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Apple To Developers: Fuck You

1568101129

Posts

  • PeregrineFalconPeregrineFalcon Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    syndalis wrote: »
    edit: Objective-C along with Cocoa framework / interface builder is so fucking elegant and easy to use that I have no idea why this is even a thing. Anyone with coding experience can get up and running in days in this environment.

    Because if I want to code an app in Flash under Windows and port it through a cross-compiler onto a jailbroken iPod I should be able to because I own the hardware and stuffs and herpity derpity derp

    Yes it's trollin' sorta, but really, despite my lack of love for Apple I'm inclined more to side with the "their ball, their rules" crew on this. You want access to the potential $Fuckloads of cash that the App Store can provide, you've got to do the Steve Jobs shuffle.

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  • iTunesIsEviliTunesIsEvil Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    And call me when Obj-C has an actual garbage collector.
    Ring ring.

  • syndalissyndalis Getting Classy On the WallRegistered User, Loves Apple Products regular
    edited April 2010
    And call me when Obj-C has an actual garbage collector.

    Well, it does, and has since Leopard came out in 2007.

    http://developer.apple.com/mac/library/documentation/Cocoa/Conceptual/GarbageCollection/Introduction.html

    As for on the iPhone? Not yet. And not on the upcoming 4.0 release either. A little bit of a PITA for sure, but it hasn't stopped tons of developers from pulling off some insanely good stuff on the platform.

  • AngelHedgieAngelHedgie Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    As for 3.3.9, Apple is saying that third party platforms aren't allowed to gather user metrics, which is the lifeblood of any/add platform. Furthermore, that restriction doesn't apply to iAd, meaning that iAd has a clear advantage over any other ad platform, all because of a clause in Apple's dev contract. And Apple has told developers that they see 3.3.9 as saying "apps may not gather user metrics whatsoever", which means no gathering real-world usage stats for improving your app.

    [citation needed]

    As far as I can read into it, 3.3.9 only states that you can't use third-party gathering. I'd like to see where Apple is arguing that I can't use my own methods to collect data about something as simple as "how long have you been playing? what's your high score?"

    * all of this is opt-in and doesn't do anything other than let you ePeen on a webpage, yes I know they're not performance metrics but still

    So, you didn't read the Wired article I posted on page 9?

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  • PeregrineFalconPeregrineFalcon Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    So, you didn't read the Wired article I posted on page 9?

    And I guess you missed it when I asked/alluded to this the first time on page 10? The first 10 paragraphs of the Wired article were all about iAds so I missed the part at the end from an Anonymous Developer:
    Section 3.3.9 also frightens app developers who don’t want to embed ads. One app developer, who also asked to remain anonymous, fears what this clause could do to developers who simply want to improve their apps.

    “That rule change is potentially scary until it is clear what Apple is prohibiting,” said this developer of several prominent apps, who asked to remain anonymous to avoid drawing scrutiny from Apple, because his or her apps collect usage data. “Being able to … test some things in your apps [to] get an idea of how users are using the apps can be very, very useful for making the apps better and learning about what users really want and enjoy.”

    According to what another anonymous developer told Paul Boutin, formerly of Wired.com and now of VentureBeat, Apple will block the collection of that sort of data. The company told a developer whose app it was rejecting: “It is not appropriate for applications to gather user analytics. Specifically, you may not collect anonymous play data from a user’s game.”

    Now, is it that they're disallowing it because it's anonymous data, potentially collected without opt-in from the user? I'd like to see clarification on this.

    Looking for a DX:HR OnLive code for my kid brother.
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  • RandomEngyRandomEngy Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    An app rejected because it "ridicules public figures"? Wow. Smartphones are becoming more and more like a mobile PC platform. It's downright unsettling to see them exercising such control over it. Can you imagine having to get any app developed for Windows approved by Microsoft? Also it's not like they're keeping their platform squeaky-clean by rejecting these apps. I mean, they have a web browser on the phone.

    I guess that's part of the reason I got an Android phone. It feels most like a true, open PC platform.

    Profile -> Signature Settings -> Hide signatures always. Then you don't have to read this worthless text anymore.
  • CommunistCowCommunistCow Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    No, I am not really communist. Yes, it is weird that I use this name.
  • syndalissyndalis Getting Classy On the WallRegistered User, Loves Apple Products regular
    edited April 2010

    It's funny, but also kind of true.

    iTunes SUCKS in windows for largely that reason. you never hear a mac user complaining about iTunes being bloated or buggy, or prone to crashing, but windows users cite this as an issue all the time. The reason for this is because Apple basically shoehorns mac conventions into a windows app. If they rewrote iTunes in .net for the windows users, they would get a superior experience on their platform to what they currently have.

