy Rooney.
A regular feature of the program lately is executive producer Bernard McGuirk stuffing an empty FEDEX envelope on his head and portraying a hate spewing Cardinal Edward Egan. As "Cardinal Egan" with an Irish lilt chants a litany wishing dire consequences on gays, lesbians, certain Broadway plays, and politicians, the Imus cast - as respondents, follow along chanting, "Lord hear our Prayer." This segment has gotten Roman Catholic and former choirboy Bernard McGuirk listed by the Catholic League as being anti-Catholic. Of course, I'm probably listed there too; it's not hard to get on the list…See Five Catholics on the Supreme Court."
I'm always confused by white people complaining they can't call black people n*****. Why would you want to? It all just smacks to me of racists pining for a time when they could.
He chose his words poorly, for sure, but what if he just said the looked 'disheveled'? No one would care. Because he chose to use a colloqualism that is not associated with his own race, all of a sudden what he said is massively racist and insulting to all black people. Do you see what I'm getting at here?
Yes, that's what I'm getting at. It is considered improper for a non-black to speak of black people using terms of familiarity instead of the utmost formality and respect.
No it isn't. Unless by 'terms of familiarity' you mean a racial term, in which case you have to understand that black people are slightly sensitive about white people using terms that have been used to denigrate black people for centuries.
If a black person asks me, "which one of those guys over there do I need to ask to get a newspaper," and I realize that the easiest way to point out the person they need to talk to is by race, I am usually stuttered. I'm like, "well, the, um, African American gentleman" which is fine because that's a polite way to say it. But I'm even afraid to use a rather neutral, "the black guy," because it is a rather familiar and informal way to refer to him. But it's okay in most other circumstances for me or any other race of person to point someone out as "the white guy" or, if being nonchalant or funny or irreverent, even "the whitey" or "the cracker."
What are you talking about? No-one is going to go OMG if you say "that black guy over there is the one you want" and if they do, they're a dick. There's no double standard there.
I'm not arguing about Imus' actions, persay, so my knowlege of his history is completely irrelevant. What I'm saying is this: When you say that whenever a black person uses the phrase 'nappy headed hos' they can ONLY be joking, and whenever a white person says the same phrase they can ONLY be derogatory. Who's the racist, again?
You are trying to tell me that a white person could NEVER say "What's up, my n*****?" with the same exact intent as when a black person says it? You're automatically assuming that the white person is saying "What's up, my slave" when in reality he's just trying to say "What's up my friend" in the same way that black people do.
They could say it, but they should also be familiar with the social climate, so they should expect consequences.
Unfair or not, black people tend to get more freedom with words historically used to subjugate them.
Actually, you didn't need that last modifier. Black people tend to get more freedom with words. When was the last time a black person said something racially insensative towards white people and it started a shit storm from "activists" and media.
I'm not arguing about Imus' actions, persay, so my knowlege of his history is completely irrelevant. What I'm saying is this: When you say that whenever a black person uses the phrase 'nappy headed hos' they can ONLY be joking, and whenever a white person says the same phrase they can ONLY be derogatory. Who's the racist, again?
You are trying to tell me that a white person could NEVER say "What's up, my n*****?" with the same exact intent as when a black person says it? You're automatically assuming that the white person is saying "What's up, my slave" when in reality he's just trying to say "What's up my friend" in the same way that black people do.
They could say it, but they should also be familiar with the social climate, so they should expect consequences.
Unfair or not, black people tend to get more freedom with words historically used to subjugate them.
YES. For god's sake people, understand that a word like that has history. Ten years of rappers using it and the black community claiming it back doesn't mean that you can start calling black people n***** again. Complaining that "but I can't say n******!!!!" is so fucking stupid it hurts.
The content of the comedy show is important as well.
For instance, if I have a comedy show about sports and then one day I make an unfunny, blatantly racist comment, then I am merely racist. You don't get to be racist simply under the guise of being a comedian. However, if the point of your show is poking fun as other races or is a parody of racism, that's quite different.
There's no double standard here, TheCanMan.
Imus is considered a 'shock jock' akin to a Howard Stern type of character. This isn't a news or sports broadcaster saying a blatantly racist thing, it's a shock jock trying (and failing) to convey his thoughts in funny manner.
EDIT: I'm not trying to say that racism doesn't exist, or that Imus isn't a racist. What I'm trying to say is that saying 'nappy headed hos' doesn't automatically make someone racist.
It's still a racially-oriented comment. He's not being kicked out for "being a racist," he's being kicked out for making a racist comment. I can make racist comments without believing them.
