Nova_CI have the needThe need for speedRegistered Userregular
edited May 2010
As a note for people reading this threat thinking about manual transmissions, but intimidated by hill starts, some cars come with a "Hill Start Assist". I didn't even know they existed until I was doing test drives. Anyway, there's one in my Impreza and it's basically a kind of auto-brake that holds the car in place if you're trying to start in first on an incline, or reverse on a decline. It only lasts a couple seconds and doesn't prevent the car from moving in gear, but it basically means I never had a problem starting on an incline.
Now that I know how to work a manual, I can hill start without the assist, but it was a great help when I was first starting out.
Nova_C on
0
Options
Deebaseron my way to work in a suit and a tieAhhhh...come on fucking guyRegistered Userregular
edited May 2010
People use the hand brake for hill starts? I have literally never heard of this. I used to live in a very hilly area, drove a manual, and never backslid more than an inch or two.
I was under the impression that handbrake starts were the standard approach for starting off from an incline.
When did this change?
I've only used the handbrake method once that I can think of, when I was on a fairly steep incline on a gravel road with a cop behind me, in a RWD car. I didn't want to spray him with gravel, I really didn't want to roll into him, and policemen seem to have an annoying habit of really crawling up on your bumper. Other than extreme cases like this, I don't see a need for it. Just ease off the clutch until she starts to bog down, then quickly from the brake to gas. No problems!
Although, I think you guys are overstating the damage to the clutch from slipping it too much. It's not exactly the gentlest thing you can do, but its a pretty rare occasion that it's needed, unless you drive in Nepal or Switzerland or somewhere.
I actually had that happen to me. I was learning to drive and it was a standard. First time I had been taken out to drive it. I threw gravel on the cop who was right behind me on the incline and he pulled me over and gave me my first ticket. The best part was in court when the judge informed the cop he shouldn't have even written the ticket when I challenged it. That cop never did like me, which insn't good in a town of 1,000 with three cops.
As far as learning, I just drove every chance I got. Eventually using the clutch becomes second nature and driving an automatic transmission feels weird because you have nothing to do with your other foot.
I see a lot of comments that the synchros in the transmission will keep you from shifting to a gear that is too low and damaging your engine. Do not rely on that. I can drop from 5th to 2nd at 60+ mph all day in my car with a T-45 transmission, which uses synchros, and it will continue to do it until something breaks. I've owned multipl manual tranmission cars, all with synchronized transmissions (synchronized transmissions have been around a LONG time), and they all would downshift to anything other than first gear with no complaint at way too high of a speed for that gear.
Just pay attention to what you're doing. You'll learn what it feels like when the shifter is going where you want and will be able to catch it if you're going too far in one direction or the other (other than if you're racing and shifting as fast as you can or similar situations).
My best advice would be to not be afraid to let on the gas/let off the clutch really slowly when you're learning, particularly for the "from a stop to a go". It's the best way to really get a feel for transitioning smoothly and the mechanics of the whole thing.
honestly you are overthinking it. the hardest thing for begininers is getting into first gear. if you are driving a long distance you are really only going to be in like 2 gears the entire trip unless you get caught in traffic. at that point knowing how to get into first gear is important
The way I learned to drive a manual, I found a friend with a driveway that was on an incline and just sat on the hill trying to get into first with out rolling down the hill. Once you have that aspect under control the rest is pretty easy.
It's easy to forget you're driving a manual when you're cruising in top gear. Then you exit the highway to gas up and you notice you don't have much engine power and the revs are real low and maybe you feel some vibration, and that's cause you're in top gear but only going 35.
Happens to newbies and even to experienced stickers who also regularly drive automatics.
Djeet on
0
Options
FiggyFighter of the night manChampion of the sunRegistered Userregular
People use the hand brake for hill starts? I have literally never heard of this. I used to live in a very hilly area, drove a manual, and never backslid more than an inch or two.
Yeah, this. I'm not trying to sound like Captain Pro Standard Driver, but I've never once felt the need to resort to this method to prevent rolling back. Even when i was first learning to drive, the most I ever rolled back on a steep incline was 6 inches or so. Now that I've been driving for years, my car doesn't roll back at all.
I'd say you're better off learning how to drive properly than using your hand brake like this. The hand brake is intended to keep your car in place while parked, not while waiting the 10 seconds for a light to change. Besides, it's called a "Parking Brake" for a reason.
It's also not safe. When you engage the parking brake, it locks the wheels in a different fashion than if you just had your foot on the brake. If you were to be hit from behind with the parking brake on, your car is going to skid a lot further than if you had your foot on the regular brake. Your wheels are locked, and your anti-lock braking system is also functionally disabled.
