OtherOS fallout, Sony's changed the EULA now. It's not good. [Page 8]

Unco-ordinated · April 2010

Kainy wrote: »

Unco-ordinated wrote: »

Kainy wrote: »

Given that they're turning the ability to download and play PS2 games into a cash cow, I wouldn't put it past them.

I'm not saying THIS AMS GOING TO HAPPSN! However, I consider removing features, and hell, how they've treated BC with the PS3 in general, to be on par with how stupid of a move it would be, thus placing it in the realm of possibility in my mind.

You're still talking absolute shit though. They've said nothing about being able to download and play PS2 games off the PSN. And seeing as you can both play PS1 games off the PSN and the original CD releases, Sony have set a precedent that they wouldn't remove PS2 disc support.

They've never said anything about downloading PS2 games on the PSN, eh?

Internal SCEA documents procured by Objectif-Sega seem to disagree with that.

You took that long to reply with some unofficial leaked documents? Nice work there.

And you clearly have no clue what the hell you're talking about if you think they've ever had software PS2 emulation in the PS3. Emulating the Emotion Engine? Sure, that's easy. Emulating the Graphics Synthesizer, including the crazy fast bandwidth between the processor itself and its video RAM? Probably impossible on the PS3.

So no, you're not just trying to connect the dots, you're actually drawing most of the dots yourself.

Dirty · April 2010

Exactly, all PS2 compatibility on PS3 has involved at least some kind of hardware. It has never been fully emulated. Like Unco said, PS2 emulation may never be possible on the PS3. Any PS2 Classics that end up on PSN will likely be ports, kind of like how God Of War 1&2 were ported to PS3.

I will say this again. If Sony was going to remove PS2 playback to encourage people to re-buy the games for PS3, then why does the PS3 still accept PS1 discs?

Threepio · April 2010

I keep seeing people posting about class action lawsuits regarding the removal of this feature. I was totally down to get in on one. I went back to the original box for my PS3, and sure enough, Other OS was advertised there.

The box, however, didn't say anything about in-game XMB, trophies, Life with PlayStation, or any of the other features added through firmware updates. I guess it's not the case for everyone, but it reduced my ire.

I mean, I poked at the slope... it doesn't seem that slippery. Hearing people say "well what happens when they start removing gaming functions" makes me chuckle. They don't seriously think that's a possibility... do they?

amnesiasoft · April 2010

Threepio wrote: »

They don't seriously think that's a possibility... do they?

This is Sony. Anything involving "Stupidity" and "Sony" is a possibility.

Kelor · April 2010

Dirty wrote: »

Anyone who is suggesting that Sony will remove PS2 BC from existing BC units to push PS2 Classics should shut the fuck up until Sony removes PS1 BC from existing units to push PS1 Classics.

Given that they said the reason they removed BC from PS3s in the first place was because people were still just buying PS2 games instead of new shiny PS3 ones I can absolutely believe they want to flog their back catalogue over PSN.

As long as they restore the ability to play your old physical PS2 games at the same time as they do this I am fine with it.

cloudeagle · April 2010

Kelor wrote: »

Dirty wrote: »

Anyone who is suggesting that Sony will remove PS2 BC from existing BC units to push PS2 Classics should shut the fuck up until Sony removes PS1 BC from existing units to push PS1 Classics.

Given that they said the reason they removed BC from PS3s in the first place was because people were still just buying PS2 games instead of new shiny PS3 ones I can absolutely believe they want to flog their back catalogue over PSN.

As long as they restore the ability to play your old physical PS2 games at the same time as they do this I am fine with it.

Considering Sony took out the hardware-based components necessary to play PS2 games, that ain't happening.

Dehumanized · April 2010

They could if they ported the games that they wanted to sell GoW collection style. That's pretty dependent on developer interest and how hard it actually is to port the games over, though.

Ultimately pretty unlikely.

-Loki- · April 2010

Bluepoint said the only reason God of War 1 and 2 were easy to port was because they were written completely in C, which is easy to bring to the PS3. All up it took about 7 weeks. So it not only depends on developer interest, but also if they came up with their own scripting language and how difficult that is to bring over.