    This actually is an example that points in apple's favor on this specific issue.

  • JHunzJHunz Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    syndalis wrote: »

    It's funny, but also kind of true.

    iTunes SUCKS in windows for largely that reason. you never hear a mac user complaining about iTunes being bloated or buggy, or prone to crashing, but windows users cite this as an issue all the time. The reason for this is because Apple basically shoehorns mac conventions into a windows app. If they rewrote iTunes in .net for the windows users, they would get a superior experience on their platform to what they currently have.

    This actually is an example that points in apple's favor on this specific issue.

    What? How could you possibly argue that a terrible software port on Apple's part points in their favor?

    bunny.gif Gamertag: JHunz. R.I.P. Mygamercard.net bunny.gif
  • syndalissyndalis Getting Classy On the WallRegistered User, Loves Apple Products regular
    edited April 2010
    JHunz wrote: »
    syndalis wrote: »

    It's funny, but also kind of true.

    iTunes SUCKS in windows for largely that reason. you never hear a mac user complaining about iTunes being bloated or buggy, or prone to crashing, but windows users cite this as an issue all the time. The reason for this is because Apple basically shoehorns mac conventions into a windows app. If they rewrote iTunes in .net for the windows users, they would get a superior experience on their platform to what they currently have.

    This actually is an example that points in apple's favor on this specific issue.

    What? How could you possibly argue that a terrible software port on Apple's part points in their favor?

    I said on this specific issue. itunes is shit on the PC, and Apple needs to clean that house something fierce, as a ton of their iPod/iPhone users are stuck using it.

    But the REASON it is shit is the very same thing they are trying to keep other developers from doing, which is being lazy and not coding with the tools and for the strengths of the platform.

    So they are a bit hypocritical here, for sure... but iTunes sucking on windows is similar to why true cross compilers are a bad move for mobile platforms.

  • RandomEngyRandomEngy Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    Cross compiling doesn't make you include a bunch of services and apps you don't need in the install. Or make you ignore the OS-recognized ratings on songs. Or make it prompt to download completely unrelated software, instead of just updating itself. Or regularly forget subscriptions to TV shows, making you re-enter your data over and over in a clunky interface. Sure, it would be nicer if iTunes followed Windows UI conventions, but that's not the real reason why it sucks.

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  • BarrakkethBarrakketh Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    These developers should check out this Internet thing. Its got these "pages" that you can view in these "browser" things across just about any OS you want and they'll look and work almost exactly the same. Write the code once, reach almost every platform!

    Write an application that can do RSA/DSA cryptography, support pubkey exchange, and function as a SOCKS proxy in Javascript/HTML, then get back to me. Oh, and it actually has to perform well and be secure.
    Spoiler:

    That post is some serious silly goosery.
    syndalis wrote: »
    major players like Valve and Blizzard are doing same-day releases of Mac and PC titles.

    Funny how things change over time.

    Well, I seriously doubt you would be seeing same-day releases if Macs still used PPC even with the current OS X install base. That probably has a bigger impact most other factors when you consider that multi-console releases have made developers less reliant on DirectX.

    And yeah, Macs are finally getting some native releases along with some actual big boy games for adults :P

  • syndalissyndalis Getting Classy On the WallRegistered User, Loves Apple Products regular
    edited April 2010
    RandomEngy wrote: »
    Cross compiling doesn't make you include a bunch of services and apps you don't need in the install.
    It absolutely does if those services and apps are part and parcel with its native platform and you have to tie them in somehow.
    Or make you ignore the OS-recognized ratings on songs.
    Sure does if the other OS it is based on did things differently and you don't bother to truly optimize for the platform.
    Or make it prompt to download completely unrelated software, instead of just updating itself.
    If those same dependencies (Quicktime comes to mind) are used to make the app work right on the non-target platform, then yeah, it kind of has an obligation to keep it up to date.
    Or regularly forget subscriptions to TV shows, making you re-enter your data over and over in a clunky interface.
    That's an odd bug...
    Sure, it would be nicer if iTunes followed Windows UI conventions, but that's not the real reason why it sucks.
    When you aren't building for the target platform, almost all of those things are par for the course.

