Whoever had money on Scott Brown as being the first GOP asshole to try to excuse these actions as being the outcome of "frustration", come on down to collect your 64 dollars.
Brown: and I don't know if it's related but you can just sense not only in my election and being here in Washington, people are frustrated. That they want transparency. They want their elected officials to be accountable and open and talk about the things that are affecting their daily lives. So I'm not sure if there's a connection there I certainly hope not..We need to do things better.
Guy sounds like he has the full hard on for Ayn Rand mixed in with a little bit of everything else. Christian Right Wing Fundie wacko shit with the Taxes, Government, and Catholic hate.
But then there's the Communist creed at the bottom.
So...?
So five pages in it's clear nobody has learnt a fucking thing from the Texas Census Worker thread.
A little speculation doesn't hurt. I'm assuming you meant Kentucky Census Worker. I pass that off because he pretty much wanted everyone to think that he was tied up and killed by anti government whackjobs.
True, but there were also alarm bells from the beginning regarding alternate possibilities. Anyone who brought these up got treated like shit because people were so obsessed with the opportunity to pin it on their political enemies.
And here, once again people are falling all over themselves to try and score points.
How? There's no ambiguity to this guy's actions. No alternate possibilities. He hated the IRS, and he flew his airplane into an IRS building to make a short-lived point.
Scalfin: you are completely misrepresenting what happened in that despicable thread and I'm not playing that game.
Havelock: Assuming this note is for real, the guy mixes complaints regarding
A: "presidential puppet" George Bush and "the interest of the wealthy sows at the government trough", corporate greed and the lack of healthcare reform - tipped off with a approving citation of the Communist manifesto -
with
B: a middle-class messiah-complex, anti-"Big Brother" IRS/Government screeds, anti-catholicism, anger at where his tax dollars are going and various other american-right-wing staples.
Yet somehow people are twisting this into political football by page 2.
Well, yes, there are always people who don't pay attention to details. But this position isn't new; anyone who has been paying attention to said details knows that there is a small-government small-business faction of the American political landscape, who are and have been prominent on the Internet for some time. This brand of rhetoric is not new either, as far as I can tell, except for the Catholic mention and the apparent Communist approval (both only appear once, and the latter doesn't seem approving. More of an off-hand comparison to his glib summary of capitalism, which is itself another meme that has been bouncing around lately. link from MR).
If it seems incoherent it is not. There is a thread connecting all those ideas and it is a uniform distrust of large organizations: he doesn't like the federal government, nor big businesses, nor unions, nor the Catholic church. Contra Sheep, there is no Rand here; Rand is explicitly pro-big-business and her followers tend to overuse certain phrases that don't make an appearance. But there are many non-Randian libertarians, particularly among the technology crowd (i.e., the Slashdot people I mentioned), especially because Rand was an enthusiastic supporter of strong intellectual property rights. It's the only area where she advocated an increase in government regulation.
Come on, guys. We've gone over this in the Republican thread. We know the American right-wing (who do not necessarily vote Republican; some broke for Obama in 08, and some continue to rage about the lack of third-party options) is divided into factions. Here's someone who expresses all the standard views of one of said factions, and falls neatly into the demographic which we already know tends to back such views (technology, engineering).
So it seems entirely reasonable to suggest "okay, he's unambiguously an extremist from this faction". Possibly mentally ill - an extremist because he is mentally ill? - but anyone who flies planes into buildings deliberately must be heavily convinced to some degree, I venture.
We wouldn't be expecting him to be spouting teabagger rhetoric, because the small-government wing is not entirely composed of stupid teabaggers - those are just the loudest. Here are some groups off the top of my head: there's this faction I've just described, Randians of both the internationalist pro-immigration variety and the Ron Paul anti-immigration variety, economic libertarians of the modernist Chicago "markets don't fail" school, the Austrian "markets don't fail, Hayek and Mises and Rothbard know why, and I'm going to tell you what they said" school, political libertarians espousing everything from sophisticated public choice arguments to "because the founding fathers said so dammit" screeds, teabaggers (of course), and so on. I could go on all day here.
Obviously, as we get more specific about these groups, they're going to get smaller; it ends when they stop being large enough to form a politically active unit. But at the level I've just described, I think we can coherently identify a group, how it interacts with other groups, and how it tends to vote. So, political football, okay. Why not?
Couldn't we just stick to the fact that the bulk of his screed was against taxes and he went after the IRS. Seriously, thins is like the denial that the holocaust museum shooter being right wing despite having documents full of right wing talking paints and shit about liberal media bias because there was one mention of Fox. Not even FOX News, Fox.
Guy sounds like he has the full hard on for Ayn Rand mixed in with a little bit of everything else. Christian Right Wing Fundie wacko shit with the Taxes, Government, and Catholic hate.
But then there's the Communist creed at the bottom.
So...?
So five pages in it's clear nobody has learnt a fucking thing from the Texas Census Worker thread.
A little speculation doesn't hurt. I'm assuming you meant Kentucky Census Worker. I pass that off because he pretty much wanted everyone to think that he was tied up and killed by anti government whackjobs.
True, but there were also alarm bells from the beginning regarding alternate possibilities. Anyone who brought these up got treated like shit because people were so obsessed with the opportunity to pin it on their political enemies.
And here, once again people are falling all over themselves to try and score points.
How? There's no ambiguity to this guy's actions. No alternate possibilities. He hated the IRS, and he flew his airplane into an IRS building to make a short-lived point.
Scalfin: you are completely misrepresenting what happened in that despicable thread and I'm not playing that game.
Havelock: Assuming this note is for real, the guy mixes complaints regarding
A: "presidential puppet" George Bush and "the interest of the wealthy sows at the government trough", corporate greed and the lack of healthcare reform - tipped off with a approving citation of the Communist manifesto -
with
B: a middle-class messiah-complex, anti-"Big Brother" IRS/Government screeds, anti-catholicism, anger at where his tax dollars are going and various other american-right-wing staples.
