That "brotherly" feeling along with loads of nepotism and corruption? Yeah, that isn't unique to Utah by any stretch. Nor is Utah probably the worst example of it in the US of A.
Eh, Utah seems pretty brazen about it. Certainly from a religious standpoint.
That "brotherly" feeling along with loads of nepotism and corruption? Yeah, that isn't unique to Utah by any stretch. Nor is Utah probably the worst example of it in the US of A.
Eh, Utah seems pretty brazen about it. Certainly from a religious standpoint.
Yeah, not really. You can't go off on the Mormons without also going off on Evangelical establishment states, like the deep south.
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AtomikaLive fast and get fucked or whateverRegistered Userregular
That "brotherly" feeling along with loads of nepotism and corruption? Yeah, that isn't unique to Utah by any stretch. Nor is Utah probably the worst example of it in the US of A.
Eh, Utah seems pretty brazen about it. Certainly from a religious standpoint.
Yeah, not really. You can't go off on the Mormons without also going off on Evangelical establishment states, like the deep south.
Oh, for sure, but at least in the South it's much more diffuse, and there's several different factions of religious sectarianism. The State of Utah is like 100% concentrated Mormon.
I think the big difference is that in the South, people just assume everyone is Evangelical, whereas Utah actively legislates to enforce it.
Nobody carries a pregnancy well into the waddling watermelon smuggler phase and then suddenly decides they don't want it any more, barring something going catastrophically wrong.
"I'm having this baby to squeeze more child support out of my recently divorced husband! Oh wait, he just died. To the abortion clinic!"
*waddles away*
Ah, I can always count on the emmnmnmnemeneme show. Run into a thread, say something wall-eyed-stupid with a thin dusting of misogyny on top, then spend three pages backtracking and making snide comments about how you were joking and your sense of humour is just too sophisticated for the board. And you've done it twice in this thread! Must have eaten your weeties this morning!
That "brotherly" feeling along with loads of nepotism and corruption? Yeah, that isn't unique to Utah by any stretch. Nor is Utah probably the worst example of it in the US of A.
Eh, Utah seems pretty brazen about it. Certainly from a religious standpoint.
Yeah, not really. You can't go off on the Mormons without also going off on Evangelical establishment states, like the deep south.
Oh, for sure, but at least in the South it's much more diffuse, and there's several different factions of religious sectarianism. The State of Utah is like 100% concentrated Mormon.
I think the big difference is that in the South, people just assume everyone is Evangelical, whereas Utah actively legislates to enforce it.
Actually it's more like 70%, according to wikipedia. Not 100%, but still a large majority. While here in the 'Deep South', Evangelicals are diffused by many much less radical groups, both religious and otherwise.
I'm not saying there aren't parts of the South that deserve tactical nukes, but they're more scattered and less powerful.
Except for Florida. Florida (mostly) doesn't count as part of the South.
Decomposey on
Before following any advice, opinions, or thoughts I may have expressed in the above post, be warned: I found Keven Costners "Waterworld" to be a very entertaining film.
Are unlicensed surgeries really such a frequent happening in the US right now to require these sorts of laws? With life in prison for the person seeking the surgery and a slap on the wrist for the person performing the surgery?
Most unlicensed surgeries aren't a noticeable problem until two or three days post-op, when the infection sets in. That's when people go to the actual hospital and have to be treated by emergency care laws at (usually) the hospital's expense. That little $200 back-alley abortion ends up costing taxpayers hundreds of thousands in medical fees.
Of course, the rational recourse isn't to spend hundreds of thousands more dollars in court costs and imprisonment, but to open more clinics to ensure this doesn't have to happen.
I understand the problems that occur with illegal surgeries.
How many women come into your ER in a given month after having an unlicensed surgical abortion?
How many come in having/threatening/had a miscarriage in a month?
My position is that being able to punish the women that seek out illegal unlicensed surgical abortions with life in prison is not a reasonable response. And the size of the problem is small enough that it doesn't warrant making the default position of the law be that having a miscarriage is illegal until proven otherwise.
Kistra on
Animal Crossing: City Folk Lissa in Filmore 3179-9580-0076
Wow, it's like.. it's like we've got our own little Australia. Baren wasteland with a whole bunch of crazy mcfuckers running the local government. The only thing now we need is animals that ooze poison.
Yeah, no. We're nothing like Utah, thanks.
It was more a gibe at the crazy fucking lunatic policies, like, oh I don't know, "banning" adult material and filtering the internet.
Not "olol next Australia is gonna ban miscarriages 'cause they hate women" so please don't take my comment for some misogynistic comment about your country and their policies when there wasn't really one there to begin with.
bowen on
not a doctor, not a lawyer, examples I use may not be fully researched so don't take out of context plz, don't @ me
Ah, I can always count on the emmnmnmnemeneme show. Run into a thread, say something wall-eyed-stupid with a thin dusting of misogyny on top, then spend three pages backtracking and making snide comments about how you were joking and your sense of humour is just too sophisticated for the board. And you've done it twice in this thread! Must have eaten your weeties this morning!
:arrow:
Heh, my snide is nothing against your snark. If I study hard enough, maybe my wall-eyed stupid will match your half-baked misandry some day.
So, has anyone kicked off the usual "mail your used tampons to the local police so they can check if you're a criminal" campaign yet? Because those are always fun.
Oh, those mean ol' male mayors! A female politician would never propose such outrageous policies whereas a man licks his lips at the prospect of protecting damsels from themselves.
Wow, it's like.. it's like we've got our own little Australia. Baren wasteland with a whole bunch of crazy mcfuckers running the local government. The only thing now we need is animals that ooze poison.
Yeah, no. We're nothing like Utah, thanks.
It was more a gibe at the crazy fucking lunatic policies, like, oh I don't know, "banning" adult material and filtering the internet.
Not "olol next Australia is gonna ban miscarriages 'cause they hate women" so please don't take my comment for some misogynistic comment about your country and their policies when there wasn't really one there to begin with.
Misogynistic?
Iaculus on
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CorehealerThe ApothecaryThe softer edge of the universe.Registered Userregular
edited February 2010
Wikipedia:
Misogyny (pronounced /mɪˈsɒdʒɪni/) is hatred (or contempt) of women or girls. Misogyny comes from Greek misogunia (μισογυνία) from misos (μῖσος, hatred) and gynē (γυνή, woman). It is parallel to misandry—the hatred of men or boys. Misogyny is also comparable with (but not the same as) misanthropy which is the hatred of humanity in general. The prefix miso-, meaning hatred or to hate applies in many other words, such as misandrist, misocapny, misogamy, misarchy and misoxeny.
Misogyny (pronounced /mɪˈsɒdʒɪni/) is hatred (or contempt) of women or girls. Misogyny comes from Greek misogunia (μισογυνία) from misos (μῖσος, hatred) and gynē (γυνή, woman). It is parallel to misandry—the hatred of men or boys. Misogyny is also comparable with (but not the same as) misanthropy which is the hatred of humanity in general. The prefix miso-, meaning hatred or to hate applies in many other words, such as misandrist, misocapny, misogamy, misarchy and misoxeny.
