Our new Indie Games subforum is now open for business in G&T. Go and check it out, you might land a code for a free game. If you're developing an indie game and want to post about it, follow these directions. If you don't, he'll break your legs! Hahaha! Seriously though.
Our rules have been updated and given their own forum. Go and look at them! They are nice, and there may be new ones that you didn't know about! Hooray for rules! Hooray for The System! Hooray for Conforming!

The Tragic Death of the Western [Anime Industry]

15681011

Posts

  • MorninglordMorninglord Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    mrt144 wrote: »
    Man why can't they remove every trace of japanese culture from my cartoons. I don't see why I should have to put up with this shit. They can speak english like normal people. /sarcasm

    I've always seen these complaints as thinly veiled ethnocentricsm. It's pretty offensive. If it aint good american english fuck off am I right?

    I have no time or respect for that viewpoint. Zero.

    It's more a criticism of weeaboo who try and be something they aren't and fail at it spectacular. And I fail to see how taking out honorifics to preserve the integrity of japanese culture at the threat of pasty white nerds is disrespectful in the least.

    Weeaboo is one of those socially acceptable punching bag stereotypes invented so that people can still feel good about putting down others. Much easier to hate if you can pretend you understand a person by slapping a convenient label on them.

    If you are expecting me to go "oh right weaboos hah carry on then" you might want to take a step back. I fucking hate mindless stereotyping.

    Location: Sydney, Australia
    My Dark Souls 2 Diary Day 6 and 7 Updated
    (PSN: Morninglord) (Steam: Morninglord) (WiiU: Morninglord22) I like to record and toss up a lot of random gaming videos here.
  • LanlaornLanlaorn Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    It's more a criticism of weeaboo who try and be something they aren't and fail at it spectacular. And I fail to see how taking out honorifics to preserve the integrity of japanese culture at the threat of pasty white nerds is disrespectful in the least.

    Should we edit hip hop songs to preserve the integrity of black culture at the threat of the past white, well they're not nerds.. uh, suburban thugs?

    Edit: Decided this called for an illustration

    215548996_cdCeq-L-2.jpg

  • mrt144mrt144 King of the Numbernames Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    mrt144 wrote: »
    Man why can't they remove every trace of japanese culture from my cartoons. I don't see why I should have to put up with this shit. They can speak english like normal people. /sarcasm

    I've always seen these complaints as thinly veiled ethnocentricsm. It's pretty offensive. If it aint good american english fuck off am I right?

    I have no time or respect for that viewpoint. Zero.

    It's more a criticism of weeaboo who try and be something they aren't and fail at it spectacular. And I fail to see how taking out honorifics to preserve the integrity of japanese culture at the threat of pasty white nerds is disrespectful in the least.

    Weeaboo is one of those socially acceptable punching bag stereotypes invented so that people can still feel good about putting down others. Much easier to hate if you can pretend you understand a person by slapping a convenient label on them.

    If you are expecting me to go "oh right weaboos hah carry on then" you might want to take a step back. I fucking hate mindless stereotyping.

    I'm sorry, it's not a stereotype. They do exist. I've been around them. People using honorifics inappropriately because they're ignorant of another culture is far more damaging than someone wishing they never were there in the first place because they're butchered by ignorance.

    And what don't you hate? You seem to have your knickers in a twist about me saying that the pervasive culture of anime enthusiasts might marginalize its viability in mainstream American culture. When a culture celebrates 12 year old girls wearing next to nothing, and are a small subset within a larger society that generally frowns on OVERT sexualization of minors, then tough titties if that's ethnocentricism.

  • mrt144mrt144 King of the Numbernames Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    Lanlaorn wrote: »
    It's more a criticism of weeaboo who try and be something they aren't and fail at it spectacular. And I fail to see how taking out honorifics to preserve the integrity of japanese culture at the threat of pasty white nerds is disrespectful in the least.

    Should we edit hip hop songs to preserve the integrity of black culture at the threat of the past white, well they're not nerds.. uh, suburban thugs?

    Edit: Decided this called for an illustration

    215548996_cdCeq-L-2.jpg

    Aren't the people who do that (white people that appropriate black culture) marginalized already? No edit needed.

    I'm pretty sure theres not enough Japanese people around who give enough of a fuck about the improper use of language and honorifics to call weeaboo out.

  • LanlaornLanlaorn Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    mrt144 wrote: »
    mrt144 wrote: »
    Man why can't they remove every trace of japanese culture from my cartoons. I don't see why I should have to put up with this shit. They can speak english like normal people. /sarcasm

    I've always seen these complaints as thinly veiled ethnocentricsm. It's pretty offensive. If it aint good american english fuck off am I right?

    I have no time or respect for that viewpoint. Zero.

    It's more a criticism of weeaboo who try and be something they aren't and fail at it spectacular. And I fail to see how taking out honorifics to preserve the integrity of japanese culture at the threat of pasty white nerds is disrespectful in the least.

    Weeaboo is one of those socially acceptable punching bag stereotypes invented so that people can still feel good about putting down others. Much easier to hate if you can pretend you understand a person by slapping a convenient label on them.

    If you are expecting me to go "oh right weaboos hah carry on then" you might want to take a step back. I fucking hate mindless stereotyping.

    I'm sorry, it's not a stereotype. They do exist. I've been around them. People using honorifics inappropriately because they're ignorant of another culture is far more damaging than someone wishing they never were there in the first place because they're butchered by ignorance.