Yet somehow people are twisting this into political football by page 2.
Well, yes, there are always people who don't pay attention to details. But this position isn't new; anyone who has been paying attention to said details knows that there is a small-government small-business faction of the American political landscape, who are and have been prominent on the Internet for some time. This brand of rhetoric is not new either, as far as I can tell, except for the Catholic mention and the apparent Communist approval (both only appear once, and the latter doesn't seem approving. More of an off-hand comparison to his glib summary of capitalism, which is itself another meme that has been bouncing around lately. link from MR).
If it seems incoherent it is not. There is a thread connecting all those ideas and it is a uniform distrust of large organizations: he doesn't like the federal government, nor big businesses, nor unions, nor the Catholic church. Contra Sheep, there is no Rand here; Rand is explicitly pro-big-business and her followers tend to overuse certain phrases that don't make an appearance. But there are many non-Randian libertarians, particularly among the technology crowd (i.e., the Slashdot people I mentioned), especially because Rand was an enthusiastic supporter of strong intellectual property rights. It's the only area where she advocated an increase in government regulation.
Come on, guys. We've gone over this in the Republican thread. We know the American right-wing (who do not necessarily vote Republican; some broke for Obama in 08, and some continue to rage about the lack of third-party options) is divided into factions. Here's someone who expresses all the standard views of one of said factions, and falls neatly into the demographic which we already know tends to back such views (technology, engineering).
So it seems entirely reasonable to suggest "okay, he's unambiguously an extremist from this faction". Possibly mentally ill - an extremist because he is mentally ill? - but anyone who flies planes into buildings deliberately must be heavily convinced to some degree, I venture.
We wouldn't be expecting him to be spouting teabagger rhetoric, because the small-government wing is not entirely composed of stupid teabaggers - those are just the loudest. Here are some groups off the top of my head: there's this faction I've just described, Randians of both the internationalist pro-immigration variety and the Ron Paul anti-immigration variety, economic libertarians of the modernist Chicago "markets don't fail" school, the Austrian "markets don't fail, Hayek and Mises and Rothbard know why, and I'm going to tell you what they said" school, political libertarians espousing everything from sophisticated public choice arguments to "because the founding fathers said so dammit" screeds, teabaggers (of course), and so on. I could go on all day here.
Obviously, as we get more specific about these groups, they're going to get smaller; it ends when they stop being large enough to form a politically active unit. But at the level I've just described, I think we can coherently identify a group, how it interacts with other groups, and how it tends to vote. So, political football, okay. Why not?
Couldn't we just stick to the fact that the bulk of his screed was against taxes and he went after the IRS. Seriously, thins is like the denial that the holocaust museum shooter being right wing despite having documents full of right wing talking paints and shit about liberal media bias because there was one mention of Fox. Not even FOX News, Fox.
If it makes it easier to associate a psychotic with positions you're opposed to, go for it.
Couldn't we just stick to the fact that the bulk of his screed was against taxes and he went after the IRS. Seriously, thins is like the denial that the holocaust museum shooter being right wing despite having documents full of right wing talking paints and shit about liberal media bias because there was one mention of Fox. Not even FOX News, Fox.
There's actually a discussion on the museum shooter and how he wasn't Right Wing?
Guy was so fucking Right Wing that he wouldn't listen to the likes of Rush Limbaugh because they are not far enough Right.
Guy sounds like he has the full hard on for Ayn Rand mixed in with a little bit of everything else. Christian Right Wing Fundie wacko shit with the Taxes, Government, and Catholic hate.
But then there's the Communist creed at the bottom.
So...?
So five pages in it's clear nobody has learnt a fucking thing from the Texas Census Worker thread.
A little speculation doesn't hurt. I'm assuming you meant Kentucky Census Worker. I pass that off because he pretty much wanted everyone to think that he was tied up and killed by anti government whackjobs.
True, but there were also alarm bells from the beginning regarding alternate possibilities. Anyone who brought these up got treated like shit because people were so obsessed with the opportunity to pin it on their political enemies.
And here, once again people are falling all over themselves to try and score points.
How? There's no ambiguity to this guy's actions. No alternate possibilities. He hated the IRS, and he flew his airplane into an IRS building to make a short-lived point.
Scalfin: you are completely misrepresenting what happened in that despicable thread and I'm not playing that game.
Havelock: Assuming this note is for real, the guy mixes complaints regarding
A: "presidential puppet" George Bush and "the interest of the wealthy sows at the government trough", corporate greed and the lack of healthcare reform - tipped off with a approving citation of the Communist manifesto -
with
B: a middle-class messiah-complex, anti-"Big Brother" IRS/Government screeds, anti-catholicism, anger at where his tax dollars are going and various other american-right-wing staples.
Yet somehow people are twisting this into political football by page 2.
Well, yes, there are always people who don't pay attention to details. But this position isn't new; anyone who has been paying attention to said details knows that there is a small-government small-business faction of the American political landscape, who are and have been prominent on the Internet for some time. This brand of rhetoric is not new either, as far as I can tell, except for the Catholic mention and the apparent Communist approval (both only appear once, and the latter doesn't seem approving. More of an off-hand comparison to his glib summary of capitalism, which is itself another meme that has been bouncing around lately. link from MR).
If it seems incoherent it is not. There is a thread connecting all those ideas and it is a uniform distrust of large organizations: he doesn't like the federal government, nor big businesses, nor unions, nor the Catholic church. Contra Sheep, there is no Rand here; Rand is explicitly pro-big-business and her followers tend to overuse certain phrases that don't make an appearance. But there are many non-Randian libertarians, particularly among the technology crowd (i.e., the Slashdot people I mentioned), especially because Rand was an enthusiastic supporter of strong intellectual property rights. It's the only area where she advocated an increase in government regulation.