Both of those problems you are experiencing are normal and go away after you spend some time repeating the motions and getting a "feel" for driving stick. After some time driving standard I've found that I can time shifts at the correct RPMs without using the clutch, it's just something you kind of adapt to after awhile. Just spend some more time getting familiar.
One major tip, don't drive with your foot on the clutch, take your foot completely off when you don't need it to shift as this puts pressure on the plates and causes your clutch to wear out faster.
Parking brake hill start is the method taught in formal driving instruction (at least in places outside the states, where driving instruction isn't a total joke); I think it's even in a couple of my vehicles operators manuals.
I never learned it that way (though drivers ed was all autos and was pretty pathetic really), but I don't live in a hilly area so it's never been an issue.
I don't know if Mazda Speed 3s have different clutches than the regular Mazda 3, but on the Speed 3 the transition between fully open and fully engaged is like 3 inches. Maybe this is what he means by "sticky?"
Just my 2 cents: I learned standard on a VW GTI. I bought my Mazda3 (also standard) 2 weeks after I started to learn. The Mazda has one of the easiest transmissions to learn on; the engine is very forgiving.
People use the hand brake for hill starts? I have literally never heard of this. I used to live in a very hilly area, drove a manual, and never backslid more than an inch or two.
Yeah, this. I'm not trying to sound like Captain Pro Standard Driver, but I've never once felt the need to resort to this method to prevent rolling back. Even when i was first learning to drive, the most I ever rolled back on a steep incline was 6 inches or so. Now that I've been driving for years, my car doesn't roll back at all.
I'd say you're better off learning how to drive properly than using your hand brake like this. The hand brake is intended to keep your car in place while parked, not while waiting the 10 seconds for a light to change. Besides, it's called a "Parking Brake" for a reason.
It's also not safe. When you engage the parking brake, it locks the wheels in a different fashion than if you just had your foot on the brake. If you were to be hit from behind with the parking brake on, your car is going to skid a lot further than if you had your foot on the regular brake. Your wheels are locked, and your anti-lock braking system is also functionally disabled.
Most parking brakes are a physical cable to the rear brakes that manually actuate them, usually with quite a bit less force than the hydraulic brake system. Applying the parking brake concurrently with the normal hydraulic brake can cause a severe imbalance in the braking force, especially when an ABS of some sort is trying to prevent or control a skid.
People use the hand brake for hill starts? I have literally never heard of this. I used to live in a very hilly area, drove a manual, and never backslid more than an inch or two.
Yeah, this. I'm not trying to sound like Captain Pro Standard Driver, but I've never once felt the need to resort to this method to prevent rolling back. Even when i was first learning to drive, the most I ever rolled back on a steep incline was 6 inches or so. Now that I've been driving for years, my car doesn't roll back at all.
I'd say you're better off learning how to drive properly than using your hand brake like this. The hand brake is intended to keep your car in place while parked, not while waiting the 10 seconds for a light to change. Besides, it's called a "Parking Brake" for a reason.
It's also not safe. When you engage the parking brake, it locks the wheels in a different fashion than if you just had your foot on the brake. If you were to be hit from behind with the parking brake on, your car is going to skid a lot further than if you had your foot on the regular brake. Your wheels are locked, and your anti-lock braking system is also functionally disabled.
Most parking brakes are a physical cable to the rear brakes that manually actuate them, usually with quite a bit less force than the hydraulic brake system. Applying the parking brake concurrently with the normal hydraulic brake can cause a severe imbalance in the braking force, especially when an ABS of some sort is trying to prevent or control a skid.
Rear discs will still actuate the regular pistons, rear drums use a cam to expand the shoes directly. I guess if you drove something with a driveshaft e-brake, it might get weird when hit, but otherwise I don't think it's a big deal. Especially compared to stopping on a flat surface, where I sit in neutral with no brakes applied at all.
As someone who drives standard at home and work, another important tidbit is that almost every standard vehicle shifts slightly differently from each other. Well, I shouldn't emphasize it too much, because it should be relatively obvious that a little 4-banger will be much more agile than an oversized delivery truck. But when you're comparing a Mazda 3 vs. a Toyata Corolla vs. Dodge Neon, they'll have different friction points, and the acceleration between gears will feel different.
Gas milage in city driving improves greatly by keeping your revs lower than higher (also should be intuitive), so after accelerating to the necessary speed, shift up a gear to get to a lower RPM, unless of course you shift and you're chugging. You're going cross-country, so I guess that's not a major concern.