I'm aware of that, but didn't see how a snide remark about a country could be construed as misogynistic. Unless Australia's entire male population died off since I last went there, anyway. I'm open to new information.
Misogyny (pronounced /mɪˈsɒdʒɪni/) is hatred (or contempt) of women or girls. Misogyny comes from Greek misogunia (μισογυνία) from misos (μῖσος, hatred) and gynē (γυνή, woman). It is parallel to misandry—the hatred of men or boys. Misogyny is also comparable with (but not the same as) misanthropy which is the hatred of humanity in general. The prefix miso-, meaning hatred or to hate applies in many other words, such as misandrist, misocapny, misogamy, misarchy and misoxeny.
I'm aware of that, but didn't see how a snide remark about a country could be construed as misogynistic. Unless Australia's entire male population died off since I last went there, anyway. I'm open to new information.
I think what he meant was that he wasn't saying Australia was misogynistic.
HamHamJ on
While racing light mechs, your Urbanmech comes in second place, but only because it ran out of ammo.
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CorehealerThe ApothecaryThe softer edge of the universe.Registered Userregular
Misogyny (pronounced /mɪˈsɒdʒɪni/) is hatred (or contempt) of women or girls. Misogyny comes from Greek misogunia (μισογυνία) from misos (μῖσος, hatred) and gynē (γυνή, woman). It is parallel to misandry—the hatred of men or boys. Misogyny is also comparable with (but not the same as) misanthropy which is the hatred of humanity in general. The prefix miso-, meaning hatred or to hate applies in many other words, such as misandrist, misocapny, misogamy, misarchy and misoxeny.
I'm aware of that, but didn't see how a snide remark about a country could be construed as misogynistic. Unless Australia's entire male population died off since I last went there, anyway. I'm open to new information.
A good question. A better country to refer to as misogynistic would be Saudi Arabia, not Australia.
Misogyny (pronounced /mɪˈsɒdʒɪni/) is hatred (or contempt) of women or girls. Misogyny comes from Greek misogunia (μισογυνία) from misos (μῖσος, hatred) and gynē (γυνή, woman). It is parallel to misandry—the hatred of men or boys. Misogyny is also comparable with (but not the same as) misanthropy which is the hatred of humanity in general. The prefix miso-, meaning hatred or to hate applies in many other words, such as misandrist, misocapny, misogamy, misarchy and misoxeny.
I'm aware of that, but didn't see how a snide remark about a country could be construed as misogynistic. Unless Australia's entire male population died off since I last went there, anyway. I'm open to new information.
I think what he meant was that he wasn't saying Australia was misogynistic.
Not "olol next Australia is gonna ban miscarriages 'cause they hate women" so please don't take my comment for some misogynistic comment about your country and their policies when there wasn't really one there to begin with.
Well, yeah, maybe, but it certainly didn't end up looking like that.
Misogyny (pronounced /mɪˈsɒdʒɪni/) is hatred (or contempt) of women or girls. Misogyny comes from Greek misogunia (μισογυνία) from misos (μῖσος, hatred) and gynē (γυνή, woman). It is parallel to misandry—the hatred of men or boys. Misogyny is also comparable with (but not the same as) misanthropy which is the hatred of humanity in general. The prefix miso-, meaning hatred or to hate applies in many other words, such as misandrist, misocapny, misogamy, misarchy and misoxeny.
I'm aware of that, but didn't see how a snide remark about a country could be construed as misogynistic. Unless Australia's entire male population died off since I last went there, anyway. I'm open to new information.
I think what he meant was that he wasn't saying Australia was misogynistic.
Basically. Cat is the regular misandrist and tends to over-analyze when someone says something that deals with women and takes it completely out of context. I'm didn't really delve too deep into what emnmnme said originally but it stands to reason that she's getting very defensive about women's rights in this thread.
In my case I made some off the wall comment about some political crazies going on with weird ass laws and she had assumed (I'm guessing) that I was inferring that Australia is full of misogynists and they're going to inact some anti-miscarriage laws in the near future and correlating that particular crazy with Utah.
Had I been referring to actual misogyny there, I would've definitely chosen a better country, but I wasn't, just pointing out that crazies are crazy, and they're all over the place. As well as making a gibe at Australia being a fucking frightful country to begin with. Couple that with Cat being from Australia and a woman, and I guess I could see the concern there.
bowen on
not a doctor, not a lawyer, examples I use may not be fully researched so don't take out of context plz, don't @ me
I have no problem with criminally penalizing someone who illegally obtains an unlicensed abortion, as long as access to licensed abortions is readily available..
The rest of the proposition is pure silly goosery.
Agreed on the second. For the first, Utah has ONE abortion clinic, and makes abortion illegal except if the mother's life is in danger before 20 weeks. (after that health, rape and incest are allowed). With a 24 hour waiting period for all. I don't really call that ready access.
So in everyones hubub to condemn Utah, no one wanted to clarify the facts here?
Last time I checked there were anywhere from 3-6 clinics in Utah. However, given the overwhelming population of Mormons, as others have pointed out, there isn't as much of a demand for them.
Regardless of that; there isn't a massive difference in "ready access" to clinics in Utah compared to the rest of the country.
It is easy to cherry pick and make it sound bad but if you look at the facts, the availability of clinics in Utah is only marginally worse than the national average.
The law that virtually makes abortion illegal was only just passed and absolutely will not hold up in federal court when it is inevitably challenged. I would also point out that Utah isn't the first, or only, state to pass, or attempt to pass laws like this. Many states have laws that will criminalize abortion the second the supreme court ever says "well, states can choose" (i.e. some douchetard like Palin gets elected and we have the unfortunate timing of the few left leaning judges retiring, and manages to at least partially overturn RvW).
Don't get me wrong. I'm not defending Utah because I think the laws or whatever are right and good. I think it's stupid and the fact that something like that could even pass is idiotic and says a lot about the politics here. Pretty much every time I read the news about new laws or policies in Utah I just have to shake my head at the idiocy of it all. Hey, budget shortfalls? Lets remove education to make up for it! Yeah, brilliant. Lets make an already undereducated society even dumber! That will solve our social ills! So say conservatives these days I suppose. Being educated makes you "elite" and being elite makes you a communist.
Utah does enough that is reprehensible, this is coming from someone living here, who is also Mormon; but if folks want to bash Utah there are enough things to do it on that are based on factual information and not cherry picking information for sensationalized arguments, to do it regardless.
EDIT: Unrelated, someone yesterday made a snide comment about the LDS church and "keeping women uneducated". Look, I know the church encourages women to be stay at home mothers, but it also encourages women to be highly educated, and to get their degrees. Not only for their own personal development but in case of family need and they need to seek employment. Argue the merits of being a stay-at-home parent vs working vs balance; that's another debate (which is mostly pointless because it's a personal choice, even in the church). The point is that the church encourages educated women. In fact church leaders point out fairly regularly that higher-education enrollment is considerably higher among women and that women in the church have, on average, a higher education level than the men, including more degree holding women.
