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[DnD 4E Discussion] ITT we all get behind gnomes.

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Posts

  • MikeMcSomethingMikeMcSomething Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    Pinfeldorf wrote: »
    Yes buying more than one thing that is meant to be consumed is just fucking mind-blowingly impossible.

    RPRP112-m.jpg

    I know a Mike McSomething in Arizona that smokes plastic cigarettes. Do you smoke plastic cigarettes, too? Because you guys could hang out and smoke plastic cigarettes together and talk about how your names are almost the same.

    What part of AZ?

  • ArkadyArkady Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    So I was over at my friend's house for our Thursday game, flipping through phb3 deciding how to go about making a monk, as I would like to replace my relatively boring summoner wizard with a monk once this module is over. While there, I came to the conclusion that monks are actually kind of broken.

    Stone fist flurry of blows: does 3+str mod damage to a target. +2h/4p/6e if you choose to hit someone besides the guy you hit with the triggering attack, but meh, let's assume you hit the same guy because you're a striker.

    Ki weapon: Can be placed on any weapon. Property: Once per turn your flurry of blows deals two additional points of damage. Notice the lack of the word, "item." Dual wield 2 of these.

    Mighty Strikes Ki Focus: Property" You do 1 additional point of damage with flurry of blows, again without the item descriptor.

    Club feat (I forget the name :P): Deal 2 additional damage with flurry of blows while wielding a club.

    All of this stuff is easily gotten during heroic tier, as, since the crap you need off of ki weapon is a property, and you'll probably never use them to hit anything, you can dual wield +1 ki clubs (or a club and spear, or a club and dagger/shuriken if you are inclined to take advantage of a heroic or paragon feat to give your flurry some range). The only thing you need to stay on top of is your focus.

    So, easily gotten by level 5 or 6, you can do base 3 + 4 str mod, + 5 from items, +2 from feats, for a total of 14 damage on flurry of blows. Compared to a rogue, whose average sneak attack damage with 1 feat is 9. But wait, there's more!

    At paragon you can take 1 of 2 str based paragon paths, doesn't matter which, both add 2 damage. You also now hit 2 targets with flurry of blows, which is real easy to do with the shuriken feat that opens up at this tier and lets you flurry a guy up to 5 squares away if wielding a shuriken or dagger. If you have a single target you can take brutal flurry or some shit that adds another 2p/4e damage if you opt to only hit a single target. This is the end of damage buffs that I am aware of, but let's add it up at 30, at which point your flurry is a burst 1.

    base 3, +8 str, + 5 items, +2 feat, +2 class = Baseline of 20. Which is slightly behind the rogues average of 22.5.

    Except this ignores that flurry is a burst 1 at epic. That you can hit 1 guy up to 5 squares off in guam which guarantees you 2 hits. That any dudes you hit that weren't the target of the triggering power take an additional 6 damage. And even if there is just 1 guy, you can forego all this crap to get you up to 24, which now in fact beats sneak attack. To say nothing of the fact that outside of a brutal scoundrel bugbear, your powers will be doing better dice worth of damage than a rogue would.

    This also all ignores that I forgot to check and see if flurry of blows was an implement power, which would mean another +6 damage if it is (though I suspect it isn't since it lacks an attack roll).

    In summary; Finally! An implement striker with damage worth a damn.

    untitled-1.jpg
    LoL: failboattootoot
  • Mr_RoseMr_Rose Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    So, easily gotten by level 5 or 6, you can do base 3 + 4 str mod, + 5 from items, +2 from feats, for a total of 14 damage on flurry of blows. Compared to a rogue, whose average sneak attack damage with 1 feat is 9. But wait, there's more!
    Pretty sure this is wrong with the new errata; you can't get the same untyped bonus twice, so the two Ki-clubs can't be combined like that.

    ...because dragons are AWESOME! That's why.
    DropBox invite link - get 250MB extra free.
  • ArkadyArkady Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    Mr_Rose wrote: »
    So, easily gotten by level 5 or 6, you can do base 3 + 4 str mod, + 5 from items, +2 from feats, for a total of 14 damage on flurry of blows. Compared to a rogue, whose average sneak attack damage with 1 feat is 9. But wait, there's more!
    Pretty sure this is wrong with the new errata; you can't get the same untyped bonus twice, so the two Ki-clubs can't be combined like that.