Dehumanized · April 2010

Makes a lot of sense.

Mr_Grinch · April 2010

There was talk of Ico and SOTC being ported to PS3 prior to The Last Guardian release. I'm at work so can't dig out the quote right now but he lead designer said he was DEFINITELY interested in doing this but it may involve a lot of work due to how the engine worked. I believe SOTC used lots of weird hardware glitches to get it looking as good as it did.

Unco-ordinated · April 2010

Mr_Grinch wrote: »

There was talk of Ico and SOTC being ported to PS3 prior to The Last Guardian release. I'm at work so can't dig out the quote right now but he lead designer said he was DEFINITELY interested in doing this but it may involve a lot of work due to how the engine worked. I believe SOTC used lots of weird hardware glitches to get it looking as good as it did.

Fumito Ueda did say he was interested in doing so. I'm pretty sure everything else you said is just speculation. And no, there were no 'hardware glitches' (sorry but that makes no sense at all), what Team Ico did is manage to 'fake' a lot of different features that the PS2 was just not powerful enough to support. Polyphony Digital managed to pull off some similarly crazy stuff on the PS2.

Mr_Grinch · April 2010

Unco-ordinated wrote: »

Mr_Grinch wrote: »

There was talk of Ico and SOTC being ported to PS3 prior to The Last Guardian release. I'm at work so can't dig out the quote right now but he lead designer said he was DEFINITELY interested in doing this but it may involve a lot of work due to how the engine worked. I believe SOTC used lots of weird hardware glitches to get it looking as good as it did.

Fumito Ueda did say he was interested in doing so. I'm pretty sure everything else you said is just speculation. And no, there were no 'hardware glitches' (sorry but that makes no sense at all), what Team Ico did is manage to 'fake' a lot of different features that the PS2 was just not powerful enough to support. Polyphony Digital managed to pull off some similarly crazy stuff on the PS2.

"I do have an interest in that. Next week, I'll have a meeting [about the possibility] ... But it might not be so easy, because, with both titles we really stretched the limits of the PS2. It's complex. So it's not such an easy transfer to the PS3. But I want to discuss it."

Is the quote I was referring to regarding the difficulty. Original article at:

http://www.destructoid.com/fumito-ueda-wants-team-ico-games-ported-to-ps3-169738.phtml

And you're right, I didn't mean "Hardware Glitches", that was wrong. I more meant a lot of the techniques they used were specifically tailored to exploit the hardware in the PS2, emulating them would be extremely difficult.

darkenedwing · April 2010

Seems like Sony really did piss off Geohot

Mr_Grinch · April 2010

I'm guessing it'll be easy for Sony to spot though. I'm currently using the proxy trick so I can get online and stay at a lower firmware. My Linux install is useful.

Eight Rooks · April 2010

darkenedwing wrote: »

Seems like Sony really did piss off Geohot

the weird thing is... i never used the other OS feature and would've updated my ps3 and forgotten about it... but i haven't turned it on in a few weeks... and since the prospect of having custom firmware intrigues me i just might go through with this

And so it begins.

Oh, well. Still the longest a system's gone without the pirates getting to it.

And don't even start with the slippery slope/strawman accusations; you know that while this commentator might well be a good little boy/girl/humanoid who's never dreamt of doing anything illegal or immoral with their console, there will be thousands upon thousands thinking the exact same thing followed by 'Awright! Free stuff for all!' and GeoHot is deluded if he thinks any different.

I wouldn't be so bothered if he'd just say 'I accept I'm opening the doors for rampant piracy, but that's not my problem'. I'd still think he was a tool, but at least he'd have the decency to be open about it.

And unenforceable or not, the legal boilerplate for the PSN basically says you're granting Sony the right to do whatever they want to your console and to the PSN by connecting. Can't say it said the same thing way back when the first PS3s were released! But it was certainly there before Sony decided they h4t3d my precious Linux.

Mr_Grinch · April 2010

I don't think the firmware is overly "Custom" in that sense, I believe he's just mashed together a couple of signed updates (for want of a more technical explanation). There's no running of his own code.