Come on, guys. We've gone over this in the Republican thread. We know the American right-wing (who do not necessarily vote Republican; some broke for Obama in 08, and some continue to rage about the lack of third-party options) is divided into factions. Here's someone who expresses all the standard views of one of said factions, and falls neatly into the demographic which we already know tends to back such views (technology, engineering).
So it seems entirely reasonable to suggest "okay, he's unambiguously an extremist from this faction". Possibly mentally ill - an extremist because he is mentally ill? - but anyone who flies planes into buildings deliberately must be heavily convinced to some degree, I venture.
We wouldn't be expecting him to be spouting teabagger rhetoric, because the small-government wing is not entirely composed of stupid teabaggers - those are just the loudest. Here are some groups off the top of my head: there's this faction I've just described, Randians of both the internationalist pro-immigration variety and the Ron Paul anti-immigration variety, economic libertarians of the modernist Chicago "markets don't fail" school, the Austrian "markets don't fail, Hayek and Mises and Rothbard know why, and I'm going to tell you what they said" school, political libertarians espousing everything from sophisticated public choice arguments to "because the founding fathers said so dammit" screeds, teabaggers (of course), and so on. I could go on all day here.
Obviously, as we get more specific about these groups, they're going to get smaller; it ends when they stop being large enough to form a politically active unit. But at the level I've just described, I think we can coherently identify a group, how it interacts with other groups, and how it tends to vote. So, political football, okay. Why not?
Couldn't we just stick to the fact that the bulk of his screed was against taxes and he went after the IRS. Seriously, thins is like the denial that the holocaust museum shooter being right wing despite having documents full of right wing talking paints and shit about liberal media bias because there was one mention of Fox. Not even FOX News, Fox.
I think we're talking past each other. My point is that we can coherently play political football, provided we keep in mind what we're kicking around. This guy isn't a typical incoherent raging teabagger.
But, yes, he hated taxes and flew a plane into an IRS office. Very little room for subtlety there. I did say he was right-wing. I'm just saying that a lot of distinct groups of people are, not just "[Randian] Christian Right Wing Fundie wacko shit with the Taxes, Government, and Catholic hate".
Guy sounds like he has the full hard on for Ayn Rand mixed in with a little bit of everything else. Christian Right Wing Fundie wacko shit with the Taxes, Government, and Catholic hate.
But then there's the Communist creed at the bottom.
So...?
So five pages in it's clear nobody has learnt a fucking thing from the Texas Census Worker thread.
A little speculation doesn't hurt. I'm assuming you meant Kentucky Census Worker. I pass that off because he pretty much wanted everyone to think that he was tied up and killed by anti government whackjobs.
True, but there were also alarm bells from the beginning regarding alternate possibilities. Anyone who brought these up got treated like shit because people were so obsessed with the opportunity to pin it on their political enemies.
And here, once again people are falling all over themselves to try and score points.
How? There's no ambiguity to this guy's actions. No alternate possibilities. He hated the IRS, and he flew his airplane into an IRS building to make a short-lived point.
Scalfin: you are completely misrepresenting what happened in that despicable thread and I'm not playing that game.
Havelock: Assuming this note is for real, the guy mixes complaints regarding
A: "presidential puppet" George Bush and "the interest of the wealthy sows at the government trough", corporate greed and the lack of healthcare reform - tipped off with a approving citation of the Communist manifesto -
with
B: a middle-class messiah-complex, anti-"Big Brother" IRS/Government screeds, anti-catholicism, anger at where his tax dollars are going and various other american-right-wing staples.
Yet somehow people are twisting this into political football by page 2.
Well, yes, there are always people who don't pay attention to details. But this position isn't new; anyone who has been paying attention to said details knows that there is a small-government small-business faction of the American political landscape, who are and have been prominent on the Internet for some time. This brand of rhetoric is not new either, as far as I can tell, except for the Catholic mention and the apparent Communist approval (both only appear once, and the latter doesn't seem approving. More of an off-hand comparison to his glib summary of capitalism, which is itself another meme that has been bouncing around lately. link from MR).
If it seems incoherent it is not. There is a thread connecting all those ideas and it is a uniform distrust of large organizations: he doesn't like the federal government, nor big businesses, nor unions, nor the Catholic church. Contra Sheep, there is no Rand here; Rand is explicitly pro-big-business and her followers tend to overuse certain phrases that don't make an appearance. But there are many non-Randian libertarians, particularly among the technology crowd (i.e., the Slashdot people I mentioned), especially because Rand was an enthusiastic supporter of strong intellectual property rights. It's the only area where she advocated an increase in government regulation.
Come on, guys. We've gone over this in the Republican thread. We know the American right-wing (who do not necessarily vote Republican; some broke for Obama in 08, and some continue to rage about the lack of third-party options) is divided into factions. Here's someone who expresses all the standard views of one of said factions, and falls neatly into the demographic which we already know tends to back such views (technology, engineering).
So it seems entirely reasonable to suggest "okay, he's unambiguously an extremist from this faction". Possibly mentally ill - an extremist because he is mentally ill? - but anyone who flies planes into buildings deliberately must be heavily convinced to some degree, I venture.
We wouldn't be expecting him to be spouting teabagger rhetoric, because the small-government wing is not entirely composed of stupid teabaggers - those are just the loudest. Here are some groups off the top of my head: there's this faction I've just described, Randians of both the internationalist pro-immigration variety and the Ron Paul anti-immigration variety, economic libertarians of the modernist Chicago "markets don't fail" school, the Austrian "markets don't fail, Hayek and Mises and Rothbard know why, and I'm going to tell you what they said" school, political libertarians espousing everything from sophisticated public choice arguments to "because the founding fathers said so dammit" screeds, teabaggers (of course), and so on. I could go on all day here.
Obviously, as we get more specific about these groups, they're going to get smaller; it ends when they stop being large enough to form a politically active unit. But at the level I've just described, I think we can coherently identify a group, how it interacts with other groups, and how it tends to vote. So, political football, okay. Why not?