    Good errata, but that, at worst knocks 3 points off, which still leaves you ahead of rogues at heroic and only slightly behind on single target at epic.

    untitled-1.jpg
    LoL: failboattootoot
  • Mr_RoseMr_Rose Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    Arkady wrote: »
    Mr_Rose wrote: »
    So, easily gotten by level 5 or 6, you can do base 3 + 4 str mod, + 5 from items, +2 from feats, for a total of 14 damage on flurry of blows. Compared to a rogue, whose average sneak attack damage with 1 feat is 9. But wait, there's more!
    Pretty sure this is wrong with the new errata; you can't get the same untyped bonus twice, so the two Ki-clubs can't be combined like that.

    Good errata, but that, at worst knocks 3 points off, which still leaves you ahead of rogues at heroic and only slightly behind on single target at epic.

    Eh? I wasn't saying your point was destroyed by the errata, just that one little bit was off.
    Also, I'm not seeing the problem with being in Rogue-territory for damage levels at all. Plus you still have to find (or make) all the relevant bits and take a couple of feats to do it too, which I'm sure some people will consider to be a waste. Can't wait to see the new Monk stuff turn up in CB though; I kinda want to play a monk somewhere.

    Also, has anyone heard anything about Assassin Hybrid stuffs yet?

    ...because dragons are AWESOME! That's why.
    DropBox invite link - get 250MB extra free.
  • OptimusZedOptimusZed Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    I'm not exactly sure how "niche build that requires a good amount of character investment compares well with generic rogue" is broken for a striker.

    We're reading Rifts. You should too. You know you want to. On Hiatus!

    Any gamers in the Danville, PA area? PM me if you're interested in some tabletop gaming.
  • MikeMcSomethingMikeMcSomething Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    You wouldn't be comparing a pimped out Flurry of Blows to raw Backstabber SA damage. In addition to Weapon Talent and Nimble Blade, Mid-heroic Rogue would add either his STR mod to SA's from Brutal Scoundrel or his CHA mod from using a Footpad's Friend. So the Monk's 8 + secondary stat on FoB Is compared to the Rogue's 9 + secondary stat on SA.

    This is before you factor in powers:

    Rogue also has [W] + Stat + Off Stat at-wills, which the monk doesn't have unless he uses Dancing Cobra and eats an OA.

    Not saying the Rogue is necessarily always better than the monk (He probably is, the monk is kinda meh and they are both behind alot of the top striker builds) but your original +striker damage comparison was a bit off.

  • streeverstreever Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    Infidel wrote: »
    Drink your Pepsi and have a fit over a non-issue, I'm not gonna stop ya anymore.

    I asked whether the rules supported something. You said some stuff that wasn't at all related to the rules, and now are trying to indicate that I'm having a fit.

    If you didn't want to have this discussion, you didn't have to pretend you knew how consumables worked.

    You throwing a tant?

    (in all seriousness, you worded something very poorly, and made a silly assumption that a character could consume an infinite number of items in one turn as part of a free action. While that may even bizarrely be RAW, no sane DM or player would think it was legit!)

    --

    Can we all agree to ban the "what if people are jerks" defense for rules discussions? It's neither productive nor helpful.

    Look, if something seems game-breakingly awesome, it's probably likely to be errated or not work the way you are thinking. Why start a hot & heavy e-debate over a rule that you know you are interpreting in a silly goose way?

    Point out a broken rule, but don't sit there and defend your interpretation as the only way to play, especially when it's counter-intuitive!

  • MikeMcSomethingMikeMcSomething Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    Did you understand my first post on the topic?

  • streeverstreever Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    Not originally, no, because it consisted of quoting two people. I only understood you when you lost your cool and got all frenzied.

    If you want people to understand you and respond, you can try things like putting your thoughts into words. I find that works well.

    Are you trying for the rude & abrasive shtick?

    I kind of imagine an unpleasantly smelly man, sitting in a room, eschewing all contact with society because "no one understands me!"

  • AbbalahAbbalah Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    Mannnn.

    My dnd group fell apart mid-campaign due to social bullshit.

    And I'm not likely to find other friends interested in playing, and would rather not play with people I don't already know.

    So now I have a shitton of awesome planned material in which I invested a pretty considerable amount of time sitting around which will probably never get used.