Misogyny (pronounced /mɪˈsɒdʒɪni/) is hatred (or contempt) of women or girls. Misogyny comes from Greek misogunia (μισογυνία) from misos (μῖσος, hatred) and gynē (γυνή, woman). It is parallel to misandry—the hatred of men or boys. Misogyny is also comparable with (but not the same as) misanthropy which is the hatred of humanity in general. The prefix miso-, meaning hatred or to hate applies in many other words, such as misandrist, misocapny, misogamy, misarchy and misoxeny.
I'm aware of that, but didn't see how a snide remark about a country could be construed as misogynistic. Unless Australia's entire male population died off since I last went there, anyway. I'm open to new information.
I think what he meant was that he wasn't saying Australia was misogynistic.
Basically. Cat is the regular misandrist and tends to over-analyze when someone says something that deals with women and takes it completely out of context. I'm didn't really delve too deep into what emnmnme said originally but it stands to reason that she's getting very defensive about women's rights in this thread.
Gee, I wonder why? This couldn't possibly be a thread about a law that is so poorly written it could be used to throw a significant portion of the women living in the state of Utah in jail and there are people defending the law in this thread o_O
Kistra on
Animal Crossing: City Folk Lissa in Filmore 3179-9580-0076
Gee, I wonder why? This couldn't possibly be a thread about a law that is so poorly written it could be used to throw a significant portion of the women living in the state of Utah in jail and there are people defending the law in this thread o_O
I don't blame that at all. I just don't like something being taken out of context when it wasn't meant that way (pretty clearly didn't insinuate that misogyny was what I was talking about, just crazy mcfuckers running the government). She has a habit of doing that. Granted my experience with her is from last year, but, well, I doubt it's changed.
bowen on
not a doctor, not a lawyer, examples I use may not be fully researched so don't take out of context plz, don't @ me
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CorehealerThe ApothecaryThe softer edge of the universe.Registered Userregular
I have no problem with criminally penalizing someone who illegally obtains an unlicensed abortion, as long as access to licensed abortions is readily available..
The rest of the proposition is pure silly goosery.
Agreed on the second. For the first, Utah has ONE abortion clinic, and makes abortion illegal except if the mother's life is in danger before 20 weeks. (after that health, rape and incest are allowed). With a 24 hour waiting period for all. I don't really call that ready access.
So in everyones hubub to condemn Utah, no one wanted to clarify the facts here?
Last time I checked there were anywhere from 3-6 clinics in Utah. However, given the overwhelming population of Mormons, as others have pointed out, there isn't as much of a demand for them.
Regardless of that; there isn't a massive difference in "ready access" to clinics in Utah compared to the rest of the country.
It is easy to cherry pick and make it sound bad but if you look at the facts, the availability of clinics in Utah is only marginally worse than the national average.
The law that virtually makes abortion illegal was only just passed and absolutely will not hold up in federal court when it is inevitably challenged. I would also point out that Utah isn't the first, or only, state to pass, or attempt to pass laws like this. Many states have laws that will criminalize abortion the second the supreme court ever says "well, states can choose" (i.e. some douchetard like Palin gets elected and we have the unfortunate timing of the few left leaning judges retiring, and manages to at least partially overturn RvW).
Don't get me wrong. I'm not defending Utah because I think the laws or whatever are right and good. I think it's stupid and the fact that something like that could even pass is idiotic and says a lot about the politics here. Pretty much every time I read the news about new laws or policies in Utah I just have to shake my head at the idiocy of it all. Hey, budget shortfalls? Lets remove education to make up for it! Yeah, brilliant. Lets make an already undereducated society even dumber! That will solve our social ills! So say conservatives these days I suppose. Being educated makes you "elite" and being elite makes you a communist.
Utah does enough that is reprehensible, this is coming from someone living here, who is also Mormon; but if folks want to bash Utah there are enough things to do it on that are based on factual information and not cherry picking information for sensationalized arguments, to do it regardless.
A good point, and I agree with you. Unfortunately, the thread seems to be slipping more in the direction of pointing out people's more ingrained viewpoints of women, miscarriages and abortions aside.
I have no problem with criminally penalizing someone who illegally obtains an unlicensed abortion, as long as access to licensed abortions is readily available..
The rest of the proposition is pure silly goosery.
Agreed on the second. For the first, Utah has ONE abortion clinic, and makes abortion illegal except if the mother's life is in danger before 20 weeks. (after that health, rape and incest are allowed). With a 24 hour waiting period for all. I don't really call that ready access.
So in everyones hubub to condemn Utah, no one wanted to clarify the facts here?
Last time I checked there were anywhere from 3-6 clinics in Utah. However, given the overwhelming population of Mormons, as others have pointed out, there isn't as much of a demand for them.
Regardless of that; there isn't a massive difference in "ready access" to clinics in Utah compared to the rest of the country.
It is easy to cherry pick and make it sound bad but if you look at the facts, the availability of clinics in Utah is only marginally worse than the national average.
The law that virtually makes abortion illegal was only just passed and absolutely will not hold up in federal court when it is inevitably challenged. I would also point out that Utah isn't the first, or only, state to pass, or attempt to pass laws like this. Many states have laws that will criminalize abortion the second the supreme court ever says "well, states can choose" (i.e. some douchetard like Palin gets elected and we have the unfortunate timing of the few left leaning judges retiring, and manages to at least partially overturn RvW).
Don't get me wrong. I'm not defending Utah because I think the laws or whatever are right and good. I think it's stupid and the fact that something like that could even pass is idiotic and says a lot about the politics here. Pretty much every time I read the news about new laws or policies in Utah I just have to shake my head at the idiocy of it all. Hey, budget shortfalls? Lets remove education to make up for it! Yeah, brilliant. Lets make an already undereducated society even dumber! That will solve our social ills! So say conservatives these days I suppose. Being educated makes you "elite" and being elite makes you a communist.
Utah does enough that is reprehensible, this is coming from someone living here, who is also Mormon; but if folks want to bash Utah there are enough things to do it on that are based on factual information and not cherry picking information for sensationalized arguments, to do it regardless.
Did you even read the summary of the law? It very specifically does nothing about legal abortions and doesn't have any clauses about making abortion illegal if national policy changes.
No. What this law does is make having a miscarriage a crime. It then goes and creates a bunch of exceptions. But the base law is that having a miscarriage is a crime. And the exceptions are so poorly worded (other than the exception for intentional abortions under the care of a physician licensed in Utah) that most miscarriages shouldn't be crimes but it really isn't 100% clear.
EDIT: It also criminalizes seeking out illegal abortions. There aren't any penalties in this law for people providing illegal abortions, only the women who get them.
Kistra on
Animal Crossing: City Folk Lissa in Filmore 3179-9580-0076
I have no problem with criminally penalizing someone who illegally obtains an unlicensed abortion, as long as access to licensed abortions is readily available..
