In any case, now I need to be getting back to work and not spending so much time in this thread. Maybe we can get a better discussion going sometime; so far it's been "different play styles hurf durf" and "objection which has nothing to do with the topic hurf durf" which is not really fun or interesting or revelatory.
edit: I use seal of light because (a) I don't have mana issues and (b) the extra healing is very nice in most encounters [whether it's because of our strats or the nature of the fight, that's just the way it is]. You missed the point; I don't need 5% spell power or 5% reduced mana but in my situation the 5% spell power is much more useful.
1500 is not trivial for you, but it is for me. Different playstyles, once again.
edit edit: I had a friend who would say "if you're not at 0 mana at the end of a fight, you didn't do your job." While I definitely don't 100% agree with this statement, I DO think it's true that you need to keep your job in mind and try to excel at that. A paladin's job is not regenning mana; it's not ending the fight with more mana than everyone else; it's healing as much as possible. If there is a way you can heal more, you should do it. And I have - with seal of light, etc.
1500 is trivial to you? My paly has 40k buffed, which is not a lot nowadays and 1500 is significant every 10 seconds or so. A paladins job is not regenning mana but gee guess what.. its a HUGE part of the class, when crits and most of your abitlies return mana. Im just very confused. O_O
I've generally found the difference between good paladins and bad ones being how often they utilize meleeing for mana and their % of holy light to flash.
And yes, using Seal of Light is pretty terrible considering like 95% of that extra healing is just more overhealing.
I must be having a total mind blank. How does JoL give you mana back, disregarding if the mob has JoW on it (in which case it's only 2% of base mana) or if you have Judgements of the Wise (which is a deep Ret talent)?
I must be having a total mind blank. How does JoL give you mana back, disregarding if the mob has JoW on it (in which case it's only 2% of base mana) or if you have Judgements of the Wise (which is a deep Ret talent)?
Seal of wisdom makes every melee hit give back mana. Judgement of Light is considered a melee attack. The percentage of mana you get back stacking int on a holy pally is roughly 1200-1600 mana per hit, depending on your pool.
So by judging light you not only heal the melee while they hit the boss, but you also gain mana back from using it.
Yea what Langly said. Most of the time i as a holy paly use Seal of wisdom and judge wisdom, with the glyph of wisdom. So in essense im saving 5% mana from my heals and getting back more form judging/melee. A ret paly usually judges light. Much more efficient that way. Its a lot of mana coming back. Add to that a libram that saves you mana on Holy lights like 110 i think it is, helps conserve mana a lot so just keep pounding out those big heals.
The mana returned is a percentage of base mana. It doesn't matter how much Int you have.
Yes that is true. Seal is 4%, judging is 2%. (plus i think this is a tool tip error where its supposed to say total mana) Im going by whats being said on wowhead (base mana)through my iphone, and its a pain. I dont remember the exact amount it returns but it is around 1400 when my judgement hits, which is around 4% of toal.
The int stacking is more for the huge benefits we get from Int.
Bigger mana pool
More crit(which will return more mana)
More mana returned from divine plea, which googling is like 25% or so of total mana over 15 seconds.
I love how all the ret paladins on my server right now are complaining about the lack of information regarding things like interrupts or gap closers. Cause you know, that little page and half of information is the be-all/end-all of information you'll see on your class in the expansion.
I can totally see Pursuit of Justice becoming a talent to give Ret Paladins a short spring like a rogue, rather than the 15% movement speed that it is now.
Also, copying what I posted from the other thread:
Honestly, might as well get rid of Beacon from Paladins repertoire and just give us a proper AoE healing spell, or turn Beacon into a spell that spreads out healing from the applied target, like the HoL glyph, but at a better percentile (25% might not be unreasonable). That would allow the HoL glyph to have a different mechanic, like reduced mana cost, or applies a shield on the target for 3% of the healed amount.
At this point, they might as well just make the paladin AOE heal work the same as wild growth and call it holy growth. And then change flash of light to "Small light", and holy light to "Medium light", and add in "Big light".
Then remove all of druid heals except for healing touch, which will now be "Big touch", and then add in small and medium touch, and leave wild growth.