I'm probably going to raise the ire of the more mechanically inclined here, but I'm going to suggest a tip that helped me get started way back when as I began learning to drive stick. Think of the clutch and the accelerator as the ends of a balance scale. If you want to be in full stop while in gear, the clutch needs all your weight onto it. If you're planning on moving forward you have to balance out how much gas you give it as you lift off the clutch. You feel that "catch point" that others have mentioned and then give it more gas as you continue to lift off the clutch. By the time you are moving forward fully, your foot should be 100% off the clutch and weight transferred to the accelerator. Shifting in-between gears follows the same process, just in more timely fashion.
Thanks for all the advice everyone! My sister is gone for the day so I won't be able to have another lesson today, but tomorrow I will most likely go for another spin.
I'm pretty sure the "stickiness" I was talking about earlier is completely due to my inexperience. Basically what I meant by it is I was having a little difficulty being able to determine if it was properly going into first gear or reverse from neutral when I was stopped. But obviously, if it is in first gear (or reverse) the car would start moving.
Its gonna be awesome when i actually know how to drive standard properly; I'll be able to take my Dad's BMW M Coupe for a spin 8-)
Also, its really awesome that I have my sister's car to learn on. No way in hell would i learn how to drive stick in the BMW.
So yeah, I'll probably have more input tomorrow!
Al_wat on
0
Options
FiggyFighter of the night manChampion of the sunRegistered Userregular
I'm pretty sure the "stickiness" I was talking about earlier is completely due to my inexperience. Basically what I meant by it is I was having a little difficulty being able to determine if it was properly going into first gear or reverse from neutral when I was stopped. But obviously, if it is in first gear (or reverse) the car would start moving.
You'll get the feel of the car eventually, where you'll know exactly whether it is in gear or not. Until then, just jiggle the stick. If it wobbles around like crazy, you're in neutral. If it's relatively firm in place, you're in gear.
One thing you don't want to do is just try taking your foot off the clutch. If you're in gear, you'll jolt forward and stall. Terrible for the car.
As a note for people reading this threat thinking about manual transmissions, but intimidated by hill starts, some cars come with a "Hill Start Assist". I didn't even know they existed until I was doing test drives. Anyway, there's one in my Impreza and it's basically a kind of auto-brake that holds the car in place if you're trying to start in first on an incline, or reverse on a decline. It only lasts a couple seconds and doesn't prevent the car from moving in gear, but it basically means I never had a problem starting on an incline.
As far as I know, Subaru are the only car company that has this system in their cars.
The hand brake is intended to keep your car in place while parked, not while waiting the 10 seconds for a light to change. Besides, it's called a "Parking Brake" for a reason.
Except it's not called a "parking brake", it's called a "handbrake" - because it's not quite the same thing as putting an auto into park. The handbrake is for any time you're stopped for more than a few seconds instead of holding it on the foot brake, or holding the clutch in.
nonsense
everyone knows the only reason handbrakes are on cars is for showing off mad drifting skillz
on a less sarcastic note, this thread has brought up some questions for me.
I drive a '96 Suzuki Esteem, 5-speed manual. When stopped at a red light on a slope, I've always sort of half-clutched and held the accelerator down far enough to prevent a rollback rather than stop entirely. I don't know if I'm describing that right, because my understanding is that doing anything with the clutch halfway in is bad news.
Also, during long braking (from 30+mph to a stop, for example) I usually just hold the clutch in the whole time and gently brake. I often wait until I'm slow/stopped to shift into whatever gear I'll need to continue onwards. As far as I know this isn't recommended because if you need to rapidly accelerate you can get caught in a high gear, but is otherwise acceptable. does that all make sense?
Molybdenum on
Steam: Cilantr0
3DS: 0447-9966-6178
0
Options
Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
As far as I know this isn't recommended because if you need to rapidly accelerate you can get caught in a high gear, but is otherwise acceptable. does that all make sense?
Why hold the clutch in? Why not just shift into neutral and give your clutch foot a rest? Its functionally the same thing as what you're doing.
i did used to do that. Now I downshift and match the revs as I'm doing so, to allow the car to slow itself down by engine braking rather than normal braking.
I'm not going to try to claim that it saves wear on the car, as its additional clutch use, but its much more fun and it feels cool to come to a complete stop without using the brake.
nonsense
on a less sarcastic note, this thread has brought up some questions for me.
I drive a '96 Suzuki Esteem, 5-speed manual. When stopped at a red light on a slope, I've always sort of half-clutched and held the accelerator down far enough to prevent a rollback rather than stop entirely. I don't know if I'm describing that right, because my understanding is that doing anything with the clutch halfway in is bad news.
Also, during long braking (from 30+mph to a stop, for example) I usually just hold the clutch in the whole time and gently brake. I often wait until I'm slow/stopped to shift into whatever gear I'll need to continue onwards. As far as I know this isn't recommended because if you need to rapidly accelerate you can get caught in a high gear, but is otherwise acceptable. does that all make sense?