I'm not sure you have identified what faction this guy supposedly belongs to. The only belief you seem to ascribe specifically to him is "There is a thread connecting all those ideas and it is a uniform distrust of large organizations", which on its own is merely a state of mind and not a coherent political movement. You then list a lot of things he isn't and groups he doesn't belong to. Well, in fairness you refer to a "small-government small-business" faction. But being small-government and small-business is a pretty common feature of both mainstream republicans and mainstream fiscal/economic conservatives. You then list a lot of things he isn't and groups he doesn't belong to.
Discussing an identifiable small-government and small-business faction on the right is like talking about a "pro-minority and pro-union" faction on the left. It covers too many movements. I really don't get who or what this faction you're referring to is.
Couldn't we just stick to the fact that the bulk of his screed was against taxes and he went after the IRS. Seriously, thins is like the denial that the holocaust museum shooter being right wing despite having documents full of right wing talking paints and shit about liberal media bias because there was one mention of Fox. Not even FOX News, Fox.
There's actually a discussion on the museum shooter and how he wasn't Right Wing?
Guy was so fucking Right Wing that he wouldn't listen to the likes of Rush Limbaugh because they are not far enough Right.
Bizarrely, yes. Well, at least, Fox News tried to disassociate itself from the shooter by selectively quoting a section where he hated on Fox for being insufficiently right-wing. Anyone who bought that isn't likely to be able to hold a discussion anyway.
There's insane and then there's insane, and the shooter, well.
Guy sounds like he has the full hard on for Ayn Rand mixed in with a little bit of everything else. Christian Right Wing Fundie wacko shit with the Taxes, Government, and Catholic hate.
But then there's the Communist creed at the bottom.
So...?
So five pages in it's clear nobody has learnt a fucking thing from the Texas Census Worker thread.
A little speculation doesn't hurt. I'm assuming you meant Kentucky Census Worker. I pass that off because he pretty much wanted everyone to think that he was tied up and killed by anti government whackjobs.
True, but there were also alarm bells from the beginning regarding alternate possibilities. Anyone who brought these up got treated like shit because people were so obsessed with the opportunity to pin it on their political enemies.
And here, once again people are falling all over themselves to try and score points.
How? There's no ambiguity to this guy's actions. No alternate possibilities. He hated the IRS, and he flew his airplane into an IRS building to make a short-lived point.
Scalfin: you are completely misrepresenting what happened in that despicable thread and I'm not playing that game.
Havelock: Assuming this note is for real, the guy mixes complaints regarding
A: "presidential puppet" George Bush and "the interest of the wealthy sows at the government trough", corporate greed and the lack of healthcare reform - tipped off with a approving citation of the Communist manifesto -
with
B: a middle-class messiah-complex, anti-"Big Brother" IRS/Government screeds, anti-catholicism, anger at where his tax dollars are going and various other american-right-wing staples.
Yet somehow people are twisting this into political football by page 2.
Well, yes, there are always people who don't pay attention to details. But this position isn't new; anyone who has been paying attention to said details knows that there is a small-government small-business faction of the American political landscape, who are and have been prominent on the Internet for some time. This brand of rhetoric is not new either, as far as I can tell, except for the Catholic mention and the apparent Communist approval (both only appear once, and the latter doesn't seem approving. More of an off-hand comparison to his glib summary of capitalism, which is itself another meme that has been bouncing around lately. link from MR).
If it seems incoherent it is not. There is a thread connecting all those ideas and it is a uniform distrust of large organizations: he doesn't like the federal government, nor big businesses, nor unions, nor the Catholic church. Contra Sheep, there is no Rand here; Rand is explicitly pro-big-business and her followers tend to overuse certain phrases that don't make an appearance. But there are many non-Randian libertarians, particularly among the technology crowd (i.e., the Slashdot people I mentioned), especially because Rand was an enthusiastic supporter of strong intellectual property rights. It's the only area where she advocated an increase in government regulation.
Come on, guys. We've gone over this in the Republican thread. We know the American right-wing (who do not necessarily vote Republican; some broke for Obama in 08, and some continue to rage about the lack of third-party options) is divided into factions. Here's someone who expresses all the standard views of one of said factions, and falls neatly into the demographic which we already know tends to back such views (technology, engineering).
So it seems entirely reasonable to suggest "okay, he's unambiguously an extremist from this faction". Possibly mentally ill - an extremist because he is mentally ill? - but anyone who flies planes into buildings deliberately must be heavily convinced to some degree, I venture.
We wouldn't be expecting him to be spouting teabagger rhetoric, because the small-government wing is not entirely composed of stupid teabaggers - those are just the loudest. Here are some groups off the top of my head: there's this faction I've just described, Randians of both the internationalist pro-immigration variety and the Ron Paul anti-immigration variety, economic libertarians of the modernist Chicago "markets don't fail" school, the Austrian "markets don't fail, Hayek and Mises and Rothbard know why, and I'm going to tell you what they said" school, political libertarians espousing everything from sophisticated public choice arguments to "because the founding fathers said so dammit" screeds, teabaggers (of course), and so on. I could go on all day here.
Obviously, as we get more specific about these groups, they're going to get smaller; it ends when they stop being large enough to form a politically active unit. But at the level I've just described, I think we can coherently identify a group, how it interacts with other groups, and how it tends to vote. So, political football, okay. Why not?
I'm not sure you have identified what faction this guy supposedly belongs to. The only belief you seem to ascribe specifically to him is "There is a thread connecting all those ideas and it is a uniform distrust of large organizations", which on its own is merely a state of mind and not a coherent political movement. You then list a lot of things he isn't and groups he doesn't belong to. Well, in fairness you refer to a "small-government small-business" faction. But being small-government and small-business is a pretty common feature of both mainstream republicans and mainstream fiscal/economic conservatives. You then list a lot of things he isn't and groups he doesn't belong to.