Then do the exact same thing for the other two classes (I'm thinking Circle of Growth and Chain Growth), so that none of them have any sort of niche at all anymore and they all work the exact same. They can even use the exact same gear as each other since they will all want spirit and int only. Then make their new tier armor identical to each other also, just call it "Healing set".
As somebody who really enjoys healing and the differences between classes (have all tier 10 geared resto druid, holy paladin, resto shaman, and disc priest) every single thing I hear about this expansion in regards to healing sounds like just a terrible failure of homogenization. It's quite sad.
HotR should get the Whirlwind treatment. Make it do less damage but uncap the amount of targets it hits. That could take it out of the single target rotation (or make it a really low priority) to help differentiate single vs. AoE.
Seriously, what is fun about not being able to fill certain healing roles?
Also, Bacon is a very cool skill. I like what they seem to be going for with Holy Pallies here.
For Raid Healing, stand in melee or with ranged, use AoE to passively heal people around you and use Bacon to raid heal and help tank heal at the same time.
Our Paladin healer in my guild is freaking the fuck out about the Beacon of Light changes, and I don't know what to tell him to calm him down. Any advice?
korodullin on
- The Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse (2017, colorized)
That's what I'm doing. I like the aoe heal we're getting. The Beacon change sounds kind of crappy, but all I can do is just wait for these things to go live and see how it goes. If it goes badly, I can look elsewhere for heals that I enjoy doing.
Asharaxx on
0
AngryThe glory I had witnessedwas just a sleight of handRegistered Userregular
Beacon of Light is being tweaked. Apparently healing two targets for the price of one is considered too powerful mana wise for Cataclysm so at the moment they're talking about it only working for certain healing spells.
I wouldn't mind so much, as long as they change the duration to something a little longer. Five minutes would appease me.
The thing that aggravates me the most though is the thought that I'll have spirit on my spellplate. Eww.
Prot is getting ridiculous. Holy shock AND Crusader strike, instant Blinding Shield and the AGoK. They'll be more tougher to kill than anything else on the battlefield.
El Fantastico on
PSN: TheArcadeBear
Steam: TheArcadeBear
0
reVerseAttack and Dethrone GodRegistered Userregular
Prot is getting ridiculous. Holy shock AND Crusader strike, instant Blinding Shield and the AGoK. They'll be more tougher to kill than anything else on the battlefield.
As somebody who really enjoys healing and the differences between classes (have all tier 10 geared resto druid, holy paladin, resto shaman, and disc priest) every single thing I hear about this expansion in regards to healing sounds like just a terrible failure of homogenization. It's quite sad.
I think this might be a bit of an overreaction before seeing how things actually play out. I still fully expect each healing class to have its own style, so to speak. They just seem to be moving towards the idea that any healer should be able to tank heal, OT heal, raid heal, whatever. Honestly, I think that's fine.
They did this with tanks in Wrath, I think it turned out pretty well for everyone and I'd hardly say tanking is the same on every class. Give Blizzard the benefit of the doubt and wait to see how it plays out.
Prot is getting ridiculous. Holy shock AND Crusader strike, instant Blinding Shield and the AGoK. They'll be more tougher to kill than anything else on the battlefield.
Because, you know, they gave a full detail of how all of the paladin abilities (including the ones already in game) are going to work for Cataclsym, and how it's all set in stone and won't change during the beta.
And I'm not entirely sure how you're using "niches" but I am talking about wanting Prot paladins to use slightly different rotations against single targets than against groups. The addition of Crusader Strike (and maybe Holy Shock?) alone start to provide that.
So it looks like we'll have JoW, SHoR, CS, HS as purely single target abilities at least.
Prot is getting ridiculous. Holy shock AND Crusader strike, instant Blinding Shield and the AGoK. They'll be more tougher to kill than anything else on the battlefield.
Because, you know, they gave a full detail of how all of the paladin abilities (including the ones already in game) are going to work for Cataclsym, and how it's all set in stone and won't change during the beta.
So then should we bother discussing at all any patch notes or changes to the game whether its positive or negative? Things will always change with the game, people will always find something they like or dont like. People as always will see the changes in respect to the game that it is now, whether its balanced that way or not, otherwise there is nothing to discuss at all since we really do not know how anything works. Most of these things will possibly change or be tweaked and thats fine.
