It is simply infeasible (not to mention unconscionable) to attempt to blame the mother for any injury to her fetus as that would completely control what she can are, where she worked, basically everything she did, 24/7, for 9 months.
Making a law doesn't mean you have to monitor all pregnant women 24/7. If a woman intends to give birth to her baby, it should be illegal for a woman to endanger the fetus with alcohol, drugs, skydiving, etc. I've never heard of a woman intentionally trying to give her baby brain damage or somesuch so it must be too rare to be made into a law.
If you saw a pregnant woman drinking a beer and a joint while enjoying a tan, I would hope you have the stones to slap the can and the butt out of her hands and ask her what the fuck is her problem.
If you want to feel morally superior to her and lecture her or shun her or whatever go right ahead. But please keep the laws far, far away from this sort of thing.
BTW, if you can tell a woman is pregnant there isn't any danger from drinking anymore. Alcohol damage occurs prior to 8 week, which is before a lot of women know they are pregnant. There are several studies that show drinking small amounts of alcohol regularly in the third trimester can lower the risk of premature labor and delivery.
If a woman finds out she is pregnant and quits smoking over the course of a week should she be thrown in jail for not quitting cold turkey? What if she has had an organ transplant and has to be on immunosuppressants to live, several of them are associated with increased risks of birth defects. As other people have mentioned, car accidents are far more likely to cause fetal damage than drugs or alcohol, should pregnant women not be allowed to get in cars?
It is simply infeasible (not to mention unconscionable) to attempt to blame the mother for any injury to her fetus as that would completely control what she can are, where she worked, basically everything she did, 24/7, for 9 months.
Making a law doesn't mean you have to monitor all pregnant women 24/7. If a woman intends to give birth to her baby, it should be illegal for a woman to endanger the fetus with alcohol, drugs, skydiving, etc. I've never heard of a woman intentionally trying to give her baby brain damage or somesuch so it must be too rare to be made into a law.
If you saw a pregnant woman drinking a beer and a joint while enjoying a tan, I would hope you have the stones to slap the can and the butt out of her hands and ask her what the fuck is her problem.
Cool. Now give me a scenario where you would subject a man to the same level of scrutiny.
What's that, you can't think of any?
So why intrude on a woman like that?
Men can't get pregnant.
(I know, facile, and in fact I agree with you.)
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CorehealerThe ApothecaryThe softer edge of the universe.Registered Userregular
edited February 2010
I am happy to know i'm not the only one repulsed by a law like this, even if it is coming from Utah. Maybe later I'll come back and give my two cents after I stop laughing and wanting to punch someone simultaneously.
I wish I could recall the case where the court basically said that even if you assumed the fetus was a person, under no circumstances would the law compel someone to sustain the life of another person at the risk of their own health. You can't go to jail for not saving someone from drowning, so why should a woman go to jail for not 'saving' her fetus?
Florida disagrees with you, unfortunately. To the point of ordering a women to be confined to the hospital for the duration of her pregnancy. Complete with involuntary C-section, no second opinion, basically every legal and medical bullshit you can think of.
I'm surprised Utah hasn't made THAT officially a law yet.
AtomikaLive fast and get fucked or whateverRegistered Userregular
edited February 2010
I have no problem with criminally penalizing someone who illegally obtains an unlicensed abortion, as long as access to licensed abortions is readily available..
The rest of the proposition is pure silly goosery.
I have no problem with criminally penalizing someone who illegally obtains an unlicensed abortion, as long as access to licensed abortions is readily available..
The rest of the proposition is pure silly goosery.
Agreed on the second. For the first, Utah has ONE abortion clinic, and makes abortion illegal except if the mother's life is in danger before 20 weeks. (after that health, rape and incest are allowed). With a 24 hour waiting period for all. I don't really call that ready access.
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HenroidMexican kicked from Immigration ThreadCentrism is Racism :3Registered Userregular
I have no problem with criminally penalizing someone who illegally obtains an unlicensed abortion, as long as access to licensed abortions is readily available..
The rest of the proposition is pure silly goosery.