Mr_Grinch · April 2010

Follow up:

http://www.playstationuniversity.com/ps3-owner-refunded-without-return-for-missing-other-os-3555/

Someone has got a partial refund for their PS3 through Amazon due to the removal of OtherOS.

-Loki- · April 2010

Man, I really don't see piracy becoming big on the PS3. They tend to fill up their exclusives blu rays with 30 gigs of uncompressed audio. Downloading a 50 gig game just because it's got that much uncompressed audio isn't an enticing prospect. And multiplatform games... a 360 is cheaper.

Mr_Grinch · April 2010

-Loki- wrote: »

Man, I really don't see piracy becoming big on the PS3. They tend to fill up their exclusives blu rays with 30 gigs of uncompressed audio. Downloading a 50 gig game just because it's got that much uncompressed audio isn't an enticing prospect. And multiplatform games... a 360 is cheaper.

PS3 games have already been released, albeit not usable. They average around the same size as a 360 game, any extra padding can easily be stripped. Very few games use anywhere NEAR 30gb and I don't think any at all have hit 50gb.

Besides, piracy may not be big but I'd like to see some decent homebrew, my Wii has got so much more use with the recent homebrew boom. Having all my games on a harddrive is incredibly useful when transporting it.

That said my PS3 gets plenty of use at the moment, and I use the online so I doubt I'd be willing to sacrifice that.

Whereas I'd love to homebrew my 360; custom dashes, games installed on the harddrive and things are only just getting started. Sadly my 360 is now above the exploitable dash.

Anyway, back on topic, I used my linux install last night. It's a beast for video encoding.

acidlacedpenguin · April 2010

-Loki- wrote: »

Man, I really don't see piracy becoming big on the PS3. They tend to fill up their exclusives blu rays with 30 gigs of uncompressed audio. Downloading a 50 gig game just because it's got that much uncompressed audio isn't an enticing prospect. And multiplatform games... a 360 is cheaper.

pirates in the past have been known to compress audio/video files to make DVD9 games fit on DVD5s, I imagine just compressing that audio would bring it down to like, 8 or 9 gigs alone.

GrimReaper · April 2010

Mr_Grinch wrote: »

Follow up:

http://www.playstationuniversity.com/ps3-owner-refunded-without-return-for-missing-other-os-3555/

Someone has got a partial refund for their PS3 through Amazon due to the removal of OtherOS.

If people across Europe can get £70'ish cash back for nothing then I suspect a lot of people may take that up, doubt I'll be able to get one. I bought mine from a virgin megastore in Leeds that has since closed.

EDIT: It's £84 ($130), I'd be all over that if that store chain was still open.

ArcticMonkey · April 2010

PS3 Wikipedia Article wrote:

Furthermore, it raises questions about the millions of Euros Sony saved over the years on import tax in Europe, thanks to being able to declare the PS3 a computer rather than a game console -- game consoles carry an import tax, while computers do not.

First I guess [Citation needed].
Second, if the EU and European PS3 buyers could make removing an advertised feature prohibitively costly for Sony, that would be great.

cloudeagle · April 2010

ArcticMonkey wrote: »

PS3 Wikipedia Article wrote:

Furthermore, it raises questions about the millions of Euros Sony saved over the years on import tax in Europe, thanks to being able to declare the PS3 a computer rather than a game console -- game consoles carry an import tax, while computers do not.

First I guess [Citation needed].
Second, if the EU and European PS3 buyers could make removing an advertised feature prohibitively costly for Sony, that would be great.

This is allegedly the only reason Sony allowed people to put Linux in the PS3 to begin with; I remember the baffled conversations on this when the PS3 was released.

Mr_Grinch · April 2010

So sony have apologised:

http://www.thinq.co.uk/news/2010/4/9/sony-says-sorry-for-other-os-take-down/

GrimReaper · April 2010

Mr_Grinch wrote: »

So sony have apologised:

http://www.thinq.co.uk/news/2010/4/9/sony-says-sorry-for-other-os-take-down/

That doesn't read as an apology, it reads more as "tough shit suckers".