Because, you know, there is no point of discussing anything, because they didnt gave a full detail of how all(class) abilites(including the ones already in game) are going to work for Cataclsym, and how its not set in stone and will change during the beta, so no point of discussing it. Why are we here again?
Or we could spend our time discussing what we do know, or (perish the thought) talk about shit going on in the Live version of the game. Conjecture can be fun, sometimes, but its usually not on the internet because people ARGHLEBARGLE freak out at the indication that things may be different. Then extrapolation occurs and suddenly everyone's becoming the same class again (which despite all claims never really came close to being true).
And I'm not entirely sure how you're using "niches" but I am talking about wanting Prot paladins to use slightly different rotations against single targets than against groups. The addition of Crusader Strike (and maybe Holy Shock?) alone start to provide that.
So it looks like we'll have JoW, SHoR, CS, HS as purely single target abilities at least.
I could get behind this. Right now, the only difference between single target and AoE tanking for me is whether or not I'm using Seal of Command of Seal of Corruption.
Or we could spend our time discussing what we do know, or (perish the thought) talk about shit going on in the Live version of the game. Conjecture can be fun, sometimes, but its usually not on the internet because people ARGHLEBARGLE freak out at the indication that things may be different. Then extrapolation occurs and suddenly everyone's becoming the same class again (which despite all claims never really came close to being true).
OMG BRING THE PLAYER NOT THE CLASS WHY BOTHER WITH CLASSES
LET'S JUST HAVE TANK HEALER DPS AND BE DONE WITH IT
ACTUALLY LETS JUST HAVE PALADINS SINCE THEY DO EVERYTHING
Or we could spend our time discussing what we do know, or (perish the thought) talk about shit going on in the Live version of the game. Conjecture can be fun, sometimes, but its usually not on the internet because people ARGHLEBARGLE freak out at the indication that things may be different. Then extrapolation occurs and suddenly everyone's becoming the same class again (which despite all claims never really came close to being true).
We do that all the time, discuss the current version of the game. We have people waiting and itching for changes/patch notes etc for the game. Staying up till they come out. And yes you are right that people freak out, they dont like what they think is going to heavily affect their gameplay, and thats being goosey especially when they dont know how things will change. But i guess blizz is getting feedback from what people are saying in regards to all this as well.
Or we could spend our time discussing what we do know, or (perish the thought) talk about shit going on in the Live version of the game. Conjecture can be fun, sometimes, but its usually not on the internet because people ARGHLEBARGLE freak out at the indication that things may be different. Then extrapolation occurs and suddenly everyone's becoming the same class again (which despite all claims never really came close to being true).
OMG BRING THE PLAYER NOT THE CLASS WHY BOTHER WITH CLASSES
LET'S JUST HAVE TANK HEALER DPS AND BE DONE WITH IT
ACTUALLY LETS JUST HAVE PALADINS SINCE THEY DO EVERYTHING
STOP RUINING THE GAME BLIZ FUCK
I feel like this could be made into a great one-act play about receiving patch notes.
Prot is getting ridiculous. Holy shock AND Crusader strike, instant Blinding Shield and the AGoK. They'll be more tougher to kill than anything else on the battlefield.
Because, you know, they gave a full detail of how all of the paladin abilities (including the ones already in game) are going to work for Cataclsym, and how it's all set in stone and won't change during the beta.
So then should we bother discussing at all any patch notes or changes to the game whether its positive or negative? Things will always change with the game, people will always find something they like or dont like. People as always will see the changes in respect to the game that it is now, whether its balanced that way or not, otherwise there is nothing to discuss at all since we really do not know how anything works. Most of these things will possibly change or be tweaked and thats fine.
Because, you know, there is no point of discussing anything, because they didnt gave a full detail of how all(class) abilites(including the ones already in game) are going to work for Cataclsym, and how its not set in stone and will change during the beta, so no point of discussing it. Why are we here again?
There's a difference between chicken little style "OMG THIS CLASS WILL BE SO OVERPOWERED" style statements and "Wow, it looks like right now that this class is getting lots of new abilities, let's speculate on what else is changing with the class." statements.
Can someone help get me up to speed? I've gone back to WoW after being away for four years. I'm trying to get back into my lvl 60 paladin and I've no idea what I used to do with him, or what he should do now.