If you're slipping the clutch on an inclined stop then you are holding position with a partially engaged transmission. What that means to me is that if the light goes green all you need to do is let off the clutch pedal and give gas to move forward, so you could get moving faster then if you were standing on the brake and in nuetral. But you are wearing the clutch while holding this position.
There's not really a right answer. If you do the partial engagement there's no doubt you could enter the intersection quicker. And if you were in nuetral and braked on an inclined stop you'd get less clutch wear.
As to whether you need to be in gear when slowing down, certainly I could envision an emergency situation where being in low gear would be advantageous so you could quickly accelerate out, around, or past an obstacle assuming it was safe to do so; this is a low probability situation though (in my 200,000+ miles of driving I've never been in it). The very large majority of emergency situations involve rapid deceleration, so being in gear usually is not an issue.
I'm definitely not the best manual transmission driver out there, but I'm pretty sure that my experience is the same as anyone else.
The car has a few basic rules, like making sure that if the clutch is engaged you're giving the engine gas, etc, and once you have those down, it's just a matter of driving it and keeping it going.
The most complicated thing I ever had to do in an manual was a rolling start in reverse after a stall.. now that's a lot to keep track of all at once.
Captain Vash on
0
Options
Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
I'm definitely not the best manual transmission driver out there, but I'm pretty sure that my experience is the same as anyone else.
The car has a few basic rules, like making sure that if the clutch is engaged you're giving the engine gas, etc, and once you have those down, it's just a matter of driving it and keeping it going.
The most complicated thing I ever had to do in an manual was a rolling start in reverse after a stall.. now that's a lot to keep track of all at once.
this is far from a rule
i'm struggling to think of a car I've driven where it wouldn't idle along in first gear as long as it had some gas to get it moving a little bit first.
Yeah, this. I'm not trying to sound like Captain Pro Standard Driver, but I've never once felt the need to resort to this method to prevent rolling back. Even when i was first learning to drive, the most I ever rolled back on a steep incline was 6 inches or so. Now that I've been driving for years, my car doesn't roll back at all.
You kind of are trying to, sugar! But anyway, this may be dependant on what car you're driving. The bite point on my clutch is waaaaay up top, and its just not physically possible to move your legs fast enough to not roll back. Handbrake = safe and sensible, particularly in heavy traffic when the retard behind you is 3" from your rear bumper.
I'd say you're better off learning how to drive properly than using your hand brake like this. The hand brake is intended to keep your car in place while parked, not while waiting the 10 seconds for a light to change. Besides, it's called a "Parking Brake" for a reason.
As someone else has pointed out, handbrake = properly. If you haven't been taught it, then sorry but your driving instructors sucked and you didn't get your money's worth. Its still only necessary on very steep hills, not whenever you stop, but it is needed.
Also, you don't seem to know how ABS works. The system pulses your brakes for you when you're stopping suddenly, giving you more control. It doesn't do shit when you're already stopped at the lights, and thus offers sweet FA in extra protection if someone runs up your arse.
nonsense
everyone knows the only reason handbrakes are on cars is for showing off mad drifting skillz
on a less sarcastic note, this thread has brought up some questions for me.
I drive a '96 Suzuki Esteem, 5-speed manual. When stopped at a red light on a slope, I've always sort of half-clutched and held the accelerator down far enough to prevent a rollback rather than stop entirely. I don't know if I'm describing that right, because my understanding is that doing anything with the clutch halfway in is bad news.
Not great for the machinery, but you can get away with it sometimes if you won't be doing it for ages. Slow queues running uphill to a roundabout, sure. At a red light that you know won't change for 3 minutes? Stop properly. Gives your feet a rest if nothing else.
Also, during long braking (from 30+mph to a stop, for example) I usually just hold the clutch in the whole time and gently brake. I often wait until I'm slow/stopped to shift into whatever gear I'll need to continue onwards. As far as I know this isn't recommended because if you need to rapidly accelerate you can get caught in a high gear, but is otherwise acceptable. does that all make sense?
Also not terrible, but yeah you've got more control if you downshift. Not that its hard to fix :P You'd fail a driving test here if you did it, but the instructors here get picky about what they call "clutch-coasting". General rule: if your clutch is in for more than three seconds, ur doin it rong.
Just don't think you have to downshift every time you slow; if you don't have the space or time then don't, say, try and cram the changes in super-fast. Stopping before you hit something is more important than your gears.
I only have one small thing to add, that I don't think has been said yet. I know it was mentioned that you should be in 2nd or maybe 3rd for most corners, but make sure you are in this gear *before* you get to the actual corner. Do not coast around the corner with your foot on the clutch then pop it into second when you go to pull away. You have a lot less control over the car when you are coasting. Slow down before the corner, shift, and go around the corner with your foot (lightly) on the gas. Not the brake, and not the clutch. (This is true for automatics as well. Do your breaking before the corner, don't steer with your foot on the brake; you have less control.)