Discussing an identifiable small-government and small-business faction on the right is like talking about a "pro-minority and pro-union" faction on the left. It covers too many movements. I really don't get who or what this faction you're referring to is.
So even you note that he shows both mainstream republican AND mainstream conservative position, but we can't say he's right wing because?
I'm surprised this hasn't blown up more. By this time fox news would've already found an alleged link between him and the taliban.
Also, was the IRS reposessing his house?
I have money on Fox latching on to his off message commie throwaway line at the end and trying to paint this as left wing radicalism, ignoring the rest of his insane screed against the government, the IRS, and generally how unfair it was that he dodged taxes and was arrested for it.
Let's be honest here. If he had an "off message pro tea party throwaway line", MSNBC would be doing the exact same thing.
Keith Olberman hasn't exactly been.....sane... as of late. Not that he wasn't a silly goose to beign with, but when John Stewart starts calling you on your BS, well, that's like Fox News slamming a Republican.
That being said, I don't think he was a left-wing terrorist; he's just, like you said, a tax cheat that got caught and used this anti-government ideology as an excuse for his lying and greed.
Guy sounds like he has the full hard on for Ayn Rand mixed in with a little bit of everything else. Christian Right Wing Fundie wacko shit with the Taxes, Government, and Catholic hate.
But then there's the Communist creed at the bottom.
So...?
So five pages in it's clear nobody has learnt a fucking thing from the Texas Census Worker thread.
A little speculation doesn't hurt. I'm assuming you meant Kentucky Census Worker. I pass that off because he pretty much wanted everyone to think that he was tied up and killed by anti government whackjobs.
True, but there were also alarm bells from the beginning regarding alternate possibilities. Anyone who brought these up got treated like shit because people were so obsessed with the opportunity to pin it on their political enemies.
And here, once again people are falling all over themselves to try and score points.
How? There's no ambiguity to this guy's actions. No alternate possibilities. He hated the IRS, and he flew his airplane into an IRS building to make a short-lived point.
Scalfin: you are completely misrepresenting what happened in that despicable thread and I'm not playing that game.
Havelock: Assuming this note is for real, the guy mixes complaints regarding
A: "presidential puppet" George Bush and "the interest of the wealthy sows at the government trough", corporate greed and the lack of healthcare reform - tipped off with a approving citation of the Communist manifesto -
with
B: a middle-class messiah-complex, anti-"Big Brother" IRS/Government screeds, anti-catholicism, anger at where his tax dollars are going and various other american-right-wing staples.
Yet somehow people are twisting this into political football by page 2.
Well, yes, there are always people who don't pay attention to details. But this position isn't new; anyone who has been paying attention to said details knows that there is a small-government small-business faction of the American political landscape, who are and have been prominent on the Internet for some time. This brand of rhetoric is not new either, as far as I can tell, except for the Catholic mention and the apparent Communist approval (both only appear once, and the latter doesn't seem approving. More of an off-hand comparison to his glib summary of capitalism, which is itself another meme that has been bouncing around lately. link from MR).
If it seems incoherent it is not. There is a thread connecting all those ideas and it is a uniform distrust of large organizations: he doesn't like the federal government, nor big businesses, nor unions, nor the Catholic church. Contra Sheep, there is no Rand here; Rand is explicitly pro-big-business and her followers tend to overuse certain phrases that don't make an appearance. But there are many non-Randian libertarians, particularly among the technology crowd (i.e., the Slashdot people I mentioned), especially because Rand was an enthusiastic supporter of strong intellectual property rights. It's the only area where she advocated an increase in government regulation.
Come on, guys. We've gone over this in the Republican thread. We know the American right-wing (who do not necessarily vote Republican; some broke for Obama in 08, and some continue to rage about the lack of third-party options) is divided into factions. Here's someone who expresses all the standard views of one of said factions, and falls neatly into the demographic which we already know tends to back such views (technology, engineering).
So it seems entirely reasonable to suggest "okay, he's unambiguously an extremist from this faction". Possibly mentally ill - an extremist because he is mentally ill? - but anyone who flies planes into buildings deliberately must be heavily convinced to some degree, I venture.
We wouldn't be expecting him to be spouting teabagger rhetoric, because the small-government wing is not entirely composed of stupid teabaggers - those are just the loudest. Here are some groups off the top of my head: there's this faction I've just described, Randians of both the internationalist pro-immigration variety and the Ron Paul anti-immigration variety, economic libertarians of the modernist Chicago "markets don't fail" school, the Austrian "markets don't fail, Hayek and Mises and Rothbard know why, and I'm going to tell you what they said" school, political libertarians espousing everything from sophisticated public choice arguments to "because the founding fathers said so dammit" screeds, teabaggers (of course), and so on. I could go on all day here.
Obviously, as we get more specific about these groups, they're going to get smaller; it ends when they stop being large enough to form a politically active unit. But at the level I've just described, I think we can coherently identify a group, how it interacts with other groups, and how it tends to vote. So, political football, okay. Why not?
I'm not sure you have identified what faction this guy supposedly belongs to. The only belief you seem to ascribe specifically to him is "There is a thread connecting all those ideas and it is a uniform distrust of large organizations", which on its own is merely a state of mind and not a coherent political movement. You then list a lot of things he isn't and groups he doesn't belong to. Well, in fairness you refer to a "small-government small-business" faction. But being small-government and small-business is a pretty common feature of both mainstream republicans and mainstream fiscal/economic conservatives. You then list a lot of things he isn't and groups he doesn't belong to.
Discussing an identifiable small-government and small-business faction on the right is like talking about a "pro-minority and pro-union" faction on the left. It covers too many movements. I really don't get who or what this faction you're referring to is.
So even you note that he shows both mainstream republican AND mainstream conservative position, but we can't say he's right wing because?