Agreed on the second. For the first, Utah has ONE abortion clinic, and makes abortion illegal except if the mother's life is in danger before 20 weeks. (after that health, rape and incest are allowed). With a 24 hour waiting period for all. I don't really call that ready access.
Wait wait wait, I'm confused in how you wrote your post. Even if the pregnancy is a result of rape, women in Utah cannot get an abortion? Is that what you intended to say? Because that infuriates the ever loving fuck out of me.
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AtomikaLive fast and get fucked or whateverRegistered Userregular
I have no problem with criminally penalizing someone who illegally obtains an unlicensed abortion, as long as access to licensed abortions is readily available..
The rest of the proposition is pure silly goosery.
Agreed on the second. For the first, Utah has ONE abortion clinic, and makes abortion illegal except if the mother's life is in danger before 20 weeks. (after that health, rape and incest are allowed). With a 24 hour waiting period for all. I don't really call that ready access.
Hmm.
I forsee some major federal intervention in this bill's future.
I have no problem with criminally penalizing someone who illegally obtains an unlicensed abortion, as long as access to licensed abortions is readily available..
The rest of the proposition is pure silly goosery.
Agreed on the second. For the first, Utah has ONE abortion clinic, and makes abortion illegal except if the mother's life is in danger before 20 weeks. (after that health, rape and incest are allowed). With a 24 hour waiting period for all. I don't really call that ready access.
Wait wait wait, I'm confused in how you wrote your post. Even if the pregnancy is a result of rape, women in Utah cannot get an abortion? Is that what you intended to say? Because that infuriates the ever loving fuck out of me.
I'd be for nuking the whole state, but they've got some pretty scenery here and there.
So let's just hit SLC.
Too many Mormons would survive if we just hit the city. How about we compromise and use some sort of poison in the drinking water or large scale deployment of poisonus gas? The scenery would survive that.
Wait wait wait, I'm confused in how you wrote your post. Even if the pregnancy is a result of rape, women in Utah cannot get an abortion? Is that what you intended to say? Because that infuriates the ever loving fuck out of me.
It'd actually make them way more consistent than most people who are anti abortion.
I mean, if you're going to say the life of a fetus is equal to a Human's you might as well stick to that and not cop out because, by golly, she didn't choose for it to happen so now we have to murder the kid.
I have no problem with criminally penalizing someone who illegally obtains an unlicensed abortion, as long as access to licensed abortions is readily available..
The rest of the proposition is pure silly goosery.
What exactly does that mean? As far as I know there isn't a network of underground unlicensed people performing abortions in the US anymore.
The grey area is where you have a woman renewing a prescription for her ulcer even though it isn't bothering her. Or you have women going to other states that have different laws and don't fit the definition of legal abortion in Utah.
Kistra on
Animal Crossing: City Folk Lissa in Filmore 3179-9580-0076
I have no problem with criminally penalizing someone who illegally obtains an unlicensed abortion, as long as access to licensed abortions is readily available..
The rest of the proposition is pure silly goosery.
Agreed on the second. For the first, Utah has ONE abortion clinic, and makes abortion illegal except if the mother's life is in danger before 20 weeks. (after that health, rape and incest are allowed). With a 24 hour waiting period for all. I don't really call that ready access.
Wait wait wait, I'm confused in how you wrote your post. Even if the pregnancy is a result of rape, women in Utah cannot get an abortion? Is that what you intended to say? Because that infuriates the ever loving fuck out of me.
Correct! If the fetus is over 20 weeks, you are stuck with it unless it is about to kill you. Note KILL you- if you're going to be just blinded and crippled for life, well, sucks to be you.
(EDIT: and I want anyone who thinks the pro-life movement cares about women- or life- to look at that Wiki map of abortion laws pre-Roe. Notice how many of them ban abortion entirely, even if the mother is going to die if an abortion is not performed? How is THAT in any way pro life?)
I have no problem with criminally penalizing someone who illegally obtains an unlicensed abortion, as long as access to licensed abortions is readily available..
The rest of the proposition is pure silly goosery.
Agreed on the second. For the first, Utah has ONE abortion clinic, and makes abortion illegal except if the mother's life is in danger before 20 weeks. (after that health, rape and incest are allowed). With a 24 hour waiting period for all. I don't really call that ready access.