However, a lot of learning to drive stick is just practice. Then more practice. Then some more. It's quite easy to read a book / ask for advice, and know all the theory to it, but you still have to actually DO it to learn. A lot of the whole 'smooth shifting' process is just muscle memory. The more you do it, the more your legs learn how to do it, and it no longer requires conscious thought. My car is a stick (Volvo s70) and I find that when I drive an automatic, my left foot is bored, and my right hand is always looking for the shifter when I'm stopped. I guess that's muscle memory too =P
As for the whole 'handbrake to start on a hill' debate... When I was learning to drive stick, I used it because I didn't want to roll into the guy behind me. You're not trying to drive away with the hand brake engaged, and you're not using it the entire time you're stopped (unless you were actually parked). Engage it when you're ready to go (with your right foot still on the brake), push in the clutch, put it in first, and then give it a little gas. All the handbrake does is keep the car from going backwards in the time your foot is between the brake and the gas. Give it a little gas, and you will feel the car want to go forward; release the hand brake and off you go. With practice, you will learn to get your foot from brake to gas fast enough to not roll back more than an inch. It helps while you're learning, and if you're taking the driving test for your licence (in Ontario at least) it's the 'proper' way to do it, it doesn't hurt the car any, but it's possible to learn to get going without it.
The hardest part of driving standard for beginners is having to stop while going uphill. You're going to roll back quite a bit until you get the hang of it. One thing you could do is give it a tiny bit of gas as you are letting off the clutch so that it won't stall as easily. Not too much, but just enough.
In that situation you really need to put on the handbrake. Get the revs up so you can feel it straining slightly against the brake then let it off. If you havn't mastered clutch control in a manual I wouldn't attempt a hill start on clutch control alone under any circumstances.
Don't you need to take a seperate test to be licenced to drive a manual car where you live?
Casual on
0
Options
Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
edited May 2010
It goes without saying that the people giving you the advice to not worry about hill starts are giving the world's worst advice for you specifically. In general, handbrake starts are a preference thing...doing it or not doing it is largely up to the driver... but if you haven't mastered clutch control it is _retarded_ not to use a handbrake start and you should just ignore those saying to not use it.
I'd say you're better off learning how to drive properly than using your hand brake like this. The hand brake is intended to keep your car in place while parked, not while waiting the 10 seconds for a light to change. Besides, it's called a "Parking Brake" for a reason.
I've only ever heard it called a parking brake in the US. It's "handbrake" everywhere else. I was of the opinion it only applied to automatics. When I drive manual, I was taught to engage the handbrake at every light rather than sit on my footbrake (which I hate hate hate about automatics). This way, if I'm rear-end shunted at an intersection, my car doesn't lurch into the road and cause me to get T-boned as well.
And yes, handbrake starts on hills too.
The handbrake is your friend, and another tool to help you drive better. It's not like some training wheels that you are supposed to graduate from when you become a "pro driver". The best drivers use all their tools when they would help. You should try using it.
Don't you need to take a seperate test to be licenced to drive a manual car where you live?
My understanding is, at least here in California, you don't.
It would be scary, if it wasn't for that fact that unlike mother Blighty, I can count on one hand the number of people I have seen driving a manual. I'm far more worried about idiots that eat dinner while driving. Or texting. See that all the time.
The hardest part of driving standard for beginners is having to stop while going uphill. You're going to roll back quite a bit until you get the hang of it. One thing you could do is give it a tiny bit of gas as you are letting off the clutch so that it won't stall as easily. Not too much, but just enough.
In that situation you really need to put on the handbrake. Get the revs up so you can feel it straining slightly against the brake then let it off. If you havn't mastered clutch control in a manual I wouldn't attempt a hill start on clutch control alone under any circumstances.
Don't you need to take a seperate test to be licenced to drive a manual car where you live?
A real driver will just let off the clutch enough to hold the car to give you enough time to accelerate. A true driver will also know that the parking brake is nothing more but a parking brake.
The hardest part of driving standard for beginners is having to stop while going uphill. You're going to roll back quite a bit until you get the hang of it. One thing you could do is give it a tiny bit of gas as you are letting off the clutch so that it won't stall as easily. Not too much, but just enough.
In that situation you really need to put on the handbrake. Get the revs up so you can feel it straining slightly against the brake then let it off. If you havn't mastered clutch control in a manual I wouldn't attempt a hill start on clutch control alone under any circumstances.
Don't you need to take a seperate test to be licenced to drive a manual car where you live?