YOU.ARE.MISSING.THE.POINT.
What I'm trying to say is that the phrase CANNOT be inherently racist if it is used by the race it's supposed to insult. The INTENT may have been racist, but the phrase itself should not be considered that way. Do you think if people avoided any racial sterotypes, and never used a phrase that contained a racial word, that racism would just go away? If anything, I'm pretty sure the underlying problem would just get worse. Ignoring a problem doesn't make it go away, and giving power to words only gives power to those who use those words with malicious intent. A word itself cannot be racist, only the person who says the word.
No word or phrase is inherently anything. Words gain meaning by the situation, tone of, and vessel of delivery (among other things). It's called context, you should look it up. In this context, Imus' words are racist. For that matter, being called nappy-headed has never been a positive thing amongst black people. Pleading ignorance is also bullshit, since using that phrase implies that you know what it means. What white person is so retarded that they honestly think they can get away with saying the same thing without repercussions? Oh right, that Imus fellow.
Imus did not say "Rutgers is a bunch of nappy headed hos, and that's why black people are inferior to white people". I'm pretty sure he was just commenting (however mean it was) on the team's appearance. He just chose a phrase that is usually relegated to use by the black community. I think assuming that anytime a white person says such a phrase they say it with a racist undertone is pretty ignorant.
Denigrating people based on racial characteristics is racist. I can't see why you're failing to get this.
I can see why you don't see the double standard here. People can poke fun at other people based on racial characteristics all the time. To bring back the much hated Dave Chappell comparison, all his jokes were based on racial characteristics. He would make fun of white people for doing white people stuff, black people for doing black people stuff, etc. Say Imus (bad taste aside) was just trying to poke fun at the team, (I'm not saying this is the case). It's wrong to assume that just because he ISN'T Dave Chappell that any time he would try to joke about racial stereotypes, he's trying to denigrate someone.
I don't like being called a cracker, because I've never owned any slaves. I don't like being associated with or reminded of what my ancestors did. That doesn't mean I start a fucking war whenever I hear a black person call a white person a cracker.
to that guy above me: If the 'history' of the n-word really mattered so much, then black people wouldn't use it either. It seems the history only matters when a white person says it.
Actually, you didn't need that last modifier. Black people tend to get more freedom with words. When was the last time a black person said something racially insensative towards anyone and it started a shit storm from "activists" and media.
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FencingsaxIt is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understandingGNU Terry PratchettRegistered Userregular
Actually, you didn't need that last modifier. Black people tend to get more freedom with words. When was the last time a black person said something racially insensative towards anyone and it started a shit storm from "activists" and media.
The content of the comedy show is important as well.
For instance, if I have a comedy show about sports and then one day I make an unfunny, blatantly racist comment, then I am merely racist. You don't get to be racist simply under the guise of being a comedian. However, if the point of your show is poking fun as other races or is a parody of racism, that's quite different.
There's no double standard here, TheCanMan.
Imus is considered a 'shock jock' akin to a Howard Stern type of character. This isn't a news or sports broadcaster saying a blatantly racist thing, it's a shock jock trying (and failing) to convey his thoughts in funny manner.
EDIT: I'm not trying to say that racism doesn't exist, or that Imus isn't a racist. What I'm trying to say is that saying 'nappy headed hos' doesn't automatically make someone racist.
It's still a racially-oriented comment. He's not being kicked out for "being a racist," he's being kicked out for making a racist comment. I can make racist comments without believing them.
YOU.ARE.MISSING.THE.POINT.
What I'm trying to say is that the phrase CANNOT be inherently racist if it is used by the race it's supposed to insult. The INTENT may have been racist, but the phrase itself should not be considered that way. Do you think if people avoided any racial sterotypes, and never used a phrase that contained a racial word, that racism would just go away? If anything, I'm pretty sure the underlying problem would just get worse. Ignoring a problem doesn't make it go away, and giving power to words only gives power to those who use those words with malicious intent. A word itself cannot be racist, only the person who says the word.
No word or phrase is inherently anything. Words gain meaning by the situation, tone of, and vessel of delivery (among other things). It's called context, you should look it up. In this context, Imus' words are racist. For that matter, being called nappy-headed has never been a positive thing amongst black people. Pleading ignorance is also bullshit, since using that phrase implies that you know what it means. What white person is so retarded that they honestly think they can get away with saying the same thing without repercussions? Oh right, that Imus fellow.
Imus did not say "Rutgers is a bunch of nappy headed hos, and that's why black people are inferior to white people". I'm pretty sure he was just commenting (however mean it was) on the team's appearance. He just chose a phrase that is usually relegated to use by the black community. I think assuming that anytime a white person says such a phrase they say it with a racist undertone is pretty ignorant.