Wait wait wait, I'm confused in how you wrote your post. Even if the pregnancy is a result of rape, women in Utah cannot get an abortion? Is that what you intended to say? Because that infuriates the ever loving fuck out of me.
Correct! If the fetus is over 20 weeks, you are stuck with it unless it is about to kill you. Note KILL you- if you're going to be just blinded and crippled for life, well, sucks to be you.
(EDIT: and I want anyone who thinks the pro-life movement cares about women- or life- to look at that Wiki map of abortion laws pre-Roe. Notice how many of them ban abortion entirely, even if the mother is going to die if an abortion is not performed? How is THAT in any way pro life?)
Babies are god's little angels, the mother had to have sinful sex and is therefore impure and not fit to live.
nuka on
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AtomikaLive fast and get fucked or whateverRegistered Userregular
I have no problem with criminally penalizing someone who illegally obtains an unlicensed abortion, as long as access to licensed abortions is readily available..
The rest of the proposition is pure silly goosery.
What exactly does that mean? As far as I know there isn't a network of underground unlicensed people performing abortions in the US anymore.
What I mean is that any attempt at non-licensed surgeries (not just abortions) can lead to myriad problems that will go on to detrimentally effect the patient, the State's resources, and in this case possibly the child that might be born anyway, albeit with severe and debilitating defects.
I'm against anyone obtaining unlicensed surgery, anywhere.
Atomika on
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HenroidMexican kicked from Immigration ThreadCentrism is Racism :3Registered Userregular
I have no problem with criminally penalizing someone who illegally obtains an unlicensed abortion, as long as access to licensed abortions is readily available..
The rest of the proposition is pure silly goosery.
Agreed on the second. For the first, Utah has ONE abortion clinic, and makes abortion illegal except if the mother's life is in danger before 20 weeks. (after that health, rape and incest are allowed). With a 24 hour waiting period for all. I don't really call that ready access.
Wait wait wait, I'm confused in how you wrote your post. Even if the pregnancy is a result of rape, women in Utah cannot get an abortion? Is that what you intended to say? Because that infuriates the ever loving fuck out of me.
Correct! If the fetus is over 20 weeks, you are stuck with it unless it is about to kill you. Note KILL you- if you're going to be just blinded and crippled for life, well, sucks to be you.
(EDIT: and I want anyone who thinks the pro-life movement cares about women- or life- to look at that Wiki map of abortion laws pre-Roe. Notice how many of them ban abortion entirely, even if the mother is going to die if an abortion is not performed? How is THAT in any way pro life?)
Isn't 20 weeks the third trimester? (I'm bad at this shit, I apologize if I'm way off)
If that's the case, that's actually not a problem. Late-term abortions (except in extreme health danger / possible death) aren't something I sit well with as a concept.
I have no problem with criminally penalizing someone who illegally obtains an unlicensed abortion, as long as access to licensed abortions is readily available..
The rest of the proposition is pure silly goosery.
What exactly does that mean? As far as I know there isn't a network of underground unlicensed people performing abortions in the US anymore.
What I mean is that any attempt at non-licensed surgeries (not just abortions) can lead to myriad problems that will go on to detrimentally effect the patient, the State's resources, and in this case possibly the child that might be born anyway, albeit with severe and debilitating defects.
I'm against anyone obtaining unlicensed surgery, anywhere.
Are unlicensed surgeries really such a frequent happening in the US right now to require these sorts of laws? With life in prison for the person seeking the surgery and a slap on the wrist for the person performing the surgery?
The stories I hear of illegal abortions happening currently in the US are women sharing prescriptions for medications or drinking themselves to the point of alcohol poisoning.
Kistra on
Animal Crossing: City Folk Lissa in Filmore 3179-9580-0076
I have no problem with criminally penalizing someone who illegally obtains an unlicensed abortion, as long as access to licensed abortions is readily available..
The rest of the proposition is pure silly goosery.
Agreed on the second. For the first, Utah has ONE abortion clinic, and makes abortion illegal except if the mother's life is in danger before 20 weeks. (after that health, rape and incest are allowed). With a 24 hour waiting period for all. I don't really call that ready access.