The rest of the proposition is pure silly goosery.
Agreed on the second. For the first, Utah has ONE abortion clinic, and makes abortion illegal except if the mother's life is in danger before 20 weeks. (after that health, rape and incest are allowed). With a 24 hour waiting period for all. I don't really call that ready access.
So in everyones hubub to condemn Utah, no one wanted to clarify the facts here?
Last time I checked there were anywhere from 3-6 clinics in Utah. However, given the overwhelming population of Mormons, as others have pointed out, there isn't as much of a demand for them.
Regardless of that; there isn't a massive difference in "ready access" to clinics in Utah compared to the rest of the country.
It is easy to cherry pick and make it sound bad but if you look at the facts, the availability of clinics in Utah is only marginally worse than the national average.
The law that virtually makes abortion illegal was only just passed and absolutely will not hold up in federal court when it is inevitably challenged. I would also point out that Utah isn't the first, or only, state to pass, or attempt to pass laws like this. Many states have laws that will criminalize abortion the second the supreme court ever says "well, states can choose" (i.e. some douchetard like Palin gets elected and we have the unfortunate timing of the few left leaning judges retiring, and manages to at least partially overturn RvW).
Don't get me wrong. I'm not defending Utah because I think the laws or whatever are right and good. I think it's stupid and the fact that something like that could even pass is idiotic and says a lot about the politics here. Pretty much every time I read the news about new laws or policies in Utah I just have to shake my head at the idiocy of it all. Hey, budget shortfalls? Lets remove education to make up for it! Yeah, brilliant. Lets make an already undereducated society even dumber! That will solve our social ills! So say conservatives these days I suppose. Being educated makes you "elite" and being elite makes you a communist.
Utah does enough that is reprehensible, this is coming from someone living here, who is also Mormon; but if folks want to bash Utah there are enough things to do it on that are based on factual information and not cherry picking information for sensationalized arguments, to do it regardless.
Did you even read the summary of the law? It very specifically does nothing about legal abortions and doesn't have any clauses about making abortion illegal if national policy changes.
No. What this law does is make having a miscarriage a crime. It then goes and creates a bunch of exceptions. But the base law is that having a miscarriage is a crime. And the exceptions are so poorly worded (other than the exception for intentional abortions under the care of a physician licensed in Utah) that most miscarriages shouldn't be crimes but it really isn't 100% clear.
Did you even read the post I quoted? It wasn't talking about the miscarriage law; it was talking about the 20week abortion law.
I didn't say anything about this law.
EDIT: Regarding this law; Regardless that some of the reasoning behind criminalizing miscarriages in an attempt to prevent self inflicted, or illegal abortions, making sense; it is pretty clear to me based on what I know of Utah law and culture, being a resident of Utah, that it is pretty obviously a round-about way to further criminalize abortion as a whole and get around federal statue.
Which is dumb. And like so many other anti-abortion laws, it won't hold up in court.
I wish someone would do a study of how much taxpayer money is spent each year in all states combined paying to fight laws passed in states that clearly violate federal laws.
I was thinking about this last night and it makes good sense - our goal should be to lower the number of deformed or brain-damaged babies born.
One niggle - tell me if this parallel stacks up. Mothers would be more willing to bring their children to the doctor's office if there weren't any penalties for child abuse or neglect. An rageaholic Mom might yank an arm out of little Timmy's socket or little Jane might be malnourished and the parent is wary of going to the family physician because they're afraid the doctor will alert authorities. Sorry, Timmy and Jane, our child abuse laws indirectly prevented you from getting care.
I have no problem with criminally penalizing someone who illegally obtains an unlicensed abortion, as long as access to licensed abortions is readily available..
The rest of the proposition is pure silly goosery.
Agreed on the second. For the first, Utah has ONE abortion clinic, and makes abortion illegal except if the mother's life is in danger before 20 weeks. (after that health, rape and incest are allowed). With a 24 hour waiting period for all. I don't really call that ready access.
So in everyones hubub to condemn Utah, no one wanted to clarify the facts here?
Last time I checked there were anywhere from 3-6 clinics in Utah. However, given the overwhelming population of Mormons, as others have pointed out, there isn't as much of a demand for them.
Regardless of that; there isn't a massive difference in "ready access" to clinics in Utah compared to the rest of the country.
It is easy to cherry pick and make it sound bad but if you look at the facts, the availability of clinics in Utah is only marginally worse than the national average.
The law that virtually makes abortion illegal was only just passed and absolutely will not hold up in federal court when it is inevitably challenged. I would also point out that Utah isn't the first, or only, state to pass, or attempt to pass laws like this. Many states have laws that will criminalize abortion the second the supreme court ever says "well, states can choose" (i.e. some douchetard like Palin gets elected and we have the unfortunate timing of the few left leaning judges retiring, and manages to at least partially overturn RvW).
Don't get me wrong. I'm not defending Utah because I think the laws or whatever are right and good. I think it's stupid and the fact that something like that could even pass is idiotic and says a lot about the politics here. Pretty much every time I read the news about new laws or policies in Utah I just have to shake my head at the idiocy of it all. Hey, budget shortfalls? Lets remove education to make up for it! Yeah, brilliant. Lets make an already undereducated society even dumber! That will solve our social ills! So say conservatives these days I suppose. Being educated makes you "elite" and being elite makes you a communist.
Utah does enough that is reprehensible, this is coming from someone living here, who is also Mormon; but if folks want to bash Utah there are enough things to do it on that are based on factual information and not cherry picking information for sensationalized arguments, to do it regardless.
Did you even read the summary of the law? It very specifically does nothing about legal abortions and doesn't have any clauses about making abortion illegal if national policy changes.
No. What this law does is make having a miscarriage a crime. It then goes and creates a bunch of exceptions. But the base law is that having a miscarriage is a crime. And the exceptions are so poorly worded (other than the exception for intentional abortions under the care of a physician licensed in Utah) that most miscarriages shouldn't be crimes but it really isn't 100% clear.
Did you even read the post I quoted? It wasn't talking about the miscarrage law; it was talking about the 20week abortion law.
I didn't say anything about this law.
I think that guy was just misreading the text of the miscarriage law. This miscarriage law says that abortion are legal no matter what if the fetus isn't viable (which occurs after 20 weeks). It is a relatively liberal policy, I don't get why people are making a fuss over Utah's abortion law.
Kistra on
Animal Crossing: City Folk Lissa in Filmore 3179-9580-0076
Did you even read the summary of the law? It very specifically does nothing about legal abortions and doesn't have any clauses about making abortion illegal if national policy changes.
No. What this law does is make having a miscarriage a crime. It then goes and creates a bunch of exceptions. But the base law is that having a miscarriage is a crime. And the exceptions are so poorly worded (other than the exception for intentional abortions under the care of a physician licensed in Utah) that most miscarriages shouldn't be crimes but it really isn't 100% clear.
EDIT: It also criminalizes seeking out illegal abortions. There aren't any penalties in this law for people providing illegal abortions, only the women who get them.