    And I keep reading dnd stuff and wanting to write more but it seems like a bit of a pointless endeavor given the circumstances.

    Sad DM is sad

  • MikeMcSomethingMikeMcSomething Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    Abbalah wrote: »
    Mannnn.

    My dnd group fell apart mid-campaign due to social bullshit.

    And I'm not likely to find other friends interested in playing, and would rather not play with people I don't already know.

    So now I have a shitton of awesome planned material in which I invested a pretty considerable amount of time sitting around which will probably never get used.

    And I keep reading dnd stuff and wanting to write more but it seems like a bit of a pointless endeavor given the circumstances.

    Sad DM is sad

    Our gaming store has a huge posting board where people that are looking for players leave some info about the campaign and their contact info, they usually get a really good response.

  • MikeMcSomethingMikeMcSomething Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    Did you understand my first post on the topic?
    streever wrote: »
    Not originally, no, because it consisted of quoting two people. I only understood you when you lost your cool and got all frenzied.

    If you want people to understand you and respond, you can try things like putting your thoughts into words. I find that works well.

    Are you trying for the rude & abrasive shtick?

    I kind of imagine an unpleasantly smelly man, sitting in a room, eschewing all contact with society because "no one understands me!"

    So that's a pretty firm "No" right?

  • streeverstreever Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    ITT: Mike McSomething submits quotes instead of writing.
    Explains,
    "I have the autisms"

  • AegeriAegeri Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    This really isn't going anywhere, I don't think there is any point here to prove anymore.

  • tastydonutstastydonuts Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    Aegeri wrote: »
    This really isn't going anywhere, I don't think there is any point here to prove anymore.

    I only read this thread in the hope that the boobs mentioned in the thread title would crop up. But not a one. Not even marilith sideboob.

    Since you guys have utterly disappointed me, I will supply this thread with boobs of my own:
    Spoiler:

    edit: OT Question - Are there any detailed rules/rulings regarding vertical component of flight? Specifically the cost in squares of flying up.

    “I don't know the key to success, but the key to failure is trying to please everyone.”
    ― Bill Cosby
  • streeverstreever Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    Aegeri wrote: »
    This really isn't going anywhere, I don't think there is any point here to prove anymore.

    I only read this thread in the hope that the boobs mentioned in the thread title would crop up. But not a one. Not even marilith sideboob.

    Since you guys have utterly disappointed me, I will supply this thread with boobs of my own:
    Spoiler:

    Beautiful

  • OptimusZedOptimusZed Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    edit: OT Question - Are there any detailed rules/rulings regarding vertical component of flight? Specifically the cost in squares of flying up.
    Moving vertically with a movement speed that allows it is just like moving horizontally. Each square up costs one square of movement, but you can move diagonally to move in the horizontal plane at the same time.

    We're reading Rifts. You should too. You know you want to. On Hiatus!

    Any gamers in the Danville, PA area? PM me if you're interested in some tabletop gaming.
  • MaticoreMaticore Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    Those are Boobies, not Boobs.

    A boob isn't an animal, observe:
    Spoiler:

    That is a boob.

  • AegeriAegeri Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    edit: OT Question - Are there any detailed rules/rulings regarding vertical component of flight? Specifically the cost in squares of flying up.

    It's just like any other kind of movement, 1 square to fly up etc as Optimus pointed out. You can also fly "diagonally" up, moving both horizontally and vertically at the same time. This makes flying creatures incredibly mobile.

  • tastydonutstastydonuts Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    Aegeri wrote: »
    edit: OT Question - Are there any detailed rules/rulings regarding vertical component of flight? Specifically the cost in squares of flying up.

    It's just like any other kind of movement, 1 square to fly up etc as Optimus pointed out. You can also fly "diagonally" up, moving both horizontally and vertically at the same time. This makes flying creatures incredibly mobile.

    Yea, that's how I've been doing it (and with a square cost of 0 for falling). But I was hoping for an answer that let me infinitely move a flying creature upwards. THANKS GUYS.

    edit: looks like it's arbitrary vertical teleportation~ (don't ask).

    “I don't know the key to success, but the key to failure is trying to please everyone.”
    ― Bill Cosby
  • streeverstreever Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    Aegeri wrote: »
    edit: OT Question - Are there any detailed rules/rulings regarding vertical component of flight? Specifically the cost in squares of flying up.