I could easily pull up a bunch of articles from elected Democratic (and less commonly Republican) officials complaining about "corporate profits" (especially during the AIG scandal), or a less extreme wording of
quote:
"the joke we call the American medical system, including the drug and insurance companies, are murdering tens of thousands of people a year and stealing from the corpses and victims they cripple, and this country’s leaders don’t see this as important as bailing out a few of their vile, rich cronies"
A few years ago popular liberal sites were full of statements like "recent presidential puppet GW Bush" and "In a government full of hypocrites from top to bottom, life is as cheap as their lies and their self-serving laws". I could easily go through the archives of the HuffPo and find hysterical bleating about the patriot act and free-speech zones, and how the Bush dynasty was transforming America into a totalitarian police state, and how Sarah Palin is "America's Lipstick Fascist".
There's little in his rant that hasn't been said by both the mainstream american left and right, with the exception of the anti-catholicism.
His "manifesto" is patent Randian/Paulian Right Wing bullshit up until the very end where he name drops Bush and quotes the Communist Creed.
The Randian/Paulian Right Wing doesn't usually rail against the hospitals and insurance companies for killing thousands of people with unaffordable healthcare, or about government allowing pensions to get raided. This guy is his own special brand of looney.
His "manifesto" is patent Randian/Paulian Right Wing bullshit up until the very end where he name drops Bush and quotes the Communist Creed.
The Randian/Paulian Right Wing doesn't usually rail against the hospitals and insurance companies for killing thousands of people with unaffordable healthcare, or about government allowing pensions to get raided. This guy is his own special brand of looney.
True. As mentioned earlier in this thread, I wouldn't be surprised if the guy bluffed his little manifesto. There are so many inconsistencies.
As someone mentioned, he's probably just tax dodger that get pissed and did something stupid.
His "manifesto" is patent Randian/Paulian Right Wing bullshit up until the very end where he name drops Bush and quotes the Communist Creed.
The Randian/Paulian Right Wing doesn't usually rail against the hospitals and insurance companies for killing thousands of people with unaffordable healthcare, or about government allowing pensions to get raided. This guy is his own special brand of looney.
True. As mentioned earlier in this thread, I wouldn't be surprised if the guy bluffed his little manifesto. There are so many inconsistencies.
As someone mentioned, he's probably just tax dodger that get pissed and did something stupid.
As in he just piled as much random stuff as he could into it? Why? Do you think he had fantasies of effecting some kind of societal upheaval with his death?
As in he just piled as much random stuff as he could into it? Why? Do you think he had fantasies of effecting some kind of societal upheaval with his death?
Undoubtedly he would have created the belief that by doing this, he'd be sending a message/starting something, or he wouldn't have done anything nearly this dramatic. One does not set fire to one's home then fly a plane into a specific floor of an office building because you think you're going to go down in history as a bad pilot or random whackjob.
Now, as for bluffing I don't think he did so. I think at some point when writing out an "I'll be dead soon, this is everything that pisses me off" rant, you'll start throwing in shit that only slightly annoys you, because let's just be complete when you're pissed off enough to try and kill people you've never met.
edit: and yes, railing against companies is entirely in line with Rand. The entire point of the novel is that this one dude is SO FUCKING SMART, but everyone else profits off his brilliance. So he steals his work and runs away from the company. Essentially it appeals to people who think they're much better than their management, and should be making the big bucks because it should be based off ability, not nepotism or whatever else you think put the company rankings the way they are. It's why you see so many wanting to run their own business. Basically not having a boss is a huge plus because then you'll be a BILLIONAIRE. Or, you know, fail at running the company/not be that successful and fly a plane into a building about it.
As in he just piled as much random stuff as he could into it? Why? Do you think he had fantasies of effecting some kind of societal upheaval with his death?
Possible.
Studies of Charles Manson are interesting in that the guy is all over the place. One moment he's meek and wants to be your friend and the next he's ranting and raving and calling himself God. Saying whatever he has to say to convince anyone of anything.
Like Sarah Palin. But that's another thread...
But if the guy snapped and just went nuts, then a long, rambling, unfocused manifesto that appeals to multiple different ideals isn't unexpected.
I'm trolling a hard right political blog. This one guy's response is basically "Well I fucked your mother. How much will she charge me for a donkey punch."
Other folks are quoting him and stating "FIND HIM AND KICK HIS ASS MIKE."
High. Larry. Us.
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KalTorakOne way or another, they all end up inthe Undercity.Registered Userregular
The Fire Department Thursday night said in a statement that it “has concluded its search of the building and located the remains of two victims. Identities have not been confirmed. AFD will have ongoing operations at the site throughout the night, putting out hot spots and watching for any fire flare-ups.”
At least two people were seriously injured and a third person — a federal employee who worked in the building — was unaccounted for, fire officials said.
Not that it's surprising of course when you look at the damage.
I feel sorry for the injured and the families of the victims slain by this guy, but I hope my tax return and my homebuyer's credit was not being processed in that office.
SkyCaptain on
The RPG Bestiary - Dangerous foes and legendary monsters for D&D 4th Edition
At least only a handful of people are dead/seriously injured, could have been a lot worse. Wouldn't have surprised me if he stuck a pipebomb on him too.
Tax protesters usually evade taxes and sometimes commit acts of violence, but a number of people involved in the tax protest movement have also engaged in a variety of scams and frauds designed to capitalize on the beliefs of other tax protesters and the greed of ordinary citizens. Though they generally believe in the anti-tax rhetoric they preach, a variety of groups and individuals have worked actively to defraud others through the marketing of bogus trusts, "untax" kits or other devices that would ostensibly allow people to avoid paying income taxes.