Not quite, it makes the existing conditions for homicides apply to fetuses as well, then applies a bunch of exceptions. Anything that wouldn't be a homicide wouldn't apply to fetuses, which would include pretty much every unintentional miscarriage. The exceptions are intended to handle edge cases, the first set of exceptions removing what would be considered negligent homicide against someone under your care, and the second set removing the severity upgrade for deaths caused during crimes.
In order for the laws to apply, you pretty much have to want to have a miscarriage and deliberately cause it. Still arguably a bad law, and it requires unreasonable scrutiny into the details of miscarriages, but given perfect information it seems reasonably clear and stable.
I have no problem with criminally penalizing someone who illegally obtains an unlicensed abortion, as long as access to licensed abortions is readily available..
The rest of the proposition is pure silly goosery.
Agreed on the second. For the first, Utah has ONE abortion clinic, and makes abortion illegal except if the mother's life is in danger before 20 weeks. (after that health, rape and incest are allowed). With a 24 hour waiting period for all. I don't really call that ready access.
So in everyones hubub to condemn Utah, no one wanted to clarify the facts here?
Last time I checked there were anywhere from 3-6 clinics in Utah. However, given the overwhelming population of Mormons, as others have pointed out, there isn't as much of a demand for them.
Regardless of that; there isn't a massive difference in "ready access" to clinics in Utah compared to the rest of the country.
It is easy to cherry pick and make it sound bad but if you look at the facts, the availability of clinics in Utah is only marginally worse than the national average.
The law that virtually makes abortion illegal was only just passed and absolutely will not hold up in federal court when it is inevitably challenged. I would also point out that Utah isn't the first, or only, state to pass, or attempt to pass laws like this. Many states have laws that will criminalize abortion the second the supreme court ever says "well, states can choose" (i.e. some douchetard like Palin gets elected and we have the unfortunate timing of the few left leaning judges retiring, and manages to at least partially overturn RvW).
Don't get me wrong. I'm not defending Utah because I think the laws or whatever are right and good. I think it's stupid and the fact that something like that could even pass is idiotic and says a lot about the politics here. Pretty much every time I read the news about new laws or policies in Utah I just have to shake my head at the idiocy of it all. Hey, budget shortfalls? Lets remove education to make up for it! Yeah, brilliant. Lets make an already undereducated society even dumber! That will solve our social ills! So say conservatives these days I suppose. Being educated makes you "elite" and being elite makes you a communist.
Utah does enough that is reprehensible, this is coming from someone living here, who is also Mormon; but if folks want to bash Utah there are enough things to do it on that are based on factual information and not cherry picking information for sensationalized arguments, to do it regardless.
Did you even read the summary of the law? It very specifically does nothing about legal abortions and doesn't have any clauses about making abortion illegal if national policy changes.
No. What this law does is make having a miscarriage a crime. It then goes and creates a bunch of exceptions. But the base law is that having a miscarriage is a crime. And the exceptions are so poorly worded (other than the exception for intentional abortions under the care of a physician licensed in Utah) that most miscarriages shouldn't be crimes but it really isn't 100% clear.
Did you even read the post I quoted? It wasn't talking about the miscarrage law; it was talking about the 20week abortion law.
I didn't say anything about this law.
I think that guy was just misreading the text of the miscarriage law. This miscarriage law says that abortion are legal no matter what if the fetus isn't viable (which occurs after 20 weeks). It is a relatively liberal policy, I don't get why people are making a fuss over Utah's abortion law.
Oh.
I think it was a double misreading by him and by me.
I thought he was referring to HB90 which was just passed last year that criminalizes any abortion second trimester or later.
EDIT: Either way I wasn't intending to comment on this specific law with that post; was my point.
EDITEDIT: Changed the link to not got to a crazies site.
I was thinking about this last night and it makes good sense - our goal should be to lower the number of deformed or brain-damaged babies born.
One niggle - tell me if this parallel stacks up. Mothers would be more willing to bring their children to the doctor's office if there weren't any penalties for child abuse or neglect. An rageaholic Mom might yank an arm out of little Timmy's socket or little Jane might be malnourished and the parent is wary of going to the family physician because they're afraid the doctor will alert authorities. Sorry, Timmy and Jane, our child abuse laws indirectly prevented you from getting care.
I see a big difference in that society can take kids away from abusive parents. During pregnancy the only option is to work with the woman who is pregnant.
It is also easier to avoid medical care during pregnancy than for a kid. Most parents, no matter how abusive are going to enroll their kids in school and most schools require vaccines and doctor's notes for things.
Kistra on
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I was thinking about this last night and it makes good sense - our goal should be to lower the number of deformed or brain-damaged babies born.
One niggle - tell me if this parallel stacks up. Mothers would be more willing to bring their children to the doctor's office if there weren't any penalties for child abuse or neglect. An rageaholic Mom might yank an arm out of little Timmy's socket or little Jane might be malnourished and the parent is wary of going to the family physician because they're afraid the doctor will alert authorities. Sorry, Timmy and Jane, our child abuse laws indirectly prevented you from getting care.
I see a big difference in that society can take kids away from abusive parents. During pregnancy the only option is to work with the woman who is pregnant.
It is also easier to avoid medical care during pregnancy than for a kid. Most parents, no matter how abusive are going to enroll their kids in school and most schools require vaccines and doctor's notes for things.
A visibly pregnant woman can't ride a roller coaster because all (I hope) amusement parks have a policy in place. If it were a law, I don't think anyone would notice or fight it.
That's different from hauling and locking them up for life/executing them because they rode shotgun and the airbag killed the fetus -- because they knowingly took the risk of endangering their fetus. If I'm understanding this asinine law right. But that seems a bit different and the law basically allows law enforcement to enforce it on things like what I highlighted.
bowen on
not a doctor, not a lawyer, examples I use may not be fully researched so don't take out of context plz, don't @ me
Similarly, pregnant women aren't served at most bars even though they can be by law.
Which mostly says to me "we don't need a law." Stacking additional consequences on people does not always improve their behavior.
An experiment: Next time your roommate leaves his dishes in the sink, break his fingers and drive his car into a lake. I can only assume that what will follow is him being a much more conscientious roommate, now that he is aware of the consequences.
Similarly, pregnant women aren't served at most bars even though they can be by law.
Which mostly says to me "we don't need a law." Stacking additional consequences on people does not always improve their behavior.
An experiment: Next time your roommate leaves his dishes in the sink, break his fingers and drive his car into a lake. I can only assume that what will follow is him being a much more conscientious roommate, now that he is aware of the consequences.
That's probably a pretty good consequence for a shitty roommate who's a shitbag at stuff like that though.
Not so much for pregnant women who can't help unforeseen circumstances even though there's always that "possibility."
bowen on
not a doctor, not a lawyer, examples I use may not be fully researched so don't take out of context plz, don't @ me
I have no problem with criminally penalizing someone who illegally obtains an unlicensed abortion, as long as access to licensed abortions is readily available..
The rest of the proposition is pure silly goosery.