Wait wait wait, I'm confused in how you wrote your post. Even if the pregnancy is a result of rape, women in Utah cannot get an abortion? Is that what you intended to say? Because that infuriates the ever loving fuck out of me.
Correct! If the fetus is over 20 weeks, you are stuck with it unless it is about to kill you. Note KILL you- if you're going to be just blinded and crippled for life, well, sucks to be you.
(EDIT: and I want anyone who thinks the pro-life movement cares about women- or life- to look at that Wiki map of abortion laws pre-Roe. Notice how many of them ban abortion entirely, even if the mother is going to die if an abortion is not performed? How is THAT in any way pro life?)
Isn't 20 weeks the third trimester? (I'm bad at this shit, I apologize if I'm way off)
If that's the case, that's actually not a problem. Late-term abortions (except in extreme health danger / possible death) aren't something I sit well with as a concept.
Um no. Not at all. Pregnancy is 40 weeks long. Thats 13 weeks per trimester.
And late term abortions really should be the least controversial of all. I really don't understand the opposition to them. Either the mother or the baby is dying, or more likely, both.
Kistra on
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HenroidMexican kicked from Immigration ThreadCentrism is Racism :3Registered Userregular
edited February 2010
Is it really bad that an unlicensed surgery law is in effect even if the act is nigh-existent (as you seem to pushing to make the point on)? I mean, unlicensed surgery is sort of a bad idea anyhow.
Hell, there's laws about bestiality. But is that a wide-spread thing?
Nobody carries a pregnancy well into the waddling watermelon smuggler phase and then suddenly decides they don't want it any more, barring something going catastrophically wrong.
Is it really bad that an unlicensed surgery law is in effect even if the act is nigh-existent (as you seem to pushing to make the point on)? I mean, unlicensed surgery is sort of a bad idea anyhow.
Hell, there's laws about bestiality. But is that a wide-spread thing?
One that is as badly written as this one? I would much rather not have a law punishing the person that seeks the illegal surgery than have this law.
Kistra on
Animal Crossing: City Folk Lissa in Filmore 3179-9580-0076
I'd be for nuking the whole state, but they've got some pretty scenery here and there.
So let's just hit SLC.
Too many Mormons would survive if we just hit the city. How about we compromise and use some sort of poison in the drinking water or large scale deployment of poisonus gas? The scenery would survive that.
Nobody carries a pregnancy well into the waddling watermelon smuggler phase and then suddenly decides they don't want it any more, barring something going catastrophically wrong.
"I'm having this baby to squeeze more child support out of my recently divorced husband! Oh wait, he just died. To the abortion clinic!"
Well, they are just debating the bill, so at least it isn't law. That said, presenting it alone is pretty awful.
I don't really understand why people seem to think it's easier to prosecute women than it is to just give free, useful prenatal care. I mean, are they under the impression many women willfully miscarry?
Because, in the eyes of a lot of pro-lifers, women are not people. Or they stop being people as soon as she has a baby growing in her. And such a silly thing like human rights should never stand in the way of a BABY!
This bill is really just political grandstanding. If it even passes, it will never pass constitutional muster.
On the subject of death and daemons disappearing: arrows sure are effective in Lyra's universe. Seems like if you get shot once, you're dead - no lingering deaths with your daemon huddling pitifully in your arms, just *thunk* *argh* *whoosh*. A battlefield full of the dying would just be so much more depressing when you add in wailing gerbils and dogs.
Nobody carries a pregnancy well into the waddling watermelon smuggler phase and then suddenly decides they don't want it any more, barring something going catastrophically wrong.
That's an incredibly poetic way of describing the mid to late third trimester. Better than anything I have.
It is simply infeasible (not to mention unconscionable) to attempt to blame the mother for any injury to her fetus as that would completely control what she can are, where she worked, basically everything she did, 24/7, for 9 months.
Making a law doesn't mean you have to monitor all pregnant women 24/7. If a woman intends to give birth to her baby, it should be illegal for a woman to endanger the fetus with alcohol, drugs, skydiving, etc. I've never heard of a woman intentionally trying to give her baby brain damage or somesuch so it must be too rare to be made into a law.