  • Donkey KongDonkey Kong Warning: Donkey Kong is not a real doctor Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    Barrakketh wrote: »
    These developers should check out this Internet thing. Its got these "pages" that you can view in these "browser" things across just about any OS you want and they'll look and work almost exactly the same. Write the code once, reach almost every platform!

    Write an application that can do RSA/DSA cryptography, support pubkey exchange, and function as a SOCKS proxy in Javascript/HTML, then get back to me. Oh, and it actually has to perform well and be secure.
    Spoiler:

    That post is some serious silly goosery.
    syndalis wrote: »
    major players like Valve and Blizzard are doing same-day releases of Mac and PC titles.

    Funny how things change over time.

    Well, I seriously doubt you would be seeing same-day releases if Macs still used PPC even with the current OS X install base. That probably has a bigger impact most other factors when you consider that multi-console releases have made developers less reliant on DirectX.

    And yeah, Macs are finally getting some native releases along with some actual big boy games for adults :P

    It's funny because the XBox 360 is running PPC processors.

    easy_tetris_sig.gifbubbulon3_sig.png
  • syndalissyndalis Getting Classy On the WallRegistered User, Loves Apple Products regular
    edited April 2010
    Barrakketh wrote: »
    These developers should check out this Internet thing. Its got these "pages" that you can view in these "browser" things across just about any OS you want and they'll look and work almost exactly the same. Write the code once, reach almost every platform!

    Write an application that can do RSA/DSA cryptography, support pubkey exchange, and function as a SOCKS proxy in Javascript/HTML, then get back to me. Oh, and it actually has to perform well and be secure.
    Spoiler:

    That post is some serious silly goosery.
    syndalis wrote: »
    major players like Valve and Blizzard are doing same-day releases of Mac and PC titles.

    Funny how things change over time.

    Well, I seriously doubt you would be seeing same-day releases if Macs still used PPC even with the current OS X install base. That probably has a bigger impact most other factors when you consider that multi-console releases have made developers less reliant on DirectX.

    And yeah, Macs are finally getting some native releases along with some actual big boy games for adults :P

    It's funny because the XBox 360, PS3 AND the Wii is running PPC processors.

    Fixed that for the ultimate in irony.

  • BarrakkethBarrakketh Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    syndalis wrote: »
    Fixed that for the ultimate in irony.

    Only the "general" processor of the Cell is PPC, and you forgot that the GCN also used a PPC processor. Strange world, eh?

    The big difference is that the 360, GCN, and Wii processors are tailored to the customers' needs. The PPC products used Apple et al were sold off to a different company.

  • iTunesIsEviliTunesIsEvil Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    Barrakketh wrote: »
    These developers should check out this Internet thing. Its got these "pages" that you can view in these "browser" things across just about any OS you want and they'll look and work almost exactly the same. Write the code once, reach almost every platform!

    Write an application that can do RSA/DSA cryptography, support pubkey exchange, and function as a SOCKS proxy in Javascript/HTML, then get back to me. Oh, and it actually has to perform well and be secure.
    Spoiler:

    That post is some serious silly goosery.
    I'm really not sure what point you're trying to make here, Barrakketh. That HTML/JS don't offer the same API's as the iPhone OS does? You don't say!

    When you write software for someone's platform, you have to play by their rules. If you don't want to play by their rules because you only want to have one set of source to maintain then you might just be fucked. Your options are to not write for the platform that requires a special set of code, or to write the code the way you need to to get on the platform and to sell your product. This is entirely up to the developer.

  • RandomEngyRandomEngy Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    syndalis wrote: »
    RandomEngy wrote: »
    Cross compiling doesn't make you include a bunch of services and apps you don't need in the install.
    It absolutely does if those services and apps are part and parcel with its native platform and you have to tie them in somehow.

    That's not what iTunes does. You can cut out a whole lot of the iTunes install and still have the program function just fine.
    Or make you ignore the OS-recognized ratings on songs.
    Sure does if the other OS it is based on did things differently and you don't bother to truly optimize for the platform.

    No, it has zero to do with the OS "doing things differently". The ratings for songs in Vista/7 are stored in a well-known tag within the file itself. Other programs like MediaMonkey read this tag and cross-compiling doesn't prevent Apple from doing the same.
    Or make it prompt to download completely unrelated software, instead of just updating itself.
    If those same dependencies (Quicktime comes to mind) are used to make the app work right on the non-target platform, then yeah, it kind of has an obligation to keep it up to date.