    And what don't you hate? You seem to have your knickers in a twist about me saying that the pervasive culture of anime enthusiasts might marginalize its viability in mainstream American culture. When a culture celebrates 12 year old girls wearing next to nothing, and are a small subset within a larger society that generally frowns on OVERT sexualization of minors, then tough titties if that's ethnocentricism.

    Are you fucking serious? You've got to be kidding with this. Here, let me extend my "white suburban kids talking like ghetto thugs" analogy to replicate this reply in that context:
    I'm sorry, it's not a stereotype. They do exist. I've been around them. People using ghetto slang inappropriately because they're ignorant of another culture is far more damaging than someone wishing they never were there in the first place because they're butchered by ignorance.

    And what don't you hate? You seem to have your knickers in a twist about me saying that the pervasive culture of hip hop enthusiasts might marginalize its viability in mainstream American culture. When a culture celebrates criminal lifestyles, and are a small subset within a larger society that generally frowns on OVERT crime, then tough titties if that's ethnocentricism.

    Look, people like things that I, or you, may not like. They sometimes emulate the things they like. No one cares if you think that's an abomination, it happens. And, to bring my analogy to a close, I don't think the presence of "whiggers" has had much effect on the popularity of hip hop so I doubt "weeabos" or the "wapanese" are hurting anime.

    Edit:
    Aren't the people who do that (white people that appropriate black culture) marginalized already? No edit needed.

    The point is, they're not actually affecting CD sales and you'd be insane to recommend editting out slang from hip hop so that they don't recreate it. I posit that similarly those emulating japanese customs are not affecting DVD sales.

  • mrt144mrt144 King of the Numbernames Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    Lanlaorn wrote: »
    mrt144 wrote: »
    mrt144 wrote: »
    Man why can't they remove every trace of japanese culture from my cartoons. I don't see why I should have to put up with this shit. They can speak english like normal people. /sarcasm

    I've always seen these complaints as thinly veiled ethnocentricsm. It's pretty offensive. If it aint good american english fuck off am I right?

    I have no time or respect for that viewpoint. Zero.

    It's more a criticism of weeaboo who try and be something they aren't and fail at it spectacular. And I fail to see how taking out honorifics to preserve the integrity of japanese culture at the threat of pasty white nerds is disrespectful in the least.

    Weeaboo is one of those socially acceptable punching bag stereotypes invented so that people can still feel good about putting down others. Much easier to hate if you can pretend you understand a person by slapping a convenient label on them.

    If you are expecting me to go "oh right weaboos hah carry on then" you might want to take a step back. I fucking hate mindless stereotyping.

    I'm sorry, it's not a stereotype. They do exist. I've been around them. People using honorifics inappropriately because they're ignorant of another culture is far more damaging than someone wishing they never were there in the first place because they're butchered by ignorance.

    And what don't you hate? You seem to have your knickers in a twist about me saying that the pervasive culture of anime enthusiasts might marginalize its viability in mainstream American culture. When a culture celebrates 12 year old girls wearing next to nothing, and are a small subset within a larger society that generally frowns on OVERT sexualization of minors, then tough titties if that's ethnocentricism.

    Are you fucking serious? You've got to be kidding with this. Here, let me extend my "white suburban kids talking like ghetto thugs" analogy to replicate this reply in that context:
    I'm sorry, it's not a stereotype. They do exist. I've been around them. People using ghetto slang inappropriately because they're ignorant of another culture is far more damaging than someone wishing they never were there in the first place because they're butchered by ignorance.

    And what don't you hate? You seem to have your knickers in a twist about me saying that the pervasive culture of hip hop enthusiasts might marginalize its viability in mainstream American culture. When a culture celebrates criminal lifestyles, and are a small subset within a larger society that generally frowns on OVERT crime, then tough titties if that's ethnocentricism.

    Look, people like things that I, or you, may not like. They sometimes emulate the things they like. No one cares if you think that's an abomination, it happens. And, to bring my analogy to a close, I don't think the presence of "whiggers" has had much effect on the popularity of hip hop so I doubt "weeabos" or the "wapanese" are hurting anime.

    Because I need to say it again...Sakuracon causes a severely negative reaction to anime on anyone not attending. I am not making this up. Many of my coworkers gawked and laughed but also were driven up the wall by the scantly clad preteens and the leering adult conventioneers. This is as much an issue about image as it is about reality. The hip hop analogy fails because the demographic makeup of hip hop listeners is not solely, mostly, or a significant portio of "whiggers" (and if it were I think you'd see a much harsher negative connotation to hip hop than current). I'm not so sure about anime viewer demographics being so heterogeneous.

    In respects to your edit;

    I'm saying that it's a secondary effect. It doesn't directly impact current DVD sales but the negative connotations might be a limiting factor on the ability of anime to penetrate american culture. Seriously, I don't get why that is such an absurd idea. I like some anime but I don't discuss it with many people, especially those self professed to be into anime because it's annoying to me.

  • LanlaornLanlaorn Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    Because I need to say it again...Sakuracon causes a severely negative reaction to anime on anyone not attending. I am not making this up. Many of my coworkers gawked and laughed but also were driven up the wall by the scantly clad preteens and the leering adult conventioneers. This is as much an issue about image as it is about reality. The hip hop analogy fails because the demographic makeup of hip hop listeners is not solely, mostly, or a significant portio of "whiggers" (and if it were I think you'd see a much harsher negative connotation to hip hop than current). I'm not so sure about anime viewer demographics being so heterogeneous.