Denigrating people based on racial characteristics is racist. I can't see why you're failing to get this.
I can see why you don't see the double standard here. People can poke fun at other people based on racial characteristics all the time. To bring back the much hated Dave Chappell comparison, all his jokes were based on racial characteristics. He would make fun of white people for doing white people stuff, black people for doing black people stuff, etc. Say Imus (bad taste aside) was just trying to poke fun at the team, (I'm not saying this is the case). It's wrong to assume that just because he ISN'T Dave Chappell that any time he would try to joke about racial stereotypes, he's trying to denigrate someone.
Please, for the love of God, take my word for it. Basically Imus' entire show was devoted to making fun of people. Often highly public people, right to their face, while they were talking to each other.
Actually, you didn't need that last modifier. Black people tend to get more freedom with words. When was the last time a black person said something racially insensative towards anyone and it started a shit storm from "activists" and media.
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Oh well. I guess that's what we get for enslaving blacks for hundreds of years. As a white person, I frankly don't care if black people say something racist against whites...not too much, and especially not if it's a racist joke. I'm not saying that they aren't jackasses, but I just don't really care. I'm impervious because there isn't a history of black domination over whites. I think if there was I would be a lot more touchy. Maybe there's a double standard there. Oh well. I don't think there's anything wrong with the double standard. People say "omg double standard kill kill kill." I can only say "in due time," and we have not reached due time yet. It'll work itself out. You're not going to argue the black community out of being touchy.
Actually, you didn't need that last modifier. Black people tend to get more freedom with words. When was the last time a black person said something racially insensative towards anyone and it started a shit storm from "activists" and media.
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Chocolate city?
Sounds delicious!
Also, Alan Keyes took a great deal of flack for his comments on homosexuals while, I believe, a black professor was fired for blaming everything bad on white people.
Actually, you didn't need that last modifier. Black people tend to get more freedom with words. When was the last time a black person said something racially insensative towards anyone and it started a shit storm from "activists" and media.
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Jesse Jackson catches a lot of shit when he goes off about "hymietown" and the like. And there's no real shortage of bitter white guys who whine about "reverse racism" and the like.
Oh well. I guess that's what we get for enslaving blacks for hundreds of years. As a white person, I frankly don't care if black people say something racist against whites...not too much, and especially not if it's a racist joke. I'm not saying that they aren't jackasses, but I just don't really care. I'm impervious because there isn't a history of black domination over whites. I think if there was I would be a lot more touchy. Maybe there's a double standard there. Oh well. I don't think there's anything wrong with the double standard. People say "omg double standard kill kill kill." I can only say "in due time," and we have not reached due time yet. It'll work itself out. You're not going to argue the black community out of being touchy.
It isn't just a "double standard." It's establishing a privileged class.
Guys Yar just said that this type of commentary establishes black people as a privileged class. Am I the only one fucking reading this?
Man if only I had the right to use "n*****" and "nappy-headed ho's" without people thinking I'm a racist cockbite. I'm tired of living in the shadow of oppression! I'm taking it to the streets to stick it to the (black) man!
that's pretty much the defintion of a double standard though Drez
Double standards exist nexuscrawler, like -- say for example -- the huge number of double standards that privilege white people solely on the basis of their skin color.
Actually, you didn't need that last modifier. Black people tend to get more freedom with words. When was the last time a black person said something racially insensative towards anyone and it started a shit storm from "activists" and media.
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Jesse Jackson catches a lot of shit when he goes off about "hymietown" and the like. And there's no real shortage of bitter white guys who whine about "reverse racism" and the like.
Yeah, Jesse Jackson getting a little bad press for a few days is totally the same thing as the railroading Imus just got in large part to Al Sharpton and...oh yeah...Jesse Jackson. I guess that hymietown comment really hurt his standings in the community.
Jesse Jackson catches a lot of shit when he goes off about "hymietown" and the like.
Relatively speaking, no he does not.
He's forced to issue apologies and all of that. The fact that he can't really be fired by anyone gives him a little more latitude than an employee of a radio station.
And there's no real shortage of bitter white guys who whine about "reverse racism" and the like.
So, it's all okay then...?
I wasn't intending to demonstrate that it was "okay". I was intending to demonstrate that a large number of people take note and take offense at black media personalities making fun of whites.
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It's still a racially-oriented comment. He's not being kicked out for "being a racist," he's being kicked out for making a racist comment. I can make racist comments without believing them.