I mean, look at the last bit:

Furthermore our terms and conditions clearly state that we have the right to revise the PS3's settings and features in order to prevent access to unauthorised or pirated content.

Unco-ordinated · April 2010

ArcticMonkey wrote: »

PS3 Wikipedia Article wrote:

Furthermore, it raises questions about the millions of Euros Sony saved over the years on import tax in Europe, thanks to being able to declare the PS3 a computer rather than a game console -- game consoles carry an import tax, while computers do not.

First I guess [Citation needed].
Second, if the EU and European PS3 buyers could make removing an advertised feature prohibitively costly for Sony, that would be great.

Whoever wrote that part of the wikipedia entry has no clue what they're talking about. That was probably one of the goals of including Linux support but it didn't actually work, it was never approved (much like their similar attempts with the PS2). If anything Sony would've spent more money including Linux support than they ever earned off it. Off the top of my head, I think that law was changed shortly afterwards anyway.

halkun · April 2010

Awesome, Sony's changed their EULA that says they can alter the system without your knowledge or consent. So now updates can be installed without you agreeing to them.

Here's the link

amnesiasoft · April 2010

These last two firmware updates make me regret having bought my PS3. Guess my game count will not be going above 5 though.

Threepio · April 2010

amnesiasoft wrote: »

These last two firmware updates make me regret having bought my PS3. Guess my game count will not be going above 5 though.

It would be good of you to take a stand on this. It shows moral fibre and that you're willing to forego fun in the name of a cause.

Personally I'm more focused on enjoying my console and the games that are coming out, so I can't join you in that. But you go, man. Good on ya.

Henroid · April 2010

I understand that when you buy a console you're more or less agreeing to play by the company's rules, but it seems to me that allowing some level of control on the user end has been the way to go. This is unsporting. I don't know how likely it is that it will affect someone like me who doesn't mod their console in any way. But it just makes me a tad paranoid.

amnesiasoft · April 2010

Threepio wrote: »

Personally I'm more focused on enjoying my console and the games that are coming out, so I can't join you in that. But you go, man. Good on ya.

I've got a fully functional PC and 360. I'm not at a loss for good games.

Gentlemanne · April 2010

So out of interest, what happens when you update with a Linux partition on the drive? does it just get formatted away?

Not updated yet as I do not want to loose anything I have on my Linux side.

-Loki- · April 2010

They're just trying to keep the console secure. I mean, they're not going to turn around and remove media server streaming just, you know, because they hate us and don't want us to buy more of their products.

Seeing that they removed the Other OS option before geohot managed to 'hack' the console (since Slims were shipped without the option), they probably found the fault before he did, and decided to remove it from all consoles after he announced his hack. I wouldn't be surprised if they were trying to fix it before he found the flaw, but just went on the side of console security instead of risking hacked consoles before they could fix it.

Threepio · April 2010

amnesiasoft wrote: »

Threepio wrote: »

Personally I'm more focused on enjoying my console and the games that are coming out, so I can't join you in that. But you go, man. Good on ya.

I've got a fully functional PC and 360. I'm not at a loss for good games.

I salute you, sir. You're a better man than I.

So... who's looking forward to playing Mod Nation Racers online?

-Loki- · April 2010

Threepio wrote: »

So... who's looking forward to playing Mod Nation Racers online?

More looking forward to Gran Turismo 5 online.

Henroid · April 2010

Gentlemanne wrote: »

So out of interest, what happens when you update with a Linux partition on the drive? does it just get formatted away?

Not updated yet as I do not want to loose anything I have on my Linux side.

It'd have to format your drive to get rid of a partition, right? Since partitions are established on completely wiped drives? So all your other shit would go away.

I guess this is where the confusion is. Because now instead of being obligated to say, "Hey you have shit on there we don't like and this update is going to wipe it, better backup your other stuff first," they can just do it. Maybe.

Pata · April 2010

Welp.

Never updating the PS3 ever again.

Sorry PSN games. Looks like you're out.

Penny Arcade

OtherOS fallout, Sony's changed the EULA now. It's not good. [Page 8]

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