    You think all, most or a significant portion of anime fans are "weeabo"s? I sincerely doubt that.

    Oh and I don't think your coworkers opinions are really worth much, I doubt they'd approve of the dress and behavior of people attending a rap concert either.
    I'm saying that it's a secondary effect. It doesn't directly impact current DVD sales but the negative connotations might be a limiting factor on the ability of anime to penetrate american culture. Seriously, I don't get why that is such an absurd idea. I like some anime but I don't discuss it with many people, especially those self professed to be into anime because it's annoying to me.

    Well I'm saying there's a precedent for it being absurd. Also the mileage I'm getting from this analogy is ridiculous because I like some rap, but I don't discuss it with many people, especially those self professed to be into rap.

  • mrt144mrt144 King of the Numbernames Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    Lanlaorn wrote: »
    Because I need to say it again...Sakuracon causes a severely negative reaction to anime on anyone not attending. I am not making this up. Many of my coworkers gawked and laughed but also were driven up the wall by the scantly clad preteens and the leering adult conventioneers. This is as much an issue about image as it is about reality. The hip hop analogy fails because the demographic makeup of hip hop listeners is not solely, mostly, or a significant portio of "whiggers" (and if it were I think you'd see a much harsher negative connotation to hip hop than current). I'm not so sure about anime viewer demographics being so heterogeneous.

    You think all, most or a significant portion of anime fans are "weeabo"s? I sincerely doubt that.

    The most visable ones are. That's the rub. That was the rub with Trekkie until they made a passable Star Trek action movie (which incidentally, Trekkies hated). Anime needs a PR makeover.

  • emnmnmeemnmnme Heard about this on conservative radio:Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    Are there any anime shows airing on American TV during the evening? I know the SyFy Channel ran mediocre anime movies on Monday Nights but I never watched them. I'd be more interested in TV series like Full Metal Alchemist during the Adult Swim lineup.

    easybossfight_zps4752c132.gif
  • mrt144mrt144 King of the Numbernames Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    Lanlaorn wrote: »
    Because I need to say it again...Sakuracon causes a severely negative reaction to anime on anyone not attending. I am not making this up. Many of my coworkers gawked and laughed but also were driven up the wall by the scantly clad preteens and the leering adult conventioneers. This is as much an issue about image as it is about reality. The hip hop analogy fails because the demographic makeup of hip hop listeners is not solely, mostly, or a significant portio of "whiggers" (and if it were I think you'd see a much harsher negative connotation to hip hop than current). I'm not so sure about anime viewer demographics being so heterogeneous.

    You think all, most or a significant portion of anime fans are "weeabo"s? I sincerely doubt that.

    Oh and I don't think your coworkers opinions are really worth much, I doubt they'd approve of the dress and behavior of people attending a rap concert either.

    They have kids. They purchase what their kids watch. It makes an impact long term.

  • SynthesisSynthesis Honda Today! Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    Lanlaorn wrote: »
    Honestly, Evangelion is not for me (beyond cool scenes like the use of the positron gun and some of the slicker angel fights), but I can appreciate why it could appeal to people with their own troubles.

    That's just insulting, I think DBZ is bad but I'm not going to insinuate that it only appeals to people who are equal parts retards and psychopaths.

    I don't care if you guys enjoyed it or not, I realize it's not for everyone, but NGE had characters with doubts, fears and even nervous breakdowns that are reasonable given the crazy shit going on around them and their fucked up pasts. Most anime protagonists aren't even close in depth. As for relating to it, I think it's easier to identify with the guy who's awkward and lonely than a suave, hip badass like Spike Spiegel, despite how cool it would be to be like him.

    Easy there. I'm sorry if I gave the impression, but it wasn't my intent to make it sound like "only people who feel isolated by society will like Evangelion", nor was I saying people with "troubles" were all retards and psychopaths. Those are your words.

    What I was saying was that I think the show had a particular resonance with people unhappy with certain aspects of their lives, such as those addressed by the main characters. I could be wrong, but I'm basing this purely on my own observations.

    Seriously, calm down for a second. There's a reason I didn't say "NGE is only for the crazies". I personally don't really like the show anymore, but to be fair, I dislike most Gainax shows (Nadia, Gunbuster, and FLCL being exceptions, I guess).

    I don't dislike depth in characters, on the contrary, I greatly enjoy it, which is why Stand Alone Complex's two seasons are probably among my favorite shows to this date.

    Orca wrote: »
    Synthesis wrote:
    Isn't "Your sarcasm makes me wet," the highest compliment an Abh can pay a human?