The only thing that proves is that you are completely ignorant of Imus' show. The point of his show was to make fun of EVERYONE.
Okay, Imus.
Just like that gay kid who was beat up and left for dead in Nebraska. (yes, yes, I know I'm not being terribly specific, but still. Pick one)
That is the issue here. "Nappy-headed hos" was an instance of a high-profile person referring to black people and things which are considered uniquely black, in terms that denote some amount of familiarity and informality, which is a big no-no.
It could be likened to a child who doesn't refer to an elder as "Mr." or "Sir." That is the crime here. It sure as hell isn't "agism" when a young child refers to his elder as "that dude" or even "that wrinkly guy." It's a lack of showing respect.
It isn't just a "double standard." It's establishing a privileged class.
I found it! "The Greaseman" was the guy's name. And he said, after playing a Lauren Hill song "and they wonder why we drag them behind trucks".
Needless to say, he also lost his job, but being lesser known, I don't believe there was a shitstorm like this Imus thing has been.
YOU.ARE.MISSING.THE.POINT.
What I'm trying to say is that the phrase CANNOT be inherently racist if it is used by the race it's supposed to insult. The INTENT may have been racist, but the phrase itself should not be considered that way. Do you think if people avoided any racial sterotypes, and never used a phrase that contained a racial word, that racism would just go away? If anything, I'm pretty sure the underlying problem would just get worse. Ignoring a problem doesn't make it go away, and giving power to words only gives power to those who use those words with malicious intent. A word itself cannot be racist, only the person who says the word.
Imus did not say "Rutgers is a bunch of nappy headed hos, and that's why black people are inferior to white people". I'm pretty sure he was just commenting (however mean it was) on the team's appearance. He just chose a phrase that is usually relegated to use by the black community. I think assuming that anytime a white person says such a phrase they say it with a racist undertone is pretty ignorant.
Your ignorance of Imus' past isn't irrelevant. You're basically saying that you can judge the comments without historical perspective on the person that said them. What the shit?
The Tyra comment (source?) is, again, irrelevant. We're not talking about her comments, we're talking about his.
And I think that's a very limited and lazy point of view. I don't care if black people call each other "n****r" playfully or not. It's still racist when a white person uses the term. Emotions and society aren't algebraic. There's a very complex formula at work and blanket rules don't work. They fail. They have no function. Sorry, but the insistence that a certain race using a certain phrase or word among each other suddenly makes it okay for anyone to use the phrase is just silly and shows a lack of understand in how racism works.
How can you argue that he wasn't being racist. Here's a hint: you don't have to make racist statements about the whole race to be racist.
Poorly chosen words. That's an interesting way to put the spin on this. Man, it's not like this guy has ever "poorly chosen" words like this in the past. Stop acting like this is an isolated incident. More so, stop acting like this was only insulting to black people. It's also insulting to people who aren't douchebags.
I love how you keep talking about other people's ignorance of Imus' history when you yourself are completely ignorant of the type of show he does.
Most of us seem to be at a disadvantage. The show is canceled, and it's not the kind of thing people are eager to toss up on bittorrent trackers, or host entirely on their own.
A transcript of a show or two would help, but video gives more insight in to the tone and context of things he says.
You are trying to tell me that a white person could NEVER say "What's up, my n*****?" with the same exact intent as when a black person says it? You're automatically assuming that the white person is saying "What's up, my slave" when in reality he's just trying to say "What's up my friend" in the same way that black people do.
No word or phrase is inherently anything. Words gain meaning by the situation, tone of, and vessel of delivery (among other things). It's called context, you should look it up. In this context, Imus' words are racist. For that matter, being called nappy-headed has never been a positive thing amongst black people. Pleading ignorance is also bullshit, since using that phrase implies that you know what it means. What white person is so retarded that they honestly think they can get away with saying the same thing without repercussions? Oh right, that Imus fellow.
Denigrating people based on racial characteristics is racist. I can't see why you're failing to get this.
They could say it, but they should also be familiar with the social climate, so they should expect consequences.
Unfair or not, black people tend to get more freedom with words historically used to subjugate them.
Here's something from an article by some guy named Michael H. Thomas that he wrote as a semi-retraction of another article he had written before he actually listened to the show.
"Two of Imus's regulars, although never identified as such, are Rob Bartlett and Larry Kenney. Why they are never identified is that they always appear on Imus's program as someone else. Rob Bartlett is not only a comedian, but an accomplished Broadway actor. On the Imus show he appears as a burnt out "Brian Wilson" of the Beach Boys and a bald "Dr. Phil." His "Dr. Phil" impressions are remarkable and makes one believe that anyone taking the time to read a few self-help books could become a nationally known pop psychologist. One of Barlett's latest and most hilarious characters is "Lady Camilla Parker-Bowles." If you can get through the hilarity of Camilla Parker-Bowles having a full mustache, you will appreciate Bartlett's caricature of Great Britain's not so royal highness.