If you saw a pregnant woman drinking a beer and a joint while enjoying a tan, I would hope you have the stones to slap the can and the butt out of her hands and ask her what the fuck is her problem.
Exactly. There's a big difference between driving because you have to to do anything these days and taking an unnecessary risk because you really want a glass of wine.
It is simply infeasible (not to mention unconscionable) to attempt to blame the mother for any injury to her fetus as that would completely control what she can are, where she worked, basically everything she did, 24/7, for 9 months.
Making a law doesn't mean you have to monitor all pregnant women 24/7. If a woman intends to give birth to her baby, it should be illegal for a woman to endanger the fetus with alcohol, drugs, skydiving, etc. I've never heard of a woman intentionally trying to give her baby brain damage or somesuch so it must be too rare to be made into a law.
If you saw a pregnant woman drinking a beer and a joint while enjoying a tan, I would hope you have the stones to slap the can and the butt out of her hands and ask her what the fuck is her problem.
Exactly. There's a big difference between driving because you have to to do anything these days and taking an unnecessary risk because you really want a glass of wine.
Change "a glass of wine" to " to get smashed" and you have a point. :P
Cat pointed out earlier in the thread that past the very early stages of the pregnancy small amounts of alchohol seem to pose no measurable risk.
It is simply infeasible (not to mention unconscionable) to attempt to blame the mother for any injury to her fetus as that would completely control what she can are, where she worked, basically everything she did, 24/7, for 9 months.
Making a law doesn't mean you have to monitor all pregnant women 24/7. If a woman intends to give birth to her baby, it should be illegal for a woman to endanger the fetus with alcohol, drugs, skydiving, etc. I've never heard of a woman intentionally trying to give her baby brain damage or somesuch so it must be too rare to be made into a law.
If you saw a pregnant woman drinking a beer and a joint while enjoying a tan, I would hope you have the stones to slap the can and the butt out of her hands and ask her what the fuck is her problem.
Exactly. There's a big difference between driving because you have to to do anything these days and taking an unnecessary risk because you really want a glass of wine.
Most of the damage from alcohol is done before the baby is showing. And small amounts later can actually HELP. You don't get FAS from one goosing glass of wine. Driving, on the other hand...
Also again, see the Florida case, which is basically takes this argument to its inevitable legal conclusion. It isn't pretty.
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AtomikaLive fast and get fucked or whateverRegistered Userregular
Are unlicensed surgeries really such a frequent happening in the US right now to require these sorts of laws? With life in prison for the person seeking the surgery and a slap on the wrist for the person performing the surgery?
Most unlicensed surgeries aren't a noticeable problem until two or three days post-op, when the infection sets in. That's when people go to the actual hospital and have to be treated by emergency care laws at (usually) the hospital's expense. That little $200 back-alley abortion ends up costing taxpayers hundreds of thousands in medical fees.
Of course, the rational recourse isn't to spend hundreds of thousands more dollars in court costs and imprisonment, but to open more clinics to ensure this doesn't have to happen.
There are a few under-the-table plastic surgery places, and you'll sometimes get people in the backwoods or poor urban areas performing minor surgeries on each other because they can't afford a doctor/afford the police attention.
It's really not very common at all, but it does happen, so it's not unreasonable to pass some laws regarding it. There's already laws against practicing medicine without a license, but with the whole mess of murder vs. abortion in the eyes of the law, it wouldn't be bad to say "unlicensed abortion procedure = bad" in clear language.
I know a fellow in the States who's had certain things done that would most certainly be considered illegal and unlicensed, in terms of health care.
Health care in the US is pretty expensive. If you couldn't afford something, but still thought it was something you needed for the sake of your quality of life, would you really shirk away from the black market to get it done?
I agree with Ross, I guess.
Ego on
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AtomikaLive fast and get fucked or whateverRegistered Userregular
Oh my god the state legislature is really determined to make the entire state look like goddamned idiots this year. Don't forget about Chris "let's cut out 12th grade" "this bill is an ugly black baby" "intelligent design is science" Buttars. Really the proper solution is tactical nuclear strikes on every part of Utah outside of SLC proper.