    Only if said Abh is a member of the nobility.
  • LockedOnTargetLockedOnTarget Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    Bioptic wrote: »
    Pi-r8 wrote: »
    OtakuD00D wrote: »
    Don't even get me started on fansubs. Such a horrible topic to touch upon. For those who don't know how bad it gets, check out Otaking's fansub documentary on Youtube. It's good stuff. That said, someone did make a point earlier here that fansubs aren't something outsiders would really easily stumble upon. For the American audience, TV exposure is usually the first thing. Well, nowadays, it's slowly turning towards the internet, I suppose.
    So I started watching this documentary and uh... I really don't agree with his rant about the translation (or lack thereof) in fansub. The honorifics- how hard is it, really, to understand what sensei, san, and chan mean? I guess there's a few others but those are the more common ones. And there ISN'T an english equivalent for those, trying to translate them into english just makes things weird. The other kind of word is food words, where again, there really isn't an english word for it, so it's a lot easier to leave it as the japanese word. If you don't know what a particular kind of japanese food is, too bad, it really doesn't matter anyway.

    It's not a rice-ball, it's an eclair!

    It's not about understanding what honorifics mean, it's about properly translating the dialogue. The idea is to make the dialogue sound natural and flowing to the english viewer. That's what a proper translation dub should be doing. Honorifics are not part of english dialogue, aside from sensei, so in an english translation they shouldn't be there. Not every word needs to be translated literally, as long as the overall meaning of the dialogue is preserved. A smart translation job simply uses other words and/or context to convey the same idea. Some people act like honorifics are required to understand the relationships between characters, and I say that's bullshit. These same things can be determined through the context of the characters and events themselves. You don't need a magic word attached to the end of everyone's names to get it.

    As for food names, they should be kept japanese unless there's an actual english name for the same dish. When an english person eats a rice ball, it's still a rice ball.

    iYBQTfcwSi2EW.jpg
  • mrt144mrt144 King of the Numbernames Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    Bioptic wrote: »
    Pi-r8 wrote: »
    OtakuD00D wrote: »
    Don't even get me started on fansubs. Such a horrible topic to touch upon. For those who don't know how bad it gets, check out Otaking's fansub documentary on Youtube. It's good stuff. That said, someone did make a point earlier here that fansubs aren't something outsiders would really easily stumble upon. For the American audience, TV exposure is usually the first thing. Well, nowadays, it's slowly turning towards the internet, I suppose.
    So I started watching this documentary and uh... I really don't agree with his rant about the translation (or lack thereof) in fansub. The honorifics- how hard is it, really, to understand what sensei, san, and chan mean? I guess there's a few others but those are the more common ones. And there ISN'T an english equivalent for those, trying to translate them into english just makes things weird. The other kind of word is food words, where again, there really isn't an english word for it, so it's a lot easier to leave it as the japanese word. If you don't know what a particular kind of japanese food is, too bad, it really doesn't matter anyway.

    It's not a rice-ball, it's an eclair!

    It's not about understanding what honorifics mean, it's about properly translating the dialogue. The idea is to make the dialogue sound natural and flowing to the english viewer. That's what a proper translation dub should be doing. Honorifics are not part of english dialogue, aside from sensei, so in an english translation they shouldn't be there. Not every word needs to be translated literally, as long as the overall meaning of the dialogue is preserved. A smart translation job simply uses other words and/or context to convey the same idea. Some people act like honorifics are required to understand the relationships between characters, and I say that's bullshit. These same things can be determined through the context of the characters and events themselves. You don't need a magic word attached to the end of everyone's names to get it.

    As for food names, they should be kept japanese unless there's an actual english name for the same dish. When an english person eats a rice ball, it's still a rice ball.

    Stop being so ethnocentric, you cad!

  • SynthesisSynthesis Honda Today! Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    mrt144 wrote: »
    Bioptic wrote: »
    Pi-r8 wrote: »
    OtakuD00D wrote: »
    Don't even get me started on fansubs. Such a horrible topic to touch upon. For those who don't know how bad it gets, check out Otaking's fansub documentary on Youtube. It's good stuff. That said, someone did make a point earlier here that fansubs aren't something outsiders would really easily stumble upon. For the American audience, TV exposure is usually the first thing. Well, nowadays, it's slowly turning towards the internet, I suppose.
    So I started watching this documentary and uh... I really don't agree with his rant about the translation (or lack thereof) in fansub. The honorifics- how hard is it, really, to understand what sensei, san, and chan mean? I guess there's a few others but those are the more common ones. And there ISN'T an english equivalent for those, trying to translate them into english just makes things weird. The other kind of word is food words, where again, there really isn't an english word for it, so it's a lot easier to leave it as the japanese word. If you don't know what a particular kind of japanese food is, too bad, it really doesn't matter anyway.

    It's not a rice-ball, it's an eclair!

    It's not about understanding what honorifics mean, it's about properly translating the dialogue. The idea is to make the dialogue sound natural and flowing to the english viewer. That's what a proper translation dub should be doing. Honorifics are not part of english dialogue, aside from sensei, so in an english translation they shouldn't be there. Not every word needs to be translated literally, as long as the overall meaning of the dialogue is preserved. A smart translation job simply uses other words and/or context to convey the same idea. Some people act like honorifics are required to understand the relationships between characters, and I say that's bullshit. These same things can be determined through the context of the characters and events themselves. You don't need a magic word attached to the end of everyone's names to get it.

    As for food names, they should be kept japanese unless there's an actual english name for the same dish. When an english person eats a rice ball, it's still a rice ball.

    Stop being so ethnocentric, you cad!

    I'm not a purist--at least, I don't think I am--but I have to admit, reading subtitles usually gets me out of this whole predicament. Which is great, because I can't really think of a good solution either. That being said, I'm don't find seeing an honorific attached to the end of someone's name any more unusual than a title at the front of it.
    No one gives Gambit shit for throwing random French into his sentences.