Perhaps the most famous such tax protest organization was the California-based Your Heritage Protection Association, which, at one point in the early 1980s, could boast nearly 19,000 members. Its leader, Armen Condo, taught followers how to file papers claiming they were exempt from income taxes and urged them to pay a portion of those taxes to his organization as dues. Condo collected around $2 million before being arrested and convicted of mail and tax fraud in 1982, after which YHPA gradually died off. However, the YHPA was followed by the Pilot Connection Society, founded by Phillip and Marlene Marsh of Fresno, California. The Society sold "untax" kits to members from all 50 states, collecting more than $10 million in fees and dues before the Marshes and five associates were arrested on a variety of charges in 1993 -- with members in other states arrested subsequently
Dates and locations line up, so we may have one of the sources of this man's batshit crazy identified.
The Fire Department Thursday night said in a statement that it “has concluded its search of the building and located the remains of two victims. Identities have not been confirmed. AFD will have ongoing operations at the site throughout the night, putting out hot spots and watching for any fire flare-ups.”
At least two people were seriously injured and a third person — a federal employee who worked in the building — was unaccounted for, fire officials said.
Not that it's surprising of course when you look at the damage.
They're reporting that the pilot was among those 2 dead. I'm guessing the unaccounted person is probably dead, or was out sleeping in his car or something and didn't want to get caught.
Joseph Stack faked his own death to throw the IRS off his trail. He murdered his twin brother, strapped the corpse in a plane, and flew it remotely into the IRS building. One name change later and Stack is free from audits.
Joe the Pilot yessssss. Even I like it. But only if they make him out to be a folk hero.
I feel dirty for doing this:
Jooooeeeee, the man they call Joooeeeee
Well he robbed from the gov'ment and hid it
Stood up to the man and gave him what for
Our love for him now ain't hard to explain
The Hero of Austin, the man they call Joe
Now Joe saw the 'merican's backs breaking
He saw the citizens lament
And he saw the Tax-man taking
Every dollar and leaving five cents
So he said, "You can't do that to my people"
He said "You can't crush 'em under your heel"
Joe strapped on his hat
And in five seconds flat
Set his house a-fire.
Well he robbed from the gov'ment and hid it
Stood up to the man and gave him what for
Our love for him now ain't hard to explain
The Hero of Austin, the man they call Joe
Now here is what separates heroes
From common folk like you and I
The man they call Joe
He hopped in his plane
And headed for the city.
He posted his rant on the 'net.
He made sure we knew why.
And the man call Joe
He dived in his plane
And crashed into the IRS.
Well he robbed from the gov'ment and hid it
Stood up to the man and gave him what for
Our love for him now ain't hard to explain
The Hero of Austin, the man they call Joe
More like Jayne, the hero of Canton!
Jayne!
The Man they call Jayne!
Oh, He robbed from the rich
and he gave to the poor.
Stood up to the man
and he gave him what for.
Our love for him now
ain't hard to explain.
The hero of Canton
the man they call Jayne.
Our Jayne saw the mudders' backs breakin'.
He saw the mudders' lament.
And he saw the Magistrate takin'
every dollar and leavin' five cents.
So he said: "You can't do that to my people."
said "You can't crush them under your heel."
So Jayne strapped on his hat
and in 5 seconds flat
stole everythin' Boss Higgins had to steal.
Oh, He robbed from the rich
and he gave to the poor.
Stood up to the man
and he gave him what for.
Our love for him now
ain't hard to explain.
The hero of Canton
the man they call Jayne.
Now here is what separates heroes
from common folk like you and I.
The man they call Jayne
he turned 'round his plane
and let that money hit sky.
He dropped it onto our houses
he dropped it into our yards.
The man they called Jayne
he stole away our pain
and headed out for the stars!
(Here we go!)
He robbed from the rich
and he gave to the poor.
Stood up to the man
and he gave him what for.
Our love for him now
ain't hard to explain.
The hero of Canton
the man they call Jayne...
* He burned down his house first
* The building has an IRS office
* He was Pretty unhappy at the IRS
It's "not terrorism" (even if everyone would be calling it terrorism if the guy had been Muslim). And it "may" have been intentional (even though all the evidence points clearly towards it being intentional)
(Also looking for a better thread title...)
"White Man Declares Jihad on The IRS and Commits Terrorist Act"
that ok???
(edit)
Maybe "American Suicide Bomber Flies Plane into IRS Building in Brazen Terrorist Attack"
Posts
Couldn't we just stick to the fact that the bulk of his screed was against taxes and he went after the IRS. Seriously, thins is like the denial that the holocaust museum shooter being right wing despite having documents full of right wing talking paints and shit about liberal media bias because there was one mention of Fox. Not even FOX News, Fox.
If it makes it easier to associate a psychotic with positions you're opposed to, go for it.
There's actually a discussion on the museum shooter and how he wasn't Right Wing?
Guy was so fucking Right Wing that he wouldn't listen to the likes of Rush Limbaugh because they are not far enough Right.
I think we're talking past each other. My point is that we can coherently play political football, provided we keep in mind what we're kicking around. This guy isn't a typical incoherent raging teabagger.
But, yes, he hated taxes and flew a plane into an IRS office. Very little room for subtlety there. I did say he was right-wing. I'm just saying that a lot of distinct groups of people are, not just "[Randian] Christian Right Wing Fundie wacko shit with the Taxes, Government, and Catholic hate".
I'm not sure you have identified what faction this guy supposedly belongs to. The only belief you seem to ascribe specifically to him is "There is a thread connecting all those ideas and it is a uniform distrust of large organizations", which on its own is merely a state of mind and not a coherent political movement. You then list a lot of things he isn't and groups he doesn't belong to. Well, in fairness you refer to a "small-government small-business" faction. But being small-government and small-business is a pretty common feature of both mainstream republicans and mainstream fiscal/economic conservatives. You then list a lot of things he isn't and groups he doesn't belong to.
Discussing an identifiable small-government and small-business faction on the right is like talking about a "pro-minority and pro-union" faction on the left. It covers too many movements. I really don't get who or what this faction you're referring to is.