A real driver will just let off the clutch enough to hold the car to give you enough time to accelerate. A true driver will also know that the parking brake is nothing more but a parking brake.
This is entirely unhelpful.
The OP is requesting some advice on improving his newly-acquired manual transmission skills. As it has been repeatedly described, the handbrake-assist is recommended practice for new drivers driving with a standard vehicle. The half-in-gear move may be handy for advanced drivers, but it will wear out your clutch relatively faster.
The hardest part of driving standard for beginners is having to stop while going uphill. You're going to roll back quite a bit until you get the hang of it. One thing you could do is give it a tiny bit of gas as you are letting off the clutch so that it won't stall as easily. Not too much, but just enough.
In that situation you really need to put on the handbrake. Get the revs up so you can feel it straining slightly against the brake then let it off. If you havn't mastered clutch control in a manual I wouldn't attempt a hill start on clutch control alone under any circumstances.
Don't you need to take a seperate test to be licenced to drive a manual car where you live?
A real driver will just let off the clutch enough to hold the car to give you enough time to accelerate. A true driver will also know that the parking brake is nothing more but a parking brake.
I'm sure being a "real driver" will be of great comfort to him when he rolls into the car behind because he hasn't mastered clutch control in a manual shift car. Real great advice there.
The hardest part of driving standard for beginners is having to stop while going uphill. You're going to roll back quite a bit until you get the hang of it. One thing you could do is give it a tiny bit of gas as you are letting off the clutch so that it won't stall as easily. Not too much, but just enough.
In that situation you really need to put on the handbrake. Get the revs up so you can feel it straining slightly against the brake then let it off. If you havn't mastered clutch control in a manual I wouldn't attempt a hill start on clutch control alone under any circumstances.
Don't you need to take a seperate test to be licenced to drive a manual car where you live?
A real driver will just let off the clutch enough to hold the car to give you enough time to accelerate. A true driver will also know that the parking brake is nothing more but a parking brake.
The lazy driver will downshift and coast to a stoplight so he never has to stop.
Posts
Now that I know how to work a manual, I can hill start without the assist, but it was a great help when I was first starting out.
I actually had that happen to me. I was learning to drive and it was a standard. First time I had been taken out to drive it. I threw gravel on the cop who was right behind me on the incline and he pulled me over and gave me my first ticket. The best part was in court when the judge informed the cop he shouldn't have even written the ticket when I challenged it. That cop never did like me, which insn't good in a town of 1,000 with three cops.
As far as learning, I just drove every chance I got. Eventually using the clutch becomes second nature and driving an automatic transmission feels weird because you have nothing to do with your other foot.
Just pay attention to what you're doing. You'll learn what it feels like when the shifter is going where you want and will be able to catch it if you're going too far in one direction or the other (other than if you're racing and shifting as fast as you can or similar situations).
http://www.standardshift.com/faq.html
Happens to newbies and even to experienced stickers who also regularly drive automatics.
Yeah, this. I'm not trying to sound like Captain Pro Standard Driver, but I've never once felt the need to resort to this method to prevent rolling back. Even when i was first learning to drive, the most I ever rolled back on a steep incline was 6 inches or so. Now that I've been driving for years, my car doesn't roll back at all.
I'd say you're better off learning how to drive properly than using your hand brake like this. The hand brake is intended to keep your car in place while parked, not while waiting the 10 seconds for a light to change. Besides, it's called a "Parking Brake" for a reason.
It's also not safe. When you engage the parking brake, it locks the wheels in a different fashion than if you just had your foot on the brake. If you were to be hit from behind with the parking brake on, your car is going to skid a lot further than if you had your foot on the regular brake. Your wheels are locked, and your anti-lock braking system is also functionally disabled.
One major tip, don't drive with your foot on the clutch, take your foot completely off when you don't need it to shift as this puts pressure on the plates and causes your clutch to wear out faster.
I never learned it that way (though drivers ed was all autos and was pretty pathetic really), but I don't live in a hilly area so it's never been an issue.
Most parking brakes are a physical cable to the rear brakes that manually actuate them, usually with quite a bit less force than the hydraulic brake system. Applying the parking brake concurrently with the normal hydraulic brake can cause a severe imbalance in the braking force, especially when an ABS of some sort is trying to prevent or control a skid.
Rear discs will still actuate the regular pistons, rear drums use a cam to expand the shoes directly. I guess if you drove something with a driveshaft e-brake, it might get weird when hit, but otherwise I don't think it's a big deal. Especially compared to stopping on a flat surface, where I sit in neutral with no brakes applied at all.