    I'm talking about Safari. Under no circumstances should an updater be pushing that. At one point they even had it checked by default, so if all you did was click "update", you'd be installing their web browser!
    Or regularly forget subscriptions to TV shows, making you re-enter your data over and over in a clunky interface.
    That's an odd bug...
    Sure, it would be nicer if iTunes followed Windows UI conventions, but that's not the real reason why it sucks.
    When you aren't building for the target platform, almost all of those things are par for the course.

    No, it really isn't.

    Profile -> Signature Settings -> Hide signatures always. Then you don't have to read this worthless text anymore.
  • PeregrineFalconPeregrineFalcon Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    RandomEngy wrote: »
    I'm talking about Safari. Under no circumstances should an updater be pushing that. At one point they even had it checked by default, so if all you did was click "update", you'd be installing their web browser!

    Where the fuck was the sue-happy EU on that one?

    Looking for a DX:HR OnLive code for my kid brother.
    Can trade TF2 items or whatever else you're interested in. PM me.
  • Xenogears of BoreXenogears of Bore Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    I gotta admit though the only programs that have crashed on my mac multiple times are itunes and Safari...

    3DS CODE: 3093-7068-3576
  • CouscousCouscous Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    I gotta admit though the only programs that have crashed on my mac multiple times are itunes and Safari...

    At least iTunes isn't as much of a peace of shit on the mac as it is on the PC.

  • Xenogears of BoreXenogears of Bore Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    Wouldn't know, don't use itunes on Windows, why would you?

    3DS CODE: 3093-7068-3576
  • EndEnd Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    RandomEngy wrote: »
    I'm talking about Safari. Under no circumstances should an updater be pushing that. At one point they even had it checked by default, so if all you did was click "update", you'd be installing their web browser!

    Where the fuck was the sue-happy EU on that one?

    Probably flew under their radar.
    Wouldn't know, don't use itunes on Windows, why would you?

    iPhone/iPad/iPod probably?

    Edit: Also, I'm not really a fan of windows media player, and although I've also discovered I'm not a fan of iTunes either, some people probably use it if they don't want to use WMP.

    so dark and foul I can't disguise
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  • Xenogears of BoreXenogears of Bore Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    Got a mac for that. A really, REALLY, old mac, but still! Also I don't have a working ipod right now, nor will I ever get an iPad. Have the phone for work, almost never use it.

    3DS CODE: 3093-7068-3576
  • EndEnd Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    It's not like everyone just happens to have a (old or new) Mac laying around. :P

    so dark and foul I can't disguise
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  • CommunistCowCommunistCow Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    syndalis wrote: »

    It's funny, but also kind of true.

    iTunes SUCKS in windows for largely that reason. you never hear a mac user complaining about iTunes being bloated or buggy, or prone to crashing, but windows users cite this as an issue all the time. The reason for this is because Apple basically shoehorns mac conventions into a windows app. If they rewrote iTunes in .net for the windows users, they would get a superior experience on their platform to what they currently have.

    This actually is an example that points in apple's favor on this specific issue.

    That is only your opinion. I run itunes on my win7 box just fine without any slowness issues or crashing.

    No, I am not really communist. Yes, it is weird that I use this name.
  • cloudeaglecloudeagle Zhu-Li, do the thing! Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    syndalis wrote: »

    It's funny, but also kind of true.

    iTunes SUCKS in windows for largely that reason. you never hear a mac user complaining about iTunes being bloated or buggy, or prone to crashing, but windows users cite this as an issue all the time. The reason for this is because Apple basically shoehorns mac conventions into a windows app. If they rewrote iTunes in .net for the windows users, they would get a superior experience on their platform to what they currently have.

    This actually is an example that points in apple's favor on this specific issue.

    That is only your opinion. I run itunes on my win7 box just fine without any slowness issues or crashing.

    It's worked better for me on my three-month-old Win7 machine than my old WinXP, but it's still crashed on me a time or two.

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  • Xenogears of BoreXenogears of Bore Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    It has a system pause programmed into the code for no other reason than to make it look slow.

    3DS CODE: 3093-7068-3576
  • AngelHedgieAngelHedgie Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    Seems that Apple got somewhat of a black eye over Mark Fiore's story of app rejection, as they're now asking him to resubmit it.

    And it's good that Fiore's pointing out that Apple's policies regarding satire are bullshit.