    It's just like any other kind of movement, 1 square to fly up etc as Optimus pointed out. You can also fly "diagonally" up, moving both horizontally and vertically at the same time. This makes flying creatures incredibly mobile.

    Yea, that's how I've been doing it (and with a square cost of 0 for falling). But I was hoping for an answer that let me infinitely move a flying creature upwards. THANKS GUYS.

    edit: looks like it's arbitrary vertical teleportation~ (don't ask).

    Does... does this mean we all die? :(

  • tastydonutstastydonuts Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    streever wrote: »
    Does... does this mean we all die? :(
    nah. it mostly means a failure to convert an encounter storyboard into mechanics cleanly.

    “I don't know the key to success, but the key to failure is trying to please everyone.”
    ― Bill Cosby
  • streeverstreever Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    If you want the guy to be able to go vertically up a great deal, so much that it exceeds his move speed, I think you can give him a move action (soar? something that doesn't sound lame) which lets him shoot straight up.

    Actually wow that would be an awesome power for a dragon that could make him quite challenging to kill without luring him into a close quarters area.

    Maybe re-create the way birds soar straight up, "you must move forward one square, and lose one square of altitude, first"

  • tastydonutstastydonuts Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    streever wrote: »
    If you want the guy to be able to go vertically up a great deal, so much that it exceeds his move speed, I think you can give him a move action (soar? something that doesn't sound lame) which lets him shoot straight up.

    Actually wow that would be an awesome power for a dragon that could make him quite challenging to kill without luring him into a close quarters area.

    Maybe re-create the way birds soar straight up, "you must move forward one square, and lose one square of altitude, first"

    looks like it's arbitrary vertical teleportation~

    ;p

    edit: and yes, it totally does pop a close burst 5 prone attack vs fort.

    edit2: I guess I should have spoilered that or something. ah well. you now know that there's a 50% chance that something you fight will do that. better stay away from wide open areas with high and/or non existent ceilings

    “I don't know the key to success, but the key to failure is trying to please everyone.”
    ― Bill Cosby
  • streeverstreever Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    Yes but it re-creates that awesome moment when a bird swoops down, and then soars straight up into the air!!!!!

    That would be a cool attack actually: swoop down, hit a guy, then soar straight up and away.

  • HachfaceHachface Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    Aegeri wrote: »
    edit: OT Question - Are there any detailed rules/rulings regarding vertical component of flight? Specifically the cost in squares of flying up.

    It's just like any other kind of movement, 1 square to fly up etc as Optimus pointed out. You can also fly "diagonally" up, moving both horizontally and vertically at the same time. This makes flying creatures incredibly mobile.

    Oh god for a moment there this post made me consider the effects of a hex grid on 3d movement. My brains.

  • HachfaceHachface Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    streever wrote: »
    Yes but it re-creates that awesome moment when a bird swoops down, and then soars straight up into the air!!!!!

    That would be a cool attack actually: swoop down, hit a guy, then soar straight up and away.

    Isn't this just a flyby attack (standard action) followed by a move action?

  • AegeriAegeri Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    Hachface wrote: »
    streever wrote: »
    Yes but it re-creates that awesome moment when a bird swoops down, and then soars straight up into the air!!!!!

    That would be a cool attack actually: swoop down, hit a guy, then soar straight up and away.

    Isn't this just a flyby attack (standard action) followed by a move action?

    Yeah, there are already a few creatures that can do these flyby attacks.

  • tastydonutstastydonuts Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    Aegeri wrote: »
    Hachface wrote: »
    streever wrote: »
    Yes but it re-creates that awesome moment when a bird swoops down, and then soars straight up into the air!!!!!

    That would be a cool attack actually: swoop down, hit a guy, then soar straight up and away.

    Isn't this just a flyby attack (standard action) followed by a move action?

    Yeah, there are already a few creatures that can do these flyby attacks.

    yeah, but the flight component I intend to use is easily 8-10 squares vert.

    “I don't know the key to success, but the key to failure is trying to please everyone.”
    ― Bill Cosby
  • streeverstreever Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    Right, but donuts wants the monster to be able to move a near arbitrary number of vertical spaces straight up, so it's actually one move, kind of like a charge. Or, just a move action that lets it exceed it's move rate, by being a "Move: On a straight vertical line the monster moves 12 squares"

  • HachfaceHachface Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    Aegeri wrote: »
    Hachface wrote: »
    streever wrote: »
    Yes but it re-creates that awesome moment when a bird swoops down, and then soars straight up into the air!!!!!