Agreed on the second. For the first, Utah has ONE abortion clinic, and makes abortion illegal except if the mother's life is in danger before 20 weeks. (after that health, rape and incest are allowed). With a 24 hour waiting period for all. I don't really call that ready access.
So in everyones hubub to condemn Utah, no one wanted to clarify the facts here?
Last time I checked there were anywhere from 3-6 clinics in Utah. However, given the overwhelming population of Mormons, as others have pointed out, there isn't as much of a demand for them.
Regardless of that; there isn't a massive difference in "ready access" to clinics in Utah compared to the rest of the country.
It is easy to cherry pick and make it sound bad but if you look at the facts, the availability of clinics in Utah is only marginally worse than the national average.
The law that virtually makes abortion illegal was only just passed and absolutely will not hold up in federal court when it is inevitably challenged. I would also point out that Utah isn't the first, or only, state to pass, or attempt to pass laws like this. Many states have laws that will criminalize abortion the second the supreme court ever says "well, states can choose" (i.e. some douchetard like Palin gets elected and we have the unfortunate timing of the few left leaning judges retiring, and manages to at least partially overturn RvW).
Don't get me wrong. I'm not defending Utah because I think the laws or whatever are right and good. I think it's stupid and the fact that something like that could even pass is idiotic and says a lot about the politics here. Pretty much every time I read the news about new laws or policies in Utah I just have to shake my head at the idiocy of it all. Hey, budget shortfalls? Lets remove education to make up for it! Yeah, brilliant. Lets make an already undereducated society even dumber! That will solve our social ills! So say conservatives these days I suppose. Being educated makes you "elite" and being elite makes you a communist.
Utah does enough that is reprehensible, this is coming from someone living here, who is also Mormon; but if folks want to bash Utah there are enough things to do it on that are based on factual information and not cherry picking information for sensationalized arguments, to do it regardless.
Did you even read the summary of the law? It very specifically does nothing about legal abortions and doesn't have any clauses about making abortion illegal if national policy changes.
No. What this law does is make having a miscarriage a crime. It then goes and creates a bunch of exceptions. But the base law is that having a miscarriage is a crime. And the exceptions are so poorly worded (other than the exception for intentional abortions under the care of a physician licensed in Utah) that most miscarriages shouldn't be crimes but it really isn't 100% clear.
EDIT: It also criminalizes seeking out illegal abortions. There aren't any penalties in this law for people providing illegal abortions, only the women who get them.
This is the part that amuses me the most. If abortion is exactly equal to murder in their eyes, then they should view the doctor providing it as an accomplise to murder, and thus said doctor should share guilt for the crime, by their logic. And yet, no. Either they're so dumb that element never occured to them, or it really is about punishing women, rather than protecting life. And neither way reflects well on them.
I have no problem with criminally penalizing someone who illegally obtains an unlicensed abortion, as long as access to licensed abortions is readily available..
The rest of the proposition is pure silly goosery.
Agreed on the second. For the first, Utah has ONE abortion clinic, and makes abortion illegal except if the mother's life is in danger before 20 weeks. (after that health, rape and incest are allowed). With a 24 hour waiting period for all. I don't really call that ready access.
So in everyones hubub to condemn Utah, no one wanted to clarify the facts here?
Last time I checked there were anywhere from 3-6 clinics in Utah. However, given the overwhelming population of Mormons, as others have pointed out, there isn't as much of a demand for them.
Regardless of that; there isn't a massive difference in "ready access" to clinics in Utah compared to the rest of the country.
It is easy to cherry pick and make it sound bad but if you look at the facts, the availability of clinics in Utah is only marginally worse than the national average.
The law that virtually makes abortion illegal was only just passed and absolutely will not hold up in federal court when it is inevitably challenged. I would also point out that Utah isn't the first, or only, state to pass, or attempt to pass laws like this. Many states have laws that will criminalize abortion the second the supreme court ever says "well, states can choose" (i.e. some douchetard like Palin gets elected and we have the unfortunate timing of the few left leaning judges retiring, and manages to at least partially overturn RvW).
Don't get me wrong. I'm not defending Utah because I think the laws or whatever are right and good. I think it's stupid and the fact that something like that could even pass is idiotic and says a lot about the politics here. Pretty much every time I read the news about new laws or policies in Utah I just have to shake my head at the idiocy of it all. Hey, budget shortfalls? Lets remove education to make up for it! Yeah, brilliant. Lets make an already undereducated society even dumber! That will solve our social ills! So say conservatives these days I suppose. Being educated makes you "elite" and being elite makes you a communist.
Utah does enough that is reprehensible, this is coming from someone living here, who is also Mormon; but if folks want to bash Utah there are enough things to do it on that are based on factual information and not cherry picking information for sensationalized arguments, to do it regardless.
Did you even read the summary of the law? It very specifically does nothing about legal abortions and doesn't have any clauses about making abortion illegal if national policy changes.
No. What this law does is make having a miscarriage a crime. It then goes and creates a bunch of exceptions. But the base law is that having a miscarriage is a crime. And the exceptions are so poorly worded (other than the exception for intentional abortions under the care of a physician licensed in Utah) that most miscarriages shouldn't be crimes but it really isn't 100% clear.
EDIT: It also criminalizes seeking out illegal abortions. There aren't any penalties in this law for people providing illegal abortions, only the women who get them.
This is the part that amuses me the most. If abortion is exactly equal to murder in their eyes, then they should view the doctor providing it as an accomplise to murder, and thus said doctor should share guilt for the crime, by their logic. And yet, no. Either they're so dumb that element never occured to them, or it really is about punishing women, rather than protecting life. And neither way reflects well on them.
Uh, why wouldn't it affect people providing illegal abortions? Have you actually read the law?
The law is an amendment to the standard homicide law. It takes the existing conditions for murder and applies them to fetuses, then works in some exceptions to handle undesired side effects. Someone providing an illegal abortion would be at the very least an accomplice.
(3) A person is not guilty of criminal homicide of an unborn child if the sole reason
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for the death of the unborn child is that the person:
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(a) refused to consent to:
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(i) medical treatment; or
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(ii) a cesarean section; or
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(b) failed to follow medical advice.
74--(4) A woman is not guilty of criminal homicide of her own unborn child if the death of
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her unborn child:
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(a) is caused by a criminally negligent act of the woman; and
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(b) is not caused by an intentional, knowing, or reckless act of the woman.
Wait, so this is saying you're not guilty if you ignore (or don't get) medical advice / treatment?
There was a case where a woman was giving birth to twins, the doctor suggested that she have a c-section and she refused. As a result one of the twins died. This language is in there so in cases like this one the woman can't be charged.
GJ Utah, make a law the exact opposite way it should work.
Nobody carries a pregnancy well into the waddling watermelon smuggler phase and then suddenly decides they don't want it any more, barring something going catastrophically wrong.
"I'm having this baby to squeeze more child support out of my recently divorced husband! Oh wait, he just died. To the abortion clinic!"