Bizarrely, yes. Well, at least, Fox News tried to disassociate itself from the shooter by selectively quoting a section where he hated on Fox for being insufficiently right-wing. Anyone who bought that isn't likely to be able to hold a discussion anyway.
There's insane and then there's insane, and the shooter, well.
So even you note that he shows both mainstream republican AND mainstream conservative position, but we can't say he's right wing because?
Let's be honest here. If he had an "off message pro tea party throwaway line", MSNBC would be doing the exact same thing.
Keith Olberman hasn't exactly been.....sane... as of late. Not that he wasn't a silly goose to beign with, but when John Stewart starts calling you on your BS, well, that's like Fox News slamming a Republican.
That being said, I don't think he was a left-wing terrorist; he's just, like you said, a tax cheat that got caught and used this anti-government ideology as an excuse for his lying and greed.
Margaret Thatcher
Err, no. Condemning corporate greed is quite the antithesis of Rand.
I think this falls into "not paying attention to details"...
Except the part where a corporation "steals" the design it commissioned from the main character.
Paulians despised Bush because big business/military-industrial-complex/israel/neocon/likudists/police-state etc.
The Randian/Paulian Right Wing doesn't usually rail against the hospitals and insurance companies for killing thousands of people with unaffordable healthcare, or about government allowing pensions to get raided. This guy is his own special brand of looney.
This.
Corporate servitude is a huge issue in Objectivism.
True. As mentioned earlier in this thread, I wouldn't be surprised if the guy bluffed his little manifesto. There are so many inconsistencies.
As someone mentioned, he's probably just tax dodger that get pissed and did something stupid.
As in he just piled as much random stuff as he could into it? Why? Do you think he had fantasies of effecting some kind of societal upheaval with his death?
Undoubtedly he would have created the belief that by doing this, he'd be sending a message/starting something, or he wouldn't have done anything nearly this dramatic. One does not set fire to one's home then fly a plane into a specific floor of an office building because you think you're going to go down in history as a bad pilot or random whackjob.
Now, as for bluffing I don't think he did so. I think at some point when writing out an "I'll be dead soon, this is everything that pisses me off" rant, you'll start throwing in shit that only slightly annoys you, because let's just be complete when you're pissed off enough to try and kill people you've never met.
edit: and yes, railing against companies is entirely in line with Rand. The entire point of the novel is that this one dude is SO FUCKING SMART, but everyone else profits off his brilliance. So he steals his work and runs away from the company. Essentially it appeals to people who think they're much better than their management, and should be making the big bucks because it should be based off ability, not nepotism or whatever else you think put the company rankings the way they are. It's why you see so many wanting to run their own business. Basically not having a boss is a huge plus because then you'll be a BILLIONAIRE. Or, you know, fail at running the company/not be that successful and fly a plane into a building about it.
Possible.
Studies of Charles Manson are interesting in that the guy is all over the place. One moment he's meek and wants to be your friend and the next he's ranting and raving and calling himself God. Saying whatever he has to say to convince anyone of anything.
Like Sarah Palin. But that's another thread...
But if the guy snapped and just went nuts, then a long, rambling, unfocused manifesto that appeals to multiple different ideals isn't unexpected.
This guy isn't the Unabomber by any stretch.
First I've heard about it.
Ah, never mind they didn't find anything
http://twitter.com/BreakingNews/status/9305494670
It wouldn't surprise me if there were people claiming that on the forum I quoted from earlier.
Other folks are quoting him and stating "FIND HIM AND KICK HIS ASS MIKE."
High. Larry. Us.
Our first game is now available for free on Google Play: Frontier: Isle of the Seven Gods
http://www.newgrounds.com/portal/view/528055
Though I guess 2 people did actually die today in the crash so I guess it's not so funny anymore.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/35460268/ns/us_news-life/
Not that it's surprising of course when you look at the damage.
Because he was a terrorist.
Dates and locations line up, so we may have one of the sources of this man's batshit crazy identified.
They're reporting that the pilot was among those 2 dead. I'm guessing the unaccounted person is probably dead, or was out sleeping in his car or something and didn't want to get caught.
Joseph Stack faked his own death to throw the IRS off his trail. He murdered his twin brother, strapped the corpse in a plane, and flew it remotely into the IRS building. One name change later and Stack is free from audits.
More like Jayne, the hero of Canton!
The Man they call Jayne!
Oh, He robbed from the rich
and he gave to the poor.
Stood up to the man
and he gave him what for.
Our love for him now
ain't hard to explain.
The hero of Canton
the man they call Jayne.
Our Jayne saw the mudders' backs breakin'.
He saw the mudders' lament.
And he saw the Magistrate takin'
every dollar and leavin' five cents.
So he said: "You can't do that to my people."
said "You can't crush them under your heel."
So Jayne strapped on his hat
and in 5 seconds flat
stole everythin' Boss Higgins had to steal.
Oh, He robbed from the rich
and he gave to the poor.
Stood up to the man
and he gave him what for.
Our love for him now
ain't hard to explain.
The hero of Canton
the man they call Jayne.
Now here is what separates heroes
from common folk like you and I.
The man they call Jayne
he turned 'round his plane
and let that money hit sky.
He dropped it onto our houses
he dropped it into our yards.
The man they called Jayne
he stole away our pain
and headed out for the stars!
(Here we go!)
He robbed from the rich
and he gave to the poor.
Stood up to the man
and he gave him what for.
Our love for him now
ain't hard to explain.
The hero of Canton
the man they call Jayne...
3DS FC: 5343-7720-0490
Um, yes, that's where I cribbed it from.
Well done.
3DS FC: 5343-7720-0490
"White Man Declares Jihad on The IRS and Commits Terrorist Act"
that ok???
(edit)
Maybe "American Suicide Bomber Flies Plane into IRS Building in Brazen Terrorist Attack"
Wait, that's before the manifesto came out.
Communist murders government agents in take over!