    That would be a cool attack actually: swoop down, hit a guy, then soar straight up and away.

    Isn't this just a flyby attack (standard action) followed by a move action?

    Yeah, there are already a few creatures that can do these flyby attacks.

    yeah, but the flight component I intend to use is easily 8-10 squares vert.

    A wyvern's fly speed is 8. He can already swoop down as a flyby attack and then move 8 vertically. Hell, he can move 10 vertically if he "runs."

  • HachfaceHachface Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    streever wrote: »
    Right, but donuts wants the monster to be able to move a near arbitrary number of vertical spaces straight up, so it's actually one move, kind of like a charge.

    A standard flyback attack will accomplish this by itself as long as you give it a sufficiently absurd speed. 20 ought to do it.

  • streeverstreever Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    I think the point though is that he doesn't want it to have an absurd speed :) He wants it to have a normal speed but be able to go in a straight vertical line a greater distance. (My head is going to asplode if this continues!)

    I'm familiar with flybys/etc, but this is a different case. One can assume if he was comfortable with giving it a speed of 20 he would simply do so!

  • HachfaceHachface Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    Seriously though, would 3d movement with a hex grid be as nightmarish as I'm imagining?
    Because I do not think you can form a platonic solid from hexagons.

    There was talk on rpg.net that an upcoming Dragon article would give rules for 4e on a hex grid but the existence of 3d movement alone makes me doubt that.

  • tastydonutstastydonuts Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    streever wrote: »
    I think the point though is that he doesn't want it to have an absurd speed :) He wants it to have a normal speed but be able to go in a straight vertical line a greater distance. (My head is going to asplode if this continues!)

    I'm familiar with flybys/etc, but this is a different case. One can assume if he was comfortable with giving it a speed of 20 he would simply do so!

    yep. I actually have done that previously with both horiz and vert movement to compensate but it's sloppy.

    ah well.

    edit: if anything other than squares, 4E should implement octal movement, since it already pretty much does that anyway. but an octal gri would be horrible. so... yea.

    “I don't know the key to success, but the key to failure is trying to please everyone.”
    ― Bill Cosby
  • streeverstreever Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    Hachface wrote: »
    Seriously though, would 3d movement with a hex grid be as nightmarish as I'm imagining?
    Because I do not think you can form a platonic solid from hexagons.

    There was talk on rpg.net that an upcoming Dragon article would give rules for 4e on a hex grid but the existence of 3d movement alone makes me doubt that.

    Yea, it sounds horribly painful :)

  • PinfeldorfPinfeldorf Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    Pinfeldorf wrote: »
    Yes buying more than one thing that is meant to be consumed is just fucking mind-blowingly impossible.

    RPRP112-m.jpg

    I know a Mike McSomething in Arizona that smokes plastic cigarettes. Do you smoke plastic cigarettes, too? Because you guys could hang out and smoke plastic cigarettes together and talk about how your names are almost the same.

    What part of AZ?

    Tucson, foothills area.

    1133965-1.png?1297145727
  • RiusRius Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    I need some suggestions, folks.

    One of my players would like some options for his Dragonborn Warlord that are RP flavored in terms of powers. He uses a whip, and it's a weapon type preferred by his clan, and he'd like to be able to do whip-like things like slide/pull targets, knock them prone, perhaps restrain or blind them with Daily powers. I think the power level of the MC Whip power-swap encounter and daily powers are pretty decent, but it seems to me that if you have to spend a feat to swap in a power, that power should be pretty awesome.

    What are some ways I can give him options that will make his character more flavorful/unique? I'm wary of creating new powers, which is what he's talking about doing.

  • OptimusZedOptimusZed Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    Whip is a flail weapon. Fighters have a ton of powers that directly reference flails. There's one in MP2 at level 1 that grabs an enemy and gives them a big attack penalty while they're grabbed.

    I would have him multiclass for that stuff, or use them as inspiration.

    We're reading Rifts. You should too. You know you want to. On Hiatus!

    Any gamers in the Danville, PA area? PM me if you're interested in some tabletop gaming.
This discussion has been closed.