    That's because he'll throw something at you

    and it will explode.

    Honestly, it's little things like that that make me laugh uncontrollably whenever I watch an X-Men cartoon. Well, that, and humor resulting from not being familiar with the cartoons, comics, or fandom in general.

    "Did that guy just speak French with a hilariously over-exaggerated accent? That shit is bananas!"

    Orca wrote: »
    Synthesis wrote:
    Isn't "Your sarcasm makes me wet," the highest compliment an Abh can pay a human?

    Only if said Abh is a member of the nobility.
  • KragunKragun Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    Man why can't they remove every trace of japanese culture from my cartoons. I don't see why I should have to put up with this shit. They can speak english like normal people. /sarcasm

    I've always seen these complaints as thinly veiled ethnocentricsm. It's pretty offensive. If it aint good american english fuck off am I right?

    I have no time or respect for that viewpoint. Zero.

    Oh man, I better tell the American Translators Association that we've had it all wrong this whole time! It was the fansubs who were right all along!

    I'm sure all the translators would love it when I tell them we should leave difficult concepts and puns in Japanese and just hand wave by leaving a footnote explaining it. You know, instead of doing our job. Translating.

    Look, the whole point of a translation is to make something accessible to an audience not familiar with the language. I really don't know what else to tell you.

    I'm okay with fansubs doing it because it's something they are doing on their own time for no pay. But when people take it as "This is how it should be" or "It's impossible to translate" it strikes a nerve.

  • LanlaornLanlaorn Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    I don't dislike depth in characters, on the contrary, I greatly enjoy it, which is why Stand Alone Complex's two seasons are probably among my favorite shows to this date.

    I love them as well, and I wasn't really angry so much as frustrated by the label I guess, "troubles" is pretty vague and I assumed too much.

  • SynthesisSynthesis Honda Today! Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    Lanlaorn wrote: »
    I don't dislike depth in characters, on the contrary, I greatly enjoy it, which is why Stand Alone Complex's two seasons are probably among my favorite shows to this date.

    I love them as well, and I wasn't really angry so much as frustrated by the label I guess, "troubles" is pretty vague and I assumed too much.

    I'm going to put my foot down here, and say that "troubles" is a completely reasonable way to describe the sort of conflicts and pressures that adolescents, among other people, face, alongside outside pressures.

    Now, the characters in Evangelion take it to an extreme (of course, it's a show where much of the human population is dead, there's a permanent summer, oh, and angelic monsters are trying to kill us all), and I'm pretty confident that, at the extreme, that can resonate with people who have actual (significantly less life-threatening) grievances and daily problems--i.e. troubles.

    Now, why HamHamJ hates Shinji with the burning passion of a million suns, I'm not sure. Back in the day (i.e. about a year ago), I used to have to explain about ten times my reasoning why Gurren Lagaan maybe wasn't the greatest gift bestowed onto man by God, unrivaled by life or the ability to rationalize, through His servants in Gainax, and why I, personally, didn't enjoy watching it after the first few episodes. Maybe it's kind of like that.

    Orca wrote: »
    Synthesis wrote:
    Isn't "Your sarcasm makes me wet," the highest compliment an Abh can pay a human?

    Only if said Abh is a member of the nobility.
  • IncenjucarIncenjucar QA Tester -> Game Producer Seattle, WARegistered User regular
    edited May 2010
    Isolating fanfolk makes them worse, not better. If you want to improve things, show up and -dilute- the issue. Be an example of a healthy enthusiast.

    freefallagentad_zps635a83ed.png
  • LanzLanz Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    I have just one word to say about this "Anime conventions/cosplay/other con things are killing the anime industry" business: Comic-Con.

    SEGATA SANSHIRO! LIVE AGAIN!
    Lanz.gif
  • HamHamJHamHamJ Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    Kragun wrote: »
    Man why can't they remove every trace of japanese culture from my cartoons. I don't see why I should have to put up with this shit. They can speak english like normal people. /sarcasm

    I've always seen these complaints as thinly veiled ethnocentricsm. It's pretty offensive. If it aint good american english fuck off am I right?

    I have no time or respect for that viewpoint. Zero.

    Oh man, I better tell the American Translators Association that we've had it all wrong this whole time! It was the fansubs who were right all along!

    I'm sure all the translators would love it when I tell them we should leave difficult concepts and puns in Japanese and just hand wave by leaving a footnote explaining it. You know, instead of doing our job. Translating.

    Look, the whole point of a translation is to make something accessible to an audience not familiar with the language. I really don't know what else to tell you.

    I'm okay with fansubs doing it because it's something they are doing on their own time for no pay. But when people take it as "This is how it should be" or "It's impossible to translate" it strikes a nerve.

    A translation should provide a bridge to get the reader from their own cultural mindset, to that of the work being translated. It should not whitewash away the cultural context of the original.

    So yeah, fansubs do a better job of that.
    Lanlaorn wrote: »
    As for relating to it, I think it's easier to identify with the guy who's awkward and lonely than a suave, hip badass like Spike Spiegel, despite how cool it would be to be like him.

    Why should you have to identify with them at all? I can't really identify with Tony Stark but Iron Man 2 was still one of the best damn movies ever.
    Synthesis wrote: »
    Now, why HamHamJ hates Shinji with the burning passion of a million suns, I'm not sure.