Also, this has nearly everything to do with the LDS church. Not directly (ok, mostly not directly), but due to the culture it spawns and how many facets of member's lives the church affects. There is a very distinct LDS culture here, and unfortunately there is such a "brotherly" feeling among many LDS people that it leads to a hell of a lot of nepotism and corruption.
Oh my god the state legislature is really determined to make the entire state look like goddamned idiots this year. Don't forget about Chris "let's cut out 12th grade" "this bill is an ugly black baby" "intelligent design is science" Buttars. Really the proper solution is tactical nuclear strikes on every part of Utah outside of SLC proper.
Also, this has nearly everything to do with the LDS church. Not directly (ok, mostly not directly), but due to the culture it spawns and how many facets of member's lives the church affects. There is a very distinct LDS culture here, and unfortunately there is such a "brotherly" feeling among many LDS people that it leads to a hell of a lot of nepotism and corruption.
That "brotherly" feeling along with loads of nepotism and corruption? Yeah, that isn't unique to Utah by any stretch. Nor is Utah probably the worst example of it in the US of A.
Posts
If you want to feel morally superior to her and lecture her or shun her or whatever go right ahead. But please keep the laws far, far away from this sort of thing.
BTW, if you can tell a woman is pregnant there isn't any danger from drinking anymore. Alcohol damage occurs prior to 8 week, which is before a lot of women know they are pregnant. There are several studies that show drinking small amounts of alcohol regularly in the third trimester can lower the risk of premature labor and delivery.
If a woman finds out she is pregnant and quits smoking over the course of a week should she be thrown in jail for not quitting cold turkey? What if she has had an organ transplant and has to be on immunosuppressants to live, several of them are associated with increased risks of birth defects. As other people have mentioned, car accidents are far more likely to cause fetal damage than drugs or alcohol, should pregnant women not be allowed to get in cars?
Those sorts of laws do not protect babies. They simply make drug addicts and women with issues afraid to seek out prenatal care. Prenatal care can actually mitigate most of the increased risks faced by drug addicted pregnant women and their fetuses. It makes no sense to punish these women for seeking out prenatal care.
Men can't get pregnant.
(I know, facile, and in fact I agree with you.)
Florida disagrees with you, unfortunately. To the point of ordering a women to be confined to the hospital for the duration of her pregnancy. Complete with involuntary C-section, no second opinion, basically every legal and medical bullshit you can think of.
I'm surprised Utah hasn't made THAT officially a law yet.
We're like that M. Night Shyamalan ending you never expected.
The rest of the proposition is pure silly goosery.
Agreed on the second. For the first, Utah has ONE abortion clinic, and makes abortion illegal except if the mother's life is in danger before 20 weeks. (after that health, rape and incest are allowed). With a 24 hour waiting period for all. I don't really call that ready access.
Wait wait wait, I'm confused in how you wrote your post. Even if the pregnancy is a result of rape, women in Utah cannot get an abortion? Is that what you intended to say? Because that infuriates the ever loving fuck out of me.
Hmm.
I forsee some major federal intervention in this bill's future.
This page has a nice table on it that everyone should read if they don't understand abortion laws on a state by state basis.
It's techincally legal to have an abortion in Utah, it's just nigh impossible to do.
EDIT: http://www.prochoiceamerica.org/choice-action-center/in_your_state/who-decides/state-profiles/utah.html
I have no idea how biased this site is.
1. This has nothing to do with the LDS Church and is more a problem with the rampant crazy stupid conservatism that exists in the entire Nation.
2. Fuck you Couscous and Decomposey for even joking about this.
Arch,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t_goGR39m2k
It'd actually make them way more consistent than most people who are anti abortion.
I mean, if you're going to say the life of a fetus is equal to a Human's you might as well stick to that and not cop out because, by golly, she didn't choose for it to happen so now we have to murder the kid.
What exactly does that mean? As far as I know there isn't a network of underground unlicensed people performing abortions in the US anymore.
The grey area is where you have a woman renewing a prescription for her ulcer even though it isn't bothering her. Or you have women going to other states that have different laws and don't fit the definition of legal abortion in Utah.