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    Spoiler:
  • AngelHedgieAngelHedgie Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    XBL: Nox Aeternum / PSN: NoxAeternum / NN:NoxAeternum
    Spoiler:
  • Protein ShakesProtein Shakes __BANNED USERS
    edited April 2010
    So much anti-Apple rhetoric, jeez.

    Can't you present your articles in a more neutral tone?

    Modern Man wrote: »
    Well, if my mom met the following criteria... I'd be in favor if waterboarding her.
  • AngelHedgieAngelHedgie Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    So much anti-Apple rhetoric, jeez.

    Can't you present your articles in a more neutral tone?

    Why should I? I think Apple's move is bullshit - why shouldn't I stake out my stance?

    Besides, I don't think you really can present either of these articles in a neutral light fairly.

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    Spoiler:
  • Protein ShakesProtein Shakes __BANNED USERS
    edited April 2010
    Why should I?

    Mostly because there may be people (such as myself) who are interested in discussing the core issues without having to deal with the rhetoric.

    I mean, you don't have to... so just consider this a civil request. That's all.

    Modern Man wrote: »
    Well, if my mom met the following criteria... I'd be in favor if waterboarding her.
  • EvanderEvander Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    the level of rhetoric is pretty low, honestly.

    I mean, drop "wrath of steve", and nothing in the hyperlinks are really all that subjective

    georgersig.jpg
  • AtomikaAtomika Hypercritical Queen Bitch of Cinema Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    Evander wrote: »
    the level of rhetoric is pretty low, honestly.

    I mean, drop "wrath of steve", and nothing in the hyperlinks are really all that subjective

    "Other than that, how was the show, Mrs. Lincoln?"

  • nescientistnescientist Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    Evander wrote: »
    the level of rhetoric is pretty low, honestly.

    This is, after all, Debate & Discourse. Things get kinda... heated around here. And Apple is a notoriously polarizing company, particularly amongst the sort of crowd who posts on discussion forums like this one. It's pretty much indisputable that if money is no object and you're not really technically-inclined in the first place, Apple's products are a fabulous choice. But amongst the tech-philes out there, you get either unshakable allegiance to the slick implementation of PC Unix or vitriolic outrage over the condescending combination of tightly-controlled hardware, form-over-function aesthetics, and price-points that can fairly be described as "elitist".

    I love Apple's OS and am consistently impressed with their build quality, but I would never purchase one of their products without a substantial price reduction because their OS and build quality rarely justify the premium pricing. I think I'm a bit unusual in that this is my primary (if not sole) objection to Apple, rather than their sleazy collaboration with AT&T or one-button mice or remotely-bricking iPhones "on accident." The only Apple product I've personally owned was a Macbook Pro, which was a generous gift from someone else, and I really did love the thing, so I get the Apple love, particularly OSX love. OSX is really fucking awesome, as is the iPhone/iTouch/iPad OS derived from it. But even though I never had a jailbroken iPhone go bricky, or had to replace an iPod battery that had been sealed behind impenetrably insane engineering, or developed an app for the iPhone in a non-Xtools environment, or otherwise had a direct experience to make me angry with Apple... I can absolutely understand why it seems like half of my peers want the Cupertino company burned to the ground while the other half want Steve Jobs canonized.

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  • electricitylikesmeelectricitylikesme Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    Having recently tried to setup the non-Xcode build chain I can safely say this: holy shit I have mad respect for the people who are doing that.

  • JokermanJokerman Love is careless in its choosing. Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    Why should I?

    Mostly because there may be people (such as myself) who are interested in discussing the core issues without having to deal with the rhetoric.

    I mean, you don't have to... so just consider this a civil request. That's all.

    Oh nos, the OP has a strong opinion. How will i ever voice my opinion?

    Oh wait, you've been doing that over, and over, and over again.

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  • EvanderEvander Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    Evander wrote: »
    the level of rhetoric is pretty low, honestly.

    I mean, drop "wrath of steve", and nothing in the hyperlinks are really all that subjective

    "Other than that, how was the show, Mrs. Lincoln?"

    yes, "wrath of steve" is in ANY way comparable to the assassination of a president.

    goose

    georgersig.jpg
  • DanHibikiDanHibiki Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    End wrote: »
    It's not like everyone just happens to have a (old or new) Mac laying around. :P

    doesn't just about everything support I-pod management these days? Foobar has plugins for it as an example.

    Only thing not supported is I-store.

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