    I really can't explain it. Whenever he does anything or says anything it just makes me want to wring his scrawny little emo neck.

    While racing light mechs, your Urbanmech comes in second place, but only because it ran out of ammo.
  • mrt144mrt144 King of the Numbernames Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    HamHamJ wrote: »
    Lanlaorn wrote: »
    As for relating to it, I think it's easier to identify with the guy who's awkward and lonely than a suave, hip badass like Spike Spiegel, despite how cool it would be to be like him.

    Why should you have to identify with them at all? I can't really identify with Tony Stark but Iron Man 2 was still one of the best damn movies ever.
    Synthesis wrote: »
    Now, why HamHamJ hates Shinji with the burning passion of a million suns, I'm not sure.

    I really can't explain it. Whenever he does anything or says anything it just makes me want to wring his scrawny little emo neck.

    :lol: I think I found the problem. Yeah, yeah, I know...OPINIONS! but that's a pretty bold statement.

  • LanlaornLanlaorn Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    Why should you have to identify with them at all? I can't really identify with Tony Stark but Iron Man 2 was still one of the best damn movies ever.

    You don't have to, I love Cowboy Bebop, to reference my previous example, but it's a nice perk sometimes.

    I was just saying that the anxieties expressed in NGE are common compared to other rage/revenge/whatever emotions other protagonists go through in response to your "If I identified with them I'd kill myself" comment. IMO a lot of people can identify with it.

  • mrt144mrt144 King of the Numbernames Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    Lanlaorn wrote: »
    Why should you have to identify with them at all? I can't really identify with Tony Stark but Iron Man 2 was still one of the best damn movies ever.

    You don't have to, I love Cowboy Bebop, to reference my previous example, but it's a nice perk sometimes.

    I was just saying that the anxieties expressed in NGE are common compared to other rage/revenge/whatever emotions other protagonists go through in response to your "If I identified with them I'd kill myself" comment. IMO a lot of people can identify with it.

    It'd be like faulting 1950s rock and roll for being trite even though it was music that spoke to the genuine emotions of teenagers.

  • Irond WillIrond Will WARNING: NO HURTFUL COMMENTS, PLEASE!!!!! Cambridge. MASuper Moderator, Moderator mod
    edited May 2010
    Look: last chance guys

    stick to the business of the anime industry and not a discussion of your favorite japanimations or characters or stories or whatever.

    we do not have a general-purpose anime thread in this forum.

    Wqdwp8l.png
  • mrt144mrt144 King of the Numbernames Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    Irond Will wrote: »
    Look: last chance guys

    stick to the business of the anime industry and not a discussion of your favorite japanimations or characters or stories or whatever.

    we do not have a general-purpose anime thread in this forum.

    Is saying that weak story craft citing references to weak story craft, as a reason for an ailing business still talking shop or not?

  • Xenogears of BoreXenogears of Bore Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    Irond Will wrote: »
    Look: last chance guys

    stick to the business of the anime industry and not a discussion of your favorite japanimations or characters or stories or whatever.

    we do not have a general-purpose anime thread in this forum.

    Might as well lock it then as we've already gone over the whole story.

    Few to no tv deals+sources both legal and questionable legality online+very little fiscal responsibility during the boom times have basically turned domestic anime sales into a one man show who has been cherry picking the best licenses off of its fallen competitors and sustaining its niche quite well. I don't see any changes in the forseeable future; Funimation will lead, Viz will limp behind, Bandai will probably do just well enough to survive and new western releases will still trickle out at a much slower rate.

    3DS CODE: 3093-7068-3576
  • mrt144mrt144 King of the Numbernames Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    What can be done Xenogears. That'd make for more interesting conversation.

  • Irond WillIrond Will WARNING: NO HURTFUL COMMENTS, PLEASE!!!!! Cambridge. MASuper Moderator, Moderator mod
    edited May 2010
    mrt144 wrote: »
    Irond Will wrote: »
    Look: last chance guys

    stick to the business of the anime industry and not a discussion of your favorite japanimations or characters or stories or whatever.

    we do not have a general-purpose anime thread in this forum.

    Is saying that weak story craft citing references to weak story craft, as a reason for an ailing business still talking shop or not?

    i am saying to keep your examples direct and strictly topical to this particular subject.

    i mean maybe allowing this thread wasn't such a good idea in the first place.

    Wqdwp8l.png
  • Xenogears of BoreXenogears of Bore Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    mrt144 wrote: »
    What can be done Xenogears. That'd make for more interesting conversation.

    Right now? Nothing.

    Naruto couldn't succeed on afternoons or primetime on the US television home for anime. The second series has been relegated to Toon Disney. There are no current shows airing or recently finished airing in Japan that have any real chance of cracking the market; just tons and tons of little girl/giant beast cheaply animated garbage. Just be thankful that Adult Swim picked up Brotherhood.

    This is the list of currently airing successful anime in the US

    Brotherhood
    Pokemon
    Bleach
    Naruto

    That's it. The first is brand spanking new but had an amazingly successful sister show that aired five years ago, the second has been going on without stop for about twelve years, the third and fourth are moderately successful and only kind of successful, but are both showing their age.

    Worse still is that over the past six years or so Adult Swim has in fact been showing most of the cream of the anime crop and absolutely none of it stuck. Only show they could pick up now that would do them any good is Baccano which is currently legally free to watch on at least three different services.