Correct! If the fetus is over 20 weeks, you are stuck with it unless it is about to kill you. Note KILL you- if you're going to be just blinded and crippled for life, well, sucks to be you.
(EDIT: and I want anyone who thinks the pro-life movement cares about women- or life- to look at that Wiki map of abortion laws pre-Roe. Notice how many of them ban abortion entirely, even if the mother is going to die if an abortion is not performed? How is THAT in any way pro life?)
What I mean is that any attempt at non-licensed surgeries (not just abortions) can lead to myriad problems that will go on to detrimentally effect the patient, the State's resources, and in this case possibly the child that might be born anyway, albeit with severe and debilitating defects.
I'm against anyone obtaining unlicensed surgery, anywhere.
Isn't 20 weeks the third trimester? (I'm bad at this shit, I apologize if I'm way off)
If that's the case, that's actually not a problem. Late-term abortions (except in extreme health danger / possible death) aren't something I sit well with as a concept.
Are unlicensed surgeries really such a frequent happening in the US right now to require these sorts of laws? With life in prison for the person seeking the surgery and a slap on the wrist for the person performing the surgery?
The stories I hear of illegal abortions happening currently in the US are women sharing prescriptions for medications or drinking themselves to the point of alcohol poisoning.
Um no. Not at all. Pregnancy is 40 weeks long. Thats 13 weeks per trimester.
And late term abortions really should be the least controversial of all. I really don't understand the opposition to them. Either the mother or the baby is dying, or more likely, both.
Hell, there's laws about bestiality. But is that a wide-spread thing?
They tried to bury us. They didn't know that we were seeds. 2018 Midterms. Get your shit together.
One that is as badly written as this one? I would much rather not have a law punishing the person that seeks the illegal surgery than have this law.
Then why is it always Utah?
"I'm having this baby to squeeze more child support out of my recently divorced husband! Oh wait, he just died. To the abortion clinic!"
*waddles away*
Because, in the eyes of a lot of pro-lifers, women are not people. Or they stop being people as soon as she has a baby growing in her. And such a silly thing like human rights should never stand in the way of a BABY!
This bill is really just political grandstanding. If it even passes, it will never pass constitutional muster.
That's an incredibly poetic way of describing the mid to late third trimester. Better than anything I have.
Change "a glass of wine" to " to get smashed" and you have a point. :P
Cat pointed out earlier in the thread that past the very early stages of the pregnancy small amounts of alchohol seem to pose no measurable risk.
Most of the damage from alcohol is done before the baby is showing. And small amounts later can actually HELP. You don't get FAS from one goosing glass of wine. Driving, on the other hand...
Also again, see the Florida case, which is basically takes this argument to its inevitable legal conclusion. It isn't pretty.
Most unlicensed surgeries aren't a noticeable problem until two or three days post-op, when the infection sets in. That's when people go to the actual hospital and have to be treated by emergency care laws at (usually) the hospital's expense. That little $200 back-alley abortion ends up costing taxpayers hundreds of thousands in medical fees.
Of course, the rational recourse isn't to spend hundreds of thousands more dollars in court costs and imprisonment, but to open more clinics to ensure this doesn't have to happen.
It's really not very common at all, but it does happen, so it's not unreasonable to pass some laws regarding it. There's already laws against practicing medicine without a license, but with the whole mess of murder vs. abortion in the eyes of the law, it wouldn't be bad to say "unlicensed abortion procedure = bad" in clear language.
Health care in the US is pretty expensive. If you couldn't afford something, but still thought it was something you needed for the sake of your quality of life, would you really shirk away from the black market to get it done?
I agree with Ross, I guess.
I . . . I'm n-not sure that's ever happened.
Wow.
Don't worry, agreements on this forum last as long as alliances in Diplomacy.
Also, this has nearly everything to do with the LDS church. Not directly (ok, mostly not directly), but due to the culture it spawns and how many facets of member's lives the church affects. There is a very distinct LDS culture here, and unfortunately there is such a "brotherly" feeling among many LDS people that it leads to a hell of a lot of nepotism and corruption.
That "brotherly" feeling along with loads of nepotism and corruption? Yeah, that isn't unique to Utah by any stretch. Nor is Utah probably the worst example of it in the US of A.