*waddles away*
Ah, I can always count on the emmnmnmnemeneme show. Run into a thread, say something wall-eyed-stupid with a thin dusting of misogyny on top, then spend three pages backtracking and making snide comments about how you were joking and your sense of humour is just too sophisticated for the board. And you've done it twice in this thread! Must have eaten your weeties this morning!
:arrow:
How the fuck are you too stupid to get the joke? Sarah Palin would be able to get that it's a joke and that emnmnme doesn't agree with her, and she doesn't even qualify as sentient.
Nobody carries a pregnancy well into the waddling watermelon smuggler phase and then suddenly decides they don't want it any more, barring something going catastrophically wrong.
"I'm having this baby to squeeze more child support out of my recently divorced husband! Oh wait, he just died. To the abortion clinic!"
*waddles away*
Ah, I can always count on the emmnmnmnemeneme show. Run into a thread, say something wall-eyed-stupid with a thin dusting of misogyny on top, then spend three pages backtracking and making snide comments about how you were joking and your sense of humour is just too sophisticated for the board. And you've done it twice in this thread! Must have eaten your weeties this morning!
:arrow:
How the fuck are you too stupid to get the joke? Sarah Palin would be able to get that it's a joke and that emnmnme doesn't agree with her, and she doesn't even qualify as sentient.
The Cat is a feminist but she's not some bra-burning, hairy armpitted hippie caricature. Her brand of feminism can't be mocked because it's grounded in statistics and world-awareness. Feminism is serious business and she cares so much about women's rights, I'll bet it dampens her sarcast-o-meter a bit, meaning she takes jabs a little more personally.
She's allowed to make and allowed to have emotional responses to something she's vehemently passionate about, even if most of her views/knowledge are based in statistics.
She's also guilty of it from time to time, much like all of us are.
bowen on
not a doctor, not a lawyer, examples I use may not be fully researched so don't take out of context plz, don't @ me
Posts
Eh, Utah seems pretty brazen about it. Certainly from a religious standpoint.
Yeah, not really. You can't go off on the Mormons without also going off on Evangelical establishment states, like the deep south.
Oh, for sure, but at least in the South it's much more diffuse, and there's several different factions of religious sectarianism. The State of Utah is like 100% concentrated Mormon.
I think the big difference is that in the South, people just assume everyone is Evangelical, whereas Utah actively legislates to enforce it.
Ah, I can always count on the emmnmnmnemeneme show. Run into a thread, say something wall-eyed-stupid with a thin dusting of misogyny on top, then spend three pages backtracking and making snide comments about how you were joking and your sense of humour is just too sophisticated for the board. And you've done it twice in this thread! Must have eaten your weeties this morning!
:arrow:
Actually it's more like 70%, according to wikipedia. Not 100%, but still a large majority. While here in the 'Deep South', Evangelicals are diffused by many much less radical groups, both religious and otherwise.
I'm not saying there aren't parts of the South that deserve tactical nukes, but they're more scattered and less powerful.
Except for Florida. Florida (mostly) doesn't count as part of the South.
I understand the problems that occur with illegal surgeries.
How many women come into your ER in a given month after having an unlicensed surgical abortion?
How many come in having/threatening/had a miscarriage in a month?
My position is that being able to punish the women that seek out illegal unlicensed surgical abortions with life in prison is not a reasonable response. And the size of the problem is small enough that it doesn't warrant making the default position of the law be that having a miscarriage is illegal until proven otherwise.
It was more a gibe at the crazy fucking lunatic policies, like, oh I don't know, "banning" adult material and filtering the internet.
Not "olol next Australia is gonna ban miscarriages 'cause they hate women" so please don't take my comment for some misogynistic comment about your country and their policies when there wasn't really one there to begin with.
Heh, my snide is nothing against your snark. If I study hard enough, maybe my wall-eyed stupid will match your half-baked misandry some day.
Oh, those mean ol' male mayors! A female politician would never propose such outrageous policies whereas a man licks his lips at the prospect of protecting damsels from themselves.
Well, you know women drivers. (D'oh, there goes my dusting of misogyny again!)
Keep delivering your sisters from the shackles of male domination, Cat, one snarky post at a time.
Misogynistic?
I'm aware of that, but didn't see how a snide remark about a country could be construed as misogynistic. Unless Australia's entire male population died off since I last went there, anyway. I'm open to new information.
I think what he meant was that he wasn't saying Australia was misogynistic.
A good question. A better country to refer to as misogynistic would be Saudi Arabia, not Australia.
Well, yeah, maybe, but it certainly didn't end up looking like that.
Forgive me - pedant.
Basically. Cat is the regular misandrist and tends to over-analyze when someone says something that deals with women and takes it completely out of context. I'm didn't really delve too deep into what emnmnme said originally but it stands to reason that she's getting very defensive about women's rights in this thread.
In my case I made some off the wall comment about some political crazies going on with weird ass laws and she had assumed (I'm guessing) that I was inferring that Australia is full of misogynists and they're going to inact some anti-miscarriage laws in the near future and correlating that particular crazy with Utah.
Had I been referring to actual misogyny there, I would've definitely chosen a better country, but I wasn't, just pointing out that crazies are crazy, and they're all over the place. As well as making a gibe at Australia being a fucking frightful country to begin with. Couple that with Cat being from Australia and a woman, and I guess I could see the concern there.
So in everyones hubub to condemn Utah, no one wanted to clarify the facts here?
Last time I checked there were anywhere from 3-6 clinics in Utah. However, given the overwhelming population of Mormons, as others have pointed out, there isn't as much of a demand for them.
Regardless of that; there isn't a massive difference in "ready access" to clinics in Utah compared to the rest of the country.
It is easy to cherry pick and make it sound bad but if you look at the facts, the availability of clinics in Utah is only marginally worse than the national average.
The law that virtually makes abortion illegal was only just passed and absolutely will not hold up in federal court when it is inevitably challenged. I would also point out that Utah isn't the first, or only, state to pass, or attempt to pass laws like this. Many states have laws that will criminalize abortion the second the supreme court ever says "well, states can choose" (i.e. some douchetard like Palin gets elected and we have the unfortunate timing of the few left leaning judges retiring, and manages to at least partially overturn RvW).
Don't get me wrong. I'm not defending Utah because I think the laws or whatever are right and good. I think it's stupid and the fact that something like that could even pass is idiotic and says a lot about the politics here. Pretty much every time I read the news about new laws or policies in Utah I just have to shake my head at the idiocy of it all. Hey, budget shortfalls? Lets remove education to make up for it! Yeah, brilliant. Lets make an already undereducated society even dumber! That will solve our social ills! So say conservatives these days I suppose. Being educated makes you "elite" and being elite makes you a communist.
Utah does enough that is reprehensible, this is coming from someone living here, who is also Mormon; but if folks want to bash Utah there are enough things to do it on that are based on factual information and not cherry picking information for sensationalized arguments, to do it regardless.