    Here is the list of shows that tired and failed to make a hit in the US on Adult Swim and Sci Fi in the past five years or so.

    Gundam 00
    Code Geass
    Gurren Laggan
    Death Note
    Eureka Seven
    Morbito

    and those are only the bonafide absolute all time classics. The market is dead. They are going to try something on Nick with the recut DBZ Kai, but Nick has a pretty poor history with anime in the past 30 years.

    3DS CODE: 3093-7068-3576
  • mrt144mrt144 King of the Numbernames Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    mrt144 wrote: »
    What can be done Xenogears. That'd make for more interesting conversation.

    Right now? Nothing.

    Naruto couldn't succeed on afternoons or primetime on the US television home for anime. The second series has been relegated to Toon Disney. There are no current shows airing or recently finished airing in Japan that have any real chance of cracking the market; just tons and tons of little girl/giant beast cheaply animated garbage. Just be thankful that Adult Swim picked up Brotherhood.

    This is the list of currently airing successful anime in the US

    Brotherhood
    Pokemon
    Bleach
    Naruto

    That's it. The first is brand spanking new but had an amazingly successful sister show that aired five years ago, the second has been going on without stop for about twelve years, the third and fourth are moderately successful and only kind of successful, but are both showing their age.

    Worse still is that over the past six years or so Adult Swim has in fact been showing most of the cream of the anime crop and absolutely none of it stuck. Only show they could pick up now that would do them any good is Baccano which is currently legally free to watch on at least three different services.

    Here is the list of shows that tired and failed to make a hit in the US on Adult Swim and Sci Fi in the past five years or so.

    Gundam 00
    Code Geass
    Gurren Laggan
    Death Note
    Eureka Seven
    Morbito

    and those are only the bonafide absolute all time classics. The market is dead. They are going to try something on Nick with the recut DBZ Kai, but Nick has a pretty poor history with anime in the past 30 years.

    It's funny cause looking at those examples it boggles the mind that the rabidness of the few anime fans in the social circles I'm part of gives an impression of it being far more popular than it is.

  • LockedOnTargetLockedOnTarget Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    I let myself get off-topic when speaking of fansubs and translations, but I think it is at least a somewhat important topic when it comes to attracting fans to a show. I think a well-done translation/dub has a better chance of sucking in a new fan, and I think that as a whole anime still has a strong stigma of having weak english versions even though it's not really true nearly as often anymore. The absolute refusal of some anime fans to be welcoming to proper english translations hurts more than helps the overal reputation of the genre, IMO.

    iYBQTfcwSi2EW.jpg
  • AngelHedgieAngelHedgie Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    mrt144 wrote: »
    What can be done Xenogears. That'd make for more interesting conversation.

    Right now? Nothing.

    Naruto couldn't succeed on afternoons or primetime on the US television home for anime. The second series has been relegated to Toon Disney. There are no current shows airing or recently finished airing in Japan that have any real chance of cracking the market; just tons and tons of little girl/giant beast cheaply animated garbage. Just be thankful that Adult Swim picked up Brotherhood.

    This is the list of currently airing successful anime in the US

    Brotherhood
    Pokemon
    Bleach
    Naruto

    That's it. The first is brand spanking new but had an amazingly successful sister show that aired five years ago, the second has been going on without stop for about twelve years, the third and fourth are moderately successful and only kind of successful, but are both showing their age.

    Worse still is that over the past six years or so Adult Swim has in fact been showing most of the cream of the anime crop and absolutely none of it stuck. Only show they could pick up now that would do them any good is Baccano which is currently legally free to watch on at least three different services.

    Here is the list of shows that tired and failed to make a hit in the US on Adult Swim and Sci Fi in the past five years or so.

    Gundam 00
    Code Geass
    Gurren Laggan
    Death Note
    Eureka Seven
    Morbito

    and those are only the bonafide absolute all time classics. The market is dead. They are going to try something on Nick with the recut DBZ Kai, but Nick has a pretty poor history with anime in the past 30 years.
    First off, you forgot about Monster, which is currently airing. Second, what killed Naruto in the US was what almost killed it in Japan - it became Filler: The Series. And from what I understand, those seasons of animated Bondo were forced down CN's throat.

    Moreover, it's not that anime is dead, but that it's no longer unique. And you're starting to see the industry respond by going global. The Boondocks is an American property animated by a Japanese studio. Oban: Star Racer was done by a joint French - Japanese studio.

    I don't think it's dead. Just evolving.

    XBL: Nox Aeternum / PSN: NoxAeternum / NN:NoxAeternum
    Spoiler:
  • DanHibikiDanHibiki Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    Naruto and Bleach started strong but frankly after episode 30 or so people tend to not give a shit any more about it. It just drags on to no end.

    bar_zps02bac615.jpg
  • LockedOnTargetLockedOnTarget Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    Filler is definately a problem in some of the longer-running shows. Too much can kill interest in a series dead. Unfortunately, that's a problem with the japanese way of doing things and not really one with the western anime industry.

    iYBQTfcwSi2EW.jpg
  • Xenogears of BoreXenogears of Bore Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    mrt144 wrote: »
    What can be done Xenogears. That'd make for more interesting conversation.

    Right now? Nothing.