I used a ret-spec talent point guide and did this (if you care):
5/5 Benediction
2/2 Improved Judgements
3/3 Heart of the Crusader
1/1 Seal of Command (level 20)
2/2 Pursuit of Justice
2/5 Conviction
3/3 Sanctity of Battle
4/5 Conviction
1/1 Sanctified Retribution (level 30)
3/3 Two-Handed Weapon Specialization
5/5 Conviction
3/3 Vengeance
2/2 Improved Blessing of Might
3/3 Judgements of the Wise (level 40 at 1/3)
2/2 Art of War
1/1 Repentance
3/3 Fanaticism
1/2 Sanctified Wrath
1/1 Crusader Strike (level 50)
3/3 Sheath of Light
2/2 Sanctified Wrath
3/3 Righteous Vengeance
2/3 Crusade
1/1 Divine Storm (level 60)
5/5 Divine Strength (Protection Tree)
3/3 Crusade (we end at level 66)
Anyway I've been fighting stuff in this pattern:
Have blessing of might
Have ret aura
Have seal of command
Attack enemy
Use Repentance if I'm attacking more than one enemy
Hit judgement of the wise every time I'm able
hit Crusader strike every time I'm able
Use whatever the skill is that stuns an enemy for 6 seconds whenever I can
Repeat
Is there more to it? I'm solo-ing, playing alone mostly. This pattern seems to be working pretty well. Using a two-handed polearm with a slow speed, which is another tip I've gotten.
I don't feel I have a good grasp of what I'm doing, really. Can anyone help me by explaining it? Feel free to talk to me like I'm real dumb because I don't remember anything.
I'd throw in Consecration on large groups, and Divine Storm should be part of your attacks, all the time. Also, exorcism is instant cast when Art of War goes off, so that can be part of your basic attack routine, too.
Getting the Clcret mod can help you get an idea of how to do your rotation.
If you're not hurting for HP, you can judge Wisdom for mana. I'd personally get 3/3 Judgments of the Wise by 68. As little as replenishment ticks away, it's still something to help you keep going while leveling and it'll make you semi-popular with a group.
Also, what glyphs are you using? The minor for Blessing of Might is nice because you won't have to blow a reagent while soloing for a 30 minute buff.
Also, I would only suggest using repentance if you think you're getting overwhelmed. Honestly, I never had that problem, between AoW procs to pop a heal and my various bubbles, I very rarely had issues with multiple opponents.
And I'm not entirely sure how you're using "niches" but I am talking about wanting Prot paladins to use slightly different rotations against single targets than against groups. The addition of Crusader Strike (and maybe Holy Shock?) alone start to provide that.
So it looks like we'll have JoW, SHoR, CS, HS as purely single target abilities at least.
Oh good, that also clarifies that Holy Shock's damage component isn't being removed, which is something you could maybe have read into the HS bit about it becoming "a core healing spell."
And it also conveniently improves Prot's single-target threat! Win-win in my book.
korodullin on
- The Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse (2017, colorized)
With Holy Shock going baseline, I question if they'll change it's mechanics like they did with consecrate.
Consecrate used to scale based on the paladin's SP. Then they changed it to AP when they decided to homogenize Paladin tank gear away from spell plate moving into the WotLK expansion. No real complaints there since it became a valuable tank tool.
With Holy Shock, Protadins have a decent mix of AP and SP, though it sounds like they'll have more lean to AP with the Vengeance thing. So Holy Shock probably won't do as much damage/healing for them as Holy Paladins - unless they switch it to AP just like they did consecrate. I can only hope not, and if anything, they put a talent to switch HS' modifier for the Prot/Ret tree to have it scale better to suit their needs.
With Holy Shock going baseline, I question if they'll change it's mechanics like they did with consecrate.
Consecrate used to scale based on the paladin's SP. Then they changed it to AP when they decided to homogenize Paladin tank gear away from spell plate moving into the WotLK expansion. No real complaints there since it became a valuable tank tool.
With Holy Shock, Protadins have a decent mix of AP and SP, though it sounds like they'll have more lean to AP with the Vengeance thing. So Holy Shock probably won't do as much damage/healing for them as Holy Paladins - unless they switch it to AP just like they did consecrate. I can only hope not, and if anything, they put a talent to switch HS' modifier for the Prot/Ret tree to have it scale better to suit their needs.