EDIT: Unrelated, someone yesterday made a snide comment about the LDS church and "keeping women uneducated". Look, I know the church encourages women to be stay at home mothers, but it also encourages women to be highly educated, and to get their degrees. Not only for their own personal development but in case of family need and they need to seek employment. Argue the merits of being a stay-at-home parent vs working vs balance; that's another debate (which is mostly pointless because it's a personal choice, even in the church). The point is that the church encourages educated women. In fact church leaders point out fairly regularly that higher-education enrollment is considerably higher among women and that women in the church have, on average, a higher education level than the men, including more degree holding women.
Origin: Galedrid - Nintendo: Galedrid/3222-6858-1045
Blizzard: Galedrid#1367 - FFXIV: Galedrid Kingshand
Gee, I wonder why? This couldn't possibly be a thread about a law that is so poorly written it could be used to throw a significant portion of the women living in the state of Utah in jail and there are people defending the law in this thread o_O
I don't blame that at all. I just don't like something being taken out of context when it wasn't meant that way (pretty clearly didn't insinuate that misogyny was what I was talking about, just crazy mcfuckers running the government). She has a habit of doing that. Granted my experience with her is from last year, but, well, I doubt it's changed.
A good point, and I agree with you. Unfortunately, the thread seems to be slipping more in the direction of pointing out people's more ingrained viewpoints of women, miscarriages and abortions aside.
None probably, regardless of state. Challenges for laws like these always come from national independent groups; not individuals.
It'll be challenged, no doubt about it; and there is no basis in federal law that gives it any chance of holding.
Origin: Galedrid - Nintendo: Galedrid/3222-6858-1045
Blizzard: Galedrid#1367 - FFXIV: Galedrid Kingshand
Did you even read the summary of the law? It very specifically does nothing about legal abortions and doesn't have any clauses about making abortion illegal if national policy changes.
No. What this law does is make having a miscarriage a crime. It then goes and creates a bunch of exceptions. But the base law is that having a miscarriage is a crime. And the exceptions are so poorly worded (other than the exception for intentional abortions under the care of a physician licensed in Utah) that most miscarriages shouldn't be crimes but it really isn't 100% clear.
EDIT: It also criminalizes seeking out illegal abortions. There aren't any penalties in this law for people providing illegal abortions, only the women who get them.
Did you even read the post I quoted? It wasn't talking about the miscarriage law; it was talking about the 20week abortion law.
I didn't say anything about this law.
EDIT: Regarding this law; Regardless that some of the reasoning behind criminalizing miscarriages in an attempt to prevent self inflicted, or illegal abortions, making sense; it is pretty clear to me based on what I know of Utah law and culture, being a resident of Utah, that it is pretty obviously a round-about way to further criminalize abortion as a whole and get around federal statue.
Which is dumb. And like so many other anti-abortion laws, it won't hold up in court.
I wish someone would do a study of how much taxpayer money is spent each year in all states combined paying to fight laws passed in states that clearly violate federal laws.
Origin: Galedrid - Nintendo: Galedrid/3222-6858-1045
Blizzard: Galedrid#1367 - FFXIV: Galedrid Kingshand
I was thinking about this last night and it makes good sense - our goal should be to lower the number of deformed or brain-damaged babies born.
One niggle - tell me if this parallel stacks up. Mothers would be more willing to bring their children to the doctor's office if there weren't any penalties for child abuse or neglect. An rageaholic Mom might yank an arm out of little Timmy's socket or little Jane might be malnourished and the parent is wary of going to the family physician because they're afraid the doctor will alert authorities. Sorry, Timmy and Jane, our child abuse laws indirectly prevented you from getting care.
I think that guy was just misreading the text of the miscarriage law. This miscarriage law says that abortion are legal no matter what if the fetus isn't viable (which occurs after 20 weeks). It is a relatively liberal policy, I don't get why people are making a fuss over Utah's abortion law.
Not quite, it makes the existing conditions for homicides apply to fetuses as well, then applies a bunch of exceptions. Anything that wouldn't be a homicide wouldn't apply to fetuses, which would include pretty much every unintentional miscarriage. The exceptions are intended to handle edge cases, the first set of exceptions removing what would be considered negligent homicide against someone under your care, and the second set removing the severity upgrade for deaths caused during crimes.
In order for the laws to apply, you pretty much have to want to have a miscarriage and deliberately cause it. Still arguably a bad law, and it requires unreasonable scrutiny into the details of miscarriages, but given perfect information it seems reasonably clear and stable.
Oh.
I think it was a double misreading by him and by me.
I thought he was referring to HB90 which was just passed last year that criminalizes any abortion second trimester or later.
EDIT: Either way I wasn't intending to comment on this specific law with that post; was my point.
EDITEDIT: Changed the link to not got to a crazies site.
Origin: Galedrid - Nintendo: Galedrid/3222-6858-1045
Blizzard: Galedrid#1367 - FFXIV: Galedrid Kingshand
I see a big difference in that society can take kids away from abusive parents. During pregnancy the only option is to work with the woman who is pregnant.
It is also easier to avoid medical care during pregnancy than for a kid. Most parents, no matter how abusive are going to enroll their kids in school and most schools require vaccines and doctor's notes for things.
A visibly pregnant woman can't ride a roller coaster because all (I hope) amusement parks have a policy in place. If it were a law, I don't think anyone would notice or fight it.
Which mostly says to me "we don't need a law." Stacking additional consequences on people does not always improve their behavior.
An experiment: Next time your roommate leaves his dishes in the sink, break his fingers and drive his car into a lake. I can only assume that what will follow is him being a much more conscientious roommate, now that he is aware of the consequences.
That's probably a pretty good consequence for a shitty roommate who's a shitbag at stuff like that though.
Not so much for pregnant women who can't help unforeseen circumstances even though there's always that "possibility."
This is the part that amuses me the most. If abortion is exactly equal to murder in their eyes, then they should view the doctor providing it as an accomplise to murder, and thus said doctor should share guilt for the crime, by their logic. And yet, no. Either they're so dumb that element never occured to them, or it really is about punishing women, rather than protecting life. And neither way reflects well on them.
Uh, why wouldn't it affect people providing illegal abortions? Have you actually read the law?
The law is an amendment to the standard homicide law. It takes the existing conditions for murder and applies them to fetuses, then works in some exceptions to handle undesired side effects. Someone providing an illegal abortion would be at the very least an accomplice.
GJ Utah, make a law the exact opposite way it should work.
How the fuck are you too stupid to get the joke? Sarah Palin would be able to get that it's a joke and that emnmnme doesn't agree with her, and she doesn't even qualify as sentient.
The Cat is a feminist but she's not some bra-burning, hairy armpitted hippie caricature. Her brand of feminism can't be mocked because it's grounded in statistics and world-awareness. Feminism is serious business and she cares so much about women's rights, I'll bet it dampens her sarcast-o-meter a bit, meaning she takes jabs a little more personally.
Either that, or she's jealous of my penis.
She's also guilty of it from time to time, much like all of us are.
GET YOUR COLLECTIVE ACT TOGETHER