    Naruto couldn't succeed on afternoons or primetime on the US television home for anime. The second series has been relegated to Toon Disney. There are no current shows airing or recently finished airing in Japan that have any real chance of cracking the market; just tons and tons of little girl/giant beast cheaply animated garbage. Just be thankful that Adult Swim picked up Brotherhood.

    This is the list of currently airing successful anime in the US

    Brotherhood
    Pokemon
    Bleach
    Naruto

    That's it. The first is brand spanking new but had an amazingly successful sister show that aired five years ago, the second has been going on without stop for about twelve years, the third and fourth are moderately successful and only kind of successful, but are both showing their age.

    Worse still is that over the past six years or so Adult Swim has in fact been showing most of the cream of the anime crop and absolutely none of it stuck. Only show they could pick up now that would do them any good is Baccano which is currently legally free to watch on at least three different services.

    Here is the list of shows that tired and failed to make a hit in the US on Adult Swim and Sci Fi in the past five years or so.

    Gundam 00
    Code Geass
    Gurren Laggan
    Death Note
    Eureka Seven
    Morbito

    and those are only the bonafide absolute all time classics. The market is dead. They are going to try something on Nick with the recut DBZ Kai, but Nick has a pretty poor history with anime in the past 30 years.
    First off, you forgot about Monster, which is currently airing. Second, what killed Naruto in the US was what almost killed it in Japan - it became Filler: The Series.

    I haven't watched Sci Fi in awhile so I wouldn't be surprised that they put that on.

    On Naruto though the ratings didn't really fall very much between the end of the regular series and the filler. What really killed it was...CN not picking it up for another season! The DVD distributors were more than happy to skip the second season of filler and beyond and moving striaght to the the sequel show, but for whatever reason couldn't make the deal. When that fell through CN obviously decided to stop promoting the show.

    3DS CODE: 3093-7068-3576
  • TofystedethTofystedeth veni, veneri, vamoosi Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    Filler is definately a problem in some of the longer-running shows. Too much can kill interest in a series dead. Unfortunately, that's a problem with the japanese way of doing things and not really one with the western anime industry.

    It's a problem with making an anime of a manga that isn't finished.

    steam_sig.png
  • CantidoCantido Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    I'm trying to understand what constitutes Success and Failure for something that airs on Adult Swim. And can understand AS winning or losing, its the developer of the show I'm a little confused about.

    Take an example, oh I don't know, Samurai Champloo. It gets translated and put on AS weekly. AS would determine success through "ratings." The amount of viewers that they reveal down to a discrete number, which in turn leads to ad revenue. I suppose things that hurt it's chances is kids jumping straight to the fansub in response to buzz, then not watching it on AS. After all, unlike a super long series like Pokemon, Naruto and Bleach, they are down to 26 episodes or something. Each individual episode is "worth more," and there's less of a reason for someone to watch a rerun of it.

    But ultimately the show gets buzz and the show becomes known. I just finally caved and bought the Blu Ray set for about 40$ on Amazon. In the long term, retail becomes the name of the game for these shows, am I wrong?

    steam_sig.png
  • LockedOnTargetLockedOnTarget Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    Filler is definately a problem in some of the longer-running shows. Too much can kill interest in a series dead. Unfortunately, that's a problem with the japanese way of doing things and not really one with the western anime industry.

    It's a problem with making an anime of a manga that isn't finished.

    Yeah, the only two ways of avoiding this problem is to either wait until the manga is finished or to adopt a more western "season" system where there's a chunk of new episodes per year. Unfortunately, the west has no control over this, and japan doesn't seem interested in changing their methods to focus on show quality over quantitiy. So you end up with something like Naruto that stops the canon material suddenly and has over 80 filler episodes in a row. That absolutely DESTROYED my interest in purchasing the DVDs here, and has made me far less interested in even picking up the newer canon stuff. It's aggravating having to wait so long to get on with the actual story. I end up just watching something else.

    iYBQTfcwSi2EW.jpg
  • Xenogears of BoreXenogears of Bore Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    You know a limited run show was successful on AS if they.

    1. Run it a whole bunch.

    2. Pick it up for another few years of running.

    I don't think they've finished a second run of a show in quite a few years now. Maybe Paranoia Agent (because it is so damn short!)

    3DS CODE: 3093-7068-3576
  • DanHibikiDanHibiki Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    Cantido wrote: »
    I'm trying to understand what constitutes Success and Failure for something that airs on Adult Swim. And can understand AS winning or losing, its the developer of the show I'm a little confused about.

    Take an example, oh I don't know, Samurai Champloo. It gets translated and put on AS weekly. AS would determine success through "ratings." The amount of viewers that they reveal down to a discrete number, which in turn leads to ad revenue. I suppose things that hurt it's chances is kids jumping straight to the fansub in response to buzz, then not watching it on AS. After all, unlike a super long series like Pokemon, Naruto and Bleach, they are down to 26 episodes or something. Each individual episode is "worth more," and there's less of a reason for someone to watch a rerun of it.

    But ultimately the show gets buzz and the show becomes known. I just finally caved and bought the Blu Ray set for about 40$ on Amazon. In the long term, retail becomes the name of the game for these shows, am I wrong?
    well, how much would it cost to get all of, say, Naruto on blu ray?

    It's up to episode 200 by now I think.

    bar_zps02bac615.jpg
Sign In or Register to comment.