To my knowledge Consecrate still scales off SP, the trick here is that SP is derived from STR/AP for Prot/Ret.
Honestly, Holy Paladins should just be retuned to use the same gear as Ret, so that they get spellpower from strength and crit. Spell plate can then die and not take up room on our loot tables for the other 29 specs in the game.
Posts
1500 is trivial to you? My paly has 40k buffed, which is not a lot nowadays and 1500 is significant every 10 seconds or so. A paladins job is not regenning mana but gee guess what.. its a HUGE part of the class, when crits and most of your abitlies return mana. Im just very confused. O_O
And yes, using Seal of Light is pretty terrible considering like 95% of that extra healing is just more overhealing.
Seal of wisdom makes every melee hit give back mana. Judgement of Light is considered a melee attack. The percentage of mana you get back stacking int on a holy pally is roughly 1200-1600 mana per hit, depending on your pool.
So by judging light you not only heal the melee while they hit the boss, but you also gain mana back from using it.
Edit: It returns 2% of base mana, which at level 80 is ~88 mana. I have no idea how people are proccing it for 1500.
Edit: Thought you said Judgement of Wisdom, not Seal, so nvm.
Yes that is true. Seal is 4%, judging is 2%. (plus i think this is a tool tip error where its supposed to say total mana) Im going by whats being said on wowhead (base mana)through my iphone, and its a pain. I dont remember the exact amount it returns but it is around 1400 when my judgement hits, which is around 4% of toal.
The int stacking is more for the huge benefits we get from Int.
Bigger mana pool
More crit(which will return more mana)
More mana returned from divine plea, which googling is like 25% or so of total mana over 15 seconds.
So:
SoW - Returns 4% of max mana
JoW - Returns 2% of base mana
Sorry for the confusion.
I can totally see Pursuit of Justice becoming a talent to give Ret Paladins a short spring like a rogue, rather than the 15% movement speed that it is now.
Also, copying what I posted from the other thread:
Steam: TheArcadeBear
Then remove all of druid heals except for healing touch, which will now be "Big touch", and then add in small and medium touch, and leave wild growth.
Then do the exact same thing for the other two classes (I'm thinking Circle of Growth and Chain Growth), so that none of them have any sort of niche at all anymore and they all work the exact same. They can even use the exact same gear as each other since they will all want spirit and int only. Then make their new tier armor identical to each other also, just call it "Healing set".
As somebody who really enjoys healing and the differences between classes (have all tier 10 geared resto druid, holy paladin, resto shaman, and disc priest) every single thing I hear about this expansion in regards to healing sounds like just a terrible failure of homogenization. It's quite sad.
your post is reasonable too, forty, but in a not sarcastic way.
Also, Bacon is a very cool skill. I like what they seem to be going for with Holy Pallies here.
For Raid Healing, stand in melee or with ranged, use AoE to passively heal people around you and use Bacon to raid heal and help tank heal at the same time.
- The Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse (2017, colorized)
That's what I'm doing. I like the aoe heal we're getting. The Beacon change sounds kind of crappy, but all I can do is just wait for these things to go live and see how it goes. If it goes badly, I can look elsewhere for heals that I enjoy doing.
I wouldn't mind so much, as long as they change the duration to something a little longer. Five minutes would appease me.
The thing that aggravates me the most though is the thought that I'll have spirit on my spellplate. Eww.
Fucking newbies. :x
Anyway, I don't see any Prot nerfs. All good with me. PvP prot for rated Battlegrounds.
Steam: TheArcadeBear
So nothing changes in that regard.
I think this might be a bit of an overreaction before seeing how things actually play out. I still fully expect each healing class to have its own style, so to speak. They just seem to be moving towards the idea that any healer should be able to tank heal, OT heal, raid heal, whatever. Honestly, I think that's fine.
They did this with tanks in Wrath, I think it turned out pretty well for everyone and I'd hardly say tanking is the same on every class. Give Blizzard the benefit of the doubt and wait to see how it plays out.
Because, you know, they gave a full detail of how all of the paladin abilities (including the ones already in game) are going to work for Cataclsym, and how it's all set in stone and won't change during the beta.
So it looks like we'll have JoW, SHoR, CS, HS as purely single target abilities at least.