As someone who drives standard at home and work, another important tidbit is that almost every standard vehicle shifts slightly differently from each other. Well, I shouldn't emphasize it too much, because it should be relatively obvious that a little 4-banger will be much more agile than an oversized delivery truck. But when you're comparing a Mazda 3 vs. a Toyata Corolla vs. Dodge Neon, they'll have different friction points, and the acceleration between gears will feel different.
Gas milage in city driving improves greatly by keeping your revs lower than higher (also should be intuitive), so after accelerating to the necessary speed, shift up a gear to get to a lower RPM, unless of course you shift and you're chugging. You're going cross-country, so I guess that's not a major concern.
I'm probably going to raise the ire of the more mechanically inclined here, but I'm going to suggest a tip that helped me get started way back when as I began learning to drive stick. Think of the clutch and the accelerator as the ends of a balance scale. If you want to be in full stop while in gear, the clutch needs all your weight onto it. If you're planning on moving forward you have to balance out how much gas you give it as you lift off the clutch. You feel that "catch point" that others have mentioned and then give it more gas as you continue to lift off the clutch. By the time you are moving forward fully, your foot should be 100% off the clutch and weight transferred to the accelerator. Shifting in-between gears follows the same process, just in more timely fashion.
Mmmmm....toasty.
I'm pretty sure the "stickiness" I was talking about earlier is completely due to my inexperience. Basically what I meant by it is I was having a little difficulty being able to determine if it was properly going into first gear or reverse from neutral when I was stopped. But obviously, if it is in first gear (or reverse) the car would start moving.
Its gonna be awesome when i actually know how to drive standard properly; I'll be able to take my Dad's BMW M Coupe for a spin 8-)
Also, its really awesome that I have my sister's car to learn on. No way in hell would i learn how to drive stick in the BMW.
So yeah, I'll probably have more input tomorrow!
You'll get the feel of the car eventually, where you'll know exactly whether it is in gear or not. Until then, just jiggle the stick. If it wobbles around like crazy, you're in neutral. If it's relatively firm in place, you're in gear.
One thing you don't want to do is just try taking your foot off the clutch. If you're in gear, you'll jolt forward and stall. Terrible for the car.
As far as I know, Subaru are the only car company that has this system in their cars.
Except it's not called a "parking brake", it's called a "handbrake" - because it's not quite the same thing as putting an auto into park. The handbrake is for any time you're stopped for more than a few seconds instead of holding it on the foot brake, or holding the clutch in.
everyone knows the only reason handbrakes are on cars is for showing off mad drifting skillz
on a less sarcastic note, this thread has brought up some questions for me.
I drive a '96 Suzuki Esteem, 5-speed manual. When stopped at a red light on a slope, I've always sort of half-clutched and held the accelerator down far enough to prevent a rollback rather than stop entirely. I don't know if I'm describing that right, because my understanding is that doing anything with the clutch halfway in is bad news.
Also, during long braking (from 30+mph to a stop, for example) I usually just hold the clutch in the whole time and gently brake. I often wait until I'm slow/stopped to shift into whatever gear I'll need to continue onwards. As far as I know this isn't recommended because if you need to rapidly accelerate you can get caught in a high gear, but is otherwise acceptable. does that all make sense?
3DS: 0447-9966-6178
Why hold the clutch in? Why not just shift into neutral and give your clutch foot a rest? Its functionally the same thing as what you're doing.
i did used to do that. Now I downshift and match the revs as I'm doing so, to allow the car to slow itself down by engine braking rather than normal braking.
I'm not going to try to claim that it saves wear on the car, as its additional clutch use, but its much more fun and it feels cool to come to a complete stop without using the brake.
If you're slipping the clutch on an inclined stop then you are holding position with a partially engaged transmission. What that means to me is that if the light goes green all you need to do is let off the clutch pedal and give gas to move forward, so you could get moving faster then if you were standing on the brake and in nuetral. But you are wearing the clutch while holding this position.
There's not really a right answer. If you do the partial engagement there's no doubt you could enter the intersection quicker. And if you were in nuetral and braked on an inclined stop you'd get less clutch wear.
As to whether you need to be in gear when slowing down, certainly I could envision an emergency situation where being in low gear would be advantageous so you could quickly accelerate out, around, or past an obstacle assuming it was safe to do so; this is a low probability situation though (in my 200,000+ miles of driving I've never been in it). The very large majority of emergency situations involve rapid deceleration, so being in gear usually is not an issue.
The car has a few basic rules, like making sure that if the clutch is engaged you're giving the engine gas, etc, and once you have those down, it's just a matter of driving it and keeping it going.
The most complicated thing I ever had to do in an manual was a rolling start in reverse after a stall.. now that's a lot to keep track of all at once.
this is far from a rule
i'm struggling to think of a car I've driven where it wouldn't idle along in first gear as long as it had some gas to get it moving a little bit first.