Larry Kenney is truly a man of a thousand voices. He can imitate almost anyone. If you don't recognize his name, you definitely have heard his voice. Ask your kids if they've ever heard of Coco Puff's Count Chocula or Sonny the Bird, yep, that's Larry Kenney! On the Imus show, Larry Kenney will show up as a drink-toting Senator Edward Kennedy, and various other characters. My favorite is a person who is supposed to control all the produce that flows into New York City each day. This character is known as "Al Tomatoes" "Tomatoes" looks like a blended cast member out of "The Godfather." Kenney is also the voice for Ross Perot, General George Patton, and Andy Rooney.
A regular feature of the program lately is executive producer Bernard McGuirk stuffing an empty FEDEX envelope on his head and portraying a hate spewing Cardinal Edward Egan. As "Cardinal Egan" with an Irish lilt chants a litany wishing dire consequences on gays, lesbians, certain Broadway plays, and politicians, the Imus cast - as respondents, follow along chanting, "Lord hear our Prayer." This segment has gotten Roman Catholic and former choirboy Bernard McGuirk listed by the Catholic League as being anti-Catholic. Of course, I'm probably listed there too; it's not hard to get on the list…See Five Catholics on the Supreme Court."
No it isn't. Unless by 'terms of familiarity' you mean a racial term, in which case you have to understand that black people are slightly sensitive about white people using terms that have been used to denigrate black people for centuries.
What are you talking about? No-one is going to go OMG if you say "that black guy over there is the one you want" and if they do, they're a dick. There's no double standard there.
Actually, you didn't need that last modifier. Black people tend to get more freedom with words. When was the last time a black person said something racially insensative towards white people and it started a shit storm from "activists" and media.
YES. For god's sake people, understand that a word like that has history. Ten years of rappers using it and the black community claiming it back doesn't mean that you can start calling black people n***** again. Complaining that "but I can't say n******!!!!" is so fucking stupid it hurts.
I can see why you don't see the double standard here. People can poke fun at other people based on racial characteristics all the time. To bring back the much hated Dave Chappell comparison, all his jokes were based on racial characteristics. He would make fun of white people for doing white people stuff, black people for doing black people stuff, etc. Say Imus (bad taste aside) was just trying to poke fun at the team, (I'm not saying this is the case). It's wrong to assume that just because he ISN'T Dave Chappell that any time he would try to joke about racial stereotypes, he's trying to denigrate someone.
I don't like being called a cracker, because I've never owned any slaves. I don't like being associated with or reminded of what my ancestors did. That doesn't mean I start a fucking war whenever I hear a black person call a white person a cracker.
to that guy above me: If the 'history' of the n-word really mattered so much, then black people wouldn't use it either. It seems the history only matters when a white person says it.
Chocolate city?
Please, for the love of God, take my word for it. Basically Imus' entire show was devoted to making fun of people. Often highly public people, right to their face, while they were talking to each other.
Oh well. I guess that's what we get for enslaving blacks for hundreds of years. As a white person, I frankly don't care if black people say something racist against whites...not too much, and especially not if it's a racist joke. I'm not saying that they aren't jackasses, but I just don't really care. I'm impervious because there isn't a history of black domination over whites. I think if there was I would be a lot more touchy. Maybe there's a double standard there. Oh well. I don't think there's anything wrong with the double standard. People say "omg double standard kill kill kill." I can only say "in due time," and we have not reached due time yet. It'll work itself out. You're not going to argue the black community out of being touchy.
Did anything at all come out of it?
Was it in the media for more than like a day?
And how was it denigrating to a race?
Sounds delicious!
Also, Alan Keyes took a great deal of flack for his comments on homosexuals while, I believe, a black professor was fired for blaming everything bad on white people.
Relatively speaking, no he does not.
So, it's all okay then...?
Your skills in rhetoric are astounding.
And i'm sure Celery remembers Professor Griff's "The Jews are wicked" comment.
Yeah, Jesse Jackson getting a little bad press for a few days is totally the same thing as the railroading Imus just got in large part to Al Sharpton and...oh yeah...Jesse Jackson. I guess that hymietown comment really hurt his standings in the community.
Privilege #2: Being more likely to get many jobs.
I wish I could decide which I want!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chocolate_City_speech