So then should we bother discussing at all any patch notes or changes to the game whether its positive or negative? Things will always change with the game, people will always find something they like or dont like. People as always will see the changes in respect to the game that it is now, whether its balanced that way or not, otherwise there is nothing to discuss at all since we really do not know how anything works. Most of these things will possibly change or be tweaked and thats fine.
Because, you know, there is no point of discussing anything, because they didnt gave a full detail of how all(class) abilites(including the ones already in game) are going to work for Cataclsym, and how its not set in stone and will change during the beta, so no point of discussing it. Why are we here again?
I could get behind this. Right now, the only difference between single target and AoE tanking for me is whether or not I'm using Seal of Command of Seal of Corruption.
OMG BRING THE PLAYER NOT THE CLASS WHY BOTHER WITH CLASSES
LET'S JUST HAVE TANK HEALER DPS AND BE DONE WITH IT
ACTUALLY LETS JUST HAVE PALADINS SINCE THEY DO EVERYTHING
STOP RUINING THE GAME BLIZ FUCK
We do that all the time, discuss the current version of the game. We have people waiting and itching for changes/patch notes etc for the game. Staying up till they come out. And yes you are right that people freak out, they dont like what they think is going to heavily affect their gameplay, and thats being goosey especially when they dont know how things will change. But i guess blizz is getting feedback from what people are saying in regards to all this as well.
I feel like this could be made into a great one-act play about receiving patch notes.
*claps*
There's a difference between chicken little style "OMG THIS CLASS WILL BE SO OVERPOWERED" style statements and "Wow, it looks like right now that this class is getting lots of new abilities, let's speculate on what else is changing with the class." statements.
I used a ret-spec talent point guide and did this (if you care):
2/2 Improved Judgements
3/3 Heart of the Crusader
1/1 Seal of Command (level 20)
2/2 Pursuit of Justice
2/5 Conviction
3/3 Sanctity of Battle
4/5 Conviction
1/1 Sanctified Retribution (level 30)
3/3 Two-Handed Weapon Specialization
5/5 Conviction
3/3 Vengeance
2/2 Improved Blessing of Might
3/3 Judgements of the Wise (level 40 at 1/3)
2/2 Art of War
1/1 Repentance
3/3 Fanaticism
1/2 Sanctified Wrath
1/1 Crusader Strike (level 50)
3/3 Sheath of Light
2/2 Sanctified Wrath
3/3 Righteous Vengeance
2/3 Crusade
1/1 Divine Storm (level 60)
5/5 Divine Strength (Protection Tree)
3/3 Crusade (we end at level 66)
Anyway I've been fighting stuff in this pattern:
Is there more to it? I'm solo-ing, playing alone mostly. This pattern seems to be working pretty well. Using a two-handed polearm with a slow speed, which is another tip I've gotten.
I don't feel I have a good grasp of what I'm doing, really. Can anyone help me by explaining it? Feel free to talk to me like I'm real dumb because I don't remember anything.
If you're not hurting for HP, you can judge Wisdom for mana. I'd personally get 3/3 Judgments of the Wise by 68. As little as replenishment ticks away, it's still something to help you keep going while leveling and it'll make you semi-popular with a group.
Also, what glyphs are you using? The minor for Blessing of Might is nice because you won't have to blow a reagent while soloing for a 30 minute buff.
Oh good, that also clarifies that Holy Shock's damage component isn't being removed, which is something you could maybe have read into the HS bit about it becoming "a core healing spell."
And it also conveniently improves Prot's single-target threat! Win-win in my book.
- The Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse (2017, colorized)
Consecrate used to scale based on the paladin's SP. Then they changed it to AP when they decided to homogenize Paladin tank gear away from spell plate moving into the WotLK expansion. No real complaints there since it became a valuable tank tool.
With Holy Shock, Protadins have a decent mix of AP and SP, though it sounds like they'll have more lean to AP with the Vengeance thing. So Holy Shock probably won't do as much damage/healing for them as Holy Paladins - unless they switch it to AP just like they did consecrate. I can only hope not, and if anything, they put a talent to switch HS' modifier for the Prot/Ret tree to have it scale better to suit their needs.
Steam: TheArcadeBear
To my knowledge Consecrate still scales off SP, the trick here is that SP is derived from STR/AP for Prot/Ret.
So typically for ret and prot it should be AP, and for holy it'd be SP.