You kind of are trying to, sugar! But anyway, this may be dependant on what car you're driving. The bite point on my clutch is waaaaay up top, and its just not physically possible to move your legs fast enough to not roll back. Handbrake = safe and sensible, particularly in heavy traffic when the retard behind you is 3" from your rear bumper.
As someone else has pointed out, handbrake = properly. If you haven't been taught it, then sorry but your driving instructors sucked and you didn't get your money's worth. Its still only necessary on very steep hills, not whenever you stop, but it is needed.
Also, you don't seem to know how ABS works. The system pulses your brakes for you when you're stopping suddenly, giving you more control. It doesn't do shit when you're already stopped at the lights, and thus offers sweet FA in extra protection if someone runs up your arse.
Not great for the machinery, but you can get away with it sometimes if you won't be doing it for ages. Slow queues running uphill to a roundabout, sure. At a red light that you know won't change for 3 minutes? Stop properly. Gives your feet a rest if nothing else.
Also not terrible, but yeah you've got more control if you downshift. Not that its hard to fix :P You'd fail a driving test here if you did it, but the instructors here get picky about what they call "clutch-coasting". General rule: if your clutch is in for more than three seconds, ur doin it rong.
Just don't think you have to downshift every time you slow; if you don't have the space or time then don't, say, try and cram the changes in super-fast. Stopping before you hit something is more important than your gears.
However, a lot of learning to drive stick is just practice. Then more practice. Then some more. It's quite easy to read a book / ask for advice, and know all the theory to it, but you still have to actually DO it to learn. A lot of the whole 'smooth shifting' process is just muscle memory. The more you do it, the more your legs learn how to do it, and it no longer requires conscious thought. My car is a stick (Volvo s70) and I find that when I drive an automatic, my left foot is bored, and my right hand is always looking for the shifter when I'm stopped. I guess that's muscle memory too =P
As for the whole 'handbrake to start on a hill' debate... When I was learning to drive stick, I used it because I didn't want to roll into the guy behind me. You're not trying to drive away with the hand brake engaged, and you're not using it the entire time you're stopped (unless you were actually parked). Engage it when you're ready to go (with your right foot still on the brake), push in the clutch, put it in first, and then give it a little gas. All the handbrake does is keep the car from going backwards in the time your foot is between the brake and the gas. Give it a little gas, and you will feel the car want to go forward; release the hand brake and off you go. With practice, you will learn to get your foot from brake to gas fast enough to not roll back more than an inch. It helps while you're learning, and if you're taking the driving test for your licence (in Ontario at least) it's the 'proper' way to do it, it doesn't hurt the car any, but it's possible to learn to get going without it.
In that situation you really need to put on the handbrake. Get the revs up so you can feel it straining slightly against the brake then let it off. If you havn't mastered clutch control in a manual I wouldn't attempt a hill start on clutch control alone under any circumstances.
Don't you need to take a seperate test to be licenced to drive a manual car where you live?
I've only ever heard it called a parking brake in the US. It's "handbrake" everywhere else. I was of the opinion it only applied to automatics. When I drive manual, I was taught to engage the handbrake at every light rather than sit on my footbrake (which I hate hate hate about automatics). This way, if I'm rear-end shunted at an intersection, my car doesn't lurch into the road and cause me to get T-boned as well.
And yes, handbrake starts on hills too.
The handbrake is your friend, and another tool to help you drive better. It's not like some training wheels that you are supposed to graduate from when you become a "pro driver". The best drivers use all their tools when they would help. You should try using it.
My understanding is, at least here in California, you don't.
It would be scary, if it wasn't for that fact that unlike mother Blighty, I can count on one hand the number of people I have seen driving a manual. I'm far more worried about idiots that eat dinner while driving. Or texting. See that all the time.
I don't think they do it anywhere in the US.
Having a stick shift is the best anti-theft device in the US.
Here in Winnipeg, it just means you're car's that much more fucked when the police find it smashed and abandoned.
A real driver will just let off the clutch enough to hold the car to give you enough time to accelerate. A true driver will also know that the parking brake is nothing more but a parking brake.
This is entirely unhelpful.
The OP is requesting some advice on improving his newly-acquired manual transmission skills. As it has been repeatedly described, the handbrake-assist is recommended practice for new drivers driving with a standard vehicle. The half-in-gear move may be handy for advanced drivers, but it will wear out your clutch relatively faster.
Mmmmm....toasty.
I'm sure being a "real driver" will be of great comfort to him when he rolls into the car behind because he hasn't mastered clutch control in a manual shift car. Real great advice there.
The lazy driver will downshift and coast to a stoplight so he never has to stop.